Bill Miller

Lifted from other locations and incorporated into Altgens 6? Why?? Those agents are seen in several movie films and in at least three still photos taken inside of Dealey Plaza.

Your illustration is far more extreme - subjects filmed at high speed and different shutter speeds.

I believe the film evidence, Lovelady and Shelley's statements, and other eye witnesses support that this was the case. Lovelady said he had walked just about 25 steps when he hear a noise and looked back to see Truly and Patrolman Baker starting to g through the entrance of the building. I know there was a couple of workers who were inside the building who saw Truly and Patrolman Baker being the first people to enter the building. As far as look-a-likes go .... when dealing with such poor images such as the one's you are talking about - a lot of people will look alike of you want them to.

Interesting that Buell Frazier said in his "History Matters" interview that he didn't see Lee Oswald outside until Oswald was crossing east over Houston and then south to cross Elm Street before losing track of him in the crowd when Buell turned away momentarily. I believe he speculated that Oswald left by the rear of the building.

Are you suggesting that I dreamed there were people already in the building who saw the first people entering the doorway as being Truly and a Policeman?

I would also like to be quoted as I do not recall saying the figure being claimed to be Lovelady did not move up a step - I do recall saying I so not believe this person was rising up from a sitting position It is my opinion that the image is to degraded so to ID this person in my opinion. The blurring effect even hinders making a measurement of this woman's person against the people standing on the sidewalk for the same reason for some frames make it look as though the woman may have lowered her position slightly. .And lastly - where is Bill Shelley and how does the look back from on the steps to see Truly and Patrolman Baker about to enter the doorway from the other side of the extension some 25 steps away from the stairs then play out?

And to look back and see Truly and Officer Baker moving and about to enter the door of the TSBD.

Zapruder filmed at 18 frames per second (shutter opens and closes with each frame) and had both motion blur and panning blur within his images. Moorman took her photo in reaction to the head shot and with the car barely moving. The car is determined moving because the emblem in the middle of the hub caps are blurred from being in motion/turning at a much faster rate than the car is moving forward.

There is a number or people this person could be. Just the other day someone wondered if a guy that was standing in front of the building seen briefly in one of the films could have been Oswald .... someone could just as easy say it is that guy from the film.

I cannot say the man is turning his head. This person's head and shoulders seem to morph and get taller on the Dal-Tex side of him. At the same time the woman's head in the light colored scarf seems to morph the same way. The lady in the dark head scarf seems to have her head morph as well. So my point is that it is not for certain that these head movements are not what you believe them to be.

Sandy, I can appreciate you wanting that person to be Lovelady, but when you make comments about how this clip allows you to make out Billy L's eyes and other features, then you do a disservice to yourself because what you are saying this clip offers in details is just not there. That person can be wearing a sport coat for all anyone can see. You may recall that I didn't buy Kamp's view at first that Lovelady was walking on the Elm Street extension. But better images offered a view of the plaid design of the shirt Lovelady had been wearing. The man he was walking with had the same wavy hair immediately above the forehead that Shelley had. Buell Frazier has said that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps together which also supports Kamp's claim of the Darnell film showing those two men on the Elm Street extension when Patrolman Baker made his run to the TSBD. The person you believe that looks close enough to be Lovelady doesn't seem to be with Shelley, unlike the Lovelady looking fellow seen walking on the extension street. I do however understand why you would think it could be Lovelady. It's just that the fuzzy image alone isn't worth much in my view.

The best way to have done this in real world fashion would have been to have gone to the Plaza and by using Darnell's line of sight - another person could have stood approximately where Prayer-Man is and posed in a number of ways for comparisons. Some of us have used to solve several issues in the Plaza this way. In fact, the area where Prayer man is standing is so small that the margin or error is minimized. Find two reference points and use someone Lee's build and height and have them turn much like Prayer-Man is seen. If the difference is great, then Prayer-Man being Oswald is a problem.

