Nic Martin

Found this article today, and you can read all of it over at PalmBeachNews, but here's just the part about 11-22:

But the seminal moment in his personal history, Valenti said, came on Nov. 22, 1963, as he rode in a motorcade in Dallas, seven cars behind President John F. Kennedy. The events of those hours led to his selection as Lyndon Johnson's first special adviser.

"He sent a Secret Service agent to get me at Parkland Hospital and said to me, 'I need you to come back to Washington and handle some things for me.' Next thing I knew, I was on Air Force One."

The Texas-born Valenti said LBJ made two decisions that fateful day that Valenti described as visionary.

First, he refused to leave JFK's body behind despite the urging of the Secret Service and military officials who wanted to get him airborne as soon as possible.

"He told them, 'I'm not going anywhere until the president's body is on this plane.' Can you imagine the public reaction if he had left without him? How people would say he was so anxious to be president that he left his fallen leader behind?" Valenti asked.

Secondly, LBJ decided to have a federal judge administer the oath of office on the plane, "even though constitutionally, he was already president. He asked Jackie to come up from the rear where she was sitting next to JFKs flag-draped coffin. I had heard the words 'catatonic state,' but I didn't know what they meant until I saw her come walking up, taking these little mincing steps. Her eyes were open but they were opaque, they weren't seeing anything.

"And I saw the Constitution acted out right in front of me," Valenti said. "The president is dead. The president lives. We go on."

After three years in the Johnson administration, he went to Hollywood as president of the Motion Picture Association of America.

Nic,

Though not of the outside, there ae a series of pictures taken of the inside in the Armstrong Exhibits to the WC Hearings at 19H36 +

CE 2427 at 25H526 has a picture of the Closed sign posted in front of the Carousel.

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I'd seen the CE pictures, forgot to mention that. I've been through those exhibits more times than I can count, always hoping to catch something that'll trigger a thought.

And, Roger, thanks for information on the film. Although it's not intended for my age range ( ;D ) I'll look into that, definitely!

It sounds like a load of BS to me. There's just too many things wrong with it. Too many possibilities for error. Too many people involved at the scene. I believe it was a conspiracy, yes, but with lots of people involved at a higher level - not all at the scene.

Lucky you Nic to be that close. 

Sweet on hearing about your lizard. 

I guess I am lucky to be close to NARA and you are lucky to be that close to Dallas.

Good trip. Hope you find everything you want to find. 

Send back some good pictures. 

Do me a favor if you can.

Your very young can you go to the area where Zaphruder filmed and see just how far you can go with the camera over to the steps.  See if a person were standing about where the three men stood if you can see any parts of their heads at all or how much of their bodies would have showed up?  I would love to have a straight answer on that once and for all.

I would appreciate this more than you can ever dare dream.

Thanks,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not "close," really, it's like a four hour drive just to the center of Dallas, but I am closer than a lot of people here. :]

I will definitely take pictures, I took pictures last time but it was before I knew as much as I knew now, so it was mainly just of the landmarks ( Knoll Fence, Triple Underpass, standing on the X and looking up at the Book Depository while trying not to get hit by the speeding traffic ).

I'll definitely check that, I'll try to take pictures for you if I can get my hand on enough film. The good news is that we're bringing our digital camera & our laptop with us, but the bad news is there's something my stepdad wants to take pictures of later in the day, so we might have to load the Dallas pics while in the car. Fun, huh? So you're looking for the men on the stairs, or for a man behind the fence?

EDIT: George, thanks SO much for that map, that's WONDERFUL, I appreciate it soooo much!

Steve: Thanks again! The last I heard, they were refurbishing the Texas Theater due to it's historical significance.

I'm going back to Dealey Plaza in April ( will be in the area and plan on stopping by ), and likely in November, but I haven't seen the "Other Sights" - Tippit scene, Texas Theater, etc. I'm having terrible trouble finding directions other than 1963 maps ( and with how things change, I'm not sure they'd be of much use ). Anyone know of any directions? At all? ..Bueller?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nic

I could recomeend that you order a Dallas street atlas from Amazon.

