EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 12/28/2019 at 8:37 PM, John Butler said:

Paul,

Perhaps you ought to consider this.  John Gardos is not Harvey Oswald, the man killed at the Dallas Police Station.  If this is true and I have no reason to believe it is not then what happens to the Hungarian source for Lee Harvey Oswald.  If Lee Harvey Oswald is rejected as the son of Emil Gardos then all connections to the FBI document are severed.  Working under the theory false in one false in all the Tippit Call document can not be held as factual for anything, particularly any further assumptions about the Hungarian origins of Lee Harvey Oswald. 

I can not believe that the FBI did not know this.  They had been monitoring Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, Fred Blair, and Louis Weinstock for decades.  They all, except the Blairs, came to this country after the failed communist revolution in Hungary after 1919.  There are others who came in the same period such as J. Peters.  Peters and Gardos were suspected of being Russian agents in the NKVD.  So, what I am saying is I don't know why the FBI was so concerned about the document and classified as they did.  It should have been released with other crank calls.  But, wasn't.  So, we are back to phase 1 trying to figure out what's what with that document.   

I'd like to get Jim Hargrove's and John Armstrongs opinion of this.  Because, this does a great deal of damage to the origins of LHO as a Hungarian. 

John,

I reject completely your assertion "false in one, false in all." So do you! After all, the woman caller asserted that Gardos and his "son" (our "Oswald"/Harvey) were in Yorkville in the 1950's. That was impossible: Gardos was deported in 1949. Yet, you and I agree that although the woman did not have the right years, that by itself did not completely invalidate her call!

You have not understood what I have been arguing all along: the key to the FBI document was NOTin whether "Oswald"/Harvey was the biological son of Emil Gardos. Instead the importance of the FBI document was that it demonstrated some kind of relationship between Gardos and "Oswald"/Harvey, a relationship the FBI was desperate to hide!

It's entirely plausible to me that the "Oswald" killed by Jack Ruby in Dallas was Hungarian by birth. You and I agree that the way the FBI hot-potatoed the report of the mysterious woman's call to Mrs. Jack Tippit showed that the FBI was very, very concerned about this woman's information. 

Further, we know the FBI hid that information - they knew instantly that the woman was referring to Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. (By the way, it turns out that the highly suspicious asterisk over and the underlining of the name "Emile Kardos" on the report itself actually was done by the FBI, not John Armstrong! Someone at the FBI recognized the importance of that name immediately, and marked up the original copy!)

The FBI hid that information in two ways:

1. They corrupted Emil Gardos's name ("Emile Kardos"). They also corrupted the name of the publication with which Louis Weinstock was associated ("Woman's World"). 

2. The FBI then classified the report on this call to make sure the American public would never know of it.  And indeed, had Congress not changed the law in the 1990's, we would not know of it today! Even so, it took some real diligence on John Armstrong's part to dig it out of NARA twenty five years ago!

So what does this mean?

Well, if we are right that the FBI knew/feared there was something to the woman's claim, then our "Oswald" (Harvey), really was associated with Emil Gardos for a period in the 1940's in Yorkville. Further, we can reasonably conclude that the nature of that relationship was something that appeared familial and paternalistic to an outsider - the caller believed Gardos was the little boy's father. 

John, you and others have been speculating that somehow Emil Gardos's real flesh and blood son, John, might have been the boy (our "Oswald"/Harvey) to whom the woman referred. OK, that is your right to speculate.

However, as I pointed out weeks ago, that was mighty unlikely: it meant that Emil and Grace had to be willing to abandon their little son to the care of strangers in a country to which they could not easily return, if ever. The psychological implausibility of that scenario made it extremely, extremely unlikely. (Maybe not completely impossible, but so unlikely as to warrant severe skepticism.) Nonetheless, you and others were hot to pursue it. Fair enough. 

If John Gardos was indeed our "Oswald"/Harvey, then he was killed in Dallas in 1963. 

On the other hand, if John Gardos was not our "Oswald"/Harvey, then it would be entirely plausible that he would have accompanied his parents to Hungary in 1949 and lived there. Thanks in part to your tracking down Russ Geck, we now know that is exactly what did happen. Mrs. Russ Geck had a father, John Gardos. Mrs. Russ Geck's grandparents were Emil and Grace Gardos. Just as the 1966 FBI report stated (the one which the FBI had that bizarre reaction to a possible visit to the US by Grace Gardos and her little son), the son of Grace Gardos and Emil Gardos was very much alive and with his mother in 1966.

So, now we have two overwhelming pieces of evidence that little John Gardos absolutely could not have been "Oswald"/Harvey!

However, as I have now stated plainly many, many times, that does not invalidate the basic thrust of the woman caller's information, nor our suspicions of the FBI's reaction to that call!

After all, what was the deepest, darkest secret about the JFK assassination? That the accused dead patsy was NOT who all of officialdom claimed him to be! Unraveling his true identity would lead right into the national security state and probably straight to the ultimate sponsors of the assassination! No, come hell or high water, the killers and their abettors within and without the government would stop at nothing to hide that fact!

So, since "Oswald"/Harvey was NOT the biological son of Emil Gardos, then there is only one other possibility: Emil and Grace Gardos (and their real son, John) were his caretakers for a bit in Yorkville in the 1940's. The woman caller saw them together and made the natural (but wrong) assumption that our little boy "Oswald"/Harvey was their other son. 

Were Emil and Grace Gardos the type of folks who might have looked after a small boy WWII refugee/orphan from Hungary for a few months or longer in the mid 1940's in Yorkville? It seems possible to me.

But this is why Russ Geck's wife (what is her first name, again?) could be hugely important: she just might, might, might, have some stories passed from her father about her grandparents and their activities in Yorkville in the 1940's. And maybe, if we are incredibly lucky, some of those family stories might include something about the little boy from Hungary for whom they were foster parents for a bit.

But, John, please stop with the "false in one, false in all" nonsense. Not even you believe that.

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[John Butler]

Thanks Paul,

You have summed up the possibilities nicely.  But, don't lose patience things are progressing.  My email is jbutlers@bardstowncable.net.  Send me an email and we will discuss other possibilities. 

[Jim Hargrove]

While we’re waiting to see if Mr. Geck and his family can provide any more information on the possible “Oswald” link to Emil Gardos, I’d like to change the subject briefly and ask a question that has been bugging me for decades.  In a nutshell that question is, What was the Alice, Texas charade that took place in early October 1963 all about?

ALICE, TEXAS

It is one of the most obvious and well documented incidents of two Oswalds in evidence, but it never made a lick of sense since the Oswald (often seen with his family!) that appeared in and around Alice (nearly 400 miles south of Dallas) said none of the incriminating things we soon heard from the Oswald who made appearances at the Sports Drome rifle range and all those other spots around Dallas.  This Oswald merely appeared to be looking for a job.

For anyone who doesn’t recall the story of the Alice, Texas affair, here are the basic details:

The FBI and Warren Commission produced pretty convincing evidence that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was in Dallas on Oct. 3 and 4, 1963.   The evidence showed that “Oswald” filed an unemployment compensation claim at the Texas Employment Commission, 2210 Main St. in Dallas, on Thursday afternoon, October 3, and spent the night at the downtown Dallas YMCA.

On Friday, October 4, he applied for a job at the Padgett Printing Company and filed an application with the Jobco Employment Agency, both in Dallas.

Despite that, some 17 witnesses place “Oswald” (sometimes with his family) on those very same days looking for jobs in the broadcast radio business in and around Alice, Texas, some 400 miles south of Dallas.  On the evening of October 3, numerous witnesses saw “Oswald” at radio station KOPY in Alice, where he was told to return the next day to meet station manager and vice-president Sonny Stewart. 

According to multiple witnesses, he did return to station KOPY the next day, Oct. 4.  There was even an AP article about his visit:

When told there were no positions available at KOPY, “Oswald” asked if any other radio stations in the vicinity might be hiring, and he was told about station KBOP in Pleasanton, where he also appeared to speak with Dr. Ben Parker, who accurately described “Oswald” after the assassination.  In restaurants and elsewhere, many other witnesses saw “Oswald” in and around Alice and Pleasanton on Oct 3 and 4, 1963.

