EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

The Accent of the Mysterious Woman

“MRS. TIPPIT THOUGHT THE
WOMAN HAD AN AUSTRIAN OR GERMAN ACCENT WHILE MR. TIPPIT
BELIEVED IT WAS SPANISH.”

One can go to Google to translate something from one language to another.  You can also hear what that language sounds like.

English and German are Germanic languages and have a similar sound.  You can also relate Russian to Germanic languages through the Rus, or Swedish settlers in Russian in the Kiev area about 1,000 years ago.

None of the languages mentioned above, in my opinion, sound like Hungarian.  Hungarian or Magyar is a language whose origins come from Western Siberia and are related to the Finno-Ugric language family. 

Surprisingly, Spanish, a Romance language related to Germanic languages, does sound like Hungarian.  The words in one language are totally different as versus the other.  But, the sounds of the language can be mistaken.

Perhaps, Mrs. Tippit was mistaken when thinking of European languages and Mr. Tippit caught the true sound.  OK, we can assume that, but this does not explain or help explain how Harvey Oswald was fluent in Russian.

Prior to WWI the Austro-Hungarian Empire was made up of Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, and about half of Romania.  Emil Gardos was a Romanian and Hungarian.  He was born or lived in Constanta, Romania.

Later he acquired Hungarian citizenship.  The area pointed to had at that time many Russian, Hungarian, other minorities, and Romanian people.  Romanian is a Romance language related to Latin.  Many people of Hungarian spoke several languages due to the mix of various ethnic groups.  Emil Gardos more than like spoke Hungarian, Russian, and Romanian. 

If one can relate John Gardos to Harvey Oswald then this may be the source of his Russian fluency.  This may be something he was intentionally taught as a child. 

In order for this to be believable, one has to firmly connect the two. 

Some of the things in the Tippit Call are turning out to be reliable.  Perhaps, with time other things will too.

Edited December 19, 2019 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks David,

I'm not familiar with the Walcott material

Wilcott is the lynchpin to the Oswald Project....  yet as I say... The evidence is virtually all about what Wilcott heard after the fact... 

He was not in Japan when Lee Harvey was there....

 

9-16-78 Station Finance Tokyo

Bill Schaap - Committee did stress analysis on Jim Wilcott. Cuban stress analysis verified Wilcott validity.

Approximately April-June 1963, Cryptonym for Oswald Project approx. RX-ZIM.

Standard two consonants followed by 2,3,4 letter pronounceable word.

Two case officer money dispersal methods: .

USSR SR Branch - believed responsible for Oswald Project.

Korea:  Korea Branch

All stations operate the same, especially Class A Station.

Special Base deep cover CIA base - Atsugi.

True name file destroyed in seconds - told to Committee.

Principle agents - subsidiary agents. Wilcott- includes Diet members.

Code ex. AN AIM 1, AN AIM 2, AN AIM 3, etc.

AN AXCL (approx.) project code name.

Moral Rearmament - CIA project funding (talking to ministers, etc..)

One goal: placing CIA agents in strategic locations. .

Washington, D.C. Sept. 64 - May 65: disbursed and audited funds

to National Student Association, AFL-CIO, universities (Columbia

V.I.

Oswald Project Summary:

submit project outline to Chief of Japan Branch;

submit outline to desk of Japan Branch HDGT.

Project returned to Japan Station.

Nothing sent by mail. Use diplomatic courier. Allotment determined.

Quarterly allocations from approved disbursement. Two withdrawal

methods. Advance request signed:

a. agent,

b. branch officer

C. finance

d. station auditor checks project code number under cryptonym.

TSD - logistics, etc. all under number code.

Funds withdrawn accounted by agent monthly:

a. difficult to account for all agents expenditures;

b. if balance existed, refunded.

C. If deficit, advance to cover deficit.

d. some advance requests. Some revolving funds. Some agents used

own funds. .

[Paul Jolliffe]

20 hours ago, David Josephs said:

How about the fact in the 1940 Census at 2109 Alvar... in addition to Marge, John Edward, Robert and Lee there is a border: ANN G BURROUGHER age 22...

