EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

Sorry, In the excitement of finding this I misread the genealogy.com info.  This is the husband of the granddaughter of Emil and Grace Gardos.  His name is Russ Geck and he is on facebook for further info.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Here's something for someone to work on if they can access genealogy.com.  I don't seem to be able to do that.  This is as close as I have gotten to anybody in Hungary.  This guy seems to be the grandson of Grace Amalia Gardos.

Are you still considering Mary Fuhrman, John Pic’s mother-in-law? According to the 1940 U.S. Census, there was a Mary Fuhrman with a daughter Margaret living in Assembly District 2, Manhattan, New York.  She was born in 1898 in Hungary.  Mr. Pic testified that he thought his mother-in-law was Hungarian, and she might have still had an accent in 1963.

The biggest problem with Mary Fuhrman as a candidate for the anonymous caller is that her knowledge of “Lee Harvey Oswald” most likely would date back to the 1940s, since phony Marguerite was most likely his guardian starting at least in 1947.  Mr. Pic, I believe, indicated he first met his wife in 1950.  Any thoughts?

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

The mysterious woman caller (with an apparent German accent) seemingly could not remember Fred Blair's name, yet she knew the name "Emile Kardos" (as misspelled by the FBI.) Therefore, I'd bet she was not a relative of Fred or his wife. 

So who was the mysterious woman caller?

Well, we know she was wrong in her belief that her suspects were operating with young "Oswald" in the 1950's - Emil Gardos (accompanied by Grace) had accepted "voluntary" deportation by then. The woman was probably thinking of some connection from the mid 1940's.

We agree about the likelihood of a pre-1947 connection.  I wonder, though, if the anonymous caller was a member of the Blair family, if she might have just decided to keep the name Blair out of the discussion, although brother-in-law does seem like a pretty massive hint.  As I said to John B., I do think the peculiar northwoods accent that can be detected from northern Michigan through Wisconsin and westward to at least North Dakota might be misconstrued as a foreign accent.  It can be quite pronounced, as the movie Fargo depicted.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Are you still considering Mary Fuhrman, John Pic’s mother-in-law? According to the 1940 U.S. Census, there was a Mary Fuhrman with a daughter Margaret living in Assembly District 2, Manhattan, New York.  She was born in 1898 in Hungary.  Mr. Pic testified that he thought his mother-in-law was Hungarian, and she might have still had an accent in 1963.

The biggest problem with Mary Fuhrman as a candidate for the anonymous caller is that her knowledge of “Lee Harvey Oswald” most likely would date back to the 1940s, since phony Marguerite was most likely his guardian starting at least in 1947.  Mr. Pic, I believe, indicated he first met his wife in 1950.  Any thoughts?

Jim,

Sorry about the Geck info.  He is the husband of the granddaughter of Emil and Grace Gardos.  I guess I was to excited when I found that info.  Still this could be away to find some new info.  I sent a friend request.  I don't know how this will turn out.

Unfortunately, yes I am.  I have no direct evidence to connect the Fuhrmans to the Gardos.  I only found Census info from 1920.  I will look further for 1940.  This was cross referenced to other information such as Social Security applications of the daughters.  I found the Mary Fuhrman age 0 in the 1920 census and later an SS application for a Mary Fuhrman Rico who has the same parents as Margaret Fuhrman Pic.  The Margaret Schaffer was a servant born in KY in 1894.  This is someone who the Fuhrman's probably employed while he worked for a coal mine in KY.  Alexander Fuhrman working in a coal mine in KY is as close as I could get to Emil Gardos, organizer of coal miner strikes.

I have not found a 1940 Census record for Alexander and Mary Fuhrman.  Could you publish your Census info so that I can make a record of it. 

I base suspicion of the Furhrmans based on intuition or suspicion arising from reading the John Pic WC testimony.  That testimony reads like John Pic and Albert Jenner were working off of a script.  John Pic says several times I have not got there yet or something similar.  As detailed as this interrogation was the information about Margaret Pic's mother and father's name  was omitted.  And, I asked myself why? 