John Armstrong wrote, “Both the FBI and Warren Commission were aware that "Lee Harvey Oswald" could not have been in both Alice, Texas and Dallas, Texas on October 3rd and 4th at the same time. Chief Justice Earl Warren held up publication of the Warren Report until the FBI completed their "investigation" of the incident at Alice, Texas, because of potentially damaging political issues.” [H&L p. 710]

But no one has ever given a plausible explanation about why this stunt was performed.  Why?

For decades, the best write-up on that Alice, Texas incident has been Chris Courtwright’s fine article, 

Oswald in Aliceland? A Tale of Two Days: A Tale of Two Oswalds

[David Josephs]

20 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

So, since "Oswald"/Harvey was NOT the biological son of Emil Gardos, then there is only one other possibility: Emil and Grace Gardos (and their real son, John) were his caretakers for a bit in Yorkville in the 1940's. The woman caller saw them together and made the natural (but wrong) assumption that our little boy "Oswald"/Harvey was their other son.

Paul...

Take a moment and reread the FBI report...  there are 2 distinct parts being referenced here...

1. The man Ruby killed had a father and an uncle who were Hungarian Communists & THESE MEN lived at 77th and 2nd (I think the FBI changed this too... Yorkville is much more a real community at 87th and 2nd rather than 77th..
2. The call BEGINS TO SPEAK DIFFERENTLY... and mentions Emil, something about a brother-in-law, and WEINSTOCK. 

THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND (87^th?)
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS (GARDOS) AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW.

THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW

Where in this report do you see that EMILE KARDOS = OSWALD'S FATHER? or UNCLE?
... or that "FATHER" and "UNCLE" are related (many ways to have a father and uncle from different families)
... or that "UNCLE" is connected to "brother-in-law"...
WE are making these connections, not the report.   

There were MANY crackpot calls/reports written up by the FBI in the WCR and not hidden for 30 years, so unless this is one great subterfuge creating an amazingly strong red herring there ought to be some significance to this call beyond a crazy person calling....

Point being though, there are no specific connections being made in this report
Mrs. Tippit is the source for the idea the caller sees the JFK/Oswald report in the Norwalk Hour... but I don't see how that's possible from NYC... So how else could the caller have found the Norwalk Tippits?

Simply because SHE WAS AFRAID they may know her by name or know it was her if a "woman called the Tippits" again does not mean WE would know her name.  I mean what if this involved the KEATINGS who have generations of women named Margaret Keating...  and we can't overlook PIC's wife/mother's family are from Hungary living in Yorkville, or Robert's wife from simply being around and in the know....

We don't know about ANY connection other than Emil and Fred being Communists and related as brothers-in-law.

What do you suppose makes OSWALD stand out so much in this woman's mind that she would recognize a man as the boy she knew - or does she already know since NYC would have been filled with news about JFK and Oswald... and Oswald is a name that frightens her... (or at least the father and uncle's names do)

The "Group in NY plans to take over the government" reminds me of the FDR coup with the bankers and wall street captains... but that's in the 30's.
I doubt this "group" disappears.... and this is the same group which helped finance the Bolshevik Revolution (None Dare Call It Conspiracy) so supporting communism at home to sow seeds of chaos in order to maintain control is really not so far fetched....

Fresh sheet of BLANK paper ------ list the FACTS found in that report versus the speculation...  we can go from there

DJ 

(edit: the caller does not include little Oswald in her mention of where Father and Uncle lived... in Yorkville.  In fact, the report makes it sound as if Little Oswald was not there at all)

 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

OK - Facts and Speculation....   Emil could have simply been the man paying the FATHER and UNCLE...
It seems to me quite possible the big deal reason for hiding this away had more to do with the US CITIZEN GRACE BLAIR GARDOS than with Emil  (see below)*

 

Using these FACTS... what can be concluded about this woman and her call in regards to: Oswald, the Father/Uncle, a "brother-in-law", Wisconsin and Yorkville?

FACTS

·         Jack D Tippit is a married cartoonist in Westport CT

·         Call was about 11:30 am on “INSTANT DATE” – what does that mean?

·         Caller was a woman with an accent

·         Asked if Tippit related to Dallas Tippit

·         Mrs. T says “distantly related” to officer and asked her name

·         Could not give name – afraid of being killed

·         Caller was from NY

·         Caller had come “here” to avoid being traced (knows enough about long distance and local calls)

·         Caller requests nothing be said TO THE PRESS about a “woman calling” – they would know and kill her

(This not saying anything about the call to the PRESS thing… with the info offered what would the caller be assuming? – they would just sit on the info or call the FBI instead?)

·         Knows Oswald’s Father and Uncle WERE Hungarian Communists

·         Caller says Father and Uncle lived at 77^th and 2^nd in Yorkville. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkville,_Manhattan#/map/0 Yorkville slightly north
S: East 79^th / E: FDR Drive / N: 96^th / W: 3^rd Ave

·         Both unemployed – paid by the Communists to do Communist activities
(Helping to form Unions was primary activity)

·         Caller offers the name EMILE KARDOS (sic) Emil & Grace Gardos

·         Caller focuses on the term “Brother-in-law” repeating it but not defining it

·         Mrs. Tippit tries to find out who the brother-in-law is but woman just repeats the phrase

·         Caller says GARDOS head of the Communists

·         Caller says this NY Group has “charts and maps”

·         Caller mentions WEINSTOCK, editor of Worker’s World

·         Caller says group in NY plans to take over Government

·         Caller says “they” will deny it

·         Caller hangs up

·         FBI New Haven has no knowledge re: Father/Uncle residence or associates

SPECULATION
 

·         Call sounded local

·         Austrian/Germen and/or Spanish

·         Woman sounded mature

·         Mrs. Tippit mentions Norwalk Hour article about Tippit relatives

 

https://archive.org/stream/FBI-Operation-Solo/100-HQ-428091-Serial5842-5915_djvu.txt  

*TO : DIRECTOR, FBI (100-428091)

FROM: SAC, CHICAGO (134-46 Sub

Enclosed herewith for the Bureau are the original and three copies and f b$ New York one copy of a letterhead memorandum entitled, t !2BCF» W I ¥^r UNITED STATES CITIZEN RESIDING IN BUDAPEST, ^m M ^ ^ L^.

The information appearing in the enclosed letter-head memorandum was orally furnished on 10/15 and 18/66 by CG 5824rS* to SAs WALTER A. BQYLE. and RICHARD W, HANSEN

The enclosed letterhead memorandum is classified ? since unauthorized disclosure of the information set forth therein could reasonably Result in the identification of this source who is furnishing - information on the highest levels concerning the international communist movement, and thus adversely affecting the national, security In order to further protect the identity of this source, the enclosed Letterhead memorandum has been shown as being prepared at Washington, D.C.

(|?Bureau (Eqc>- 4) (RM)

1-New York <7100^134637) (Enc.^ 1) (Info) (RH)

RWH-MD17

 

================
In connection with the information set forth in the enclosed letterhead memorandum, CG 5824-S* advised that in regard to the negotiations concerning GRACE GARDOS* release, he had on HALUs instructions submitted a letter to the Central Committee of the Hungarian Socialist Workers Party (HS1VP) which was delivered to Z0LTA1T KOMOCSIN. In this letter it was noted that the CP, USA Was aware of problems in Hungary regarding hard currency and for this reason, i,£ necessary, was willing to lay out the money itself to cover GARDOS ' return to the U.S. Within an hour of the time this letter had been delivered, a response. " had come Tsack from the Central Committee of the HSWP authorizing GARDOS 1 release. The HSWP was, according to CG 582.4rS*, a little disturbed at HALL ' s intimation that "cheapness" and lack of funds on the part of the Hungarians had been, the cause for the long delay in handling this matter.

In Reply, Please Refer to File No. _______

 

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION  Washington, D. C.  October 24, 1966

GRACE GARDOS, UNITED STATES CITIZEN RESIDING IN BUDAPEST, HUNGARY. . .

