EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

Paul,

As a retired middle school teacher I can back up what you are saying completely, with the exception of middle girls who mature earlier than boys at that age and some are still recognizable in later years.  I can generally recognize the girls,  and I might not remember their names, but not the boys.  The boys from that age group change so much that they are not recognizable in later years.  Good point.

From what you are saying the mysterious caller probably knew the family and knew the circumstances of John Gardos becoming Lee Harvey Oswald.  If she wasn't talking about John Gardos who could she have been talking about?

  She mentions directly that Lee Harvey Oswald is the son of Emil Gardos and she knew the Uncle which she does not directly name.  The Uncle can only be Fred Blair or one of his brothers or a brother of Emil.  Fred fits the bill as the easiest and simplest answer.

Paul said, "Finally, I find it highly improbable that 15 years later the woman caller could or would have associated the arrested man in Dallas with Emil Gardos from the 1940's, unless she knew the boy by name. There is no way that she could have looked at the face of the arrested man in Dallas and linked him with the boy from Yorkville in the 1940's just on facial characteristics alone. "

If this is true then the mysterious caller must have known the circumstances of the Oswald Project and had kept up with it over time.  This may point to someone very close to the Oswalds over time, or at least someone who had a connection to the Oswalds over time.  She is claiming that John Gardos is Lee Harvey Oswald.  Could this reference the time of 1947 or before or could it reference the time 1952-1954 which would point to the Fuhrman's, mother and daughter.  By 1947, the summer and fall, Harvey is in Texas with the short Marguerite and the Gardos are still in the country. 

"No, her identification of our "Oswald" was based on something else - she knew the Dallas man was the little boy "Oswald" from Yorkville because he was still using the same name"

I'm not so sure of this.  But, it is a possibility to keep in mind barring evidence to the contrary.  If you are not right, then this could imply that this mysterious caller has a close relationship to this Oswald Project scenario.  On the other hand if you are right this still implies the same.

Maybe, we should look at the motivation of the mysterious caller and try to make sense out of it as a way to get closer to her identity.  I need to think about this.

Remember this so-called autobiography:

In this he says he has no sisters or brothers.  He states that his parents are dead.  His parents being dead or telling him his parents are dead might be a reason to put him with Marguerite Oswald.  And this would have to have happened prior to 1947 perhaps.  If this is true the mysterious caller may have only known John Gardos as Lee Harvey Oswald.  How much one can believe this autobiography is open to question since it mixes the records of Harvey and Lee.

Having no brothers and sisters might be a clue to Grace and Emil having other children in Hungary.  It might be a clue to telling Harvey in later years his parents are dead to cover up their moving to Hungary so that he would not try to look them up.

At this point we have more suppositions than answers.  We need to continue researching and thinking. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To anyone still interested in looking into John Gardos as a possible candidate for Harvey Oswald....

A couple of days ago, I sent the following question to the NYC Public Library:

Can you tell me what public elementary school a child would have attended in
1946 if he was born in 1939 and lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?

A few minutes ago I received the following answer:

Quote

Dear Jim Hargrove,

Your email has been forwarded to the Milstein Division of U.S. History, Local History and Genealogy at NYPL.  

For historical school district information, you may want to contact the Municipal Archives, which holds the NYC Board of Education Records. For additional tips on researching school, you may want to consult our division's guide Class Act: Researching New York City Schools with Local History Collections.

 

As a starting point, you may find it useful to use insurance maps to locate schools in the area of this address in 1946. The most recent digitized insurance map available on NYPL's website is from 1930; 217 E. 86th street is found on plate 115, which shows P.S. 30 as the nearest public school, on E. 88th Street. It was still there in 1952 (see attached map, accessed through the database Sanborn Maps, New York State (Geocoded), but you would have to do further research to determine if this was an elementary school.

 

We hope this information is helpful. Please let us know if we can further assist you.

Just a brief update on the above.  

Public School 30 in Manhattan was once located at 230 E. 88th St., but it is long gone.  Located there now is a 14-story apartment building that Trulia says was built in 1967.  

Manhattan’s current P.S. 30 is also called Hernandez/Hughes School and is located at 144-176 East 128th St. in Manhattan. According to its website, it is a pre-kindergarten to 5th grade elementary school.

