David Josephs

I'd also like to know how your conclusions can be presented with so much certainty. "That was the plan" suggests you were privy to the planning of the assassination, otherwise how would you know the "plan" ?? I agree, the WC did everything they could to keep it at 3 shots... yet that still does not put a shooter in the TSBD... In fact, based on acoustics, explain how our three men on the 5th floor are not deaf with ringing ears after 3 such explosions only 10-15 feet from their heads... Norman could hear the bolt and the shells? Please. There is no compelling evidence beyond Euins that any shots were fired from the SE window. SW, maybe.

Thanks George... At this point we use what we have and make our best guesses... The thread though is related to z313 and whether or not another shot was indeed fired where they said it was in WCD298. Does the acoustic analysis end with the two shots .7 seconds apart at z313? - of course it does since the station 4+96 shot was 40-50 frames down Elm and removed by the time the WCR was finished. Shouldn't we also be hearing Chaney's motorcycle on the recording after he guns forward to tell the lead car what happened? Why isn't that noise or that visual recorded anywhere but in the testimonies of those who saw it happen: Chaney, Hargis, Curry, Sorrels, Decker... or is it? The acoustics also can only account for LOUD noises of shots... This WWII rifle is virtually silent while being just as deadly... add now Mitch Werbel's involvement and the use of silenced weapons is truly not that far-fetched.

If the Zapruder film's frames are an accurate, unaltered representation of the event... one has to ask why Shaneyfelt moved the path south and then changed ce884 so that it completely misrepresents the film? According to the Surveryor's notes, Shaneyfelt figured out where z168 and z171 were (incorrectly I might add considering these 3 frames are only separated by 9/10th of a foot) yet after he figures this out he does something amazing. Luckily Robert WEST took some notes: So what does this mean related to ce884 and zframes 161 and 166? Well, originally ce884 stated that frame 168 lays where the new ce884 places z161. 168 becomes 161 and 171 becomes 166. Pretty good trick! Now we'll see why Shaneyfelt moved the limo 1.1 feet to the south and why ce884 was changed The corner of the limo at z166 is even with the County Records bldg corner with JFK's position noted When I place the limo where Shaneyfelt put JFK for frame 171, the corner of the limo remains in line with the Records Bldg and JFK remains in line with Zapruder's line of sight. Only problem is 171 is now prior to 166... Here is a line art version of the above image. Nothing offered in the evidence can assist with a recreation of the event... in fact the evidence is offered in such a way as to make every attempt at reconstruction conflict with at least some part of the evidence. If the Zfilm is an accurate representation of what happened - the unanswered question remains, "Why change the permanent, accurate record instead of simply using it to explain what occurred?" Answer - the altered film cannot be related to the event by the laws of physics and math that apply. That's also why the evidence can claim the limo traveled at a constant 11.2 mph despite the same evidence showing the impossibly drastic changes in speed within the z161-z313 distance Shaneyfelt chose. Reading Shaneyfelt's testimony is absolutely necessary to understanding what happened here... that and the Redlich to Rankin memo from April 27 1964. "substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions..." We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.

I'm not sure how you get that reply from what I offered... There were absolutely more than one shooter If a shot was actually taken from the 6th floor SE corner - of which only Euins is a witness and even he is questionable - it most certainly was not with that Carcano. Regarding a first shot hit... If we accept the testimony and trust our eyes, a shot misses around z155.. The concern I raise has to do with that wide turn onto Elm and Shaneyfelt creating Position A despite nothing on the films or photos suggesting the limo ever passes thru that point. If we look at Z133 and where POS A is - there is nothing offered to reconcile this conflict or the addition of this point beyond Shaneyfelt's bad explanation for it. And then, when we learn that Shaneyfelt altered the path of the limo by moving it south 1.1 feet we also find - compliments of Chris Davidson's work - that Position A relates to a point the actual path and Shaneyfelt's path diverge... to only meet up again at Z313. As I ask in my essay on WCD298 - other than Altgens and Hudson, what evidence supports the placement of a shot down by the GK stairs? Certainly not the films or photos... while Altgens claims the headshot occurs directly in front of him Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make. Mr. LIEBELER - You also testified that you were standing perhaps no more than 15 feet away when the President was hit in the head and that you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the President was hit in the head?Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; that's correct. So we have an amazing conflict here. While TIME/LIFE, SS & FBI all place a "third" shot by the 2nd yellow curb and not the first which is near Moorman, this "third" shot location obviously shows JFK already hit in the head... For some reason Altgens tries to support the TSBD as the source of the shots yet the rest of his testimony conflicts with the film, just not the survey's done between Nov 26 and Feb 7. The Dec 5th results become WCD298. The Feb 7 results get revisited in May when Eisenberg and gang rewrite history. Thing is we can't get away from West's surveys... Question is Chicken or the Egg... Was this surveyed point provided by those overseeing the surveys or are they independently derived by WEST. The other sketches made by Shaneyfelt/Specter/Frasier all show that "last" shot down by Altgens and the 2nd yellow curb. Was this an actual shot? or simply a way to allow for 3 shots and 3 hits per the Dec 9th FBI report WCD1 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10402#relPageId=8&tab=page JFK hit by #'s 1 and 3, JC by #2... and this was the conclusion until May/June 1964 when the Silly Bullet Theory was created after shots at the top of Elm and bottom of Elm are removed to accomodate the 3 = 3 conclusions of the FBI.