Why would information on Margaret's Hungarian parents be omitted?  This testimony was in 1964 and after the mysterious call to the Tippits.  Could Jenner have knowledge of that?  Probably not.  In interviewing John Pic prior to the testimony would her Hungarian parents become relevant?  if Pic didn't know the father he did know the mother.  Why was her name not mentioned?  Were the Fuhrmans communist and that had to be hid?  I have found no info on the Fuhrmans being communist. 

This lack of information is disturbing.  There should be something available other than one 1920 record. 

   

Edited December 14, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim Hargrove said, "The biggest problem with Mary Fuhrman as a candidate for the anonymous caller is that her knowledge of “Lee Harvey Oswald” most likely would date back to the 1940s, since phony Marguerite was most likely his guardian starting at least in 1947.  Mr. Pic, I believe, indicated he first met his wife in 1950.  Any thoughts?"

Jim,

We may be working off different assumptions.  In the past, I have assumed that the Marguerite Oswald was the phony Marquerite, but she had brought Lee Oswald to New York.  So, I need to get that right in my mind.  Nowadays, because of different info I believe it is the phony Marguertie and Harvey who traveled to New York.  The knife incident would involve Harvey rather than Lee.  The behavior of the Marguerite that went to New York matches the behavior patterns of the phony Marguerite.  Sooner or later both Oswalds will be in New York.  Does this mean that there were two Marguerites also? 

In this whole Pic/Furhman scenario, John Pic's recollection and statements come under question.  He says he could not recognize the Bronx youth as Lee Harvey Oswald, his half brother.  Could that be because he was seeing Harvey during this period?  Or, was he seeing Lee and the real Marguerite Oswald and wanted to cover that up? 

So, who do you think showed up at the Fuhrman's to stay with John Pic?

We have to assume that Mary Fuhrman returned to her home after the Oswalds left.  She would have talked to her daughter about the events there.  If there was a connection to the Gardos prior to 1947 or the period 1949-50, both Mary and Margaret Furhman would have known John Gardos.  Margaret would have know a phony Oswald as a phony Oswald.  She would have been 19 in 1952 and 14 in 1947.  John Pic would have known also.  It had not been that long since, perhaps 2 years, he had seen some version of his half-brother.

I am glad to see David Joseph's has Harvey involved in the knife incident.  But, he has Lee at the Fuhrman address 325 East 92nd Street.  That's a bit confusing.

Jim also said, "We agree about the likelihood of a pre-1947 connection.  I wonder, though, if the anonymous caller was a member of the Blair family, if she might have just decided to keep the name Blair out of the discussion, although brother-in-law does seem like a pretty massive hint.  As I said to John B., I do think the peculiar northwoods accent that can be detected from northern Michigan through Wisconsin and westward to at least North Dakota might be misconstrued as a foreign accent.  It can be quite pronounced, as the movie Fargo depicted."

The business of keeping the Blair name out of the conversation because the caller may be a Blair relative is really interesting.  The mysterious caller wanted that information out by repeatedly saying the brother in law.  But, I can find no evidence to link any Blair relative to the Gardos in New York.  The Blair relatives would have know the Gardos and John up to about 1942-43 in Milwaukee.  Or, some Blair relative could have visited New York in later years and knew an older John Gardos by 1947 or 1949-50. 

The problem I find with this is that the mysterious caller left New York to go to New Haven which is about an 80 mile trip.  A trip from Milwaukee is something I see as too far.  I won't argue with Jim on the northern accent.  That part of the country was filled with northern European and central European immigrants.  That would affect the language of the area.  Speaking English for some would be tinged by a foreign accent.  Such as the Swede in the movie the Searchers with John Wayne.  This large immigrant population would have influenced how English was spoken.  

Any help on straightening this out would be appreciated.

Edited December 14, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

Gentlemen,

Do we have any evidence that either Fred Blair and his wife (presumably Mary, but possibly Elizabeth A. Smith) were living in NYC in the 1940's? We know from the article in the Milwaukee Journal that Fred "disappeared" between 1951 and 1955, and therefore could have lived in NYC. However, Emil Gardos and his wife had already been deported by then, so that rules out the 1950's.