Google has few references to the old PS 30 at 230 E. 88th St. in Manhattan.  One is from a book exactly 100 years old (published in 1919) entitled “Directory of Social and Health Agencies of New York City. “

Here is page 134 of that old book, which under “Refraction and Contagious Eye Clinics,” lists “P.S. 30, 230 East 88th St. (tel. Lenox 8391).”  Which begs the question, Was the structure at 230 E. 88th St. a public school or some sort of health facility?  

That question is answered by plate 115 of the 1930 insurance map linked by the NYPL.  

P.S. 30 in the 1919 book is clearly labeled as a New York Public School.

The question now is how to obtain detailed student information on a school that has not existed for at least forty years, and probably longer.  The answer will be, I suspect, relatively hard to find.

Since John B. located an FBI doc from 1966 indicating that Grace Gardos had a son in Budapest, it might be best to spend research efforts trying to establish if that son was John, born in 1939.  If it was, then Grace’s son John Gardos was not Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald and difficult research will not be required. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

23 hours ago, John Butler said:

Paul,

As a retired middle school teacher I can back up what you are saying completely, with the exception of middle girls who mature earlier than boys at that age and some are still recognizable in later years.  I can generally recognize the girls,  and I might not remember their names, but not the boys.  The boys from that age group change so much that they are not recognizable in later years.  Good point.

From what you are saying the mysterious caller probably knew the family and knew the circumstances of John Gardos becoming Lee Harvey Oswald.  If she wasn't talking about John Gardos who could she have been talking about?

  She mentions directly that Lee Harvey Oswald is the son of Emil Gardos and she knew the Uncle which she does not directly name.  The Uncle can only be Fred Blair or one of his brothers or a brother of Emil.  Fred fits the bill as the easiest and simplest answer.

Paul said, "Finally, I find it highly improbable that 15 years later the woman caller could or would have associated the arrested man in Dallas with Emil Gardos from the 1940's, unless she knew the boy by name. There is no way that she could have looked at the face of the arrested man in Dallas and linked him with the boy from Yorkville in the 1940's just on facial characteristics alone. "

If this is true then the mysterious caller must have known the circumstances of the Oswald Project and had kept up with it over time.  This may point to someone very close to the Oswalds over time, or at least someone who had a connection to the Oswalds over time.  She is claiming that John Gardos is Lee Harvey Oswald.  Could this reference the time of 1947 or before or could it reference the time 1952-1954 which would point to the Fuhrman's, mother and daughter.  By 1947, the summer and fall, Harvey is in Texas with the short Marguerite and the Gardos are still in the country. 

"No, her identification of our "Oswald" was based on something else - she knew the Dallas man was the little boy "Oswald" from Yorkville because he was still using the same name"

I'm not so sure of this.  But, it is a possibility to keep in mind barring evidence to the contrary.  If you are not right, then this could imply that this mysterious caller has a close relationship to this Oswald Project scenario.  On the other hand if you are right this still implies the same.

Maybe, we should look at the motivation of the mysterious caller and try to make sense out of it as a way to get closer to her identity.  I need to think about this.

Remember this so-called autobiography:

In this he says he has no sisters or brothers.  He states that his parents are dead.  His parents being dead or telling him his parents are dead might be a reason to put him with Marguerite Oswald.  And this would have to have happened prior to 1947 perhaps.  If this is true the mysterious caller may have only known John Gardos as Lee Harvey Oswald.  How much one can believe this autobiography is open to question since it mixes the records of Harvey and Lee.

Having no brothers and sisters might be a clue to Grace and Emil having other children in Hungary.  It might be a clue to telling Harvey in later years his parents are dead to cover up their moving to Hungary so that he would not try to look them up.

At this point we have more suppositions than answers.  We need to continue researching and thinking. 

John,

I agree that further research is needed.

I think this "autobiography" does establish that our "Oswald" was NOT the biological son of our "Marguerite"! (In writing this, "Oswald" not only killed off his "mother", but also his two brothers! This is so psychologically improbable as to be not worth discussing. No, "Oswald" wrote this simple statement because he truly was NOT the brother of either John Pic, Jr. or Robert E. Lee Oswald, Jr. )

I am most intrigued by "Oswald's" own twice-written statement that he  was "with the American Army."

The American Army?

He was a Jarhead, not a Grunt!

How could "Oswald" have confused his own branch of service (USMC) with its main rival, the US Army?

