HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.

[Chris Davidson]

On 1/24/2017 at 1:31 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

 

How long after Shelley/Lovelady left the steps did they turn and see Baker/Truly?

Here is Sandy's timeline from his first post in this thread...

 

Query: Is "04:30  Shelley & Lovelady leave island, fast-walk toward railroad yard. After first 15 to 25 steps, Lovelady looks back and sees Truly & Baker enter the TSBD. (There are 75 to 100 yards to railroad yard.)" a 'fair time' to put on it. That is to say, is 1:30 a 'fair' time after their leaving the steps for Truly & Baker to enter the TSBD?

From Shelley's WC testimony;

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes

From Lovelady's WC testimony;

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Note: Shelley says they were on the island when they looked back to see Truly and Baker going in to the building, 3 or 4 minutes after the shots.
Note: Lovelady at no point says they were on the island, he does say, earlier in his WC testimony, and I quote, "we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street".
Note: Lovelady says they were (maybe) 25 steps away from the building when he looked back and saw Truly and Baker run in to the building.

Query: How long would 25 steps take? Average time to walk 100 metres = 1 minute. Average step length = 2.6ft (31 inches). 2.6ft * 25 steps = distance of 65ft, converted to metres = 19.812. - round up to 20 (for ease of calculation) Average time to walk 20 metres = 12 seconds. Too soon? Perhaps he walked slower, or perhaps he walked further...  reasonable time to put it at (especially for ease of calculation) 25 steps; 1 step per second; round up to nearest full number = 30 seconds! Reasonable and practical inference of time.

Aside note (personal opinion - text hidden because of that):( Wouldn't surprise me if Sandy made the claim that I was 'putting words in to Lovelady's mouth' at this point, ironically by his own timeline he has Lovelady on the island (which Lovelady never said) and also has Lovelady seeing Truly/Baker enter the building 90 seconds after leaving the steps, whilst Lovelady actually said that he had only gone (maximum) of 25 steps away from the building after leaving the steps before seeing Truly/Baker enter the building - taking 90 seconds to walk 25 steps does not commute. )

Conclusion: Seeing Baker/Truly enter the building 04:30 after the shots is 30 seconds more than Shelley's top estimate, and is (arguably) (at a mininum) one minute more than what Lovelady said. Reasonable time to put the incident at? Proposal: 30 seconds after they left the steps.

Timeline:

12:30:00 shots
12:33:00 Shelley/Lovelady leave steps
12:33:30 Truly/Baker 'enter' TSBD

Sandy, at this point do you accept, for the purposes of moving the discussion forward, that 'proposal' on the time?

Regards

Pretend these two gentlemen are Lovelady and Shelley after hearing the last shot.

The recreation was shot with a 16mm camera (24fps) by Underwood.

The two gentlemen on the stairs are approx two seconds apart, so someone starting at the landing, walking down the stairs and someone near the middle step will end up approx where you see them after (86 progressive frames/5.6seconds). 

How far West would they end up in 20-30 seconds?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWlo5Q3FxdDRaU1U/view?usp=sharing

[Alistair Briggs]

27 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

How far West would they end up in 20-30 seconds?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWlo5Q3FxdDRaU1U/view?usp=sharing

Quite far? Maybe to where the 'diamond shapes' are or further...

(Just for clarity, Chris, my own opinion is that the two characters seen walking down the street in the clip that Baker can be seen running across the road are Shelley and Lovelady. )

 

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 0:04 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Pretend these two gentlemen are Lovelady and Shelley after hearing the last shot.

The recreation was shot with a 16mm camera (24fps) by Underwood.

The two gentlemen on the stairs are approx two seconds apart, so someone starting at the landing, walking down the stairs and someone near the middle step will end up approx where you see them after (86 progressive frames/5.6seconds). 