 

A source, who has furnished reliable information in the past, during October, 1966, advised as follows;

In September, 1966, the Communist Party, USA (CP, USA) , through the cooperation of Zoltan Komocsin, a member of the Political Bureau, Central Committee, Hungarian Socialist Workers Party (HSWP) , made arrangements for Grace Gardos to be given permission. to return to the United States in order that she might work for the CP, USA in New York City » New York. Grace Gardos is a United States citizen who had gone to Hungary a number of years ago when her husband voluntarily accepted deportation from the United States.

Up to the present time, Grace Gardos has been acting as correspondent for "The Worker, " United States East Coast communist newspaper in Budapest . Her husband Emil is living in Budapest in a retired jstatus and on pension, / /frWs/^/  Gardos was scheduled to leave Budapest, Hungary, for the United States on approximately October 15, 1966, and was expected to arrive in the United States sometime around October 18, 1966.

In regard to Grace Gardos, it has been learned that she had not been particularly happy with her status in Hungary and there may be intent on her part at this time never to return to that country. This possible intent on the part of Gardos was not revealed by the CP, USA to the HSWP during negotiations with them. There was also some indication that Gardos, once she has returned to the United States, may make efforts for her son, who also resides in Budapest, to come to the United, States for possible permanent residence.

Edited December 31, 2019 by David Josephs

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Paul...

Take a moment and reread the FBI report...  there are 2 distinct parts being referenced here...

1. The man Ruby killed had a father and an uncle who were Hungarian Communists & THESE MEN lived at 77th and 2nd (I think the FBI changed this too... Yorkville is much more a real community at 87th and 2nd rather than 77th..
2. The call BEGINS TO SPEAK DIFFERENTLY... and mentions Emil, something about a brother-in-law, and WEINSTOCK. 

THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND (87^th?)
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS (GARDOS) AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW.

THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW

Where in this report do you see that EMILE KARDOS = OSWALD'S FATHER? or UNCLE?
... or that "FATHER" and "UNCLE" are related (many ways to have a father and uncle from different families)
... or that "UNCLE" is connected to "brother-in-law"...
WE are making these connections, not the report.   

There were MANY crackpot calls/reports written up by the FBI in the WCR and not hidden for 30 years, so unless this is one great subterfuge creating an amazingly strong red herring there ought to be some significance to this call beyond a crazy person calling....

Point being though, there are no specific connections being made in this report
Mrs. Tippit is the source for the idea the caller sees the JFK/Oswald report in the Norwalk Hour... but I don't see how that's possible from NYC... So how else could the caller have found the Norwalk Tippits?

Simply because SHE WAS AFRAID they may know her by name or know it was her if a "woman called the Tippits" again does not mean WE would know her name.  I mean what if this involved the KEATINGS who have generations of women named Margaret Keating...  and we can't overlook PIC's wife/mother's family are from Hungary living in Yorkville, or Robert's wife from simply being around and in the know....

We don't know about ANY connection other than Emil and Fred being Communists and related as brothers-in-law.

What do you suppose makes OSWALD stand out so much in this woman's mind that she would recognize a man as the boy she knew - or does she already know since NYC would have been filled with news about JFK and Oswald... and Oswald is a name that frightens her... (or at least the father and uncle's names do)

The "Group in NY plans to take over the government" reminds me of the FDR coup with the bankers and wall street captains... but that's in the 30's.
I doubt this "group" disappears.... and this is the same group which helped finance the Bolshevik Revolution (None Dare Call It Conspiracy) so supporting communism at home to sow seeds of chaos in order to maintain control is really not so far fetched....

Fresh sheet of BLANK paper ------ list the FACTS found in that report versus the speculation...  we can go from there

DJ 

(edit: the caller does not include little Oswald in her mention of where Father and Uncle lived... in Yorkville.  In fact, the report makes it sound as if Little Oswald was not there at all)

 

 

David, 

Let me see if I've got your gist here:

1.We should consider whether the woman caller did not connect Gardos and Blair as "Oswald's" father and uncle, but instead as two distinct pairs of men. 

Hmm. 

Well, she mentioned "Hungarians and Communists", and Gardos (both Hungarian and Communist) and Blair (Communist) fit. And she seemed to imply a connection between them and "Oswald's" father and uncle, but we have no explicit statement as to that, so your hypothesis is still (remotely) possible.

2. If the Gardos/Blair pair were distinct from "Oswald's" father and uncle, then it would seem that all four were Communist and three of the four were Hungarian. And therefore, little "Oswald" was Hungarian.

3. I agree that Margaret Keating is of interest as a possible "Marguerite" imposter. However, the only image we have of her simply does not fit. She's not our "Marguerite". So, unless the photographic record has been manipulated (possible), that's a dead end. 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/102795476/margaret-emma-keating

4. I am not so interested in how the woman caller came to know of Mrs. Jack Tippit (albeit, that is a good question)  as to why she made the call. Did she really believe the Hungarians and Communists were about to take over the government? Did she really think little "Oswald" (from Yorkville) was some sort of super-duper secret agent, upon whose marksmanship rested a giant conspiracy plotted by foreigners and Reds? If she was not referring to Hungarians and Communists as the "Group from New York" intending to take over the government, then who?

I don't know what she thought, but why didn't she call the authorities? Of whom was she so afraid? Hungarians and Communists in NYC in 1963?

 

5. I agree completely that the mystery of how this woman knew/believed that the Dallas "Oswald" was the same little boy whose father and uncle were NYC communists is something that we need to solve. I asked that same question weeks ago.

I posed that it would have been impossible for any outsider to look at the face of a 24-year old man and be certain that he was the same little boy she'd known from 15 years earlier. Yet, she was so certain that she made this frantic call to Mrs. Tippit and identified "Oswald" as the son of a Hungarian Communist who had once lived in Yorkville! 

That meant, I argued, that our caller could only have been certain about "Oswald's" identity if . . . she had known him when he used the name "Oswald". If she had known him as a boy under a different name, it would have been impossible for her many years later then to recognize him as "Oswald"!

I believe you tend to agree with my speculation that the 1940's connection between the little boy ("Oswald") and the real Lee Harvey Oswald could only have been made by someone who actually physically saw both boys. And that could only have been Edwin Ekdahl, the real Marguerite's third husband. When Ekdahl notified his contacts (formal or informal) in the national security apparatus about the apparent physical similarity between the two boys, the "Harvey" project was born. This had to be before Edwin and Marguerite split up in the summer of 1947 and divorced in 1948. 

This means that the name "Oswald" was given to the mysterious little Hungarian boy by 1947, if not by 1945. This means our woman caller knew him then. After the summer of 1947, our little "Oswald" was bopping around down south with the Marguerite imposter. 

(It's either that, or our "Oswald" was really named Oswald all along, and not only did he (somewhat) bear a physical resemblance to the real Lee Oswald, but he also had the same birth name?

No. In the real universe, that is not a possibility worth pursuing. Relying on such coincidences to explain the assassination of the president is beneath serious discussion . . .)

6.Thanks in part to John Butler's work, we can now say with certainty that little John Gardos was NOT our "Oswald" (Harvey.) If the caller was right that little "Oswald's" father and uncle were Hungarians in Yorkville (and I think that it is very likely that little "Oswald" did live there for a bit, although I agree the FBI report only implies that and does not explicitly state that), then it is entirely plausible to me that the Yorkville Hungarian community would have been abuzz in the 1940's about Emil Gardos's deportation.(Regardless of whether the woman caller believed that Emil Gardos was "Oswald's" father, or not.)

A older Yorkville Hungarian woman such as John Pic's mother-in-law, Margaret Fuhrman,  would be an excellent candidate for our mysterious woman caller in 1963. She may well have been vaguely aware of the "Harvey" project by 1952/53, and she plausibly could have assumed (wrongly) that "Oswald" was the biological son of Emil Gardos back in the mid '40's, before "Oswald" was placed with "Marguerite." 