(Unless, of course, his time in the Corps was largely a sham, and he was really much more involved with intelligence operations than Marine Corps matters . . .)

From Quora:

Sam Allerton, works at Boeing

Answered Oct 2, 2019

 

"I attempted to answer this on April 8, 2017. Here we go again.

Check your sources and resist the urge to believe what the media purports to be true - at least on the first pass. When the media refers to members of the Army, the correct reference is “soldiers”; Navy, “Sailors”; Marine Corps, “Marines”; Air Force, “Airmen”. In 2017, any other reference is incorrect, no matter WHAT the pantywaist media would have you believe.

Marines are NOT Soldiers. They are riflemen and amphibious assault experts, meaning they are unsurpassed in attacking land based enemies from the sea. That's what Marines do. Never insult a Marine by calling him/her a “Soldier”. It might be the last mistake you ever make. Never attempt to elevate a Soldier to Marine status by mistakenly calling him/her a Marine. These are two entirely different branches of military service and they are not equal by any stretch of the imagination."

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

I agree that further research is needed.

I think this "autobiography" does establish that our "Oswald" was NOT the biological son of our "Marguerite"! (In writing this, "Oswald" not only killed off his "mother", but also his two brothers! This is so psychologically improbable as to be not worth discussing. No, "Oswald" wrote this simple statement because he truly was NOT the brother of either John Pic, Jr. or Robert E. Lee Oswald, Jr. )

I am most intrigued by the repeated statement that our "Oswald" was "with the American Army."

The American Army?

He was a Jarhead, not a Grunt!

How could "Oswald" have confused his branch of service (USMC) with its main rival, the US Army?

(Unless, of course, his time in the Corps was largely a sham, and he was really much more involved with intelligence operations than Marine Corps matters . . .)

 

 

 

Paul,

Good points your making.  This note is also written in Russian (I presume, I wouldn't know Russian if it bit me).  This definitely indicates Harvey rather than Lee Oswald.  This might mean that Harvey Oswald was first into Russia.  I believe that Lee was there also early on.  This disagrees with Jim Hargrove and John Armstrong.  That's always a risky idea.

"I think this "autobiography" does establish that our "Oswald" was NOT the biological son of our "Marguerite"! (In writing this, "Oswald" not only killed off his "mother", but also his two brothers! This is so psychologically improbable as to be not worth discussing. No, "Oswald" wrote this simple statement because he truly was NOT the brother of either John Pic, Jr. or Robert E. Lee Oswald, Jr. )"

I agree.  The autobiography statements appear to be written by the same person in both English and Russian.  The note is not dated and brings up the question when was it written.  That's important because he is displaying a knowledge of Russian,  And, who was it written for?

"I am most intrigued by the repeated statement that our "Oswald" was "with the American Army."

I think what Harvey was saying is that he was in the Marines, but was stationed with the American Army in Japan and the Philippines.  I take this to mean he was stationed for some period of time with the American Army taking two training classes.  This is the important part of these statements to me.  It is saying that he received his training in electronics (aviation) and radio operation (radar training) with the American Army and not at other Air Force or Navy bases such  Fort Jackson or Memphis or Biloxi.  There is good evidence contradicting this in Harvey and Lee. 

In other words Harvey's training information has been merged with Lee's training information.  I base this on the contradictory information on their training in Florida, Tennessee, and Mississippi.  And, the following photo has to be explained some how with who this really is:

It is not Harvey or Lee.  It is a composite of both.  I believe this was once Lee Oswald (the real Lee Harvey Oswald) and he was edited out and replaced with an image of Harvey.  After all Harvey was supposed to have trained at this school.  I don't believe Harvey did based on this photo.  There are minor things visible which show that this is a composite photo.  The real evidence this is a composite is in the next photo.

   

The left arm and shoulder are unnatural and can not be explained any other way.  No other serviceman has such a deformity.  The left side of the Oswald figure is Harvey and the right side is Lee.  I base this on the idea that Lee was bigger and huskier than Harvey. 

This photo means that Harvey was probably not at this Air Force base for training.  He may very well received training with the American Army to hide his records of training.  If so it gives credibility to the whole autobiography note, particularly the info on family.  This is contrary to the records of training given to us by John Armstrong.  Those records are somewhat confusing in the sense they don't say what Harvey did at Jacksonville once he was sent there.