I've spoke to John about this... he also has no idea who Nancy Lee or who this ANN person is/was....

Also strange is that in 47-48 she is listed as Marguerite Oswald yet in 49-50 it's back to Marguerte Ekdahl despite having gotten a divorce already and having used "OSWALD" while she was married to Ekdahl.   ?!??!??!

Lee's behavior at the Pic apartment had me thinking that maybe the switch was already made but I was wrong...  the controlling Lee was just that, a fatherless, large boy becoming a man in NYC and not caring a lick about what mom has to say....  in fact anytime mom is in the room Lee is most troublesome.

This is a BIG BOY, who knows how to fight and win... not the quiet little boy who reads and keeps to himself...

I think it very possible that the Marge imposter at San Saba, stayed in the south when Marguerite and Lee go to NY, or goes to NY subsequently... and it is HARVEY who returns from NY... probably with the Marge imposter....  they go to Robert's place to stay.... if Robert did actually take the Bronx zoo photo, then he knows full well HARVEY is not Lee.

Harvey Lee would be Robert's wife's Brother-in-law... right?

 

 

David,

The 1949 Maguerite Ekdahl/Oswald/Ekdahl name thing is strange. Especially since she had asked the judge on June 24, 1948 to restore her name as "Marguerite C. Oswald". This was granted. Marguerite received $1,500 from Edwin A. Ekdahl when they officially divorced, which apparently he was glad to pay to be rid of her. (The FBI report has a typo in it: it claims that Edwin left the house, never to return again, in July of 1948. It is clear however from the report that it was July of 1947. )

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xHX_CxD7cBorTO4h-TgksZmZI2V1l3U-/view

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

It seems that the earliest known sightings of "Oswald" (Harvey) and "Marguerite" are within weeks of the real Marguerite's separation from Ekdahl in July of 1947. Ekdahl's divorce lawyer, of course, was the spooky  and well-connected future NAVSEC and Washington power-broker, Fred Korth. (Did Edwin tell his lawyer/buddy Korth in July of 1947 about his crazy wife with her three sons, one of whom resembled the Yorkville boy? And did Fred then relay this info to folks at ONI or the OSS who then started the "Oswald" project that fall?)

Edited December 19, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

(The FBI report has a typo in it: it claims that Edwin left the house, never to return again, in July of 1948. It is clear however from the report that it was July of 1947. )

The FBI was focused on keeping San Saba in the summer of 1948 for some reason - (Georgia Bell report)

I don't think Marguerite or Edwin lived at the San Saba House...  in fact only Lee may have ever been to that house....

========

While Georgia Bell describes the short, fat Marge... the timing is in direct conflict with records:  from H&L...

Lee Oswald completed the 1st grade at Lily B. Clayton Elementary on May 30, 1947. His grades were listed as two "A's" and the rest "B's." At the end of the spring semester at Chamberlain Hunt, John and Robert returned to Fort Worth and moved into the apartment at 1505 8th Avenue with their mother

In the summer of 1947 John Pic worked at Walgreen's for a few weeks and then began work at the Tex Gold Ice Cream parlor. The store was located at 1920 8th Avenue, four blocks south of the apartment at 1505 8th Avenue. By the end of the summer 15-year-old Pic was promoted to assistant manager

(go to Baylor and find the "San Saba" notebook"  page 26 is the TARRANT CTY record of sale on 7-7-47 to Marguerite EKDAHL of 101 San Saba

Mr. PIC - It was an L--shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was--
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.

https://taxdeed.tarrantcounty.com/ViewDocument.aspx?DocID=9664352  is the tax deed for 101 San Saba, a tiny L-shaped house.... see page 2

Much of Pic's testimony if incorrect when it comes to this time period and where they were....  I can't find where the "other" house on Granbury would have been....