Micah, I'd suggest not getting too hung up on "shot #1, #2, etc... By most accounts there were well more than 3 shots fired and 3 shots hitting their mark. George's jiggle analysis reference neglects the simple things such as the distance from DAL-TEX 2nd floor to JFK at 156... and then to completely miss everything? George makes some decent points yet a bullet lodged in his back from 157 thru the sign without a single sign of its effect convinces me that Hickey and Willis are reacting to a missed shot, just as the witnesses said they saw something hit the concrete at that time. Zapruder's angle did not include Dal-Tex's fire escape or those windows. George, does this look like a man who's been shot? Now let's look at an actual "cause and effect". As JFK emerges he is hit in the back and is seen being pushed forward and then slightly up with the raising of his arms. This is definitely a reaction to being shot regardless of jiggle, ear-witnesses or anything else. Most understand that he is hit in the throat as he disappears behind the sign which has caused his hands to clinch. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0050b.htm is CE888 which depicts Z161 so right off there's a bit of conflict with your conclusion. Shaneyfelt and Specter did their best to remove everything prior to 161: Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder film---- Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number? Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334. Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171? Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the frame that the slides start from. This was an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back to include the area that we wanted to study. ------ Mr. SPECTER. What was the starting position of the car at the most easterly position on Elm Street, immediately after turning off Houston Street? Mr. SHANEYFELT. The first position we established that morning was frame 161. Mr. SPECTER. Was there not a position established prior in sequence to frame 161, specifically that designated as position A? Mr. SHANEYFELT. That was actually established later. But the first one to be actually located was 161. And we went back later and positioned point A. Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's start with the position which is the most easterly point on Elm Street, which I believe would be position A, would it not? Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. Have you a photographic exhibit depicting that position? Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; in each of the positions that we established, we used, insofar as possible, the Zapruder pictures to establish the position, or we established it from the window, and made photographs from the position Mr. Zapruder was standing in. Mr. SPECTER. This chart has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 886. Mr. SHANEYFELT. This shows the photograph that was made from the point where Zapruder was standing looking toward the car, and is a point that we have designated as position A because it is in a position that did not appear on the Zapruder film. The Zapruder film does not start until the car gets farther down Elm Street. So here we are again at Position A. A location NOT filmed yet somehow identified as: Mr. SPECTER. So that would be the first position where the marksman could focus in on the circled point where the point of entry on the President was marked? Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. Mr. SPECTER. Could the marksman then have taken a shot at the President at any prior position and have struck him with the point of entry on that spot, on the base of the President's neck? Mr. SHANEYFELT. I don't quite understand the question. Mr. SPECTER. Was there any prior position, that is a position before position A, where the marksman from the sixth floor could have fired the weapon and have struck the President at the known point of entry at the base of the back of his neck? Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; because as the car moves back, you lose sight of the chalk mark on the back of his coat. Does this look to you as 1) the JFK stand-in would disappear under the tree? or 2) that you can't roll that limo back a few feet and still hit the stand-in in the back? AND 3) since the limo supposedly did not travel along that path (see ce875 for a photo ever 25 feet - from station to station as derived by West's survey plat) why bother including it for any reason other than the fact it very well may have happened and is one of the reasons the turn onto Elm was removed/altered Mr. TRULY. That is right.And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. Mr. BELIN. All right.

Yet they saw the result of the missed z157 shot. Just after President Kennedy’s limousine passed the front steps of the TSBD, five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the right rear of the limousine. Witnesses saw this bullet kick up concrete toward the car (Weisberg 187-189; cf. Posner 324; Moore 198). Again George, there is evidence offered of the SS seeing him hit in the back well after the turn onto Elm. What evidence do you offer to support his being hit in the back and then showing not a single reaction or impairment as a result of that shot... Here are both the 2nd and 3rd floor windows enhanced from Altgens. I see people in those windows so there being the source of a shot or shots is compelling. And as you say, the sound described is a street level sound so the 2nd floor makes sense. Yet the initial response from Humes is that the bullet angled severely downward upon entry suggesting a higher angle than Dal-Tex 2nd Floor. SS SA Bennett: At this point I heard what_sounded like a fire-cracker. I immediately looked from the right/crowd/physical area/and looked towards the President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the President I heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. Now we can't be 100% sure this isn't a CYA gesture since Bennet is in the left rear of the Queen Mary (facing the car) and appears to be blocked by everyone on that side of the vehicle. IDK. What I do know is I'd need a bit more evidence that something actually occurred other than a camera jiggle from the man with vertigo being held in place by someone else... The evidence has to be complimentary for your conclusion, and so far I've only seen you talk about what people heard, rather than what they saw. But this is a good thread... I like your thinking, just need a bit more to hang a hat upon... DJ

George - you'd think the "He doesn't even flinch" line you posted would prove to you that he was not hit with that shot, especially in the neck. But let's take a different approach for your throat shot... Compare the throat wound evidence with JFK fully dressed. Mr. SPECTER - What did you note, if anything, with respect to the tie, Mr. Frazier? Mr. FRAZIER - When the tie was examined by me in the laboratory I noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. However, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. The only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. As you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. This nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button. Mr. SPECTER - Is the nick consistent with an exiting path? Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, yes. The nick exposes the white inner lining of the tie... obviously Frasier wants to insure that SBT is not challenged by his conclusions related to this tie. Yet if the bullet is coming from behind the tie, one wonders how it only nicks the front... The point here being there is much more to this "first shot" than your conclusion for which there is no evidence... then again George, what can you offer us to support your conclusion as opposed to the evidence which shows this shot missed and was fired from behind..

