Oswald in Mexico

[Ron Ecker]

Ron, are you familiar with this story it seems to provide a dimension to Oswalds Mexico City sojournings heretofore undisclosed.

Philadelphia Quakers

With Oswald in Mexico City

By Bill Kelly

Robert,

No, I wasn't familiar with this story. Is this covered in the Lopez Report (I haven't read it yet)?

Ron

[Robert Howard]

Ron, are you familiar with this story it seems to provide a dimension to Oswalds Mexico City sojournings heretofore undisclosed.

Philadelphia Quakers

With Oswald in Mexico City

By Bill Kelly

Robert,

No, I wasn't familiar with this story. Is this covered in the Lopez Report (I haven't read it yet)?

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It has been awhile since I read the Lopez Report and I honestly do not remember, It alludes to Oswald possibly contacting students at the National Autonomous University of Mexico, and I believe that it references LI/ENVOY intercepts in the footnotes, but I don't think it references Larry Kennan or LI/COZY. Hell, when I was perusing the Lopez Report there were parts of it that appeared to demonstrate a lack of effort on both the part of the CIA and the Mexican government to locate individuals that the HSCA wanted to interview, maybe it was because there were so few people that they were able to locate. But then again I trust some of the major players in the "JFK Story" about as far as I can throw a stick. I've talked to Mr Kelly recently and more information may be forthcoming.

[Bernice Moore]

Bernice, you failed to quote the most pertinent passage in the article with respect to Torbitt's allegations about Osborne as a master of assassins.

"At some point 'one of the conspirators (in the Buddy Floyd murder),' according to Torbitt, gave 'pertinent information' to 'Bill Allcorn, special assistant Attorney General of Texas' who helped work on the Floyd case. What this accomplice allegedly revealed was the existence of the 25 to 30 professional assassins kept in Mexico, with the contact man for employing them being John Howard Bowen, reachable through the owner of the St. Anthony Hotel in Laredo. 60

"In sum, then, any evidence that Osborne led a group of 25 to 30 assassins is not to be found in any trial transcript from the Buddy Floyd murder case (Sapet v. State, 256 SW2nd 154), but rather, according to Torbitt, in the 'Bill Allcorn private file' on that case."

I don't consider what some unnamed informant allegedly told lawyer Bill Allcorn, who allegedly buried the info in a 'private file,' to be evidence of anything. If Allcorn, his heirs, or some enterprising researcher were to dig this alleged info out of that alleged private file after all these years and share it with the world, then that could be of significance.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*******

Hi There Ron:

I failed to post 99% of that site.....much too long to post all on the F,

as you are well aware...

I do not throw any of the "Babies out."...nor ignore them ,as we never know

what may be dug out in the future..

You seem to, well, that's your perogative..

It would be grand but we are never going to obtain all the

documents ,evidence and such in this case ,too much has been deliberately

destroyed...and lost ..IMO..

I hope you enjoy..Bill Kelly's researched article, which I believe I

supplied to Robert, as he does seem to have an open mind and be

interested in all....

Such a pleasure...to try to chat with you...

B

Edited October 1, 2005 by Bernice Moore

[Tim Gratz]

In my opinion, one of two thing was going on in Mexico City:

1) Oswald was acting as an agent provocateur for US intelligence in an attempt to determine whether Castro was serious in his September 7th threat to retaliate against US leaders;

and/or

2) it was a CIA plan to use Oswald's left-wing credentials to obtain a VISA to Cuba to infiltrate a trained assassin into Cuba to finish Castro once and for all.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

In my opinion, one of two thing was going on in Mexico City:

1)  Oswald was acting as an agent provocateur for US intelligence in an attempt to determine whether Castro was serious in his September 7th threat to retaliate against US leaders;

and/or

2)  it was a CIA plan to use Oswald's left-wing credentials to obtain a VISA to Cuba to infiltrate a trained assassin into Cuba to finish Castro once and for all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, my speculation on this thread, and it is I assure you, the purest, of pure speculation, is that had Oswald managed to gain entry to Cuba it may well have proved, in the publics minds at least, the final peice of evidence that tied Oswald to Castro, and thereby Castro to the assassination.