"How could "Oswald" have confused his branch of service (USMC) with its main rival, the US Army?

(Unless, of course, his time in the Corps was largely a sham, and he was really much more involved with intelligence operations than Marine Corps matters . . .)"

He didn't confuse his service branch with the Army.  Marines are too proud to do that.  Harvey wore his Marine Corps ring always.  The second statement on intelligence work is demonstrated by spending a year in New Orleans while Lee was at Atsugi, Japan.  He was working at a dental lab during that year.  What else was he doing? 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, John Butler said:

It is not Harvey or Lee.  It is a composite of both

I really wish you wouldn't come to absolute conclusions and then offer them as such John....

Until you can actually PROVE an image has been altered, your track record in coming to conclusions regarding images is pretty poor....

I'm not going to get into it with you now... but the image and anomaly you describe are not signs of alteration...

BTW - if you look at his Marine record - it state4s he was an aircraft MECHANIC, not a radar operator...

JA shows how the courses he took where slightly different than the courses Harvey did....    but please take a moment BEFORE your image alteration conclusions to consider what you're saying... and why.

Thanks
DJ

[John Butler]

David,

I did make that consideration.  I did mention that Harvey and Lee has good and contradictory evidence for what I am saying.  And, your right about making absolute conclusions about things.  I guess it is my way of getting attention for what's being said.  I'm working alone on this and have no way other than feedback to verify what I am saying.  Or, in the case of speculation whether it should be dropped or looked into further.  In my old age I make far to many errors to go on checked with what I am saying.

Another weakness I have is refuting my own conclusions.  These statements were based on the autobiography note and the Air Force training class photo.  I understand all the contradictions to what I am saying to that in Harvey and Lee.  I am speculating that the difference in courses could be based on this autobiography note saying Harvey took two classes while based with the American Army.  It is something to think about.  Many pieces of evidence in the Lee Harvey Oswald story is contradictory, and leads one to question everything.  Questioning everything is better than blindly accepting the WC and other Lone Nut variations.  It also leads to questioning the accepted evidence for the Harvey and Lee story.  As I said earlier that is always a risky business. 

"I'm not going to get into it with you now... but the image and anomaly you describe are not signs of alteration..."

We'll just have to disagree on the photo alteration unless you can provide me with a reasonable solution as to why the shoulders appear to be deformed. 

"BTW - if you look at his Marine record - it state4s he was an aircraft MECHANIC, not a radar operator..."  Harvey's discharge paper says he was a radio operator not a radar operator.

There has to be some explanation for that photo.  The right side shoulder is much larger than the left side shoulder.  It is deformed situation which neither Harvey or Lee possess.  I can think of no reasonable answer for that.  And, someone else thought that when they cropped the photo to just the Oswald figure and left the rest of the class out.  Which brings me to the subject of photo alteration and your take on who is doing the alteration.

I believe, since the FBI seized all of the photo material from the Paine's garage and everywhere else they could find material, that the FBI and maybe farming out material to the CIA are responsible for the alterations we find in the record.  They couldn't do things like the New Orleans high school photo of Lee Oswald and didn't do things where the imagery is too small and vague to matter. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

A correction on an earlier point for info omitted.  Harvey's discharge papers list his training specialities as Aviation Electronic operator.  This has a MOS code of 6741.  This is a real code describing real training in a particular field.  Harvey's discharge papers also say he was a radio operator and provides a number which could be a MOS code or taken as such.  However, the number 0-61-30 does not apply to a Military Occupational Speciality.  The numbers are neither a Marine or Army MOS code.

There is also evidence that an Oswald, Lee, worked at aircraft maintenance and repair.

"In the fall of 1956, while HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were stationed at San Diego, LEE Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility at El Toro, CA, 10 miles south of Camp Pendleton. It was in El Toro that Sergeant Wallace Ransberger first met Private First Class LEE Oswald, and a year later associated with him at Atsugi, Japan. Ransberger and LEE Oswald were assigned to the same unit and their duties were to furnish repair parts for vehicles and generators."