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by David Josephs

[Jim Hargrove]

The little house at 101 San Saba is an early key to uncovering the Oswald project, and someone at the WC—almost certainly Allen Dulles—apparently knew it.  It seems that the WC Report deliberately lied:

On June 24 [1948], the court granted the divorce and approved an agreement between the parties disposing of their property between them and awarding Marguerite $1,500…. Shortly after the divorce, Mrs. Oswald purchased a small house in Benbrook, on what is now San Saba Street….” (WCR 673-674)

The WCR’s clear implication was that Marguerite used the settlement from Ekdahl to help buy the San Saba home.  But in the 1990s John A. searched the Tarrant County land records and discovered that  Marguerite actually purchased the property on July 7, 1947, agreeing with the memories of Georgia Bell and Otis Carleton.  It was Dulles who abruptly asked for a adjournment when Albert Jenner asked Robert Oswald to talk about the summer of 1947.  Dulles surely knew that Marguerite Oswald and her three boys were living at 1505 8th Avenue in Fort Worth during the summer of 1947. 

Among many other questions, we must wonder how Marguerite obtained the money to buy San Saba in her own name. 

[John Butler]

So, can we safely say that the first appearance of Harvey Oswald is the summer and fall of 1947?  OBTW, 1947 was a good year with the appearance of the Roswell babies.  Ha, Ha....

FBI Belief in the Credibility of the Mrs. Tippit Call

“BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER
INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO
KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER
AND UNCLE.”

Does this last statement of the FBI document mean that the FBI believed that Oswald’s father and uncle were Hungarian communists?  Or, is just a general statement on Oswald’s father and uncle?

If taken at face value then the answer is yes.  The Bureau (the leadership in Washington) is asking for information from Dallas and New York to see if they had “pertinent” information on this matter. 

It sounds like the leadership in Washington believes this information.  And, are checking what else is known.  If nothing the matter could be safely buried.  Which, the FBI promptly did.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

46 minutes ago, John Butler said:

It sounds like the leadership in Washington believes this information.  And, are checking what else is known.  If nothing the matter could be safely buried.  Which, the FBI promptly did.

That sounds right to me.  The anonymous call, the Tippits' report to the FBI, and the subsequent written report all allegedly occurred on Nov. 30, more than a week after the assassination.  By then, the Bureau’s basic cover-up had already been put in place.  The Bureau had, for example, FINALLY indicated publicly exactly how much money “Oswald” allegedly paid for a certain Italian carbine.  (Which is darkly humorous since the geniuses at the FBI had determined a week earlier that it was definitely “Oswald’s” handwriting on the order.)

Now, Hoover had to clean up any potential loose ends that might lead to the the Kardos/Gardos trouble spot.  I do believe this report was issued solely to do that.  It has an eerie similarity to phony Marguerite’s testimony saying she believed her “son” was a government agent of some sort.

Poor, poor, Marguerite.  What government bureaucrat with any heart at all, and knowledge of Agent Oswald, would fail to come home to “mom” and tell her the truth.  And then, one way or another, that g-man could be silenced.   Poor Mr. and Mrs. Tippit.  They could be used, even without their knowledge, the same way.

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

NEW HAVEN HAS NO KNOWLEDGE

Not New York, NEW HAVEN.... and why would NEW HAVEN have any info on NYC communists who lived in Wisconsin, Michigan as well?

This - to me - was another way the FBI hid what they knew....

Don't ya think we'd be more interested in what the New York Field Office had on EMIL and FRED?

[John Kowalski]

On 12/19/2019 at 10:02 AM, John Butler said:

I've spoke to John about this... he also has no idea who Nancy Lee or who this ANN person is/was...."

John B.

Thanks, looks liked I missed that. Nancy Lee is another aspect of the H&L story that needs to be unraveled.

[John Butler]

Right on, David

The FBI had been monitoring Emil Gardos since the 1920s by the New York FBI.  My theory, which is not supported by much fact, is that sometime during the 1920s Gardos was turned by the FBI as a confidential informant.  In the FBI report on Grace Gardos indicating she may want to return to the US.  There is info on Emil who is living in Budapest on pension.  Where did the pension come from?  Communist Party or work history in the US.  Mostly in the, US Gardos was an unemployed communist organizer.  Stephen Gaal has provided this info years ago from an FBI report:

"EMIL KARDOS was born 22 October 1905, received Social Security number 090-07-2878 (indicating New York) and, Death Master File says, died February 1981."