Margaret Fuhrman would have had no specific knowledge about the missions in which the dual "Oswald" identities were used, and therefore might well have guessed wrong in a phone call in 1963, but she was right in her belief that the plot involved people once connected to the Yorkville Hungarian community. According to John Pic's sworn testimony, Margaret Pic and her husband had been living in Yorkville "a good many years" and maybe since the birth of their eldest daughter in 1924.

If Margaret Fuhrman was indeed the mysterious woman caller in 1963, then that would explain the absolutely bizarre series of questions posed to John Pic by WC attorney Albert Jenner at the beginning of Pic's testimony:

 Mr. JENNER. Give the full name of your wife including her married name, children, if any, ages and names and where born.

Mr. PIC. My wife’s maiden name is Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. My eldest is John Edward Pic, Jr., 14 May, 1952. My daughter, Janet Ann Pic, 18 October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960.

Mr. JENNER. Your wife Margaret is-she was born where?

Mr. PIC. New York City, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Her parents are native Americans as well as she?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; they are not.

Mr. JENNER. What do you know of them?

Mr. PIC. Her father died; I never met the man while we were going together. Her mother and father were separated. Her mother was born in Hungary, I think. Her father was also sir.

Mr. JENNER. What do you understand as to when they came to this country?

Mr. PIC. I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I have forgotten.

Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression they had been here a good many years?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her forties, I am pretty sure.

Mr. JENNER. I see. When you met your wife she was living with her mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, New York City.

Mr. JENNER And you were at that time in the service?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; U.S. Coast Guard, assigned to U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Rockaway.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Paul Jolliffe]

David wrote:

"Call was about 11:30 am on “INSTANT DATE” – what does that mean?"

 

According to Wikitionary, it is an old reference to the current month. I suspect our FBI memo writer misused it: he meant the current date (i.e. November 30, 1963.) I remember that Richard Case Nagell used "instant" in the same way in one of his notes to Dick Russell. It may have been more commonly used by men of that generation.

 

From Wikitionary:

Of the current month.

Synonym: inst. (abbreviation)

I refer to your letter of the 16th instant in regard to traffic disruption

 

[John Butler]

Russ Geck has responded to my latest email this way:

John, thank you so much for everything you have sent us. Andi (John Gardos's daughter) and I really appreciate it. Andi would like to offer to you any information you might be interested in. There are some incorrect things we saw in the documents you sent us.  For instance, Grace Blair did not reside in or die at the US embassy. She lived in the 13th District in Budapest (Andi can get the address from her mother) and died in a hospital. Andi says Grace and Emil had a picture of US president Jimmy Carter in their home. I know this is probably unimportant to your overall goal of establishing the fact that John Gardos, son of Emil Gardos and Grace Blair, was not, in fact, Lee Harvey Oswald, but if there's any bit of color we can add to that fact, we'd be happy to do so. Just tell us what you're interested in or what you need.  I can provide a photocopy of his US passport that was issued on August 6, 1992, his birth certificate, etc. If you have any information on when Emil Gardos left the US in fact, we would be greatly interested in that as well.

 

Thank you for contacting me regarding this. I hope we are able to put this conspiracy theory to rest. Best of luck in the New Year, and please keep in touch.  Happy New Year.

 

Russ Geck and Gárdos Andrea (granddaughter of Emil Gárdos and Grace Blair)

 

And, this is how I responded:

Russ,

If you could, there are a number of questions concerning the Tippit Phone Call document that fellow researchers have concerning the relationship of Emil, Grace, and Fred Blair.  We originally thought that, John the son of Grace and Emil, was the Lee Harvey Oswald talked about in the document. 

That has now been debunked.  So, many folks, including myself, feel that there is something to this call.  There has to be a reason that the FBI hid this information for nearly 30 years under a Top Secret/ Not to be declassified status.  This phone call material and subsequent FBI documents concerning Grace Gardos went directly to the top of the FBI and to a Group 1, I would think this was the top leadership, and also classified as Top Secret / Not to be declassified.  So, there are a number of questions.  We believe that the FBI was covering up the true situation and may have misled with the information in the document if it ever was exposed.  The FBI does those kind of things to hide the identify of their informants.  In this case the two Childs brothers Morris and Jack Childs.

1. Do you have any reason to believe that Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, or Fred Blair could have been temporary foster caretakers in 1945 -47 for any small children refugees from Eastern Europe?

2. Were they the type of people who might have been especially concerned with the plight of Hungarian or other European refugee orphans after WWII? Did they have any connection to any organizations that might have had such hunanitarian interests?

3. When Emil and Grace, and young John were all living in Yorkville, did any of Emil's activities involve anything that led our mysterious woman caller to conclude (erroneously) that Emil was the biological parent of a Russian-speaking little boy from Europe?

4. Did Fred Blair live or visit Yorkville at any time in the 1940s?  Particularly, in 1947 during the beginning of the 2^nd Red Scare that began after March, 1947?

5. Do you or your wife, Andi, have any information about Louis Weinstock.  Information about Louis and Emil working together for refugee causes?  Or, how Louis Weinstock might relate to the events in the call?

6. We ask if you or your wife has any information about any connection, no matter how tenuous or brief, between Emil Gardos and/or Grace Gardos and/or Fred Blair and any small boy  (besides his own biological son John) in Yorkville in the 1940's. Could any of them have been a caretaker, a foster parent, a temporary custodian, an attendant, etc. to provide refuge for any little boy or boys for any duration in the 1940's?

7. Did the Gardos or Louis Weinstock know Alexander and Mary Fuhrman?  They were also Hungarians and not sure whether they were communists or not.  They may have been connected to Emil Gardos through coal mine strikes in the late 1920s and early 1930s.

8. Do you recognize the address 77^th and 2^nd Avenue, NYC.  This is an address that does not connect to anything know about this FBI document.  We think this is part of the misleading information in the call.

9. I was going to ask about Grace Gardos living at the US embassy in Budapest.  But, you have already answered that.

10. Did Emil or Grace know Morris or Jack Childs?  Did they know the two brothers were double agents for the FBI?  This might explain why Grace was so badly treated by the FBI.

I am sorry for relaying so many questions at one time.  Feel free to answer only what you are comfortable with or have some knowledge concerning things.

I, and others will appreciate greatly whatever help you can give us.

Edited December 31, 2019 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

4 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

David, 

Let me see if I've got your gist here:

1.We should consider whether the woman caller did not connect Gardos and Blair as "Oswald's" father and uncle, but instead as two distinct pairs of men. 

Hmm.   THE CALLER NEVER CONNECTED GARDOS AND BLAIR... WE DID. (SEE MY POST WHICH FOLLOWED THAT SPELLS OUT THE FACTS AND SPECULATION)

Well, she mentioned "Hungarians and Communists", and Gardos (both Hungarian and Communist) and Blair (Communist) fit. And she seemed to imply a connection between them and "Oswald's" father and uncle, but we have no explicit statement as to that, so your hypothesis is still (remotely) possible.  JUST TRYING TO ID "FACTS" FROM THAT REPORT

2. If the Gardos/Blair pair were distinct from "Oswald's" father and uncle, then it would seem that all four were Communist and three of the four were Hungarian. And therefore, little "Oswald" was Hungarian.   FACTS PAUL.... WOULD YOU SAY JOHN GARDOS WAS HUNGARIAN?  HIS FATHER WAS HUNGARIAN, MOTHER AMERICAN, BORN IN MICHIGAN....
LITTLE OSWALD... FATHER/UNCLE HUNGARIAN COMMUNISTS (POSSIBLY PAID BY GARDOS).. MOTHER: UNKNOWN, LOCATION BORN: UNKNOWN....
WHY AGAIN MUST LITTLE OSWALD BE HUNGARIAN?

3. I agree that Margaret Keating is of interest as a possible "Marguerite" imposter. However, the only image we have of her simply does not fit. She's not our "Marguerite". So, unless the photographic record has been manipulated (possible), that's a dead end. SO QUICK TO CONCEDE...  WHILE FROM IRELAND AND DOUBTFULLY CONNECTED, THERE MAY BE MORE TO THE KEATINGS THAN JUST A SINGLE WOMAN

James Victor Keating the 2^nd and 3^rd  

The JVK 2^nd was brother to Margaret Keating, Oswald’s 1^st wife.