Perhaps Fred and Mary stayed for some time with Emil and Grace in Yorkville around 1945 - 46? Is there any record of that? John B's typed Commie card from yesterday had the information that Fred was "busted" from the Communist Party in Wisconsin in 1949, but nothing about NYC. 

Is there any evidence for Fred and his wife in NYC in the 1940's?

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

I have not found a 1940 Census record for Alexander and Mary Fuhrman.  Could you publish your Census info so that I can make a record of it. 

From the GenealogyBank portal to U.S. Census:

Mary Fuhrman
United States Federal Census, 1940

 

Name:
Mary Fuhrman
Census Year:
1940
Gender:
Female
Age:
42
Marital Status:
Married
Race:
White
Relationship:
Wife
Husband:
Alexander Fuhrman
Son:
Paul Fuhrman
Daughter:
Doris Fuhrman
Son:
Arthur Fuhrman
Son:
Edward Fuhrman
Daughter:
Emma Fuhrman
Daughter:
Margaret Fuhrman
Residence:
Assembly District 2, Manhattan, New York City, New York, New York, United States
Birthplace:
Hungary
Birth Year:
1898
Household Members:
Name
Age
Alexander Fuhrman
43
Paul Fuhrman
18
Doris Fuhrman
14
Arthur Fuhrman
13
Edward Fuhrman
11
Emma Fuhrman
9
Margaret Fuhrman
6

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Is there any evidence for Fred and his wife in NYC in the 1940's?

Not that I'm aware of, and I tried to hunt for some.  According to Wikipedia, he ran for governor of  Wisconsin in 1930, 1932, 1940, 1942, 1966, and 1974. He also ran for U.S. Senator for Wisconsin in the 1938 election.  I found quite a few newspaper articles on him, but only one from New York, just about Milwaukee.

[Jim Hargrove]

To anyone still interested in looking into John Gardos as a possible candidate for Harvey Oswald....

A couple of days ago, I sent the following question to the NYC Public Library:

Can you tell me what public elementary school a child would have attended in
1946 if he was born in 1939 and lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?

A few minutes ago I received the following answer:

Quote

 

Dear Jim Hargrove,

 

Your email has been forwarded to the Milstein Division of U.S. History, Local History and Genealogy at NYPL.  

 

For historical school district information, you may want to contact the Municipal Archives, which holds the NYC Board of Education Records. For additional tips on researching school, you may want to consult our division's guide Class Act: Researching New York City Schools with Local History Collections.

 

As a starting point, you may find it useful to use insurance maps to locate schools in the area of this address in 1946. The most recent digitized insurance map available on NYPL's website is from 1930; 217 E. 86th street is found on plate 115, which shows P.S. 30 as the nearest public school, on E. 88th Street. It was still there in 1952 (see attached map, accessed through the database Sanborn Maps, New York State (Geocoded), but you would have to do further research to determine if this was an elementary school.

 

We hope this information is helpful. Please let us know if we can further assist you.

 

 

[John Butler]

Jim,

Thanks for furnishing that info.  The Fuhrmans are no longer mysterious.  I have found lots of records for Alexander Fuhrman and Mary Fuhrman. 

But, I can't find that 1940 census.  Thanks.

Russ Geck and wife.  I don't know anything about facebook.  I'll have to get the wife to help with this.  I don't know if I am befriended or connected or whatever facebook does.

[David Josephs]

John... you might be a bit more mindful of other people’s privacy....

I realize the posted the photo on Facebook yet reposting their family, with children, seems to me unnecessary and a bit of an invasion of their privacy....

FWIW...

[John Butler]

David,

I never gave it a thought.  This photo is posted on the internet under the search Russ Geck.  It takes you to the Russ Geck facebook page where this is just one of several family photos posted on his page.  It is available to the public.

If you still think this is a no-no and an invasion of privacy let me know and I will remove the photo.  I don't want to do anything that is harmful to one.

Your reply will be appreciated and acted on. 