I cant' find my copy right now to give you the name.

Or you could get the DELORME TEXAS ATLAS and a Street map in a convenience store...

[i posted one scan of mine on another thread called Dealey Plaza Map}

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could go into a store around here and buy a Dallas street map, but I can't find street names for the Texas Theater, and I USED to have it around here somewhere, but my memory's shot due to stress ( waiting on SAT scores and recovering from a 2nd-degree burn on my foot ) and my room's a current mess due to scrambling to find a lizard that was hiding underneath my dresser.

I'm going back to Dealey Plaza in April ( will be in the area and plan on stopping by ), and likely in November, but I haven't seen the "Other Sights" - Tippit scene, Texas Theater, etc. I'm having terrible trouble finding directions other than 1963 maps ( and with how things change, I'm not sure they'd be of much use ). Anyone know of any directions? At all? ..Bueller?

To all of those who have e-mailed me and posted here with the kind words, I deeply appreciate what you have said and hope you understand that I am not exiting here as I did at Lancer. That is, I am not upset with this excellent forum as I was with the way Lancer turned on it's researchers. I have come to terms with the assassination recently and have also been restricted with opportunities to become involved in exchanges due to personal family crisis that have arisen. In the past four months, I have taken over the overnight shift on the department, which limits my exposure to the forum initially, then add to this the failing health of my parents and in-laws, I simply do not have the time to commit to this forum as I would prefer. The discoveries that I have recently made have engulfed my available time and also have drained me as many of the questionable issues of the assassination may be becoming quite clear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish my best for you and your family, and I hope everything turns out as well as it possibly could.

I suppose, I'm not exactly what anyone thinks of as a normal American teenager.

Anyone that rebels against the status quo is seen as "weird," nowadays, though. If you take time to think about things ( especially forty year old murder cases ), you're "weird." You're not supposed to question things, I don't think, you're just supposed to be happy with things as you're handed. Having a thirst for knowledge is about as "weird" as anything.

I'm certainly not certifiably insane, but definitely eccentric. I don't like the idea of NOT knowing anything about something. I want to know a little about a lot, and some people try to make me ashamed about this, but I'm not.

I'm one of those people, who has to learn something for themselves, who can't take what anyone says as gospel. If you tell me something's too hard, I have to try it. If you tell me something's too hot, I have to try it. I cannot take anyone's word for it. This case is much the same way. I cannot take anyone's story about it.

When I was about, thirteen, I think, I ordered a copy of "Helter Skelter," and I read it in about a day. And a few years ago, I was looking into the OJ Simpson case again, and worked out in my head exactly why the bodies were where they were, et cetera ( random trivia about me: The first thing I ever read all the way through was the Houston Chronicle article about the OJ case right after it happened ).

This, supposedly, makes me "weird." I'm not "normal." But, if normal is ruining your life to have kids at 17 ( no kids. ever. ), and killing your braincells to be cool, then I'll pass on normal and take "weird" any day.

Al, you were the first one to be nice to me and make me feel welcome over at Lancer ( thanks for that ). It's a shame to lose such an admired researcher, and I hope you will reconsider, but I accept your choice if you don't.

  It may be beneficial to your 17-year old protoge, Ms. Martin, who, while eloquent for her age, is swimming in a sea of angst common to youth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

EXCUSE me? "Sea of angst?" Please, enlighten me as to how I'm swimming in a "sea of angst," since you seem to know so much about me. I'm really curious to know.