The 2^nd marries  Edna MARGARET Lloyd (BECOMING MARGARET KEATING)
James V Keating the 3^rd marries Kathryn Kelley and has a daughter named: Margaret Elizabeth Keating of Bethesda.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/102795476/margaret-emma-keating

4. I am not so interested in how the woman caller came to know of Mrs. Jack Tippit (albeit, that is a good question)  as to why she made the call. Did she really believe the Hungarians and Communists were about to take over the government? Did she really think little "Oswald" (from Yorkville) was some sort of super-duper secret agent, upon whose marksmanship rested a giant conspiracy plotted by foreigners and Reds? If she was not referring to Hungarians and Communists as the "Group from New York" intending to take over the government, then who?

I don't know what she thought, but why didn't she call the authorities? Of whom was she so afraid? Hungarians and Communists in NYC in 1963?
THE $64K QUESTION... WHO WOULD KNOW HER NAME AND WHO SHE WOULD BE SO AFRAID OF....  I'M THINKING THE COMMUNISTS WHICH MAY REACH BACK AS FAR AS THE 30'S WITH THE FDR COUP ATTEMPT.  HOW SHE COMES TO BE AWARE OF THE TIPPITS IN CT - ESPECIALLY A "JACK" TIPPIT - AND THAT SHE WOULD COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE CALL IS, TO ME, A KEY PIECE OF WHETHER THIS CALL WAS REAL OR AN FBI/CIA SETUP

 

5. I agree completely that the mystery of how this woman knew/believed that the Dallas "Oswald" was the same little boy whose father and uncle were NYC communists is something that we need to solve. I asked that same question weeks ago. 

I posed that it would have been impossible for any outsider to look at the face of a 24-year old man and be certain that he was the same little boy she'd known from 15 years earlier. Yet, she was so certain that she made this frantic call to Mrs. Tippit and identified "Oswald" as the son of a Hungarian Communist who had once lived in Yorkville! 

That meant, I argued, that our caller could only have been certain about "Oswald's" identity if . . . she had known him when he used the name "Oswald". If she had known him as a boy under a different name, it would have been impossible for her many years later then to recognize him as "Oswald"!  OR KNEW THE CHILD WHO WAS TO BECOME "OSWALD" SINCE LEE HARVEY WAS NOT BORN TO A MAN & WOMAN LIVING IN NYC IN 1939...  IF YOU FOLLOW THE TIMELINE FOR HARVEY, IN THE SUMMER OF 1953 WHEN LEE AND MOM ARE IN NYC, HARVEY AND CARETAKER GO TO NORTH DAKOTA AS TOLD BY MR TIMMER.  TIMMER GOES ON TO SAY THIS 14/15 YEAR OLD TALKED ABOUT "ONE DAY KILLING THE PRESIDENT"
   BTW - A TRIP TO STANLEY NORTH DAKOTA FROM NYC WOULD ALLOW THEM TO PASS THRU MILWAUKEE

I believe you tend to agree with my speculation that the 1940's connection between the little boy ("Oswald") and the real Lee Harvey Oswald could only have been made by someone who actually physically saw both boys. And that could only have been Edwin Ekdahl, the real Marguerite's third husband. When Ekdahl notified his contacts (formal or informal) in the national security apparatus about the apparent physical similarity between the two boys, the "Harvey" project was born. This had to be before Edwin and Marguerite split up in the summer of 1947 and divorced in 1948. 

I DON'T AGREE - REMEMBER, IF THIS WAS A CIA/ANGLETON THING TO GET SPIES INTO RUSSIA...  THE PHONE CALL COULD BE CIA (HUNT OR PHILLIPS EVEN) POINTING THE TRAIL IN ANOTHER DIRECTION...  A LITTLE BIT OF TRUTH AND A WHOLE LOT OF LYING....  I DON'T SEE HOW EKDAHL CAN SEE BOTH BOYS - IF THE SAN SABA PHOTOS ARE ACTUAL HARVEY MAYBE (WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE)...  I DON'T KNOW WHY PIC LIES ABOUT SAN SABA SINCE IT WAS HE WHO TOOK THE PHOTOS. 

BTW - AS I RESEARCH FBI, COMMUNISM AND THE TIME PERIOD THERE ARE MANY, MANY NAMES THAT POP UP - THE FBI WAS ALL ABOUT COMMUNISM IN THE 50'S AND 60'S AND HAD INFORMANTS EVERYWHERE - IF OSWALD CAME OUT OF A COMMUNIST PLAN (TO DO WHAT EXACTLY?) THE FBI WOULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT IT.  AS MORE TIME PASSES I SEE THIS AS A RED HERRING...  WHAT THE CALLER WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO KNOW DOESN'T SEEM POSSIBLE

THE MENTION OF ONLY A SINGLE BOY LIVING AT SAN SABA DURING THE SUMMER OF 1947 CONFLICTS WITH THE FACT THEY LIVED AT 1505 8TH AND BOTH ROBERT AND JOHN COME HOME FROM CHAMBERLAIN IN AUGUST 1947.  I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT THE SWITCH WAS DONE AFTER NYC - NOT BEFORE.  

This means that the name "Oswald" was given to the mysterious little Hungarian boy by 1947, if not by 1945. This means our woman caller knew him then. After the summer of 1947, our little "Oswald" was bopping around down south with the Marguerite imposter. 

(It's either that, or our "Oswald" was really named Oswald all along, and not only did he (somewhat) bear a physical resemblance to the real Lee Oswald, but he also had the same birth name?

No. In the real universe, that is not a possibility worth pursuing. Relying on such coincidences to explain the assassination of the president is beneath serious discussion . . .)

6.Thanks in part to John Butler's work, we can now say with certainty that little John Gardos was NOT our "Oswald" (Harvey.)   AGREED   If the caller was right that little "Oswald's" father and uncle were Hungarians in Yorkville (and I think that it is very likely that little "Oswald" did live there for a bit, although I agree the FBI report only implies that and does not explicitly state that), then it is entirely plausible to me that the Yorkville Hungarian community would have been abuzz in the 1940's about Emil Gardos's deportation.(Regardless of whether the woman caller believed that Emil Gardos was "Oswald's" father, or not.)

A older Yorkville Hungarian woman such as John Pic's mother-in-law, Margaret Fuhrman,  would be an excellent candidate for our mysterious woman caller in 1963. She may well have been vaguely aware of the "Harvey" project by 1952/53, and she plausibly could have assumed (wrongly) that "Oswald" was the biological son of Emil Gardos back in the mid '40's, before "Oswald" was placed with "Marguerite."   PIC'S WIFE IS A GOOD CANDIDATE AS WELL, ESPECIALLY IF SHE LEARNS SOME OF THE FACTS ALONG THE WAY YET THE CALLER IS SIAD TO HAVE BEEN A MORE MATURE WOMAN - MRS FUHRMAN IS A GREAT CANDIDATE...  BUT THAT WOULD ALSO MEAN JOHN EDWARD WOULD HAVE BEEN AROUND THE 2 YEARS THEY WERE IN NYC... AND HE SEES HIS REAL MOTHER... BUT STOPS SEEING LEE HARVEY

Margaret Fuhrman would have had no specific knowledge about the missions in which the dual "Oswald" identities were used, and therefore might well have guessed wrong in a phone call in 1963, but she was right in her belief that the plot involved people once connected to the Yorkville Hungarian community. According to John Pic's sworn testimony, Margaret Pic and her husband had been living in Yorkville "a good many years" and maybe since the birth of their eldest daughter in 1924.

If Margaret Fuhrman was indeed the mysterious woman caller in 1963, then that would explain the absolutely bizarre series of questions posed to John Pic by WC attorney Albert Jenner at the beginning of Pic's testimony:

 Mr. JENNER. Give the full name of your wife including her married name, children, if any, ages and names and where born.

