Nic Martin
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Posts posted by Nic Martin
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Is the "Trade Mart" that was the destination of the motorcade the same "Trade Mart" in which Clay Shaw was involved? I've always been curious about this...
If the destination forced the route, then perhaps investigating the selection thereof is as important as the route itself...
Clay Shaw was the manager and director of the International Trade Mart in New Orleans from 1946-1963. JFK's luncheon was at the International Trade Mart in Dallas.
Maybe a very distant connection, but nothing solid, I'm afraid.
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I was looking through my collection of magazines and things, and I've only found one picture of the outside of the Carousel Club, which I promptly scanned in from an issue of "ParisMatch" dated December 14, 1963. Just out of curiousity, are there any more?
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Nic,
I must add publicly(as I've done privately), that your postings are some of the most articulate, intelligent, profound, and interesting insights(yes even for a young'un) that I have come across. You deserve every kudos you've received here. Don't ever lose your zeal to learn more, it will be you or someone just like you(I don't know if there is anyone like you) that will break this thing one day.
As to your question, as a life long Democrat, I would be shocked, dismayed, and saddened if something dreadful of this nature were to happen today to anyone. As much as I dislike the Bush administration, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Violence of this nature has no place in politics(or anywhere else for that matter).
I've discussed the JFK assassination with my 80 year old mother, who is a life long Democrat, as was my father. She often tells me she was watching As the World Turns, standing in front of the TV and behind her ironing board, when Walter Cronkite broke the news. My father was at my uncle's, helping with some remodeling(I was in school, 5th grade I think). My mother called my father and he rushed home. By the time I got home from school, they were glued to the TV, along with my 2 older sisters. They were all crushed and crying, and I think I was more crushed seeing them. I was more mad after first hearing the announcement at school(I was only 9), and didn't know what to think. It all scared the crap out of me.
Richard
Thank you Richard, you're definitely one of the most intelligent people here, and a major credit to this community, and I greatly admire you and your opinions on everything.
My grandmother turns 67 this year, and she remembers seeing Oswald get shot, and feeling so completely shocked. She doesn't remember doing anything but watching television for days. My mother was only a year and a half old at the time ( born in April 62 ), so she has no memories of it.
I disagree with Bush on civil liberties, but I would not wish harm to him or his family ( including his LOVELY wife Laura, who I insist is second only to Jackie Kennedy as far as my ideal First Lady ) - and I don't think anyone here would, but my challenge to anyone is - why wouldn't you care about that?
The news media today puts Gerald Posner up in a pretty little frame in their evening specials and insist, "Well, that's it, then." Later in the night, they'll talk about Britney Spears' new dress or if Jennifer Lopez is pregnant. It's FINE for them to gossip about pointless areas of the lives of celebrities ( most of which aren't even talented ), but if you even remotely suggest that a member of the government was involved in the murder of the President, you're written off as a psycho.
There's a popular UK comedian called Ali G, he's a well-educated white man who speaks in ebonics and has phrases such as "Is it because I is black?" I was watching his show on American HBO, and he was talking to someone from the CIA, and made the joke, "So, back to the grassy knoll, who actually shot JR?" ( Woo for 'Dallas,' and yes, I actually do know of things that happened in the 1980's ) And the guy did a double-take and paused and said, "JFK?" This, really stunned me - the death of our President is now a joke. We, sitting here, talking about this, are considered a JOKE - but people who make thousands of dollars snapping pictures of Jennifer Aniston buying coffee are encouraged.
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I plan on being a Presidential historian with emphasis on the Kennedy administration, and one of my main views is if it's happened once, and we don't know why or how, it can and will happen again.
Nic --
Very well said.
People ask me about my fascination with history. I always tell them that history repeats itself for several reasons:
1) The planet doesn't change very much or very quickly
2) People don't learn from their own history
3) People don't change very much or very quickly
Add these three together and we see why history is destined to repeat itself...
In this case, we are actively being *prevented* from learning, thus the repetition of history is all but assured. If one doubts, consider the fates of MLK and RFK, just to name a few.