[Ron Ecker]

It's my speculation that Oswald had no intention of actually getting a visa to Cuba. Although Oswald was in Mexico City, an imposter was used in the attempt to get the visa. This is known not just from the photos of someone who isn't Oswald, but the statements of embassy personnel. Now why would someone other than a criminal who wanted to get a visa send an imposter to get it? What chance is there of succeeding in such a manner? Perhaps it's easy, perhaps foreign embassies are easily duped by imposters, but I still don't see the point in Oswald's case if it was a sincere attempt to get a visa.

This was another case of an Oswald imposter creating an incident, being publicly obnoxious in order to be remembered by the people he was dealing with. More importantly for the conspirators, it established for the record that Oswald was in contact with Castro Cubans in Mexico City. Oswald did not have to go to Cuba to be in cahoots with Castro when he returned from Mexico.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Ron, just for the record, was it Ascue, or Duran who claimed it was a phoney Oswald.

[Ron Ecker]

Stephen,

I'm not familiar with the details, but as I recall at least two people, Duran and a superior (Ascue?), said the man they dealt with wasn't Oswald.

Ron

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Oswalds behaviour on the bus journey is, at least, very suspicious simply because it goes completely against the grain of what we have been told about LHO. He apparantly went out of his way to ensure that several fellow pasengers would have no problem remembering him. He leaves his seat to talk with two Australian women at the back of the bus, he talks to them, at length, about his time in the Marines, and the Soviet Union, he even shows them an old 1959 passport to prove he had lived in Russia. He also began a conversation with a British couple from Liverpool, The McFarlands,They had good cause to remember him, he told them he had been secretary of the FPCC in New Orleans, and that he hoped to meet with Fidel Castro in Havana, all this at a time of high tension between Cuba, and the US, when Americans risked prosecusion for visiting Cuba. Does this sound like the normally taciturn Oswald who can barely bring himself to converse with relatives and friends, let alone total strangers? I think it is fair to assume that the Oswald of W/C, Posner legend would not have behaved in this extraordinary fasion. Isn't it amazing how Oswald only acts out like this to draw attention to his supposed left wing activities, in the Marines, the American Embassey in Moscow, leafleting for the FPCC, etc. I believe this is either an Oswald impersonator, or Oswald under orders to draw attention to himself, his politics, and his destination.

[Ron Ecker]

I'm inclined to agree with Armstrong that the Oswald on the bus was "Lee" (the bigger, friendlier Oswald) and not "Harvey" (the smaller, unsociable speaker of Russian).

Also, with respect to the CIA claim that Sylvia Duran had an affair with Oswald in Mexico City, it's at least believable that she might have one with Lee, but not with Harvey. (To put it another way, when you've seen one Oswald, you haven't seen them all.)

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I'm inclined to agree with Armstrong that the Oswald on the bus was "Lee" (the bigger, friendlier Oswald) and not "Harvey" (the smaller, unsociable speaker of Russian).

Also, with respect to the CIA claim that Sylvia Duran had an affair with Oswald in Mexico City, it's at least believable that she might have one with Lee, but not with Harvey. (To put it another way, when you've seen one Oswald, you haven't seen them all.)

Ron, I'm not sure how deeply I buy into Mr Armstrongs story, but certainly, if true, it would solve a lot of mysteries swirling around the Mexican adventure. Steve.

[Chuck Robbins]

I'm inclined to agree with Armstrong that the Oswald on the bus was "Lee" (the bigger, friendlier Oswald) and not "Harvey" (the smaller, unsociable speaker of Russian).

Also, with respect to the CIA claim that Sylvia Duran had an affair with Oswald in Mexico City, it's at least believable that she might have one with Lee, but not with Harvey. (To put it another way, when you've seen one Oswald, you haven't seen them all.)