Mr. PIC. My wife’s maiden name is Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. My eldest is John Edward Pic, Jr., 14 May, 1952. My daughter, Janet Ann Pic, 18 October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960.

Mr. JENNER. Your wife Margaret is-she was born where?

Mr. PIC. New York City, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Her parents are native Americans as well as she?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; they are not.

Mr. JENNER. What do you know of them?

Mr. PIC. Her father died; I never met the man while we were going together. Her mother and father were separated. Her mother was born in Hungary, I think. Her father was also sir.

Mr. JENNER. What do you understand as to when they came to this country?

Mr. PIC. I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I have forgotten.

Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression they had been here a good many years?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her forties, I am pretty sure.

Mr. JENNER. I see. When you met your wife she was living with her mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, New York City.

Mr. JENNER And you were at that time in the service?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; U.S. Coast Guard, assigned to U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Rockaway.

I THINK IT TERRIBLY IMPORTANT THAT WE AGREE ON A PURPOSE FOR THE COMMUNISTS TO CREATE AN OSWALD DOUBLE. UNLESS IT WAS IN SERVICE OF THE US INTELLIGENCE SERVICES.  THE ONLY TIME THIS WOULD OCCUR IS 1953 WHEN HARVEY LEAVES IN JUNE/JULY WHILE LEE'S MOM WORKS IN NYC UNTIL DEC WHEN THEY LEAVE FOR NEW ORLEANS AND LEE ENTERS BEAUREGARD IN JANUARY 1954.  THE INCORRECT SCHOOL RECORD IS FOR THE SPRING 52-53 SEMESTER WHICH STATES HE ATTENDS 109 DAYS OF SCHOOL FROM MARCH 23 TO JUNE 23 WHILE SPENDING OVER 2 WEEKS AT YOUTH HOUSE IN APRIL/MAY.

THIS IS 3 VERSIONS OF WHAT SHOULD BE 1 RECORD STARTING WITH THE ONE IN THE MIDDLE... EVERYTHING WOULD/SHOULD HAVE BEEN ADDED TO THAT ONE.  THE ONE ON THE RIGHT IS NOT EVEN THE SAME FORM AS THE MIDDLE (AND ON THE LEFT)   THIS CHILD REMAINS IN THE "X" OR BRONX BURROUGH THE ENTIRE TIME - AND EVEN IF NOT, WHY HAVE A SPACE FOR BURROUGH IF THERE ISN'T THE POSSIBILITY IT CAN CHANGE...  THERE WERE 4 PS44 SCHOOLS AND 2 OR 3 PS 117'S IN THE EARLY 50'S.

SO... WE HAVE 2 PHOTOS OF CARS IN BENBROOK - ON IS MARGUERITE AND EDWIN IN FRONT OF A 1938 BUICK (HORIZONTAL GRILL SPOKES)
THE PIC PHOTOS OF BLACKIE THE DOG, A CHILD AND A WOMAN NEXT TO A CAR PARKED ON CEMENT STRIPS IS A 1937/38 PLYMOUTH (VERTICAL GRILL SPOKES) WHICH PIC CLAIMS HE TOOK OR AT LEAST WROTE "1949" ON. IN '49 THEY LIVE ON EWING AND JOHN IS IN 11TH GRADE...  GEORGIA BELL CLAIMS SHE NEVER SAW ANYONE OTHER THAN THE SHORT FAT MARGE AND A SON FROM THE SUMMER OF '47 THRU THANKSGIVING.  THEY DISAPPEAR AFTER THAT - I AM GUESS THEY ARE AT 2220 THOMAS SINCE ROBERT OSWALD IS LISTED IN 10TH GRADE AT ARLINGTON HEIGHTS HIGH SCHOOL AFTER GRADUATING FROM STRIPLING.... WHILE "HARVEY OSWALD" IS IN 4TH AT RIDGLEA ELEMENTARY...  THE TARRANT COUNTY CARD SHOWS HARVEY WITH A 10-19-39 BDAY

ROBERT OSWALD IS LISTED AS ROBERT'S PARENT/GUARDIAN WHILE YOU SEE WHAT HARVEY'S PARENT IS....   IF THERE IS A LEE OSWALD IN FT WORTH, HE IS NOT LISTED

BTW - THE BDAY SHOULD BE 10-18-39.... NOT 19.  HIS BDAY FOR 48-49 IS LISTED AS 7-9-39 WHEN THE DATE USED WAS 7-19-39 SO LEE COULD GET INTO SCHOOL IN 1945

 

[David Josephs]

HERE'S THE POST I REFER TO:

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

OK - Facts and Speculation....   Emil could have simply been the man paying the FATHER and UNCLE...
It seems to me quite possible the big deal reason for hiding this away had more to do with the US CITIZEN GRACE BLAIR GARDOS than with Emil  (see below)*

 

Using these FACTS... what can be concluded about this woman and her call in regards to: Oswald, the Father/Uncle, a "brother-in-law", Wisconsin and Yorkville?

FACTS

·         Jack D Tippit is a married cartoonist in Westport CT

·         Call was about 11:30 am on “INSTANT DATE” – what does that mean?

·         Caller was a woman with an accent

·         Asked if Tippit related to Dallas Tippit

·         Mrs. T says “distantly related” to officer and asked her name

·         Could not give name – afraid of being killed

·         Caller was from NY

·         Caller had come “here” to avoid being traced (knows enough about long distance and local calls)

·         Caller requests nothing be said TO THE PRESS about a “woman calling” – they would know and kill her

(This not saying anything about the call to the PRESS thing… with the info offered what would the caller be assuming? – they would just sit on the info or call the FBI instead?)

·         Knows Oswald’s Father and Uncle WERE Hungarian Communists

·         Caller says Father and Uncle lived at 77^th and 2^nd in Yorkville. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkville,_Manhattan#/map/0 Yorkville slightly north
S: East 79^th / E: FDR Drive / N: 96^th / W: 3^rd Ave

·         Both unemployed – paid by the Communists to do Communist activities
(Helping to form Unions was primary activity)

·         Caller offers the name EMILE KARDOS (sic) Emil & Grace Gardos

·         Caller focuses on the term “Brother-in-law” repeating it but not defining it

·         Mrs. Tippit tries to find out who the brother-in-law is but woman just repeats the phrase

·         Caller says GARDOS head of the Communists

·         Caller says this NY Group has “charts and maps”

·         Caller mentions WEINSTOCK, editor of Worker’s World

·         Caller says group in NY plans to take over Government

·         Caller says “they” will deny it

·         Caller hangs up

·         FBI New Haven has no knowledge re: Father/Uncle residence or associates

SPECULATION
 

·         Call sounded local

·         Austrian/Germen and/or Spanish

·         Woman sounded mature

·         Mrs. Tippit mentions Norwalk Hour article about Tippit relatives

 

https://archive.org/stream/FBI-Operation-Solo/100-HQ-428091-Serial5842-5915_djvu.txt  

*TO : DIRECTOR, FBI (100-428091)

FROM: SAC, CHICAGO (134-46 Sub

Enclosed herewith for the Bureau are the original and three copies and f b$ New York one copy of a letterhead memorandum entitled, t !2BCF» W I ¥^r UNITED STATES CITIZEN RESIDING IN BUDAPEST, ^m M ^ ^ L^.

The information appearing in the enclosed letter-head memorandum was orally furnished on 10/15 and 18/66 by CG 5824rS* to SAs WALTER A. BQYLE. and RICHARD W, HANSEN

The enclosed letterhead memorandum is classified ? since unauthorized disclosure of the information set forth therein could reasonably Result in the identification of this source who is furnishing - information on the highest levels concerning the international communist movement, and thus adversely affecting the national, security In order to further protect the identity of this source, the enclosed Letterhead memorandum has been shown as being prepared at Washington, D.C.