How far West would they end up in 20-30 seconds?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWlo5Q3FxdDRaU1U/view?usp=sharing

Chris,

Pretending those two suited men walking out the TSBD were Shelley and Lovelady, and watching them for 4 seconds, and watching how far they went, I would say that in 20-30 seconds they would already be on that "little old island" across the driveway in front of the TSBD, and even on the lawn of that "island," on the way to the monument on the Grassy Knoll.

I've been to the TSBD and the Grassy Knoll, and IMHO it's a lot smaller than it looks on film.   Running from the Zapruder position to the front of the TSBD steps, it would take an average high-school girl 10 seconds to dash that distance.  It's less than 50 yards.

Why do you ask?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 17, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Guest]

How far would they end up in 20-30 secs?

Far enough to help the shooters fold up their gear and escort them to safety

[Bill Miller]

11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

How far would they end up in 20-30 secs?

Far enough to help the shooters fold up their gear and escort them to safety

And to look back and see Truly and Officer Baker moving and about to  enter the door of the TSBD.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

And to look back and see Truly and Officer Baker moving and about to  enter the door of the TSBD.

Keep dreaming and speculating Bill.

[Bill Miller]

12 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Keep dreaming and speculating Bill.

Are you suggesting that I dreamed there were people already in the building who saw the first people entering the doorway as being Truly and a Policeman?

Edited February 18, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/23/2017 at 4:37 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

On 1/23/2017 at 3:18 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Alistair Briggs claims that the testimonies of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady -- specifically regarding their claim that they left the TSBD steps about three minutes after the shooting -- contradict the testimonies of the people he lists in this paragraph:

 

I don't claim that!

What I 'claim' is that the thought that Shelley/Lovelady left the steps after 3 minutes causes problems elsewhere, it's not necessarily about contradicting Shelley/Lovelady directly in and of itself, it is also about the knock on effect which can be 'indirect'...

One of the definitions of contradict is "to conflict with." That is the one I meant.

[Bill Miller]

On 1/4/2017 at 3:32 PM, David Josephs said:

Did it ever occur to you that you run up an incline of steps to a landing and then turn and go up a second incline to equal one floor. To someone who didn't know the building could miss this point - could they not. The important thing is there was only one lunchroom where a soda machine sat.

According to witnesses - there was no one seen on the first floor when Truly and patrolman Baker immediately came through the door. They immediately went across the room and tried to first get the elevator, but quickly decided to take the stairs. The run of two inclines of stairs to get to the second floor could have seemed like the third floor to Baker.

[Bill Miller]

On 1/28/2017 at 0:04 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Pretend these two gentlemen are Lovelady and Shelley after hearing the last shot.

The recreation was shot with a 16mm camera (24fps) by Underwood.

The two gentlemen on the stairs are approx two seconds apart, so someone starting at the landing, walking down the stairs and someone near the middle step will end up approx where you see them after (86 progressive frames/5.6seconds). 

How far West would they end up in 20-30 seconds?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWlo5Q3FxdDRaU1U/view?usp=sharing

I don't get the point ... are you trying to guess how far they would have walked had they bolted off the steps at the sound of gunfire or how far  they would have gone just as Patrolman Baker was dismounting his motorcycle?

[Bill Miller]

On 1/28/2017 at 0:35 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Quite far? Maybe to where the 'diamond shapes' are or further...

(Just for clarity, Chris, my own opinion is that the two characters seen walking down the street in the clip that Baker can be seen running across the road are Shelley and Lovelady. )

 

Certainly one of them has the Bill Shelley hairdo.  

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

One of the definitions of contradict is "to conflict with." That is the one I meant.

Regardless of what 'definition' of contradict you want to use, (and I have no problem with you using it to mean 'to conflict with'), the fact remains that when you said the following;

On 23/01/2017 at 10:18 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Alistair Briggs claims that the testimonies of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady -- specifically regarding their claim that they left the TSBD steps about three minutes after the shooting -- contradict the testimonies of the people he lists in this paragraph:

That is utter tosh, as I never made such a claim...