This brings up another problem the differences in rank between Lee Oswald (PFC) and Harvey (PVT) in the fall of 1956.  This could mean that Lee entered the Marine Corps as much as six months earlier than Harvey.  Harvey doesn't get to be a PFC until the following year, if my memory serves, in May of 1957.  It is another foundation block in the story of Harvey and Lee. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

3 minutes ago, John Butler said:

This brings up another problem the differences in rank between Lee Oswald (PFC) and Harvey (PVT) in the fall of 1956.  This could mean that Lee entered the Marine Corps as much as six months earlier than Harvey.  Harvey doesn't get to be a PFC until the following year, if my memory serves, in May of 1957.  It is another foundation block in the story of Harvey and Lee. 

You make some interesting points and some good observations John... thanks...  

Yet I don't think activity at this late a date has much to do with the addition of a NY Hungarian to the mix.... 

The "6-month" period you discuss dovetails directly into this statement from GORSKY... Instead of Sept 11, 1959... 6 months earlier is MARCH 1959:

In the spring of 1959 Major William P Gorsky was the Assistant Provost Marshall at the Marine Corps Air Station at El Toro. According to Gorsky's files LEE Oswald had been arrested for hitch hiking and was discharged from the marines in March, 1959. Once again the FBI and Warren Commission avoided this problem by simply failing to conduct a proper investigation and failing to obtain Oswald's discharge papers from Major Gorsky. Their refusal to investigate LEE Oswald in El Toro, or interview Marines who knew him, is another very important "smoking gun."

Yet at the same time, as you admit, there are some misstatements:

18 minutes ago, John Butler said:

However, the number 0-61-30 does not apply to a Military Occupational Speciality.

No it doesn't and for good reason... more importantly, it does not say "RADAR" Operator....

Occupational guide : job description for radio operator I 0-61.30, United States Employment Service, United States Department of Labor

0-61.30 refers specifically to "Gov service"....  what you seem to have missed was what it says in the box near 0-61.30:

"Related Civilian Occupation"

 

and the related Military Specialties in the 6700 series:
6700 Basic Air Control/Anti-Air Warfare Man
6711 Air Traffic Controller-Tower Trainee
6712 Air Traffic Controller-Tower
6721 Air Traffic Controller-Radar Trainee
6722 Air Traffic Controller-Radar
6724 Air Traffic Controller
6741 Aviation Electronics Operator
6751 Air Control/Anti-Air Warfare Operator, Trainee
6752 Redeye Gunner
6753 HAWK Missile System Operator
6754 Anti-Air Warfare Batteryman
6755 System, Air Control Electronics Operator, Manual
6756 System, Air Control Electronics Operator, Automated
6757 Air Support Operations Operator
6758 Air Controller, Automated Systems
6759 Supervisor, Air Command, Control and Defense System
6781 Airborne Radio Operator, Trainee
6782 Airborne Radio Operator
6785 Aerial Navigator, Trainee
6786 Aerial Navigator
6788 Airborne Electronic Countermeasures Operator

 

Also - the course THEY claim he took is for AIRCRAFT EARLY WARNING - and not aircraft mechanic

 

http://link.library.in.gov/portal/Occupational-guide--job-description-for-radio/ccqHpZ_pPsg/

https://books.google.com/books?id=jGF321JtLocC&pg=PA13-IA9&lpg=PA13-IA9&dq=Radio+Operator+0-61.30&source=bl&ots=IN9anHCsvw&sig=ACfU3U30lwdmnU-We4eoTnTCaUHM_aWtSQ&hl=en&ppis=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiAuqKI5brmAhWH_J4KHQJeCbsQ6AEwAnoECAcQAg#v=onepage&q=Radio%20Operator%200-61.30&f=false

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Paul,

Good points your making.  This note is also written in Russian (I presume, I wouldn't know Russian if it bit me).  This definitely indicates Harvey rather than Lee Oswald.  This might mean that Harvey Oswald was first into Russia.  I believe that Lee was there also early on.  This disagrees with Jim Hargrove and John Armstrong.  That's always a risky idea.

"I think this "autobiography" does establish that our "Oswald" was NOT the biological son of our "Marguerite"! (In writing this, "Oswald" not only killed off his "mother", but also his two brothers! This is so psychologically improbable as to be not worth discussing. No, "Oswald" wrote this simple statement because he truly was NOT the brother of either John Pic, Jr. or Robert E. Lee Oswald, Jr. )"

I agree.  The autobiography statements appear to be written by the same person in both English and Russian.  The note is not dated and brings up the question when was it written.  That's important because he is displaying a knowledge of Russian,  And, who was it written for?