The description of LHO given in the Mexico City documents is of a 5'10" 165 lb. man.

The little guy in Dallas was 5'8" and all of 145 lbs. Sounds like two Oswalds to me.

By the way, who was JC, Chief of the WH Division? Win Scott wrote to him regarding the photo showing someone who is "lho", but clearly isn't LHO.

I have to ask. How was it possible for the CIA to have it both ways?

They think it is a photo of LHO, but, in the same letter, Win says that JC knows the person in the photo. Then it is finally determined that the photo is not of LHO, and the person is said to be a person unknown.

Still, they do not wish to embarrass this unknown individual by publishing his photo in connection with the investigation of the assassination? Maybe I am missing something somewhere?

Chuck

[George Bollschweiler]

It's my speculation that Oswald had no intention of actually getting a visa to Cuba. Although Oswald was in Mexico City, an imposter was used in the attempt to get the visa. This is known not just from the photos of someone who isn't Oswald, but the statements of embassy personnel. Now why would someone other than a criminal who wanted to get a visa send an imposter to get it? What chance is there of succeeding in such a manner? Perhaps it's easy, perhaps foreign embassies are easily duped by imposters, but I still don't see the point in Oswald's case if it was a sincere attempt to get a visa.

This was another case of an Oswald imposter creating an incident, being publicly obnoxious in order to be remembered by the people he was dealing with. More importantly for the conspirators, it established for the record that Oswald was in contact with Castro Cubans in Mexico City. Oswald did not have to go to Cuba to be in cahoots with Castro when he returned from Mexico.

Ron,

Considering Robert Tannenbaum is credible and IMO he is, the question why the picture does not show Oswald has been answered by Tannenbaum, it was simply due to a mistake.

Here his statement during the hearing in LA.

Coming again from the office of Frank Hogan, which from my experience was an apolitical meritocracy, I was stunned with that kind of revelation. It didn't --- that was, you know, one of many. I was also stunned and sadly disappointed when David Phillips gave testimony before the Committee in Executive Session and in fact lied to the Committee. He told the Committee [that] on or about October 1st, 1963 Lee Harvey Oswald went to Mexico City and in Mexico City went to the Russian Embassy and telephoned the Cuban Embassy. And that photograph of him were taken and there was a tape recording of that conversation. We found out, bottom line, that the photographic equipment had broken down. He indicated so that the wrong photograph of Oswald with the wrong description on the telex of Oswald's alleged appearance in Mexico City was sent out to the Executive Intelligence agencies and otherwise. And so they didn't have the real photograph.

George

[Ron Ecker]

George,

"It was simply due to a mistake"? Perhaps you are being sarcastic. In any case, there is an excellent analogy to Phillips saying there were photographs taken of Oswald in Mexico City, only to have the HSCA later learn that "the photographic equipment had broken down" and there were no photos. Or perhaps I should call this a common pattern in criminal behavior, especially when the death of an important politician is involved. The doctor who did the autopsy on White House counsel Vince Foster checked "yes" on the autopsy report where it asked "X-rays taken." But it turned out there were no X-rays. The doctor told the FBI that the X-ray machine was inoperable. (The firm that maintained the machine said there was nothing wrong with it.) So a White House counsel gets autopsied without benefit of a single (still existent) X-ray. (I could also mention the X-ray of dead Secretary of Commerce Ron Brown's head that turned out to be "missing," but this stuff can get very repetitious.)

Ron

Edited October 21, 2005 by Ron Ecker

[Steve Thomas]

Robert,

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron, are you familiar with this story it seems to provide a dimension to Oswalds Mexico City sojournings heretofore undisclosed.

If you study the FBI's Cointelpro documents, one of the groups targeted was the Friends, because of their anti-nuclear stance.

I once tried to find Ruth Paine's name in the Cointelpro documents coming out of Pennsylvania, but didn't find any.

Steve Thomas