I don't mind being spoken of as a "protege," even though if I WAS - it wouldn't be under the guidance of John Ritchson, as intelligent as he is. However, there are worse things one could be referred to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Ms. Martin,

Your written words on this site are the basis for my remark. You have asked for people to think how they would "feel" if a Republican were shot; you have lambasted the masses for their concern over J Lo's hair; you have described the anguish of your grandmother when listening to Walter Cronkite's announcement. What you have discovered is you're not off the hook--people form opinions about you when you express yourself. Some you like;some you don't. That's the big risk in life. Now you have to decide if you care what people think. Remember the words of Robert Burns, "O wad some power the gift he gie us, to see ourselves as others see us."

Paul T.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The basis for my comment about a Republican being shot is that a specific person I know has wished the President dead ( although he's not the type of person to DO anything, of course ) - it amazes me that anyone would wish such a terrible thing on any person, regardless of political party, and I was simply curious if the only ones here were people only fascinated by this case due to losing one of their own party.

When you live in a small town, where you are mocked and people throw things at you for preferring to spend time reading than getting drunk ( and pregnant, as has recently been proven by a "friend" of mine ), yet one is cheered for having the latest CD - it is rather easy to be frustrated that any intellectual qualities do not matter to the masses any longer. You cannot say this is a GOOD thing.

If I cared what people thought, I'd have left this community when Mr. Vernon decided to attack me numerous times over at Lancer - the only reason I questioned YOU, was because I had NO clue where you were going with your inane commentary.

  You are quite correct Nic.

From my prospective you are hardly in need of [Mentoring] from any source much less the the kind of [Craft] I have been involved with in the past.

I think you are finding your way quite nicely thankyou, and would council you to keep on as you're doing.

About all I could offer someone like you would be a few new licks on a guitar. 

I pick a 12-string BTW, and love the old ballads.

I just wish we could get more young people like you out of their X-Boxes and into the real world as it were, even if it is virtural, you are still interacting with real people, and dealing with relevent issues of global implications.

Question? Do your family and friends [Really] know what you are doing on this forum and how you are thought of by some of the other researchers, including myself?

Respectfully and with Best Regards:

P.S. "Sea of Angst?"  Come on here Drill Sgt...Give us a break!!! I was 17 when I enlisted and was leading men in combat before I was old enough to drink a beer in a bar. And Nic, I was also mostly home schooled and self taught and while most other kids were reading Dick & Jane and the Cat in the Hat, I was soaking up and digesting Plato's Republic and I would refer you to the Allegory of the Cave, if you havn't read it already. It will perhaps give you some insight as to why you seem to foster so much derision from your peers, if I am correctly reading your situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, for one, thank you. :]

Everyone I know knows that I'm fascinated by the Kennedys ( including the assassination ), the second they see me. I always have a notebook with me to jot down random things that might pop into my head, I have 2 bookcases in my room of nothing but Kennedy books, and misc. notes taped to the wall to look at and see if anything else pops up in my head. My parents know that I'm on here, and my friends do as well. In fact, one friend told me, "If it was something useless, your knowledge would be disturbing. Instead, it's interesting." I don't even know how much of the research community thinks of me, though, some of them seem to like me on Monday and dislike me on Tuesday.

Thank you again for all the kind words. :]

I welcome Troglia's conventional and standard defenses,

they are an important part of the debate....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What debate? You prove LN's wrong, they state the same "point" again - just louder.

Posting these for Richard. :]

  It may be beneficial to your 17-year old protoge, Ms. Martin, who, while eloquent for her age, is swimming in a sea of angst common to youth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

EXCUSE me? "Sea of angst?" Please, enlighten me as to how I'm swimming in a "sea of angst," since you seem to know so much about me. I'm really curious to know.

I don't mind being spoken of as a "protege," even though if I WAS - it wouldn't be under the guidance of John Ritchson, as intelligent as he is. However, there are worse things one could be referred to.