I, for one, want to learn from our history and not see it repeated.
Regards,
Frank
Even though 98% of this forum ( if not more ) are liberal, I'd like to ask this.
How would YOU, personally, react, if a major political Republican figure was shot tomorrow? Putting aside your feelings, and putting aside your party of choice, how would YOU feel? I only ask because my grandmother remembers being in the living room of her house watching the television when Walter Cronkite announced the death of JFK, and she cried - she's voted straight Republican since her first ballot was cast, but she cried.
I, cannot imagine how I'd react. I get teary-eyed watching my recently-acquired "as-it-happened" CBS footage of the RFK assassination. I was one of millions who cried on 9/11. I DEEPLY care about this country and what happens to it, and I find it extremely screwed up that a man who pushed civil rights & the space program, can't even have his own murder solved once and for all because the public cares more about who Jennifer Lopez marries this week. I think it's pathetic.
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I had this feeling in my stomach before I even picked up my first pro-conspiracy book that Oswald was innocent - but believe me, if we had die-hard evidence, I would admit otherwise. Feelings can be wrong.
I have this drive to do the best I can for this case, even if it's not much. I want to help one more researcher in the generation after mine to get one step closer to the truth of why such a charismatic young man had to be killed in such a brutal, public display.
I plan on being a Presidential historian with emphasis on the Kennedy administration, and one of my main views is if it's happened once, and we don't know why or how, it can and will happen again.
When I was much younger, I wanted to be a detective. But here, at 17, the only case I spend any length of time researching is this one. I don't think you can choose to be a part of this case, I think it chooses you. But that's just me.
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Nic,
I totally agree with you. You are one smart 17 year old. You will be a brilliant historian. Great instincts, as well as research abilities. You're education is serving you well. (Says a lot about our school system, doen't it?)
))Dawn
Well, thank you.
I'm home schooled ( got sick of teasing because I was reading books on the history of the mafia when everyone else was going to the local football games - you can only take so much of that ), and now I think I'm learning more because I get to pursue more of my own interests without electives, extra homework, etc. -
I had this feeling in my stomach before I even picked up my first pro-conspiracy book that Oswald was innocent - but believe me, if we had die-hard evidence, I would admit otherwise. Feelings can be wrong.
I have this drive to do the best I can for this case, even if it's not much. I want to help one more researcher in the generation after mine to get one step closer to the truth of why such a charismatic young man had to be killed in such a brutal, public display.
I plan on being a Presidential historian with emphasis on the Kennedy administration, and one of my main views is if it's happened once, and we don't know why or how, it can and will happen again.
When I was much younger, I wanted to be a detective. But here, at 17, the only case I spend any length of time researching is this one. I don't think you can choose to be a part of this case, I think it chooses you. But that's just me.
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Greetings Nic:
First of all, IMO, you are hardly a SILLY 17yo who reads too many books. I find you to be articulate, even elegant in your posting and quite capable of holding your own in any discussion on this forum. It is people like you that people like me are trying to reach out to with factual and accurate information about the JFK assassination. Such is what drives and motivates me as much as my actual research for it is you and those like you who are going to have to pick up the torch when I am no longer able to work for whatever reason.
As for myself, Hell, if Al Carrier and Tosh are correct, which BTW, I think they are, I was not even supposed to survive Laos much less remain free to be a proverbial thorn in the side of the powers that be. I have been stabbed, shot, blown up, imprisoned, tortured, harrassed, and have been under constant attack ever since I GOT INVOLVED in the JFK affair. Am I paranoid? Hell no! Do I watch my back? You bet! If it wasn't for a certain kind of Insurance Policy I took out some time ago, and certain Markers I hold I doubt I would be on this forum at this point in time.
Remember, IT'S NOT PARANOIA when they really are out to get you.
Warmest Regards:
Well, thank you for the many compliments, I appreciate it.
The most I've gone through because of the JFK research is being ruthlessly teased by my peers, and thought of as insane by my family - the odd thing is, even if the government WAS out to get me ( hahah, imagine that ), they'd find that nobody off of this forum and two friends takes me seriously anyway.