This is a bit strange... Cannot find which flight either Phillips, Zapruder or Swartz put the film on for Rowley Wrone states it is not until just before dawn Saturday that this film arrives - it's only 2.5 hours from Dallas to DC... why does it take 6 more hours? Did a car/person meet the plane - who? The receipt of this film is not noted in anything Rowley or Phillips wrote.... And then somehow it makes its way back to the Zapruder group with the other copies and original? How?

Indeed Mark... Look at the size of the little tree on the south side of Elm. Looks like a reenactment of some sort.... and yes, the sidewalk witnesses are not the same at all

Hey there George... gonna have to disagree with some of your post... Regarding the shot that missed and the WCR passage, it still does not say which of the three allowed shots missed and hit the curb by Tague.... Please explain how JFK continues on without showing the slightest indication he was hit in the throat at this point. Witnesses describe a puff of concrete to the left of the limo as Hickey is looking down. If you can,please provide substantiation for this shot. Agreed The way JFK reacts after 224 I see his getting hit in the back while behind the sign. I also think shots were fired simultaneously based on there being radio contact between the shooters. Between 207 and 225 there are at least 2 shots fired making one shooter impossible, again. JC is hit, imo just as he emerges from the sign agreed that Tague is nicked and a shot hitting that curb causes it... but this shot is terribly high and wide of the mark... your explanation is plausible for sure as I review the line of sight for that shot Agreed - with a real possibility another shot is fired at this time hitting Connally the manhole cover shot that mystery man scoops up was more in line with county records where a Det Weatherford, an accomplished shooter with a scoped rifle was stationed with an unnamed deputy. Cover-Up by Gary Shaw, undated interview of Roger Craig by Shaw and Penn Jones (pg.144) A man with a gun is known to have been on the roof of County Records Building during the assassination. According to Roger Craig, Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford was at this location with a rifle equipped with a telescopic sight… Deputy Sheriff Pat Boyd told Craig that two weeks prior to the shooting of Kennedy and Connally, he (Boyd) had built a silencer for a .30 caliber carbine owned by Weatherford. Interview by Gary Shaw and Larry Harris of an unknown researcher, November of 1975 (pg.144) In 1969 a young assassination researcher interviewed Weatherford, and was taken by the man’s savage demeanor. He asked him point-blank if he had shot Connally or Kennedy. Weatherford snapped, “You little son of a b----, I shoot a lot of people.” ===== Letter 2 July 18, 1991 email Question: Was Harry Weatherford on the roof a building AT THE TIME of the JFK assassination? Which building was it, and who was Wheatherford with at the time? Who asked him to go up there? Did Weatherford tell you this himself? If not, who told you? BOWLES: Harry Weatherford was on the roof of the county records building with another officer whose name escapes me. He was assigned there by Decker, and this information was from Weatherford. You may relate this if you keep it straight.

Funny thing about those random thoughts Alistair.... when we come upon what actually happened, it's crazier than anyone could have ever imagined. Take care DJ

There also remains evidence from those at Kodak that day claiming repeatedly that Zapruder was only given 2 rolls of "Type A" film or Kodachrome IIA which was indoor film versus the non type A which was outdoor film. Regardless - a timeline of the Rowley film would be appreciated if anyone has info....

In reality z313 was shot #4 or #5... 190 to JFK's throat from the front, 206/7 to JFK's back, 225 or so to Connally; possibly another shot to Connally yet I think the "flurry" at z313 might also have caught Connally. but at least 3 shots hitting their mark prior to z313. IF the WC had kept any of the first three surveys, the "SHOT THAT MISSED" would have been the third at z358 yet the report from the FBI stated 3 shots = 3 hits While I agree that during the z313 flurry sequence mutiple shots were fired,... another shot, 40 feet down Elm at either 4+96 or 5+04, just 15 feet from Altgens was recorded 3 successive times by the same man at street elevation 416.83. Shot #2 at 419.07. (419.07-416.83=2.24 vertical elevation change times the rise/run of 18.3:1 we get a distance of 41 feet; 40.992'). Considering the limo was now accelerating and speeding away at much more than 1 foot per frame, it is considerably less than 42 frames between shots and therefore impossible for the bolt action Carcano to fire at both z313 and 41 feet further down Elm. A man was seen by Rowland in the far WEST window which is a more likely place for a shot to be traveling SOUTH as opposed to WEST... it is also possible that this T-shirt wearing man in the west window is the man Mrs Reid sees on the 2nd floor. Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window. Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window. It was this pair of windows here at that time. Mr. SPECTER - All right. Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle? (Witness marking.) http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0488b.htm Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it. Furthermore, Altgens is corroborated by Brehm: BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight. The slowing and virtual stopping of the limo, along with the evidence of the limo's very wide turn onto Elm which is represented by POSITION A. If the limo does not make that turn, there would be no reason for Shaneyfelt to have positioned the car at that spot in the first place. What we will see is how position A is the beginning of a limo path which is slightly south and slightly west of the actual limo path derived by Surveyor Robert West. As Doug Horne points out in his IARRB, Life's Paul Mandel wrote that the shot at z190 enters JFK's throat due to his turning around to completely face the TSBD. We know this is a falsehood provided him by someone at LIFE since he either 1) sees the film and lies about it, or 2) does not see the film and is told what to write. It is not until Melvin Eisenberg and the viewing of the Zfilm in March 1964 to determine the exact frames on which shots hit their target that the problem of the agreed upon Z190 first shot. The problem presented by the Zfilm is that there is no place to put a 3rd shot prior to z210 (the tree blocks all shots from Shaneyfelt's POS A until z210) unless it is the throat shot at z190 or a shot that many believe occurs at z156 just as the limo finishes its turn http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm is the WCR section titled "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" from which it must be determined if John Connally is mistaken about his NOT being hit by the first sound of a rifle. Since there are both holes in the front of his throat and one at approx T3 on his back, it is my feeling that JFK is hit in the throat from the front between z190-z200 and is hit in the back at z207 which is the reaction of his we see as he emerges from the sign. It is obviously just after this - between z224 and z238 - that John is hit by his own shot. IOW, by the time JC is hit, at least 3 shots have been fired and hit their target. Nothing then happens until 302/3/4 when we have the unnatural Greer headspin and a conclusion that in frame 303, the limo is not moving. https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsFBIZ313.pdf is a paper I did related to WCD298 which asks the question: Was a shot 4 feet from station 5+00 created to account for 3 shells or was there actually a shot down by Altgens and Hudson at the foot of the stairs? And what about Tague? A shot has to miss terribly for it to hit the curb, leave no copper, and nick Tague. While the WC chooses to claim that "no copper" indicates a fragment from within one of the copper jacketed bullets I was standing on top of the train trestle where it crosses Elm Street with Austin Miller. We saw the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something which I thought was fireworks. I saw something hit the pavement at the left rear of the car, then the car got in the right hand lane and I heard two more shots. I heard a woman sa "Oh no" or something and grab a man inside the car. I then heard another shot and saw the bullet hit the pavement. the concrete was knocked to the south away from the car. It hit the pavement in the left or middle lane. I then went down to my car radio to see if I could find out what happened. After I came back up, a policeman asked me if I had seen anything and brought me to the Sheriff's Office. /s/ R G Skelton This helps confirm what I had been saying about a shot at the top of Elm where we see SA Hickey lean over and look at the street to the left of the limo just as little Rosemary is stopping her running... yet it also corroborates a shot that missed after z313... what has confused me is why another shot is fired after z313.