Paul,

It's rather obvious you don't respect our opinions, calling them nonsensical, nor do you see the facts that have been posted here. You've ask questions in other threads, and we have responded. Now you've started yet ANOTHER thread calling our research BS. You, like most other LNs, choose to ignore the evidence presented. Try reading through some of the on-line seminars before you start another thread. If you did some of your own research instead of believing the LN tripe fed to you, you would at least be heading in the right direction. Explain why the autopsy photos show no large gaping wound in the back of the head as described by over 30 witnesses. Explain how a single bullet could have entered JFK's back, dropped 4 inches, bruised the upper lobe of the lung, then rose to exit the throat, striking John Connally 3 times, leaving the bullet nearly undamaged. Explain how this lone nut Lee Oswald had documented contacts with Cuban exiles, the CIA...forget it Paul, you don't really want to know. Looking forward to your next thread.

RJS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With every post you make, I adore you more and more.

The fact is that immediately no prints were found on the rifle, then all of a sudden a palm print was discovered (2 or 3 days later....) , probably because it was needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm leaving for an appointment, but wasn't it like a week later that the DPD found a print on the rifle after it had been to the FBI ( and that the FBI stated later in an internal memo stated they didn't trust the authenticity of the print )? I'll look up the exact phrase later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Found the information, sources listed as the WR, WCH, HSCA Report, High Treason, Best Evidence, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, The Kennedy Conspiracy, The Plot To Kill The President, Mafia Kingfish, and Act of Treason.

BELMONT, ALAN H., FBI agent; assistant to the director. One of the methods used to link Oswald with the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was purportedly used to kill JFK, was a palm print found inside the rifle by DPD Liutenant J.C. Day several days after the assassination - and not found by FBI experts immediately following the assassination. On August 28, 1964, Belmont received a memo that expressed FBI doubts as to the authenticity of the palm print. The memo red: "[WC General Counsel J. Lee] Rankin advised because of the circumstances that now exist there was a serious question in the minds of the Commission as to whether or not the palm print impression that has been obtained from the Dallas Police Department is a legitimate latent palm impression removed from the rifle barrel or whether it was obtained from some other source..."

If this is just BS, feel free to correct me, but it's on page 36 of the American paperback edition of "Who's Who in the JFK Assassination" by Michael Benson.

You have to remember that in 1963, we trusted the government much more than today, and we weren't as advanced as we are today. Now, I could edit an autopsy photo myself with Adobe Photoshop 7, but in 1963 - not even the government had completely mastered photo editing.

It wasn't until Watergate & the revelations that we had tried to kill Castro that doubt in the government appeared.

In 1963, it was not a federal crime to murder a President. I think that says a lot. How naive were we to think that couldn't happen again - whether it was a lone nut or a conspiracy?

The fact is that immediately no prints were found on the rifle, then all of a sudden a palm print was discovered (2 or 3 days later....) , probably because it was needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm leaving for an appointment, but wasn't it like a week later that the DPD found a print on the rifle after it had been to the FBI ( and that the FBI stated later in an internal memo stated they didn't trust the authenticity of the print )? I'll look up the exact phrase later.

Would JFK have been re-elected if he hadn't been shot? Probably not. Would he have been made into an icon like he has been? Definitely not. Was he a genuine specimen of a picture-perfect human being? No. Excluding the possibility of ( and the true end result of ) murder, would he have lived through a second term? Possibly, we can't really say for sure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nic,

IMO there is no question JFK would have been re-elected in '64. He would have thrashed Goldwater as bad as LBJ did. I also think it's why JFK was hesitant about civil rights. He didn't want to turn the South against him in '64. Once re-elected, I think civil rights would have been his main focus. I seriously think a Kennedy dynasty was in the making. Bobby would have followed his brother, and more than likely, Teddy would have followed Bobby.

RJS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMO, there was no chance for Ted after Chappaquiddick, but it took a pretty big pair to even TRY after that.

JFK, I think, had the intelligence to be a great President, but RFK, I believe, had the die-hard PASSION to change everything, which is why they couldn't risk him even getting the nomination.