(|?Bureau (Eqc>- 4) (RM)

1-New York <7100^134637) (Enc.^ 1) (Info) (RH)

RWH-MD17

 

================
In connection with the information set forth in the enclosed letterhead memorandum, CG 5824-S* advised that in regard to the negotiations concerning GRACE GARDOS* release, he had on HALUs instructions submitted a letter to the Central Committee of the Hungarian Socialist Workers Party (HS1VP) which was delivered to Z0LTA1T KOMOCSIN. In this letter it was noted that the CP, USA Was aware of problems in Hungary regarding hard currency and for this reason, i,£ necessary, was willing to lay out the money itself to cover GARDOS ' return to the U.S. Within an hour of the time this letter had been delivered, a response. " had come Tsack from the Central Committee of the HSWP authorizing GARDOS 1 release. The HSWP was, according to CG 582.4rS*, a little disturbed at HALL ' s intimation that "cheapness" and lack of funds on the part of the Hungarians had been, the cause for the long delay in handling this matter.

In Reply, Please Refer to File No. _______

 

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION  Washington, D. C.  October 24, 1966

GRACE GARDOS, UNITED STATES CITIZEN RESIDING IN BUDAPEST, HUNGARY. . .

 

A source, who has furnished reliable information in the past, during October, 1966, advised as follows;

In September, 1966, the Communist Party, USA (CP, USA) , through the cooperation of Zoltan Komocsin, a member of the Political Bureau, Central Committee, Hungarian Socialist Workers Party (HSWP) , made arrangements for Grace Gardos to be given permission. to return to the United States in order that she might work for the CP, USA in New York City » New York. Grace Gardos is a United States citizen who had gone to Hungary a number of years ago when her husband voluntarily accepted deportation from the United States.

Up to the present time, Grace Gardos has been acting as correspondent for "The Worker, " United States East Coast communist newspaper in Budapest . Her husband Emil is living in Budapest in a retired jstatus and on pension, / /frWs/^/  Gardos was scheduled to leave Budapest, Hungary, for the United States on approximately October 15, 1966, and was expected to arrive in the United States sometime around October 18, 1966.

In regard to Grace Gardos, it has been learned that she had not been particularly happy with her status in Hungary and there may be intent on her part at this time never to return to that country. This possible intent on the part of Gardos was not revealed by the CP, USA to the HSWP during negotiations with them. There was also some indication that Gardos, once she has returned to the United States, may make efforts for her son, who also resides in Budapest, to come to the United, States for possible permanent residence.

 

[John Butler]

David,

Something else to throw into the mix:

The Operation Solo Spies-

Wikipedia:

“Morris H. Childs (born Moishe Chilovsky; 1902–1991) was an American political activist and American Communist Party functionary who became a Soviet espionage agent (1929) and then a double agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (1952) until leaving both services by 1982. Beginning in 1958, Childs acted as a secret courier on behalf of the American party, briefing Soviet officials on political affairs in the American party and carrying funds to support the American Communist movement from Moscow to New York City, reporting details all the while to his FBI handlers. Over the course of two decades of activity in this role, Childs played a major part in the transfer of more than $28 million in Soviet subsidies to the American movement. For his activity as a courier on behalf of the Soviet government, Childs was awarded the Order of the Red Banner in 1975. His work as a spy for the American intelligence community was recognized in 1987 when Childs (together with his brother Jack) was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Ronald Reagan.”

And, brother Jack,

“Morris's younger brother Jakob "Jack" Childs was also a Communist. He, too, benefited from General Secretary Earl Browder's patronage, with Browder seeing to Jack's appointment as the business manager of the Young Communist League in New York City in 1931.^[15] In 1932 Browder tapped Jack Childs to attend the Lenin school to be trained as a communications expert, since the Comintern now sought those holding American passports because of their versatility.^[15] …

Jack Childs dropped out of the Communist Party in 1947 and spent his time and money taking care of his physically ailing brother as best he was able.^[19] His sudden lack of party activity generated a routine September exploratory visit by two special agents of the FBI in an effort to gauge his level of disaffection and to see whether he might be a willing source of information about the top levels of the Communist Party.^[19]

Jack was happy to lend assistance to the FBI, declaring to them that he "never really believed any of that communist bullxxxx" and that he had been active in the Communist Party merely for the sake of his brother, who had been a true believer and a figure of authority.^[20] Now Morris had been abandoned, fired from his job and left penniless, stricken by a heart attack and seemingly near death. He had begun to question everything. When his FBI interlocutors intimated to Jack Childs their desire to infiltrate the top level of the Communist Party with an informant, Jack had a potential solution, declaring "Morris is your ticket to the top."^[20] “

Morris was FBI spy CG 5824-S* and Jack was NY 694-S*.  Both of these men were awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom for their anti-communist work for the FBI.

Morris Childs assume the leadership of the Communist Party in Wisconsin at the same time that Emil, Grace, and Fred Blair were there.  They new each other and worked together. 

In the Solo documents it is CG 5824-S (Morris Child) who is overseeing the return of Grace Gardos to the US in September and October of 1966. 

I don’t know if this is true but they all may have been anti-communist double agents for the FBI.  This is what may explain what the FBI did with the Tippit Phone Call.

They covered up this phone call because it may have exposed their double agents in the communist party.  Morris was the top, premier FBI spy on the communists.  The Gardos, Blairs, and Weinstock were associated with him not only in Wisconsin, but in New York also. 

The cover up of the Tippit Phone Call may not have been about the Oswald at all. 

How much of this one can believe is problematic.  I’m offering this as a speculation on why the FBI treated the call as they did.     

Edited January 1, 2020 by John Butler

[Ken Martinson]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Marguerite

After LHO died, she lived for over 17 years in the Dallas area. And she wrote a book that was never published.

It seems odd that she would keep a secret for so long. I wonder what was in the book ?

It seems more likely that, IF there were two Oswalds, then she was in the dark about the other one. In those years from 1963 to 1981 I wonder who her friends were, and what they remember of her? Did she leave any books or clothes or letters behind ? (a possible source of DNA).

[David Josephs]

John.. Archive.org has a large amount of data on the 2 Child’s and Operation Solo... saw a 3500 page scanned doc with nothing but info from, on both Child’s....  nice find.

Ken,

there would be little reason for those who do not know about all the conflicts to even bother.  While H&L works for most people who take the time to consider the totality of the evidence, it is not a widely held theory despite it fitting the evidence so well.

while a DNA test today seems no big deal... there are legal considerations that preclude these tests from just happening... I mean Robert’s kids and Lee’s should have DNA showing they are related to Marge.   What are the chances of being allowed to do that you think.

If we’re right, it looks like an ONI/CIA project.... getting Americans into Russia for intel.  When in fact the KGB turned tables by finding wives for these Americans with which to return to the US and gather their own intel.  Marina’s backstory is just as amazing and interesting..  did you know she had her birth certificate reissued in 1961, and the number of inconsistencies along her life are also noteworthy...  her name and occupation changes often depending on where u look.

Bottom line, with Lee, Robert, John and mom at 1505 8th thru the summer of 47, a short, fat woman and child are seen living at 101 San Saba... personally I fail to see how this can be Harvey and Marge2...but that’s the idea.... what seems to happen after this is that Harvey follows Lee and vice versa, schools, Marine training, etc....  How Harvey and M2 get to NY then is a mystery....

Btw, Pic only starts using notes in his testimony starting with August 1952.... the Moment they come to NY.... fwiw

 

[John Butler]

David,

“It seems to me quite possible the big deal reason for hiding this away had more to do with the US CITIZEN GRACE BLAIR GARDOS than with Emil  (see below)*”

I think you are on to something with this.  I have felt all along that Grace Gardos and the way she was treated by the FBI has something to do with the Tippit call.  She is not mentioned directely, but indirectly as the wife of Emil Gardos in the call.

The FBI reacted to the knowledge that she wanted to return to the US in 1966 in a manner that was not consistent with a US citizen (albeit a communist) wanting to return to the US after approx.- 16 years in a foreign country.  Looking at the documents suggest they weren’t too interested until they learned she wanted to bring her son with her.  The FBI immediately directed offices across the country to monitor Soviet delegations and identify all personnel involved?  Were they looking for Grace?  I think yes?  Why were they thinking of initiating a counter-intelligence operation against her if she returned?