Q: As you saw it, what happened at the time the second shot went off in regard to President Kennedy? What did you see? A(Zapruder): I thought I just described what I saw. You mean where it hit him? Q: Yes. A: I saw the head practically open up and blood and many more things, whatever it was, brains, just came out of his head. -------------- Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there? Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in. -------------- Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. -------------- Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate that is, the President's car? Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously. ---------------- I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether? Mr. HUDSON - Three. Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. -------------------- In every survey done prior to the May 1964 charade for 1) Time/Life 11/26; The Secret Service for Warren Commission Doc 298 12/2,3,4; and for the FBI on 2/7/64 the three shots are outlined as shown in WCD298 with 210, 313 and circa z350 for the 3 shots. Witnesses closest to the shooting all state z313 is the second shot after which the limo accelerates away, just as Kellerman, Greer and Hill state. Greer actually watched until JFK's head explodes, then accelerates... Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear? Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President. Yeah, not so much...

As I've been rereading Horne's work on the "master" film and copies chain of custody - which takes from Wrone and Trask - I keep reading about the impossibility of a 4th copy or 5th film yet repeatedly there is a film missing in the narrative. Max's note spells out pretty clearly that Zapruder has the "master", Sorrels has 2 copies and "The third print is forwarded" We also know that Zapruder shows a film on Sunday... but let's start at the beginning with Doug: Zapruder departed Kodak’s Dallas Plant at about 9 PM, and turned over two of the three “first day copies” to the Secret Service. One was sent to Washington, D.C.---to Secret Service Headquarters---by Dallas Secret Service agent Max Phillips, who placed it on a commercial flight late Friday night. It arrived in Washington after midnight, and sometime before dawn, on Saturday, 11/23/63. The second “same day copy” relinquished to the Secret Service by Zapruder on Friday night was loaned by the Secret Service to the FBI in Dallas the next day, on Saturday; and then flown by the Dallas office of the FBI to FBI headquarters, in Washington, on Saturday evening Yet in Max's note Sorrels KEEPS 2 copies and a 3rd is forwarded... all the while Zapruder has the "master" and his best copy. Is it fair to assume that Zap's "best copy" is counted as one of Sorrels' copies ? Is it further fair to assume that Sorrels relinquishes his only copy to the FBI while asking Zapruder to send a copy to DC? And then there is the evidence from Erwin Swartz, Zap's partner who, with Zapruder, basically remove Max Phillips from the equation. If Zapruder has "the best copy" and the original until Monday, and a copy is given to Phillips to send to Rowley with his hand-written note (surely Zap didn't write the note, nor does it appear he or Sorrels gave Phillips a copy to send but they Zap and/or his partner Erwin were to do it) and another copy is retained by Sorrels and given to the FBI on Ervay (Kelley) on Sat morning... there appears to be another copy: MASTER - Zap Best original - Zap Philips to Rowley - 8mm copy (the SS would only get a 2nd best or worse copy of the "master" - ?) Sorrels is given 2 copies - 1 is supposedly given back to Zapruder to send to DC on an Army transport, and 1 is retained and given to FBI SA Kelley the next morning... except that's not what the subsequent evidence shows Mr. LIEBELER - Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct?Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street.Mr. LIEBELER - That's the Secret Service?Mr. ZAPRUDER - The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people.Mr. LIEBELER - Now, I understand that you, yourself, retained the original film?Mr. ZAPRUDER - No; I don't have that at all--I don't have any at all. They were sold to Time and Life magazines. The following is an internal FBI memo from Brennan to Sullivan a year later telling us that the FBI had a copy of Zapruder's film BEFORE Zapruder meets with LIFE Saturday morning. The way Zapruder speaks here is appears that Sorrels brings a copy of the film with him on Saturday to show people, YET Zapruder shows Stolley his "best-copy" before anyone arrives on Saturday morning. Zapruder has 2 films (master & best copy), Sorrels has 2 films (one that goes to the FBI and one he shows Saturday at Zapruder's office & keeps) with "The third print is forwarded" per Max Phillips. Sorrels cannot show a film he does not have, Phillips cannot send a film he was not given, Kelley could not get a film Saturday from Sorrels if Sorrels doesn't have one, and the CIA claims the FBI had a film friday night - since Zapruder is showing a film and talking with Stolley Saturday morning. Yet this makes little sense at all: Abraham Zapruder met with Secret Service officials and Mr. Stolley of LIFE in his office on Saturday morning, 11/23/63, and projected the original film for them on his 8 mm projector.9 9 Trask, 2005, p. 127-131; and Wrone, 2003, p. 32-35 1st - the original was a 16mm film and only Rollie Zavada concluded it was split Both Dino at NPIC and Max Phillips discuss 8mm films. Only Homer talks about working on a 16mm unslit original which in turn created the briefing boards that match the extent film. 2nd - does it make any sense at all for Zapruder to risk damaging the original by showing it when Sorrels and he supposedly have 8mm copies to watch? Doug also talks about how impossible it is for LIFE to see a film on Sunday... yet Doug, like everyone else in the mix has never addressed the elephant in the room... What happened to Rowley's 8mm film, in DC by midnight the 22nd? This would be the first and ONLY version of the film shown to people in DC who could have actually implemented the alteration.. There is literally nothing on what becomes of that film once it is delivered to Rowley - ANYONE ???. Furthermore there is the issue of Jaggers whose offices are equidistant from Dealey plaza and Ervay.. Additionally, Erwin Swartz claims the films did not get to Jamison until 6pm... Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall was a very sophisticated photographic lab doing sensitive government work with film and photos. The investigation of what their involvement may have been that day seems like something we ought to have a better handle on... just sayin' DJ

At the core, moving Oswald to the 2nd floor when Bakers affidavit moves him closer to the 6th floor and "escaping" seems counter productive. If the point was to get him away from the front door - whether just inside or he is actually prayerman - his being above the 2nd floor at any time after 12:15 appears unlikely from the evidence offered. I've been posting that the Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom scene never happened for many years... common sense and the windowed door's closing, along with where Truly and Baker were on the stairs has always made it impossible... Thanks for writing it out in timeline form... as we fill in more blanks, maybe we can figure out who they really stopped on the stairs... any ideas? So then who did Baker describe as " As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. " 11:50 - 12:15 by 12:15 Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM Bookout's report claims this is well after the assassination... and reverses the Coke and lunch timeline. In the Bookout /Hosty report it says Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when the limo went by.. (how would he know when the limo went by if he was inside on the first floor?) Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor? Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him. Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald? Mrs. REID. Oh, yes. Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building? Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. (Since the interrogation reports all state that he wore a brownish-reddish shirt over his T-shirt... AND that he changed clothes at home 1 - Bledsoe and Whaley are telling a canned story & 2 - the man Reid sees cannot be Harvey... can it? Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else. Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door? Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first saw him? Mrs. REID. Right here. Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28? Mrs. REID. That is right. Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497? Mrs. REID. That is right. Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway? Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here. Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there? Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29. Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange? Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk. Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were when you thought you passed him. Mrs. REID. Here. Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put for Mrs. Reid. Mrs. REID. All right. Mr. BELIN. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him. Is this the list you think was created by these DPD men? And do we have Truly corroborating any of this? not from what I read of his testimony. in fact, if you go and read thru it, there are a number of conflicts in the timing of things... http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly2.htm As mentioned: Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him? Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle. Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time? Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle. Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building? Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building. Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found? Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know. Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz? Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor. Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor? Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor. Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you? Mr. TRULY. Yes. Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there? Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me. Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address? Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did. Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found? Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from---- Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only. Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it. Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found? Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards. Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me? Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz. Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was. Mr. BALL. About that time? Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there. Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address? Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock. Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place. Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct? Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer. Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory. Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so. Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate? Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination. Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you? Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes. Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address? Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately. Mr. BALL. Immediately? Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time.

Steve, On page 2 of the notes Fritz lists "B.O. + myself" yet the "0" may instead be a "G" since both appear to have a little tail where it should be. It appears again on page 4 of the notes related to B.O. asking about the Hidell SSS Card. It could be "Robert" for Bob, and maybe it's a G... BG or RG... and in the DPD or SS or FBI or ???

I like your thinking... mostly. There really is no place any longer for entertaining the thought that Oswald shot anyone that day. Like Vallee, Oswald was positioned to be useful if necessary. The Warren Comm Docs which deal with Vallee are especially interesting to me... "Never believe anything until it is officially denied" - Howard Zinn If men were not arrest and there was nothing of any consequence in Chicago, why does WCD47 insist on linking Vallee with Oswald https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10448#relPageId=14&tab=page is a report within CD47 which connects the Nov 2 arrest of Vallee with the belief "Vallee" was LEE HARVEY OSWALD under an assumed name... I highly suggest working thru this WCD... With regards to the rifle... My work helped me conclude that not a single one of those 100 rifles were ever at Klein's. No other rifle from those 100 has ever been seen, ever been on a SOLD receipt. These 40.5" FC rifles were on sale from Feb 1963 until Nov 23 1963 after Waldman claims he gathered all the remaining rifles up and removed them from inventory - are we to believe that the only rifle from that delivery ever sold was to HIDELL/OSWALD? As I wrote in my article, there are almost 1000 orders on that microfilm, and there are numerous films yet not a single order has ever been offered to confirm that any of the other 100 rifles actually existed. Nor do we ever learn what rifle was shipped between Feb-Nov 1963 when a customer ordered the newly revised "C20-T750" no longer a 36" scoped carbine but a 40.5" scoped FC. And finally, another nail in the coffin is the SS declaring the rifle Oswald/Hidell ordered was a Troop Special (TS) 1891 carbine and not the larger Fucile Corto model. The Evidence IS the Conspiracy IS the Evidence IS the Conspiracy IS the Evidence. They can't be separated. Nothing I have found in the evidence can authentically incriminate Oswald, it can only reveal the shadows created by the cover-up and conspiracy. You'll see the likes of DVP "list" the evidence which incriminates Ozzie, but never take it any further or address the inherent authenticity problem. If it can't be prove that Ozzie ever ordered or picked up these weapons, discussing what he did with them is worthless.

lol.. I hadn't either. Not as secretive or mysterious as the FBI's SIS from 1940-1945 though... Another small reference mentions this section only being responsible for Cuban related conspiracies. http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html/tamwag/tam_576/dscref34.html Belmont became FBI SA in 1937 and then served in Birmingham and Chicago field offices as well as ASAC of Chicago and NYC. In 1950 he became Assistant Director in charge of the Domestic Intelligence Division. He retired in 1965 and became Assistant Director of Hoover Institution on War, Peace and Revolution. 1926-1930 – San Diego State College -- 1930-1931 = Stanford University, B.A. degree, Accounting -- 11/30/36 = EOD FBI = Special Agent -- 3/7/37 = Birmingham AL -- 6/24/37 = Chicago -- 6/6/38 = Chief Clerk’s Office, WDC, Supervisor, Supply Division -- 7/2/40 = Division 5, National Defense Division -- 10/28/40 = Chief Clerk’s Office (Administrative Division) -- 1/28/41 = NYC, Supervisor, Section 2 (applicant investigations) -- 8/16/42 = ASAC, Chicago -- 1/15/43 = SAC Cincinnati -- 7/8/44 = Transferred from Cincinnati to become ASAC of NYC -- 7/29/49 = Commended by Hoover for his work on Judith Coplon case -- 8/31/49 and 3/15/50 = commended by Hoover for his work on Alger Hiss case -- 2/27/50 = Inspector in Charge, Security Division (Division 5) -- 09/30/51 – 6/1/61 = Hoover appointed him Assistant Director, Domestic Intelligence Division -- 02/60 = Became FBI liaison to U.S. Intelligence Board headed by Allen W. Dulles -- 6/2/61 – 12/30/65 = Belmont promoted to Assistant to Director—Investigative (replacing Donald J. Parsons who retired). In this position he supervised/directed Laboratory, General Investigative, Special Investigative and Domestic Intelligence Divisions -- 12/30/65 = retired 9/58 Staff of DID; Belmont – Assistant Director Inspectors: Donald E. Moore = 10/14/56  Branch Chief, Espionage – Central Research Branch -- Joseph A. Sizoo = 9/15/53  #1 Man and Branch Chief, Internal Security-Liaison Branch Section Chiefs: Fred J. Baumgardner = Internal Security Section -- James F. Bland = Subversive Control Section (until 9/1/55 he headed Internal Security Section) -- Ralph R. Roach = Liaison Section -- William A. Branigan = Espionage Section -- Sterling B. Donahoe = Nationalities Intelligence Section

and a good thought it is... The FPCC was being attacked from all sides... I was in a thread a while back that asked about the switch from Oswald the informant to Oswald the patsy.. what one notices after he moves to New Orleans is that his activities can be interpreted in a number of ways leaving the "plot" to twist and turn around him. As Oswald is carrying out his informant orders by playing both sides of the Castro fence (Anti-Castro Bannister forces yet "pro-Castro" flyers) he is also in the process of incriminating himself by sheer association - also in either direction. If JFK is somehow shot in Chicago, or Tampa... Oswald continues his $200/month informant job and everyone remembers Arthur Vallee instead. Virtually everything he is sent to do serves as both his quiet relationship with US intel and to incriminate him - should it become necessary.

Just a couple observations The evidence which pays for a rifle order in March - the Money Order - was created after the fact... There are 4 completely different stories related to the finding and securing of that Money Order https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf Holmes' story is a complete fabrication while the SS offers evidence which has them finding the MO in Kansas City, then again later that night in Virginia. Point being that the existence of the name "Hidell" and the Money Order in March does not necessarily backdate the use of that name... Since "Hidell" was not an authorized recipient of mail at Oswald's Box one would think Hidell being on the MO and order form and in at least 2 of his wallets was done only to create this association. The other thing to consider related to HIDELL is the same thing related to the rifle purchase and the faked trip to Mexico - where are the FBI reports? All during 1963 Oswald was watched, carefully. There is not a single FBI/USPS report mentioning the receipt of a 5 foot carton from Klein's, a visit to REA to pick up his pistol, the traveling from downtown Dallas with a 5 foot carton... and given how cheap Ozzie was supposed to be, that carton would make a great traveling case... or did he just get on a bus from Dallas with a rifle in his hands - also not remembered..? The next trick was getting that rifle from Neely to Magazine St in New Orleans and then in Ruth's car to Irving with Marina and kids.. This is yet another case of inauthentic evidence leading to erroneous conclusions. Hidell, like the entire mess, was part of the set-up of Oswald... Could "Hidell" have simply been a "never-to-be-found" co-conspirator to give validity to the Cuba/Castro-conspiracy story enabling an attack on Cuba. Here is the only use of "Robert Hidell" after crossing out "W.S. Oswald" On Nov 24th the CIA puts out a memo claiming the FBI is unaware if "Hidell" was another person (i.e. Mystery Man) or an Oswald Alias... Again, the FBI was consciously watching Oswald all thru 1963. Even at Neely. The man had supposedly ordered 2 weapons using an alias and went thru the necessary steps to pick up said weapons from the delivery point and bring them to his ever-changing homes. The ONLY evidence of their existence comes from Marina and Mr/Mrs DeMorn.... Ruth and Michael testify to never seeing any rifle prior to Nov 22. despite loading and unloading her car at both ends. =========== Could "B.O." be FBI Agent Robert "Bob" Olsen? The other two names for the 11/22 interrogation are Hosty and Bookout, both FBI. I checked all the DPD references I had and couldn't find a "B.O." http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10675#relPageId=2&tab=page

The fact of the matter is we are talking about CE399 as having performed some amazing feat when the evidence offered shows it does not exist until Rowley hands it to Todd... Please notice how DVP ignores this most critical of proofs. Also recognize how DVP stays away from the 7:30 versus 8:50pm time conflict. Since he cannot authenticate CE399 as ever being in Dallas, he talks about what the Dr's said about the wounds and ASSUMES CE399 authentic... Believing the evidence on face value is nice but doesn't cut it when convicting a man of murder... Evidence needs authentication... without it the "evidence" is not longer "real" or "material" let alone admissible as such. Prove the assumptions you make BEFORE you move on to conclusions based off them Dave... otherwise all you do is sound good while what you present is completely worthless as a basis for a conclusion. Mr. SPECTER - Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off? Dr. SHAW - I have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance. Is Dr Shaw suggesting that Connally was struck by 2 different bullets? Dr. SHAW - All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned, I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missile could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be more than three grains of metal missing as far as the I mean in the wrist. Mr. SPECTER - What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck? Dr. SHAW - I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet. (Discussion off the record.)

Whether in a recreation, or with the original manipulation of evidence by Ford.... Nothing DVP or anyone within the government's investigative bodies have an answer for why it was necessary to offer "alternative facts" about the entry point as it related to the jacket and shirt. DVP - why doesn't the shot thru the back exit the mannequin's throat as opposed to his pectoral muscle? DVP - why does Ford insist on moving the entry to a point where there is no medical evidence offered to corroborate that change? And finally for this post, notice the angle at which the rifle is pointing at those critical "SBT" frames. In each case a shot thru JFK hits the seat-back in front of him which again is the reason no bullet was found lodged in the limo, there was no Silly Bullet, and ce399 only comes into being as SS Chief Rowley hands Elmer Todd a bullet at 8:50pm, 100 minutes after Frazier receives ce399 at the FBI lab... Until that point, not a single person handling that bullet corroborates, (IOW "authenticates") the bullet in evidence as the bullet they brought forth... So I've now shown you how the Silly Bullet Theory was a sham and the knee-jerk reaction to the acknowledgement of Tague and the "shot that missed"... via the work of Purvis, Murr, Davidson and myself it is now common knowledge that the 5+00 WCD298, ce875, ce585 shot was removed after the May 1964 surveys were completed.... Let's see what you present: Based on the official evidence in the John F. Kennedy murder case, all of the following things are true: 1.) President John F. Kennedy and Texas Governor John B. Connally were shot by rifle bullets in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on Friday, November 22, 1963. That's one right... 2.) Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (Serial Number C2766) was located inside a building which overlooked the assassination site (the Texas School Book Depository) when JFK and JBC were being wounded by gunfire. This statement is unproven with the evidence available. In fact, the evidence related to that rifle and the FBI investigation proves there were 2 other Klein's orders for rifles not offered as evidence. Where are these 2 other orders from Crescent to Kleins and why are they not on the original order with the Feb 1963 delivery? The FBI learns about orders and rifle serial #'s from June 18, 1962 and March 27, 1963 shipments to Klein's followed by a report that C2766, as offered by Feldsott, was sold to Kleins on June 18, 1962. Below this is a list from Century Arms for a shipment of 41" FC rifles, all written without the leading letter... yet there is 2766 and finally, the Secret Service confirms that C-2766 as ordered from Kleins is a 36" 1891 TS "Troop Special" not a 41" FC. 3.) A nearly-whole bullet (Warren Commission Exhibit #399) was found inside the hospital where JFK and JBC were taken after the shooting. And CE399 was found in a location within the hospital where President Kennedy was never located prior to the bullet being found by Darrell Tomlinson. (Nor was JFK's stretcher ever in the area of the hospital where Tomlinson discovered the bullet.) Addressed already - ce399 only comes into existence when Rowley gives it to Todd... Prove otherwise. 4.) Bullet CE399 was positively fired from Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle. You still haven't proven it's Oswald's rifle yet... and I prove that the rifle taken out of the TSBD by Day is not ce139 - it has none of the same markings at all... 5.) Bullet CE399, based on the above points in total, HAD to have been inside Governor Connally's body on 11/22/63. Based on What? ce399 did not have a single bit of human debris on it, every Dr who knew of JC's injuries and the lead left in his body says ce399 could not have caused the damage,,, DVP, 1+1+1 does not equal 7 no matter how hard you try and make it work. 6.) A man who looked like Lee Harvey Oswald was seen firing a rifle at the President's limousine from a southeast corner window on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository Building. No other gunmen were seen firing any weapons in Dealey Plaza on November 22nd. Really? Your star witness disagrees with you... and does not put a scoped rifle in that window... nor does he see this person fire a shot. You got someone who actually describes someone looking like Oswald at 5'8" and 135 lbs wearing a dark buttoned up shirt & dark pants in that window shooting? 7.) No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found in the upper back or neck of John Kennedy's body. And no significant damage was found inside these areas of JFK's body either. No bullets might be in evidence but they were surely found and mentioned in the available evidence. On the left, DURING the autopsy aknowledgement of a 2nd lodged bullet is mentioned along with the Tolson's assurance that BOTH BULLETS would be procured. O'Connor was at the autopsy. A bullet was removed from the torso muscles on the right side, right about where that back bullet would have come to rest... Your stated conclusions are without merit of substance. 8.) No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found inside the body of Governor Connally after the shooting. The only bullet, anywhere, that can possibly be connected with Connally's wounds is Bullet CE399. Once again, simply not true. In fact the fragments left in JC add up to more lead missing from ce399. You arguing the medical evidence is amusing Dave.. you and Trump's "alternative facts" are right at home with the Nutters out there. 9.) Given the point in time when both JFK and JBC were first hit by rifle fire (based on the Abraham Zapruder Film), and given the known location of Governor Connally's back (entrance) wound, and also taking into account the individual points made above -- Bullet CE399 had no choice but to have gone through the body of President Kennedy prior to entering the back of John B. Connally. Addressed by the WCR and shown to be incorrect. The claim is the bullet's course was not affected by passing thru JFK.. for the SBT to work JFK needs to be leaning over and tying his shoes at the time of the shot... unless you can prove otherwise. My favorite still remains the "Bonus Quotes" from 1) Bugliosi, 2 )Myers and 3) Specter... to prove your point...

Here's a "strange but true" thing I found when I was researching Oswald in the summer before the Mexico City thing... He looks for only Photo related work except for an entry at "United Fruit" in New Orleans. As to the seed of assassination? The military and CIA were made to look very foolish in the eyes of the world in April 1961 when the time island of Cuba kicked the crap out of the US backed incursion. Ike was asleep while Nixon's war machine began overthrowing countries. 1960 needed to be Nixon. When he lost I believe those involved used the Bay of Pigs as the new president's first big test - a litmus on whether his rhetoric was politics or policy. JFK approved the D-Day strikes (subsequent to the previous strike) on April 16... and the story goes that he called it off the night before... but; At about 9:30 P.M. on 16 April, Mr. McGeorge Bundy, Special Assistant to the President, telephoned General C.P. Cabell of CIA to inform him that the dawn air strikes the following morning should not be launched until they could be conducted from a strip within the beachhead. Mr. Bundy indicated that any further consultation with regard to this matter should be with the Secretary of State (Memo. 1, para. 43). G eneral Cabell, accompanied by Mr. Bissell, went at once to Secretary Rusk's office, arriving there about 10:15 P.M. There they received a telephone call from [deleted reference to one of the brigade commanders] who, having learned of the cancellation of the D-Day strikes, called to present his view of the gravity of the decision. General Cabell and Mr. Bissell then tried to persuade the Secretary of State to permit the dawn D-Day strkes. The Secretary indicated that there were policy consideratons against air strikes before the beachhead airfield was in the hands of the landing force and completely operational, capable of supporting the raids. The two CIA representatives pointed out the risk of loss to the shipping if the Castro Air Force were not neutralized by the dawn strkes. They also stressed the difficulty which the B-26 airplanes would have in isolating the battlefield after the landing, as well as the heavier scale of air attack to which the disembarked forces would be exposed. The Secretary of State indicated subsequently that their presentation led him to feel that while the air strikes were indeed important, they were not vital. However, he offered them the privilege of telephoning the President in order to present their views to him. They saw no point in speaking personally to the President and so informed the Secretary of State. The order cancelling the D-Day strkes was dispatched to the departure field in Nicaragua, arriving when the pilots were in their cockpits ready for take-off. The Joint Chiefs of Staff learned of the cancellation at varying hours the following morning (Memo. 1, para. 44). Question: Did you attempt to advise the President as to the importance of the air strikes? Rusk: I had talked to him and he had stated that if there weren't overriding considerations the second strikes shouldn't be made. Since Mr. Bissell and General Cabell didn't want to talk to the President on the matter, I felt there were no overriding considerations to advise him of. I didn't think they believed the dawn air strikes were too important. I believe that Castro turned out to have more operational air strength than we figured. It appears to me that Bundy, Cabell, Bissell and Rusk are in on something that will push JFK into a corner since virtually all the discussion to this point in the records shows an agreement on this D-Day air support. The CIA putting the blame all on JFK in the eyes of the Joint Chiefs and JFK focusing on the CIA rather than the military shows me the military was always pulling the CIA strings. Dulles went to far as to actually say he believe the young president would break and send air support. since it was never JFK who removed the support, I believe this was the initial seed of JFK's assassination.