[David Josephs]

I'm quite anti-Facebook...  yet I guess if one puts things out there, one takes one chances....  so it's up to you...

Back to the subject....

WHO do you think are the likely candidates for those who would kill the caller if given her NAME...?

I get the impression she's more afraid of the Communists than the US government...

Plus, by process of elimination we should be able to narrow down who could have even known about Oswald's father and uncle...  maybe look for other GARDOS children born from 1935 to 1942 or so...  ?

Also the process of her finding out about Dallas Tippit and deciding to find M/M Jack Tippit in CT... where does one get the info on the OTHER Tippit's?

Interesting how GOSSI and this Jack Tippit are both artists/cartoonists fwiw....

So who, living in NYC Nov 1963 would have known about the Oswald doubling in the 40's AND know about the relationship...  and spoke with an accent....

Would Fred Blair have told his wife Mary?  They did disappear for most of the 40's... right?

DJ

[John Butler]

David,

I'm pretty much in the same boat when it comes to facebook.  I don't have an account and trying to use the wife's, well I'll need help.  If it doesn't offend anyone from this point on I will leave it.  If another objects I will remove.

A lot of good questions are posed in your comment.  I'll to give my thoughts on this.

Who was the mysterious caller afraid of and thought might kill her.

1.  Communists-  She may be a communist and an FBI informant.  There would be revenge and execution.  This was standard for Russian spy agencies or communist groups. 

2.  She is not giving this information to the FBI or the press.  She fears the press and a general announcement.  If she was an FBI informant, why wouldn't she give this information to the FBI?  Something to think about.

3.  FBI-  Would are favorite government police agency do that kind of thing or use corrupt police officials such as in Dallas.  The FBI finds this call credible and alerts several other FBI posts and higher up.  It is judged to keep this secret- Top Secret and not to be declassified.

4.  CIA-  She is revealing the heart of the Oswald Project.  She is revealing that there was a high level conspiracy involving government agencies. 

5.  A combination of rogue elements above. 

6.  There is a hint of cooperation between the communists and the FBI in some of the references.

"Plus, by process of elimination we should be able to narrow down who could have even known about Oswald's father and uncle...  maybe look for other GARDOS children born from 1935 to 1942 or so...  ?

This would be nice if we could find the info. 

1.  I can't find any evidence concerning the Fuhrman's being communist.  Doesn't mean they were not.  There has to be some reason Albert Jenner and John Pic omitted info on Margaret Pic's family.  If they were communist they would probably have known the Gardos in New York during the right time period.

2.  Jim Hargrove likes the Blair family as a possible place to begin looking for the mysterious caller.  I will not disagree.  We have too little information on where the Blair family members were living during the years in question.  The Blair family are what is known as likely suspects.

3.  We don't have any information on the Gardos family other than Census info, addresses, government records, and newspaper articles.  None of these really give much information on the family of the Gardos folks during the years 1940 to 1947-50. 

4.  Grace Gardo's granddaughter has been identified.  She is a Hungarian.  We don't know whether her father is John Gardos, or some as yet unidentified family member of Grace and Emil.

5.  There could be others.  FBI docs mention at least two informants.  It would be nice to know who they were. 

I really haven't paid much attention to the Grossi comments.  I should go back and read those.

"Would Fred Blair have told his wife Mary?  They did disappear for most of the 40's... right?"

I think Fred had 3 wifes.  They were Elizabeth, Naomi, and Mary.  Mary Keith was the owner of the infamous Mary's Bookshop.  Naomi was a communist poet.  I don't have any info on Elizabeth other than the record mentioning their marriage. 

Any of these women would be somewhat informed on what Fred was doing since they were communists also.  I'm sure Fred had his secrets.  There are several references about the whole Blair family being communists.

One source says Fred goes underground at the time of the Red Scare.  This is from 1946 to the mid fifties.  Another says he went underground in 1951-1955.  At some point one needs to tie Fred to the 77th Street address. 