"Photogrammetric analysis may be applied to one photograph" I have been on forums where it was applied to a single film frame .... and the same when National Geographic did a similar examination. From my understanding - it is 3D model creations that require multiple views. Hasn't seemed to stop supporters of Oswald being Prayer-Man when looking at the same image. But yes, I believe when it comes to girth that a measurement can be obtained within a small degree of error. I will however suggest that these questions be given to someone who is actually skilled in Photogammetry. I could ask, but someone needs to get the measurements needed to do the job. Width of the doors - the extension - the stairs - the vertical step surfaces - the height of the doorway and so forth. Dale Myers may already have those figures. I can only say you should seek the answers to this person's girth before doing other work on the matter so not to waste more time that you may already have. My schedule is not free to for me to do the work to run down measurements. The 6th floor Museum may have the figures for the building.

"Photogrammetry is the science of making measurements from photographs, especially for recovering the exact positions of surface points. It may also be used to recover the motion pathways of designated reference points on any moving object, on its components, and in the immediately adjacent environment. Photogrammetric analysis may be applied to one photograph, or may use high-speed photography and remote sensing to detect, measure and record complex 2-D and 3-D motion fields ......" My understanding is that if one knows the camera lens type and size, along with known measurements within the photograph .... distances and sizes of other objects in that photograph can also be determined. I know of one person who is experienced in Photogammetry and I have seen it applied to still 2D images. If I am wrong, then it should be easy for you to merely speak to someone skilled in that field to see if you are correct.

To start with - I don't think any girth was ever considered previous to now .... there certainly do not seem to have been any body size ratio comparisons made to that of Lee Harvey Oswald. Also, if I had a lot of work involved in trying to make a case for Oswald being Prayer-Man, then I too would not be so quick to accept the girth observation. The thing now is the girth has been raised and sooner or later someone skilled in Photogammetry will answer that question, thus leaving little wiggle room one way or the other on this issue.

And the figure is wide even when turned at an angle to the camera. Even wider if he turns straight on with the camera. While a fuzzy image can be said to look like it could have been Oswald - the girth causes him not to be Oswald in my view. It will be interesting watching how those who have so much invested in Oswald being Prayer-Man will handle this revelation. They either got to fatten the real Oswald up or slim Prayer-Man down.

I believe if someone found a good full frame view and considered the line of sight that Lovelady is being viewed - they would find that Lovelady was standing near the handrail and was still on the west (knoll) side of it. There is a shade line that crosses the landing where Frazier is standing. Note his torso is sunlit while his head is not.

That is correct Alistair. That is where we seem him in latter footage of the stairs and entrance to the TSBD.

Exactly ... the shadow being cast from the woman in the white coat can be seen morphing as she climbs the stairs. Her shadow can be seen in the two frames below along with the landing'. In my world it is impossible to see through real people. I guess in your world all is needed is to wait for the right frame to come along where the shadows being cast morph together and then bump up the contrast so to make them look like a portion of someone figure.

That is not Lovelady in the image you previously posted. Lovelady as clearly seen in the Hughes film and in Altgens photo shows him on the west side of the stairs - down and to the right of Frazier. (see below) I found this interesting when Frazier was asked if he went anywhere after hearing the shots being fired .... and Buell mentioned that a Police Officer could have came past him and he not seen it because of the way he was turned and with he talking to someone. Have wonder if that someone was the Prayer-Man. And while Frazier said he stayed there for several minutes - he mentioned Shelley and Lovelady leaving the stairs ................. Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place? Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all. Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there? Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there? Mr. BALL - A police officer. Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building? Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. Later Mr. Ball asked a question that you touched on in your previous response. Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you? Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also. We know where Lovelady was standing during the parade before JFK turned onto Elm Street and during the shooting as Billy is seen in the Hughes film and in Altgen's photo by the west wall.

At no time do I see this person rise from anything. He is standing and I never see anything about his clothing that is white. By the way - where is Shelley???

I think the three minute timing estimate is wacked based on the Couch/Darnell films.

You have Shelley saying they remained on the steps for three minutes and then the trip to the Island - the walk to the RR Yard - and the take their time description of walking back to the Depository. That makes around 6 minutes from the time they heard the shots. What ever you say.

If you are talking about the area within the red outline, then absolutely! You outlined several steps that are visible before someone bumped up the contrast and hid them while creating an illusion someone was standing there.