I have this wacked out '70s flower-child belief that everyone has some good in them, and I can look at JFK and think, "That was a great man," regardless of his history and regardless that he cheated on his lovely wife. I've read both of the books you've mentioned and know what you say is true, but I still love this family.

Would JFK have been re-elected if he hadn't been shot? Probably not. Would he have been made into an icon like he has been? Definitely not. Was he a genuine specimen of a picture-perfect human being? No. Excluding the possibility of ( and the true end result of ) murder, would he have lived through a second term? Possibly, we can't really say for sure.

I'm fascinated by the Kennedy family, and have been for a few years, because even though they were extremely flawed people, they struggled to make themselves into something, even if that post, too, was marred by scandal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_______________________

HI Nic,

I disagree, by 63 JFK was a much loved president and I think he would DEFINATELY have been reelected. That is why he had to be killed.

Otherwise, I agree with your other points.

Dawn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looking at the 1960 electoral map, JFK only won by carrying the "big" states, and as anti-Kennedy as Texas was, he could pretty much guarantee a loss right there. But, there's not much actual fact behind either statement, because there's no die-hard proof that I've ever seen about just how loved or hated he was. Whatever anyone says they remember it being, it's just how it was in their area.

I have this wacked out '70s flower-child belief that everyone has some good in them, and I can look at JFK and think, "That was a great man," regardless of his history and regardless that he cheated on his lovely wife. I've read both of the books you've mentioned and know what you say is true, but I still love this family.

Would JFK have been re-elected if he hadn't been shot? Probably not. Would he have been made into an icon like he has been? Definitely not. Was he a genuine specimen of a picture-perfect human being? No. Excluding the possibility of ( and the true end result of ) murder, would he have lived through a second term? Possibly, we can't really say for sure.

I'm fascinated by the Kennedy family, and have been for a few years, because even though they were extremely flawed people, they struggled to make themselves into something, even if that post, too, was marred by scandal.

That is creepy. Thanks for the link, though!

Nic,

When it comes to Politics, I'm certainly no liberal.

I'm a Libertarian, to be honest about it.  I tend to be fiscally ultra-conservative (small government, lower taxes, less nuisancesome regulation, personal responsibility, etc) but socially moderate to liberal (government has no business in my private life, get off my back, etc).

It doesn't matter to me if an elected official is a Republican, a Democrat, or of a different party.  America is OUR country, OUR elected government.  ONLY the voters (and our duely legislated laws) have the right to remove that person from office.  Neither a lone nut gunman nor a conspiratorial cabal holds that right over the voters.

Yes -- I, too, am offended and deeply concerned that the public is more interested in J-Lo or whatever slut-du-jour is in vogue at the time than in serious topics.  I don't know if it is just my perception as I grow older or if it is actual fact, but it seems to be getting worse as time passes. 

Regards,

Frank

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, a Libertarian! Well, at least now I know I'm not the only one leaning that way. I'm still irritated that I couldn't vote this time around ( you have to be 17 and 10 months by September to vote in a November election in Texas, and I'd just turned 17 in July ), but 3% of this county went for Badnarik, which surprised me.

And it is definitely getting worse - what happened to the Bob Woodwards? Today "investigative journalism" is why Brad & Jen broke up. My mother, for instance, is perfectly content to just watch 30 minutes of the news and then an hour of Entertainment Tonight & Access Hollywood. Sure, I like pop culture, but mainly how it relates to history. Why Bob Dylan's angst was popular in the tubulent sixties, or why Kurt Cobain's legend was secured because he played with a shotgun.

Just been informed by Gary Mack that it's not the International Trade Mart in Dallas, it was simply The Dallas Trade Mart. My mistake. Thanks for correcting that for me, Gary.

Personally, I think this book is a load of BS - I was excited to read it, but since 98% of the stuff published in "Vanity Fair" magazine is BS, I shouldn't have expected more from this. Has some good pictures, though.