"I am most intrigued by the repeated statement that our "Oswald" was "with the American Army."

I think what Harvey was saying is that he was in the Marines, but was stationed with the American Army in Japan and the Philippines.  I take this to mean he was stationed for some period of time with the American Army taking two training classes.  This is the important part of these statements to me.  It is saying that he received his training in electronics (aviation) and radio operation (radar training) with the American Army and not at other Air Force or Navy bases such  Fort Jackson or Memphis or Biloxi.  There is good evidence contradicting this in Harvey and Lee. 

In other words Harvey's training information has been merged with Lee's training information.  I base this on the contradictory information on their training in Florida, Tennessee, and Mississippi.  And, the following photo has to be explained some how with who this really is:

It is not Harvey or Lee.  It is a composite of both.  I believe this was once Lee Oswald (the real Lee Harvey Oswald) and he was edited out and replaced with an image of Harvey.  After all Harvey was supposed to have trained at this school.  I don't believe Harvey did based on this photo.  There are minor things visible which show that this is a composite photo.  The real evidence this is a composite is in the next photo.

   

The left arm and shoulder are unnatural and can not be explained any other way.  No other serviceman has such a deformity.  The left side of the Oswald figure is Harvey and the right side is Lee.  I base this on the idea that Lee was bigger and huskier than Harvey. 

This photo means that Harvey was probably not at this Air Force base for training.  He may very well received training with the American Army to hide his records of training.  If so it gives credibility to the whole autobiography note, particularly the info on family.  This is contrary to the records of training given to us by John Armstrong.  Those records are somewhat confusing in the sense they don't say what Harvey did at Jacksonville once he was sent there.

"How could "Oswald" have confused his branch of service (USMC) with its main rival, the US Army?

(Unless, of course, his time in the Corps was largely a sham, and he was really much more involved with intelligence operations than Marine Corps matters . . .)"

He didn't confuse his service branch with the Army.  Marines are too proud to do that.  Harvey wore his Marine Corps ring always.  The second statement on intelligence work is demonstrated by spending a year in New Orleans while Lee was at Atsugi, Japan.  He was working at a dental lab during that year.  What else was he doing? 

 

 

John,

No offense, but it is inconceivable to me that a genuine United States Marine, stationed at the Naval Air Station Atsugi in 1957-58 under any circumstances could ever possibly write "I was with the American Army", not once, but TWICE in the space of three sentences! I mean, as far as we know, "Oswald" was never associated in any way with the United States Army! He never served on an Army base, he never carried out an Army mission. We don't believe he even knew Army soldiers between 1956 and 1959. 

Yet there it is: "Oswald" wrote it twice. '

Now, I don't believe he ever served with the Army. I think it is much more likely that he spent a little time in the USMC, but his primary mission/allegiance was to American Intelligence. Perhaps the ONI, perhaps O2, perhaps some other outfit.

My point is he was so lackadaisical about his military service that when writing this "autobiography", he made an impossible gaffe, if he were a genuine Marine. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[David Josephs]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

The left arm and shoulder are unnatural and can not be explained any other way.  No other serviceman has such a deformity.  The left side of the Oswald figure is Harvey and the right side is Lee.  I base this on the idea that Lee was bigger and huskier than Harvey. 

OK John... if you look at that image closely you can see it's a photo of a photo taken at an angle as it sits on a table...  

At the top left you can see the edge of the actual photo being photographed...  the angle creates a skewing of the image

Here is the same thing un-skewed....  not perfect but much closer to the actual original image than what you posted....

As I said, image manipulation was only done IF NECESSARY...  and how many times do you suppose images of Lee and Harvey would ever actually be seen together?

They wouldn't....

 

The very last image of LEE is his PASSPORT PHOTO from 1959, under the image of Lee you posted....

 

[David Josephs]

On 12/14/2019 at 5:00 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

To anyone still interested in looking into John Gardos as a possible candidate for Harvey Oswald....

A couple of days ago, I sent the following question to the NYC Public Library:

Can you tell me what public elementary school a child would have attended in
1946 if he was born in 1939 and lived at 217 E. 86th St. in Manhattan?

A few minutes ago I received the following answer:

 

On that same website if you scroll down from the 1930 Manhattan map, they offer a 1955-56 map.