To be fair, I suppose if 'contradict' was changed to 'conflict with' it would be closer to what I 'claimed' but still wouldn't be what I claimed.

For posterirty here is more of what I said that you chose (for whatever reason) not to quote. (emphasis added);

On 23/01/2017 at 11:37 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

I don't claim that!

What I 'claim' is that the thought that Shelley/Lovelady left the steps after 3 minutes causes problems elsewhere, it's not necessarily about contradicting Shelley/Lovelady directly in and of itself, it is also about the knock on effect which can be 'indirect'...

Slight difference, but a very important one.
(Sandy, if you can't see what the difference is, maybe I haven't made myself clear enough, apologies for that, I can try and clarify further if need be. )

Kind of indicative of what I am meaning above. One can't compare the 'testimony' of all of them directly against Shelley/Lovelady, because there is no direct correlation, in some cases it's very much indirect as a result of a 'knock-on' effect.

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Are you suggesting that I dreamed there were people already in the building who saw the first people entering the doorway as being Truly and a Policeman?

You are dreaming that Shelley and Lovelady saw B&T go in.

Stay on topic dude.

And with regards the above from you it is more than evident that about half a dozen peeps made their way up the steps before B&T as seen in Darnell

Edited February 19, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/18/2017 at 2:03 PM, Bill Miller said:

Certainly one of them has the Bill Shelley hairdo.  

What about the possibility that Shelley went for a widdle stroll all by him widdle self, while Lovelady stayed on the steps and was caught in Couch-Darnell as he was semi-crouching (and talking or listening to someone else there? edit: Gloria "Big Girl" Calvery!), and then slowly rising to his "full height" (lol), right below Prayer Person's right elbow?

Why did Shelley and Lovelady have to stay together, wherever that might have been?  Because they later said that they had?  

--  Tommy

Edited March 24, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Bill Miller]

2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

You are dreaming that Shelley and Lovelady saw B&T go in.

Stay on topic dude.

And with regards the above from you it is more than evident that about half a dozen peeps made their way up the steps before B&T as seen in Darnell

Sorry Kamp ... I don't dream up things so to push an agenda.

I really don't care about how fast the little old gals made their way up and stairs and seeing how the camera goes off of those women, then for someone to say they were the first people to enter the TSBD is left to speculation.

Troy Eugene West

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any shots fired?
Mr. WEST - I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see anyone else on the first floor while you were eating your lunch? Anyone else at all did you see on the first floor?
Mr. WEST - It wasn't anybody. I didn't see anybody around at that time.
Mr. BELIN - At any time while you were making coffee or eating your lunch, did you see anyone else on the first floor?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I didn't see.
Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person you saw on the first floor after you - while you were eating your lunch? Someone came in the building?
Mr. WEST - Yes; before I got through. The officers and things were coming in the front door.
Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person or persons that you saw coming through there while you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WEST - Well, that was the police.
Mr. BELIN - A police officer?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Anyone else?
Mr. WEST - I guess it was a bunch of them, I guess, FBI men, and just a crowed of them coming in there.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you know Mr. Truly?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police.

 

Here is another witness who was on the first floor and said the first person he saw enter the building after the shots was Truly and a policeman.

Eddie Piper

Mr. BALL. You understand since this is a continuation of your deposition you are under oath still?
Mr. PIPER. Thank you; I appreciate it.
Mr. BALL. Your deposition has been taken?
Mr. PIPER Yes; that's right.
Mr. BALL. I'm going to just ask you a few questions.
Mr. PIPER. Sure, that's all right.
Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor?
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?

 

Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow---I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.
Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed?
Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.
Mr. BALL. A police officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.

 

Not slow moving ladies, but rather the first persons that two independent employees saw on the first floor following the shooting were Roy Truly and Patrolman Baker - and I am fully awake.