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I'm not that paranoid, really, about being murdered or threatened, I don't think the government would waste it's time with a silly 17 year old that reads too many books..
Yet, I do question the motives of people a lot more, which is what caused me to start this topic.
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I was wondering if anyone here has a bit more paranoia than they did before they began researching. I know I'm definitely more observant now, and more skeptical, but with the risk involved by getting too close - does it make you paranoid? Do you question the motives of ordinary people?
I've noticed that I pick up on liars more easily in real life, and my mind works better at puzzle solving, and I pick up on things that seem to be unimportant details.
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Hm, I guess it's time for me to come clean.
Yes, I had a 30 year affair with Jack Ruby, and we murdered the Black Dahlia together, and sunk the Titanic, and oh no, it wasn't him that shot Oswald at all, it was a double made by the FBI to confuse people, and even though I met EVERY SINGLE PERSON in his life - absolutely none of them would remember me, because the Men In Black arrived and zapped their memory, and even though we lived in my grandparent's house, it wasn't built until 1979, and he didn't really die, he faked his death to get out of prison so we could be together in true love and harmony forever.
...Does anyone else see the problem in this story? Good, now why do you believe Judyth?
This has been a public service announcement.
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I don't intend to slam Judyth, but it's interesting that every time someone presented a good question, she attempted to made them feel lousy and like she only spoke to them out of the goodness of her heart, simply for not believing her 100%.
Do I get that way when someone asks me if I'm from Texas, or if I'm 17? No, why? Because I'm not lying. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
However, sad to watch any part of the community crumble, even if I disagree with them.
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Nic
What do you think about that Tippitt death scene, looks like a closely managed
group effort...I always had problems with the Tippitt murder, the number of
people (who didn't look like Odwald) being the chief difficulty.
shanet
It looks really planned, doesn't it? I mean, it's so clean, and almost predictable. It reminds me of like, watching a Marilyn Manson performance. Designed to shock and think, "Oh, it's so terrible, that poor police officer." But when you step back, it looks extremely theatrical and staged to the last detail.
I think a police officer had to die, to staple in everyone's mind that this guy had this problem with authority, and why else would Tippit have to die unless Oswald was supposedly scared of being arrested? If you didn't want to draw suspicion on yourself, why shoot a police officer in broad daylight?
If Oswald did it alone, he managed to murder the President of the United States in a packed Plaza in broad daylight, with only a VAGUE description of him getting out, and people doubting his guilt forty years later. WHY, would someone THAT intelligent, shoot a police officer in broad daylight with tons of witnesses nearby, and no one that could be mistaken as another suspect.
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P.S. Nic, don't feel too bad about your Mom not allowing Right Wing Books in the house. When my daughter was a pre-teen, I told her that I didn't want any of those $#%@*& "Beatles" records in the house. Then sometime later, I changed and was even trying to play their music on my guitar....:-)
Very interesting about the second police car, I'd heard of that before but never in detail.
My mom is one of those overly-religious Republicans that believes gays burn in hell and that George W Bush is the best President we've ever had. She didn't speak to my stepfather for a week after he voted for Perot instead of Bob Dole and we got Clinton for another four years. Considering her daughter is a pansexual Libertarian, you'd think she'd get over it, but nah.
Oh well, at least The Beatles still rock. I'm partial to George Harrison myself. ;D
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Agreed, many thanks!
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Great post, Dixie - wish I could get my hands on a copy of that book, but that's not likely ( anything that even looks as if it's against Republicans, my mother throws out - I had to buy & hide Robert F. Kennedy Jr's latest book because it's bashing George W )..
I'm loving all this info on Tippit, he's a character that's always interested me. As stated, Oswald couldn't be recognized by the vague description, so why was he stopped? Why didn't Tippit follow procedure?
The screenwriter in me has long since wondered if there was another officer in the car, who was dropped off a block away, to appear to be Oswald infront of witnesses. That, however, is incredibly far-fetched.