I believe the informant was someone who lived in New York city for an extended period of time.  From the 1940s to the 1960s.  She lived in the same area (.04 to .07 miles of Yorkville) during the relevant time in order to know that Emil and Grace's son was Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey).  She had to have know Fred when he was living at 77th and Second Avenue.  Fred was mostly based in Wisconsin.  He went undercover by perhaps moving to New York, the communist capital of the US, during the Red Scare.

Do you know anything else about Lee Oswald the life guard at Lake Mendota?  He was going to the University of Wisconsin, Madison.  This was a school Fred Blair worked extensively to spread communism.

Who are the likely suspects:

1.  Mary Fuhrman or Margaret Fuhrman Pic.

2.  Blair female family members, or a wife of one of Grace's brothers.

3.  One of the wife's of Fred Blair.

4.  An unknown FBI informant.

5.  Marguerite Oswald (the short Marguerite).

6.  Marina Oswald (with a foreign accent and faking an aged voice).  This one is really stretching and the same applies to Margaret Fuhrman and Marguerite Oswald.  They were all in Texas at the time. 

7.  Whoever the mysterious caller was had to live fairly close to New Haven, Conn.  The call was said to be local.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

I'm quite anti-Facebook...  yet I guess if one puts things out there, one takes one chances....  so it's up to you...

Back to the subject....

WHO do you think are the likely candidates for those who would kill the caller if given her NAME...?

I get the impression she's more afraid of the Communists than the US government...

Plus, by process of elimination we should be able to narrow down who could have even known about Oswald's father and uncle...  maybe look for other GARDOS children born from 1935 to 1942 or so...  ?

Also the process of her finding out about Dallas Tippit and deciding to find M/M Jack Tippit in CT... where does one get the info on the OTHER Tippit's?

Interesting how GOSSI and this Jack Tippit are both artists/cartoonists fwiw....

So who, living in NYC Nov 1963 would have known about the Oswald doubling in the 40's AND know about the relationship...  and spoke with an accent....

Would Fred Blair have told his wife Mary?  They did disappear for most of the 40's... right?

DJ

David,

One part that bothers me about the call is the fact the woman kept mentioning "brother-in-law", presumably Fred Blair who certainly does fit very well. 

Yet we have no evidence that Blair and Emil Gardos were both in NYC itogether in the mid-1940's. This doesn't mean they were not there together, merely that we have no evidence. We know that Gardos, after living in NYC for a decade, was out of the country by 1950, so the 1940's (probably before 1947) is the key timeframe. We have no evidence at all that Blair was in NYC at any time. 

But more importantly, at the time of this woman's call, she was remembering events from at least 15 years before, a time when our "Oswald" was only 6 to 8 years old. What in the world made her connect the 24 year old "Lee Harvey Oswald" in 1963 with the little boy from Yorkville in the 1940's?  Why did she associate this boy with Emil Gardos and Fred Blair? If little John Gardos did indeed grow up to become our "Oswald", how in the world would this woman know that, unless he was using the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" back in the 1940's in Yorkville?

Yet, how could that be - Emil Gardos would not have already conferred the name "Oswald" on his own biological son at the time this woman caller knew them both! After all, Gardos had not yet been separated from his son! (Actually, we have no evidence they did ever separate, and we have some evidence (the 1966 FBI memo) they never did separate.)

On the other hand, if at the time our woman caller knew Gardos and the little boy, and if the little boy was already using the name "Oswald", then that would seem to be evidence that Gardos was some sort of foster figure to the boy.

Finally, I find it highly improbable that 15 years later the woman caller could or would have associated the arrested man in Dallas with Emil Gardos from the 1940's, unless she knew the boy by name. There is no way that she could have looked at the face of the arrested man in Dallas and linked him with the boy from Yorkville in the 1940's just on facial characteristics alone. 

A person's appearance changes as they grow up - as a teacher, I can assure the readership that kids' faces change tremendously every year during adolescence  and beyond.  She could not have been sure of her identification (yet she was so certain, she drove to New Haven, Connecticut to place the call!) based on physical or facial characteristics alone.

No, her identification of our "Oswald" was based on something else - she knew the Dallas man was the little boy "Oswald" from Yorkville because he was still using the same name.

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe