William Plumlee

Loran "Skipper" Hall was a low grade street informant. He received money from the FBI for tips which often did not check out. He often infiltrated various groups at the FBI's direction and would relay some tid bits of information to them which he thought might get him favors and cash. He was in no way connected with the CIA or had anything to do with direct CIA operations in Cuba or elsewhere, at anytime. The interest which surrounded him was at best fabricated by Hall and others, and inserted into the various investigations that were being looked into by law enforcement because of false stories and plants "cut-outs" of the time. Often when the FBI or other law enforcement were closing in on his criminal activities, he and those associated with him would cry foul "I'm CIA". It worked sometimes because of the CIA's program not to comment. As a result of the agencies procedure, at the time, various law enforcement agencies would back off until clarifications could be established. As a result of these type on individuals, basically working as an informant, their actions sometimes got good undercover operatives killed or exposed and INTEL operations from that quarter were shut down. Good men paid the price for this faulty federal program of not screening their informants and withholding confidential matters from them. Tosh

Interested parties who did not want to get the typical "Oswald did it alone and don't bother" answer took the print issue to experts at Interpol, and, I'm told, hearsay-wise, that a match was confirmed. I can't prove that, but that is what I was told. Nathan worked or worked/is working on that one print for several years, and he just turned 90. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is a very good researcher in Austin who predates all the research into the Mac Wallace and Johnson information, including the fingerprint. His files on this are extensive. He remains in the shadows as a 'deep investigator' and has tons of documentation pertaining to Johnson and others pre Washington. I wish he would make his research available to the public. I have talked to him about this. He is very sick now. He is one of the silent warriors in all this research and has paid dearly for his work. His research is a must read. It does not contain opinions or speculations about who killed Kennedy and why. It is document by a chain of evidence which predates the early fifties and encompasses the late sixties and early seventies.. Thanks

I seem to recal something about President Kennedy or Bobby Kennedy had found information on Johnson that was going to cause the President to drop him from his V.P. They were going to expose all of Johnson's previous wheeling and dealings even before the Baker matter. Does anyone have information on this? Thanks Tosh

"....In the immediate post war period there was a major political fight raging in America and alot of it centered around the ability to gather intellegence. John J. McCloy would play a major role in this revolution (of sorts) participating in the think tank that ultimatly produced the CIA. ...". Jim Root Good history. Truman was monitoring all this in fighting... and that prompted him to form the CIA, in hopes of bring all the foregin intelligence under one roof; therefore putting an end to the fighting of various units of intelligence gathering and their juristdictions. Some years later Truman made a statement something like.."he never intended for the CIA to have become what had had become.."" something like that... had something to do with how the CIA had got out of line annd useing its power in ways he Truman never intended. This statement was made after he had left ofice some years later. Thanks Tosh

I I find this very interesting. I think you 'ole' boys are getting somewhere. I hope somebody follows through. Keep on plugging.. soon your good work will be discredited by some out there that still hold the gate. Mark my words. Tosh

".......OSS transformed itself into the CIA......". Not to criticize, but the OSS did not transform itself into the CIA. Truman created the CIA for an entirely different reason in 1945. Only a few of the old OSS boys of WWII came on board with the new CIA. It is true that others came on board later but they were asked to after the Agency had been set up. In the very early days at 'Quarter Eye', (the old navy WAVE barracks, or WAVE station in Washington D.C.) there were only small number of employees at the new CIA located there. The CIA really came into its own around the late fifties and early sixties concerning Central America and Cuba. True other CIA Action Groups were operating, and some of these case officers had WWII experience with the OSS, but they had not cleared into the fold direct from the OSS. Also others from the old OSS went to ONI with naval INTEL. Perhaps this is a mute point but I felt it needed to be cleared. To me it seems to lead thought in the wrong directions. Thanks Tosh

John: I have already been working on that angle for sometime now ... I will be in Texas in a few weeks and I have a lead on very interesting material from an old man down there who use to work at Ling-Temco-Vaught and would like to talk about 'old' times he had with some of the Texas 'good ole boys', around Austin through the fifties and sixties. At one time he worked for LBJ. says he has documents and important information he would like to share. I was warned a few months ago, by another source from Austin '...that it would be best for me to pass on talking to much with some of these people. It was said. "..Texans don't like certain matters brought to the surface again." I was raised in Texas during the, 40's; 50's; and 60's; and I know what this means. I have previously asked Forum members for help on anything about Black and others like the Texas (Dallas) Cubans, but nothing important or solid came back. Thanks. However, things are moving forward. Tosh

Hey Tosh, You don't look like Elvis anymore ))) Dawn <{POST_SNAPBACK}> [COLOR=blue]Can't sing anymore either. You know he was my 'cusin'. Once at the Cotton Bowl, I doubled for him... he went out the back and I went out the front. It worked for a few min... but then they almost killed me when they found out I was not elvis. I was paid $25. and quickly spent it at the Texas State Fair. Our friend knows the story

] There are two reasons for this rule. (1) Some members have accused others of not being the people they say they are. A photograph helps to provide evidence that they are really that person. (2) I have found that people with photographs as avatars are less likely to make or receive personal attacks on the forum. I suspect that the reason for this is that the photograph helps to humanize the member. I might be wrong about this, but I thought it was worth a try. I think I got it... Sixs months agos I cudest spells writter... nows I's are ones".. Thanks John for the information... This was a test. At the tone put you head between your legs and ...... goodby Tosh guess it did not work..,sorry.

Thanks Al..., you take care... be safe...we've walked that road .... Tosh

Reply; Al, not sure I remember Limon. I was thinking it was at the "Hotel Fortenno (sp) in San Jose?? I do remember meeting when J.H. and F and two others when they were there... Now, after all these years, perhaps I have gotten the two places Limom and San Jose transposed. If I recall, H. had flown in from his ranch, his private plane, either meet F. there or F. had came with him from the private strip on H's ranch. Anyway, shortly after that I went to three different parts of the country on arms and weapons drops. (1) "the hide-a-way" near the Volcano?? (2) Poco Solo's landing strip in the jungles. (3) Santa Elena, aka 'Point West'. ( this was a little before "the bloody mess" that was mentioned some time back) Anyway. Its good to have you on this forum. I think all of us here, working together, might get some real meaningful work done on this case. I have made some bad mistakes in the past, by trying to help others when they have ask me to speculate or voice my opinion on various topics. (as to what I think might have happen or why THEY did what THEY did, etc.... I trusted some who had other motives which have now become obvious. Do you remember "Scott Wheeler", a close friend of KIKI's? Did you ever meet 'Bill Cooper' or 'Buzz'? All GOOD MEN, who paid the price. Least we not forget them..., Don't mean to ramble, but... did you ever teach at the "School of the Americas... Fort Benning...???? You remind me of an instructor I once knew there????... Have a good one... Tosh

Thank you very much Ron. One fine job of research. One part I do like is: "....The problem is compounded, of course, when the most powerful of government agencies continue to obstruct justice. The State Department, reported the Assassination Records Review Board, had been “more of a hindrance than a help.” The Office of Naval Intelligence failed to produce reports that one of its staff swore existed. And, it emerged this year, the C.I.A. concealed the fact that one of its own officers had steered and funded the very anti-Castro exiles who tailed and brawled with Oswald in New Orleans just months before the assassination. Years later, moreover, the Agency saw fit to assign that very officer to handle sensitive enquiries from Congress’ Assassinations Committee – without revealing to Committee staff that he had personal knowledge of key details. This revelation alone, sighed Records Review Board chairman John Tunheim, “shows that the C.I.A. wasn’t interested in the truth about the assassination....”. Thanks again: Try and find any records on the investigators who brought information to Congressman Tom Downing, before the HSCA was formed. What did he have? And how did he get the information on Rosellie long before any of this surfaced? There is still so much more out there that has not surfaced. Your right... Thanks again. I enjoyed the read.... Tosh Plumlee

Larry: Note In 1952 Captain Seiwell went back into service with the Forth Army Reserve and was based at Dallas Love Field.. The same place as the Texas 49th Armord Div. I too was in the Texas National Guard 49th Armord Div before I went into the regular Army in 1953 at Ft Bliss Texas... I also went back into the National Guard and then transfered into the 4th Army Reserve in 1954. Capt Siewell was my CO officer at Love Field in 1954 until 1956... Do you have my military files? If so who signed off on my becoming a CPL in 1954? So am I lying? You say he resigned the Guard, true... but he actually transfered to the regular Army Reserve, the same as I did... Can't find the records? Can you find mine? Why not?... perhaps it is the unit we were in... If I prove this to you will I get an apolige? It seems to say I am fabricating the Seiwell information... so therefore then everything I say is now under question... because Seiwell resigned the Guard in 1950.... Is this how it works? That might be a start for any serious researcher... As I said in my other Post... Go into the records of the Forth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field for the year 1954 Capt Edward G Seiwell. and CPL.William R Plumlee. I think you will find that was a Tank Bat at the forth... then into a INTEL unit at Love Field with the forth .... Then have a beer on me... Tosh Plumlee <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In order to help research; the following should be of interest: Please Read and confirm. Enlistment Record of William Robert Plumlee United States Army Forth Army Reserve Dallas Love Field Texas: Recap: S/N 18389060; 9th of Feb 1955; grade CPL; Auth for grade 25-1; enlisted under authority of (NGR25-1) For service in NGS Texas; Company C 156Tk Bn. Forth Army Reserve; DoB 11 25 37; civil trade or occupatiom Aircraft Mech. Southwest Airmotive Dallas Love Field; Enlistment record: 22Oct52 thu 8th Feb53 NG Enl s/n25926077 Pvt disc. HonMin; Disc. 8Feb53; re enl. 28th Sept53 thu 2Mar54USAR 4th Army; 18389060 Grade at disc. CPL; 3Mar54 thu 2Jul 18389060 rank CPL. USA Ft Bliss Texas assn. temp dty 6Jul54-No Rec of Disc. tnsf. Texas 4th Army Res, Dallas Love Field, Dallas Texas. Co C156Tk Bn.CO Capt. Edward G Seiwell; Capt. Gilbert B Cook; 2ndLt. Charles R Brannon, Arty Ft Bliss Texas; MOS: WR Plumlee 1795, 3795 Tank Crew man Tk Comander, Sherman Tank. Cpl. Plumlee Mos 'Unknown; Unknown" Ft Bliss Texas; Texas National Guard; Unknown. OO Records at Office of Adjutant General State of Texas Camp Mabry, Texas. Texas National Guard; Texas Forth Army Reserv; Certified Copy of Available Document By; XXX referenced doc. (run a check on Edward G Seiwell Forth Army Reserve and the 49th Armord Div will also come up... why only half of his record is presented to researchers? I would be happy to post the orginal copies of these 'Lost, Burned, and misplaced records, that could never be found in all these years.., that I found at Camp Mabry two years ago on my research while in Texas seeing my daughter Leslie and grandson. However, I am sure I would be accused of tampering with them... I can not research myself... hence I can sure as hell point the way for others and someone else can go get the documentation and tamper with it... I get the drift of whats going on out there...Burn me once..shame on me..., burn me twice???......... I can read between the lines... I am close to something people are getting jumpy... got to be stoped. Right? Tosh P.S. Larry. Perhaps you might have taken me wrong on how I said what I just posted. It was not directed toward you in any negative way. I repect your research and consider you one of the dedicated, as to the search for truth. My intent is to only fill in some of the blanks... and I only wanted the world to know there are many blanks... what I posted is just one link..there are others. If I can I will continue to point out documentation and facts to confirm(?) various matters I was connected with and know about. I see that as "working together" for a commond cause... Sorry if I offended you.. it was not intentional I assure you.... Tosh

Larry: Note In 1952 Captain Seiwell went back into service with the Forth Army Reserve and was based at Dallas Love Field.. The same place as the Texas 49th Armord Div. I too was in the Texas National Guard 49th Armord Div before I went into the regular Army in 1953 at Ft Bliss Texas... I also went back into the National Guard and then transfered into the 4th Army Reserve in 1954. Capt Siewell was my CO officer at Love Field in 1954 until 1956... Do you have my military files? If so who signed off on my becoming a CPL in 1954? So am I lying? You say he resigned the Guard, true... but he actually transfered to the regular Army Reserve, the same as I did... Can't find the records? Can you find mine? Why not?... perhaps it is the unit we were in... If I prove this to you will I get an apolige? It seems to say I am fabricating the Seiwell information... so therefore then everything I say is now under question... because Seiwell resigned the Guard in 1950.... Is this how it works? That might be a start for any serious researcher... As I said in my other Post... Go into the records of the Forth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field for the year 1954 Capt Edward G Seiwell. and CPL.William R Plumlee. I think you will find that was a Tank Bat at the forth... then into a INTEL unit at Love Field with the forth .... Then have a beer on me... Tosh Plumlee

Very good post Shanet. Now I have one question for all forum members.. For years bits and pieces of this (my) story has been floating around.. Off and on I have been ask questions and ask to speculate and give my opinions. Big mistake on my part. My question... now that I have turned a cornor and have become a little more "spacific" as to my replies... perhaps more "Professional".... Why suddenly is there so much information surfacing that is designed to discredit anything I have to say about any of this subject matter? It seems as long as I do not point the way to various places and voice certain things... and "Stay in Line", then I'm allowed in the "Ball Park"... but when I get damn right "Spacific" then I am slapped in the face, and then I am ask to pick up my bat and leave the ball park... I assure you and others and those ... I have a hell of a lot to say on this subject matter... to those I say 'Take your Best Shot.. A.H. I think they know who they are... Thanks again.. Its nice to be associated with professionals.. Tosh Plumlee

Note to All: All spuculation. Nothing factual even going back to opinions expressed by others who have been interviewed over the years in reference to this lic. and have pushed the Cubans angle with their wild speculations and here say remours...their driving to Dallas and all that crap and other stories that was no way connected with any CIA OPS of the time.. All independents..., All spuculations. I too. can speculate go into the Fourt Army Reserve when they were HDQ'ed at Dallas Love Field. (The 4th became the 5th Army, merged I think, some years later.) The personal records were destoryed in the big St Louis fire of 72 or so... However there are alt records that can be found in Austin Texas. Now in those records are the autos reg to get into areas restricted to MI... Find the time frame Capt Ed Seiwell 4th Army was there...(its been said he does'nt exist.. but that too is not fact another false rumor.. find him.... Dallas telephone director or utility bills and at Austin, etc...) He is a hard man to find...there is a picture of an auto parked in front of where all the inducties (draftees) took their physicals (Dallas Love Field 4th Army) before being sworn in to the regualr army.. ..,Look at the lic number of the car parked out front of this building. I have seen the picture.., but that is hearsay and I can't be trusted. I think the place in Austin is with the Texas National Guard at Camp Mayberry (??)(thats what I call the Army Camp) And another place to find FACTUAL information is the 5th Army records on the Fourth Army Reserve. (the old hidden records that are real dusty... they were missed in the big purged and fire... I know this will offend some experts BUT...Do some leg work... go out there and find it... Be researchers instead of taking third party hear say as fact which have been thrown to you to take you away from the truth....Do the work you should be doing and don't listen to anyone...including me...Just go document the facts, then pass them around to eachother ... now that you know where to go... Or do you want me to get it and give it to you while you sit back and sip your beer... Thanks for the information. I'm sorry. I did not mean to speculate or be an expert.... Tosh P.S An expert is: ( X ) is an unknown quanity. (Spurt) is a drip under pressure.....thus (XSPURT)

Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> [/color] The violence of the headsnap and the description of the head wound by the Parkland Dr's. plus my personal experiences all lead me to believe that a far more massive bullet actually killed JFK. I picked the .300 Win Mag. because it is fairly easy to rechamber a model 70 Win or 700 Rem to that caliber and it is definently a make sure weapon in terms of killing power, although the venerable '06 or even a .308 can be hot loaded to specs that approach the power of the .300 Win Mag. I hope this adequately addresses your questions, and welcome to this forum. Respectfully: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thank you for the information. It was very professional. You are an asset to this form. I too, beleive the above post. I heard the shot and watched the hit. Tosh Plumlee

[ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> However, he also calls me a xxxx. There is a big difference between being asked what happened and doing the best you can to tell what happened, and being accused of lying when you have done your best. Other of Mr. reitzes'objections, so-called inconsistencies, have for the most part resulted from his extracting materials out of context, and in other ways misrepresenting the materials. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Judith: I for one fully understand. Sometime people will do anything for a buck and call it truth. Sometimes they even call them selves, "Mr. Truth". They are quick to tell anyone that will listen how honorable they are as they grin and slowly slip their hand into your back pocket. I too, knew Lee. Of course you can't trust anything I say. However, one time, I did see a pigion being born; and now I know for a fact pigions do exest. Tosh Plumlee

Larry: Good points. But my point being that there is still information sealed and It could be important, I think... I only stated that investigators I know were looking into what Ford said, or knew as far back as 1974-75. His statement was made after that, I think... I happen to think the Tom Downing information before the HSCA was formed might shed new light on the Rosellie matter and the reason for an ABORT TEAM. I believe documentation was released to the public only what was wanted and specified in the request. That information was provided. I ask what was left out? That information would compromise on going operators and their operations and besides it was not spacificaly ask for only the Castro assassination matter was given out to a later investigative committee. Now I know if there are no documents then it did not happen and we should'nt go there. But I think going through another angle is important. I have only tried to point that other angle out.. Congressmen Tom Downing, one of the first people who tried to get a committee formed to look into the assassination. What information did his researchers provide in hopes of getting a committee budgeted? That might prove or disprove what was written in the book referenced as to what Ford said. Because nothing has surfaced by now does not mean it did not happen. If documents were available on some matters then a lot of us ops boys would be DEAD, like Rosellie and others and we would have been dead by the time the information hit the public. Some of us out there still do not understand how it works.... we don't take names and addresses in our game... We don't, or did'nt, care. One other point. What do I have to gain by trying to get what I THINK I know out there in Never Never land. I am not writing a book or want to be in books. If I am I don't care whats written. Its nothing but trouble for me. Its like fighting with a pack of wolves. Do you think I like that? I am only trying to help in my own way and in my own memory... in my own time. Thanks again Larry. I am working on those questions you ask... but as you know I have to be careful as to how I answer them because they have to check with known facts and documents or I have to leave it out; and I do have to PROBE my memory... I do not read books or have access to the vast material that is out there. As I have said... "I was just a little old pilot... I piled it here and I piled it over there. I piled it whereever they wanted it piled..." It was all their BS anyway Have a good one Tosh <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey, Tosh A here is one from the time I was a pilot to go along with what you said at the end of your message above; I used to be a pilot And flew just everywhere I'd pilot here and pilot there All in careful glee Then one day in '62 In inverted flight I flew Under a bridge and over a hedge And piled up my old J-3 But saved from the wreck And settling dust and debris Was the the pilot called ol' self destruct The pilot I used to be! {c} by Harry Dean <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Harry: I like that.... as you know "...old pilots.., bold, pilots, there are no old bold pilots...". 8th AF England from WWII

Larry: Good points. But my point being that there is still information sealed and It could be important, I think... I only stated that investigators I know were looking into what Ford said, or knew as far back as 1974-75. His statement was made after that, I think... I happen to think the Tom Downing information before the HSCA was formed might shed new light on the Rosellie matter and the reason for an ABORT TEAM. I believe documentation was released to the public only what was wanted and specified in the request. That information was provided. I ask what was left out? That information would compromise on going operators and their operations and besides it was not spacificaly ask for only the Castro assassination matter was given out to a later investigative committee. Now I know if there are no documents then it did not happen and we should'nt go there. But I think going through another angle is important. I have only tried to point that other angle out.. Congressmen Tom Downing, one of the first people who tried to get a committee formed to look into the assassination. What information did his researchers provide in hopes of getting a committee budgeted? That might prove or disprove what was written in the book referenced as to what Ford said. Because nothing has surfaced by now does not mean it did not happen. If documents were available on some matters then a lot of us ops boys would be DEAD, like Rosellie and others and we would have been dead by the time the information hit the public. Some of us out there still do not understand how it works.... we don't take names and addresses in our game... We don't, or did'nt, care. One other point. What do I have to gain by trying to get what I THINK I know out there in Never Never land. I am not writing a book or want to be in books. If I am I don't care whats written. Its nothing but trouble for me. Its like fighting with a pack of wolves. Do you think I like that? I am only trying to help in my own way and in my own memory... in my own time. Thanks again Larry. I am working on those questions you ask... but as you know I have to be careful as to how I answer them because they have to check with known facts and documents or I have to leave it out; and I do have to PROBE my memory... I do not read books or have access to the vast material that is out there. As I have said... "I was just a little old pilot... I piled it here and I piled it over there. I piled it whereever they wanted it piled..." It was all their BS anyway Have a good one Tosh

Nancy: Thats a good start. I'm not sure if that is the document, but the other two documents are the ones they were looking for... Of course it will be said that ALL the requested information was released. The letter I was refering to was the earlier one Congressman Tom Downing wrote asking for much the same thing. The only material released was about the Castro assassination... nothing about the information Rosellie had concerning a hit on the President. I am sure that information is still locked away somewhere. Thanks for your interest. Tosh

John, I've never heard of any of this, and I follow the Ford Presidential Library files pretty closely, as you know...keep this thread alive. I will try to track the whole statement down...this (if true) strongly supports our friend Tosh Plumlee. Note Ford purportedly mentions CIA surveillance reports and John Roselli, both of which would have been prominent in the De-Briefing of Tosh and Sergio at JM wave by Tracy Barnes and Wm. Harvey. The crossfire, if attributed to Ford, Is a huge confirmation of a forward shooter, or shooters, and of course, it brings Carlos Marcello back to top of the list...a warning, though, this could be back up cover story for the original blown cover story (LHO) Shanet <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Shanet: Not sure if this will help. And I am not sure about what Ford said. However, perhaps the following might help. Now I know when I say this some out there will say I'm nuts and my information is false. Its not. But so be it. Keep in mind all the CIA/Kennedy records are not released as of this date. If I remember correctly 2023 most of the complete CIA files will be released pertaining as to what the CIA knew and when. Within these files are two documents attributed to President Ford and his statements. I find it strange this information was withheld from the WC and Fords statements and information he had received was classified a matter of National Security, after 1976. Soon after that Rosellie was killed. The FBI had Rosellie under surveillance for most of the sixties and many times in the early mid seventies. However what is not known is Rosellie had a double that was used to throw the FBI off. Thus allowing Rosellie to come and go at ease, without being tailed. J Hoover knew of this arrangement and was part of the CIA cover plan. His SAC's were not. Question where did Rosellie "come and go" and why did he need a CIA double dispatched from WAVE station to cover for him? Rosellie already knew that ambush was already in the pipe. Rosellie is the one who leaked ( the rumor) this information to Military Intel Pentagon.. YA, YA, I know I'm Crazy, but let me continue. Rosellie was also a double agent for Military and worked into the crime families information pipe line and relayed this back to Hover and MI through WAVE Station and the CIA's Cuban desk.. There is a story here... but because it fits into the PIGEON birth format everyone misses it. If its not in black and white and you can't crumple it in your hand then there is nothing there... so It did not happen... I know that. But let me ramble, while I can... Its as good as what I have heard over the years. But what do I really know? Rosellie was working a deal with the United States Government. He was gonna be a free man with another name and ID even be relocated at government expense. The question (about what President Ford had said) came up at a close door session with Congressman Tom Downing and others on his staff. On two separate occasions they sent investigators to two or three different locations through out the country.., one in Phoenix Arizona, one to Miami, one to New Orleans. This was shortly before the HSCA was formed (not sure if it was "Rick Feeney who came to Phoenix or not; can't remember. However Bob Morrow had received the reports from Phoenix because he was trying to get on Downings investigative staff at the time and was working with Feeney in order to get appointed as an investigator into the JFK assassination. ( Morrow had been talking about his past counterfit Paso deal in Cuba and Nixion's letter getting him off the hook with the Department of Justice; he was working various staff members at the time.., staff members who were looking into the Kennedy mater) The question came up about the CIA information that President Ford had seen. And when the information was first available. The Congressman then tried to get the Miami and Dallas dispatches. They were quickly classified and withheld as a National Security matter It was said there release would jeopardies methods and operatives. Those two reports were sealed until, I think 2023. Now did Ford say that, what was in that book?... I think he did and quickly withdrew his statement after being briefed that he had just released classified National Security subject matter held by the CIA and the Military INTEL... Why was it so important to hold this information back... Because the other document that President Ford saw while in office was the one where MI and the CIA sent a team to abort the assassination... If that is true then THEY knew, perhaps not all the ins and outs and the whos and whos nots.. but they knew. Now does that make a conspiracy? We will not know until 2023 and all concerned will be really dead. But what do I know?. I am not allowed to "speculate" or have "opinions". Pilots are not allowed those luxuries. Hope you find something in here that will help your leg work... The best to you Tosh Plumlee

John, I've never heard of any of this, and I follow the Ford Presidential Library files pretty closely, as you know...keep this thread alive. I will try to track the whole statement down...this (if true) strongly supports our friend Tosh Plumlee. Note Ford purportedly mentions CIA surveillance reports and John Roselli, both of which would have been prominent in the De-Briefing of Tosh and Sergio at JM wave by Tracy Barnes and Wm. Harvey. The crossfire, if attributed to Ford, Is a huge confirmation of a forward shooter, or shooters, and of course, it brings Carlos Marcello back to top of the list...a warning, though, this could be back up cover story for the original blown cover story (LHO) Shanet <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Slap! Deb (I just had to do that) java script:emoticon('') <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm glad to see you still have your sense of humor... Tosh