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/collections/atlases-of-new-york-city#/?tab=navigation&roots=3:02b2b6e0-bc6a-0132-6e72-58d385a7bbd0/30:705375b0-4662-0132-e8b4-58d385a7bbd0      

PS 30 still exists on the 1955/56 map at 230 E 88th 
PS 151 at 1761 1st Ave and 91st street is literally around the corner from the PIC apartment and there in 1955
 

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

No offense, but it is inconceivable to me that a genuine United States Marine, stationed at the Naval Air Station Atsugi in 1957-58 under any circumstances could ever possibly write "I was with the American Army", not once, but TWICE in the space of three sentences! I mean, as far as we know, "Oswald" was never associated in any way with the United States Army! He never served on an Army base, he never carried out an Army mission. We don't believe he even knew Army soldiers between 1956 and 1959. 

Yet there it is: "Oswald" wrote it twice. '

Now, I don't believe he ever served with the Army. I think it is much more likely that he spent a little time in the USMC, but his primary mission/allegiance was to American Intelligence. Perhaps the ONI, perhaps O2, perhaps some other outfit.

My point is he was so lackadaisical about his military service that when writing this "autobiography", he made an impossible gaffe, if he were a genuine Marine. 

Paul,

I agree Marines are too proud to say they were Army.  What I said was "He didn't confuse his service branch with the Army.  Marines are too proud to do that.  Harvey wore his Marine Corps ring always."  But, like you say there it is.   

This whole note is strange.  I'm not going to speculate on it again until I find out who it was to and when it was written.

Thanks, Paul. 

[John Butler]

30 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

On that same website if you scroll down from the 1930 Manhattan map, they offer a 1955-56 map.

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/collections/atlases-of-new-york-city#/?tab=navigation&roots=3:02b2b6e0-bc6a-0132-6e72-58d385a7bbd0/30:705375b0-4662-0132-e8b4-58d385a7bbd0      

PS 30 still exists on the 1955/56 map at 230 E 88th 
PS 151 at 1761 1st Ave and 91st street is literally around the corner from the PIC apartment and there in 1955
 

David,

If both schools were there in 1952 then which is the one Oswald rejected and went elsewhere?

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

OK John... if you look at that image closely you can see it's a photo of a photo taken at an angle as it sits on a table...  

At the top left you can see the edge of the actual photo being photographed...  the angle creates a skewing of the image

Here is the same thing un-skewed....  not perfect but much closer to the actual original image than what you posted....

As I said, image manipulation was only done IF NECESSARY...  and how many times do you suppose images of Lee and Harvey would ever actually be seen together?

They wouldn't....

 

The very last image of LEE is his PASSPORT PHOTO from 1959, under the image of Lee you posted....

 

David,

If what you say is so, then why isn't this effect shown on anyone else in the photo?  The Oswald figure stands out from the rest as abnormal.  Even with your correction there is still a missing or deformed arm to explain. 

Can you identify what the red arrow is pointing to.  Notice the two Marines above do not have this feature. 

I think this is another example of compositing.  It appears to be part of a shoulder strap for a harness to hold a back pack or what was called in those days an "ass' pack and now a days called a butt pack.

[David Josephs]

6 minutes ago, John Butler said:

David,

If both schools were there in 1952 then which is the one Oswald rejected and went elsewhere?

Not sure....  also not sure if they are Elementary or Middle schools... just that they are much closer to the PIC's than Yorkville High.

PIC does testify to a school:  Mr. PIC - No, sir; my mother did. I think this is a public school in New York City located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him.

That would be PS 30 - 230 88th St between 2nd and 3rd.... but since it is no longer there, I haven't been able to find out if it has a 7th and 8th grade....
yet unlike 2nd and 77th, this is around the corner from 87th and 2nd... if the FBI was messing with the addresses as 77th is not in Yorkville.

2 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Can you identify what the red arrow is pointing to.  Notice the two Marines above do not have this feature. 

Lee is holding his left arm behind his body... and is at the very edge of the photo...  the others do not have their arms like that and are not at the edge....

Look again at the top left of your image... that shows the ANGLE at which the photo is laying on the table in relation to the camera....

Lay a photo on a table and then look at it thru the lens of a camera... not straight down at it but at the angle we see in the photo of the photo you posted...

I think you will then see what I mean

DJ