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hi nic,
i was once on james tagues store but have been unable to find it since, could you post a link to it?
cheers
john
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If you want a good deal on a lot of JFK books, check James Tague's online store - I've gotten 3 things from him and they're always in good condition when I get them. In fact, the first thing I bought from him was a signed copy of his book.
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I'd known about this ( I have "searches" set up on my DirecTV to alert me of anything even remotely Kennedy-related ), but since it was RFK, I didn't think anyone here would care.
The HC has, in past shows, accepted the idea of a conspiracy to murder RFK, but that's possibly because there's no Posner in that area.
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This board ( and Lancer, where I used to be an active member ) have helped me see the viewpoints of several other people, and made me reconsider my own at times.
I didn't join Wim's for one reason: because I KNEW it'd be taken over by Vernon. It was predictable. I haven't been over there to check it out, but hearing from you - I'm guessing that's what's going on.
There's always going to be someone, on any topic, trying to bring you down - and there's always going to be infighting. I REFUSE to fight with anyone, it's silly, it's childish, and there is no point. People who attempt to offend me, will simply be ignored. I'm not going to take time out of my day, to get bent out of shape over what someone I'll never meet thinks about me ( hell, I don't care what people I KNOW think about me ).
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When Posner can pull that cucumber out of his arse ( he always looks so rigid ), maybe I'll pay attention to a word he says.
Until then? ...Nah, I don't think so.
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Well, I personally think it shows how Ruby expected to be treated was by him saying, "You know me, I'm Jack Ruby!" in City Hall.
Maybe Ruby took such great pride in this thing to do for the "big" boys, he thought they'd protect him. Then when Oswald's carried off on the stretcher, and when he realizes he only got off one shot and there's a risk that Oswald would survive, the threat of failure would hang over his head, which explains his being upset directly after the shooting, and then calm when they told him Oswald had died. Maybe everything's being read too much into, and Oswald had some suicide pact. Who the hell knows. Anything in this case is about as logical as the next thing you can throw out there, and no one has any idea if it's true or not.
The HSCA report on his polygraph notes that Dr. William Beavers had examined Ruby 9-10 times, and noted him as a "psychotic depressive," yet on the day of the examination, Beavers felt the "depressed" element had been diminished. But the report also notes that Ruby asked his attorney to leave the room and the District Attorney ( who was asking for the death sentence ) to stay in the room. ... Think about that. Ruby is quoted as saying to his lawyer, "As a matter of fact, I prefer Bill Alexander to you, you're supposed to be my friend." Herndon even botched Ruby's "control" questions on the polygraph, so who the hell knows if he was lying or not, if they can't even get the CONTROL questions right?
Gah, I'm jumping all over the place - lack of sleep does that to you.
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Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis' sister, Lee Radziwill, IS still alive.
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Happy new year. :]
I'm mostly researching the Paines & their relationship with the Oswalds. It's been done before, but I'm starting off close to the case and working my way out.
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The main question to me being, WHY would it be Ruby? JUST because he could get into the DPD? I don't think the mafia alone would honestly trust a club owner with killing a guy they think could implicate them in the murder of the President. Ruby wasn't a mob gunman. He was a glorified gunrunner, so why would they mob trust him? Why would they RISK Oswald's survivial?
This has always irritated me. If the mafia was all this revolved around, they could have shot Oswald from a distance and the murder would have never been solved.
If you make a comment that the American public must disbelieve all theories of a conspiracy, and some unknown club owner with vague links to the mafia shoots your prime suspect, closing the idea of a trial for the murder of the President, all questions seem asked & answered about the execution of LHO. The only reason for not going with a mob hitman was if they needed a scapegoat then and there, to close all doors before they even opened - which, with comments previously made, makes the most sense.
))
I'm home schooled ( got sick of teasing because I was reading books on the history of the mafia when everyone else was going to the local football games - you can only take so much of that ), and now I think I'm learning more because I get to pursue more of my own interests without electives, extra homework, etc.
Carousel Club
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Thanks, I hadn't seen those before. The billboard in the top right-hand corner seems to read the same for both sets of images, so either that billboard never changed, or these images were taken around the same time.