Here's a timeline I made of Grace Gardos that may help with your thinking:

Grace Gardos

1911, January 17- Grace Blair is born in Berlin, Wisconsin.  Grace died in Budapest, Hungary at the American Embassy in 1993.  She was the daughter of John A. and Mary A. Blair. 

Note:  All of the Blair family was recorded in the 1920 US Census.  The Census includes a daughter in law, Isabelle.

Grace Blair in the 1920 United States Federal Census

 

Name:	Grace Blair
Age:	9
Birth Year:	abt 1911
Birthplace:	Wisconsin
Home in 1920:	Fond du Lac Ward 8, Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Street:	Street 52
Residence Date:	1920
Race:	White
Gender:	Female
Relation to Head of House:	Daughter
Marital status:	Single
Father’s name:	John A Blair
Father’s Birthplace:	Minnesota
Mother’s name:	Mary A Blair
Mother’s Birthplace:	Wisconsin
Able to Speak English:	Yes
Attended School:	yes
Able to Read:	Yes
Able to Write:	Yes
Neighbors:	View others on page View others on page
Household Members:	Name Age John A Blair 53 Mary A Blair 46 Clemence A Blair 23 Isabelle Blair 21 Clarence Blair 21 Hazel Blair 19 Naomi Blair 17 Caroll Blair (Fred) 13 Edward Blair 12 Amy Blair 10 Grace Blair 9 Madeline Blair 6

Grace’s father, John A. Blair, was a coal miner.  Of particular importance to understanding Grace’s story is her brother Fred Blair. It was said that Fred, Grace, and another communist, Emil Gardos were active in the coal mine strikes of the late 1920s and 1930s.

1922, August 17- Emil Gardos was born on the December 19, 1901 and died in 1981.  Emil Gardos came to the New York City as an immigrant.  Emil was born in Kisjeno, Aradm, Hungary.  He claimed citizenship in Hungary and Romania.  He came to American probably as a result of the failed communist rebellion in Hungary in 1919.

1923- Louis Weinstock immigrates to the US from Hungary.

1930- Fred Blair left the University in 1929, went to Milwaukee, and in 1930 became a member of the Communist Party. That year he was arrested for striking a policeman in a Riot, and he subsequently served a year in prison.  He changed his name to Fred Bassett and then Fred Blair.

1936, August 29- Grace Blair and Emil Gardos marry in New York City.

1939, January 29- The birth of John Gardos in Bessemer Township, Michigan,

1940- US Census- Emil, Grace, and John.  Residence is Ironwood, Gogebic, Michigan.

1942- Grace Gardos at 514 East 83^rd Street, New York, NY.

1942- Grace signs petition to abolish poll tax in southern states.

1943- Grace and Emil live at 217 East 86^th Street, NYC.

1944- Grace and Emil live at 217 East 86^th Street, NYC.

1945- Grace and Emil live at 217 East 86^th Street, NYC.

1946- Grace and Emil live at 217 East 86^th Street, NYC.

1949-1950- Visas to go to Hungary for Emil and Grace Gardos.  Notice that Louis Weinstock has applied also.  He didn’t go and was later put into prison.

1966, October 24- FBI document.  Source CG 5824-S* Morris Childs.  This was the FBI’s most important double agent spying on communists in the 1960s.

You will notice this is marked Top Secret and not to be declassified.  It is assigned to Group 1., whatever that is.  The reliable source was CG 5824-S* known as 58 (Morris Childs) 

This type of information went directly to the top of the FBI for disposal.  It went to the Director and Assisstant Director of the FBI.  The Tippit called was directed to Alex Rosen Asst. Director of the FBI> 

This is why fellow researchers thought something was going on with Grace Gardos and son John other than just communist activities. 

Morris Childs knew Grace, Email, and Fred Blair from working together in Wisconsin about the late 1930s, 1938-1939.

 

1964- Grace Gardos visits the US and relatives.

1966- One FBI document indicated that the FBI was thinking about starting a counter intelligence operation against Grace Gardos.

1966-1981- No further information other than Grace and son did not travel to the US in  late 1966..

Russ Geck indicated this SS record is in error.  Grace did not live or die at the US embassy.

Just something interesting.  The ex-home of Louis Weinstock was on Zillow:

 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

52 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I think you are on to something with this.  I have felt all along that Grace Gardos and the way she was treated by the FBI has something to do with the Tippit call.  She is not mentioned directely, but indirectly as the wife of Emil Gardos in the call.

I assume you refer to "brother-in-law" and your conclusion that MUST refer to Blair...   As I understand it, Grace is in Hungary in 1963 when the call is made, right?

It only makes sense to connect Gardos and Blair via that comment... if and only if it is Grace - or someone in the know...

As for her treatment... please elaborate.  She was an American living in a communist country, living as a communist... it would be strange to have a double agent like Childs report on another agent, Grace... if she was acting in that capacity.  But it would solidify her cover....

So it was not Grace as she was not here... agreed?

Grace and Amy Blair are about the same age... sisters...  one wonders to which sibling Grace was closest.  The name BLAIR would raise some communist eyebrows if it was learned it was a Blair making that call... yes?  The connections would be obvious if one knew anything about the CP in Wisconsin.

Did any other Blair family members have children in the late 30's early 40's?

Did any other Blair family members move to NY?

With Gardos and Weinstock on that list for Visas... I wonder who was known as the CP power in Yorkville...  

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/opinion/new-york-american-communism.html   this article places the CP power in south Manhattan... where the CP HQ was located...

What became the Communist Party U.S.A. (its name varied in the early years) was founded in Chicago in 1919 and, following a period of underground organization, opened its national headquarters in that city in 1921. But the bulk of the movement’s members were in New York, and in 1927 Communist headquarters were shifted to a party-owned building in Manhattan, at 35 East 12th Street, two blocks south of Union Square. (The building still stands, although under new ownership, and in what has evolved into a considerably less proletarian neighborhood than in the old days.)

New York would remain the capital city of American Communism from then on. Leading communists, including such figures as William Z. Foster and Earl Browder, had their offices on the top floor of the 12th Street building; accordingly, within the movement, it became the custom to refer to party leadership as the “ninth floor.” (And, for some reason, even in non- and anti-Communist left-wing circles, “the party” was always understood to refer to the Communists, rather than any rival organizations.)

-----

In 1956, with a hard core of 20,000 or so surviving members, the party was dealt a fatal blow when the Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev, delivered a “secret speech” to the 20th party congress in Moscow, denouncing his predecessor, Stalin, as a bloody mass murderer. The speech leaked. So did the disillusioned membership of the Communist Party U.S.A., reduced to a few thousand members by 1958, and never recovering much beyond that in decades to come. It did, however, survive the collapse of its political inspiration, the Soviet experiment.

The 50's showed what power the US democratic/capitalistic society could wield.  It was a direct blow to the CP who had been preaching about the depression and how it was inevitable as opposed to the Russian way of life which would care for everyone.. or so it was said.

That the caller names GARDOS and NYC... and WEINSTOCK suggests to me the caller MUST have had ties to Wisconsin... or simply had heard the names, was deathly afraid of communists and then called the Tippits?  If it was the CP she was worried about, she should have called the FBI... or police.

Did the CHILDS' have wives?

15 hours ago, John Butler said:

The cover up of the Tippit Phone Call may not have been about the Oswald at all. 

How much of this one can believe is problematic.  I’m offering this as a speculation on why the FBI treated the call as they did.

That is where my thinking is going as well John.  Yet, Childs working from 1952 to 1982 matches the time frame for the useful tenure of one Marge C. Oswald who dies in 1981.

In the summer of '53 Harvey and Marge go to Stanley ND.  One can pass thru Milwaukee on this trip.  Childs is in Milwaukee.  More on ND shortly....
In the summer/fall of 1953, Lee's mother works in NYC with PIC visiting her from time to time.  

Something is going on it appears... whether related or not... well, that's what we're doing here, right?