This was in FBI information may not be correct or it is something that was arranged to hide Emil Gardos' Social Security account.  Emil Gardos was born in 1901 not in 1905.  If you recall Oswald's $200 check he cashed were actually something like 187 dollars indicating money with held. 

I can not find the above Social Security reference in ancestry.com.  It should be easily found.  This indicates it may not be available to be found. 

Perhaps, Jim Hargrove could see if he can find this reference.  He has a good alternative genealogy source. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

7 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

John B.

Thanks, looks liked I missed that. Nancy Lee is another aspect of the H&L story that needs to be unraveled.

Thanks John K,

Glad to help.  David Josephs wasn't on line during that time and I thought I would answer that for him.  I didn't think he would care.

Edited December 20, 2019 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

Couple of things....

#1 - Marguerite Francis Claverie Oswald Ekdahl NEVER WORE GLASSES....

#2 J.E. PIC describes the house on San Saba while denying any knowledge of San Saba and giving us the year they moved in yet those who lived around 101 San Saba do not remember anyone other than short fat Marge and a single boy... (Where Nancy Lee went after she was 7 and at school with Harvey is a mystery as is Nancy herself)

Why do you suppose Edward denies San Saba as being this house he describes?  As the records show it was bought on 7-7-47...  Robert and John Edward stay at Chamberlain that summer (at least according to PIC's testimony) and then Georgia Bell tells John A that they leave by then end of November...  with the 2 other boys still at Chamberlain WE THINK Marge and the boy move to 2220 Thomas with the boy going to South Hi Mount elementary.... but that's not supported by facts, yet.

...I was told by her that she was contesting the divorce so that he would still support her. She lost, he won. The divorce was granted. I was also told that there was a settlement of about $1,200 and she stated that just about all of this went to the lawyer. Right after this is when she purchased the house in Ben-brook, Tex., the little house.
Mr. JENNER - Describe that house.
Mr. PIC - It was an L--shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was--
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall the street you were on in Benbrook; this first house?
Mr. PIC - There were no streets. We used a post office box number up at the post office there. Because I was sending away for stamps at the time from different companies, and I was collecting stamps and I would go pick up the mail at the post office.
Mr. JENNER - The first house in Benbrook was on Granbury Road, that is your recollection? That is the one you have already mentioned heretofore?
Mr. PIC - Granbury Road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way far south of town on Granbury Road, then that is it.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

WE THINK Marge and the boy move to 2220 Thomas

And it’s a well educated guess. As John A. wrote:

She [Georgia Bell] remembered that a neighbor, Lucille Hubbard, drove Mrs. Oswald to pick up some clothes from another house when she got a job as a nurse. Mrs. Hubbard confided to Georgia that Marguerite had furniture and lots of clothes stored at this house which was located "across from Stripling School."  -from The Early Years of Harvey and Lee.

The 2220 Thomas house was indeed located “across from the Stripling School” and was apparently available to “Marguerite” while she was still on San Saba. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Nancy Lee Oswald

I searched several big genealogy databases for “Nancy Lee Oswald” and found there are only a handful of persons with that exact name registered anywhere. None of them seems to match the Nancy Lee Oswald located by DJ in the Tarrant County school records.

The closest is a Nancy Lee Oswald listed in the 1940 census as a 4-year-old female (birth year 1936) residing in Indiana. Her father is listed as Ernest and her mother as Mary. Find A Grave has the following listing that I suspect, despite a one-year discrepancy in the birth date, is the same person.

Name:	Nancy Lee Oswald Baker
Maiden Name:	Oswald
Event Type:	Burial
Event Date:	2017
Event Place:	Goshen, Elkhart, Indiana, United States of America
Photograph Included:	N
Birth Date:	15 Aug 1935
Death Date:	05 Feb 2017
Affiliate Record Identifier:	176079098
Cemetery:	Violett Cemetery

 

No other “Nancy Lee Oswald,” and I have found only two or three, remotely matches David’s Tarrant County school listing. This is a real mystery.