Thomas Graves

Dear George, LOL -- Tommy

"Dear James" Gosh. I guess the one-and-only Oswald (i.e. Lee Harvey Oswald) really "bulked up" while he was in the Marine Corps, huh? Guess he done "maxed out" at one-fifty, jus' like his Momma done said! Rekken' it had anythin' to do with all them push ups an' pull ups he done, and all them latrines he dug, and all them tents he puts up an' puts down, etc, etc, and all them beefs and taters he wolfed down? An' by golly, looks like that rascal done lifted hisself up one-an-one-halft whole inches on his tippy-toes when they was a-measurin' him! (Either that or the sar-gent who done measured 'em done drunk ten more beers than he usually done did the night a-fore!) An' can you be-lieve it? That there well-over-hung (lol) sar-gent made such a serious one-and-one-halft whole inches mis-take on them critically im-por-tant DISCHARGE papers! Dang, that there well-over-hung (lol) sar-gent done made hisself a CAPITOL OFFENSE didnt' he? I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean ... Them DISCHARGE papers is more critically im-por-tant to The Corps than the INDUCTION ones, ain't they?) -- Tommy Thank Gawd that one-and-only Oswald (i.e. Lee 'Arvey Oswald) didn't et up all the hot steamin' an' stinkin' spagettees you likes ta throw up on the walls 'round this here FORUM, cuzzin' iffin he done did, he wouda done eggsploded by now!

"Dear James" HUH? (I'm doing you a favor by pointing out your obvious typo.) Your buddy, (lol) -- Tommy

Dear George, It's my understanding that a 201 file can also be opened on someone who doesn't actually work for The Agency at the time, but in whom The Agency has some sort of "operational interest," e.g., the possibly of having that person "work", wittingly or unwittingly, for The Agency at some point in the future. Please correct me if I'm wrong. -- Tommy

Personal note for Sandy Larsen: "For example. LOL" -- Tommy

I believe the Dear Counselor (and a few others) and I went all over this before you joined a little more than a year ago, Sandy. If DC and I get "into it" again on this thread, it's bound to become a huge time-wasting, bottomless pit, again. Have you tried using the "search" function to find the old thread(s) on it? Just a suggestion. -- Tommy

If Mexico City Soviet Embassy-based KGB officer Nikolai Leonov was, as I firmly believe, the blond guy photographically "captured" in the October 2, 1963, LILYRIC and LILIMITED photos, above, then the CIA most certainly knew who and what he was at the time (as is indicated by their writing his abbreviated name "Leon" below photo #6 of the October 2 film strip -- and by typing it on the October 2 LILYRIC index), so the most intriguing question for me is why the CIA didn't "out" him to the HSCA, and the only non-conspiratorial reason I can think of is that the CIA didn't want the Ruskies to know that they knew who and what the little, thin-faced, blond dude was -- a KGB officer based in the Mexico City Soviet embassy. All of which makes me wonder: Could Leonov's photos have been the ones Head of Station Winn Scott was writing about in a 11/23/63 letter to CIA's Head of Western Hemisphere, J.C. King when he said "they are of a certain person who is known to you", or words to that effect? Could he have been referring to the October 2 photos of KGB officer Nikolai Leonov rather than one of the same-day photos of big, burly, balding "Mexico City Mystery Man"?

Bumped for Sandy Larsen (and any other intelligent, open-minded members out there). (lol)

Dear Counselor, The-one-and-only Oswald (i.e. Lee Harvey Oswald) was 5' 9 1/2", actually. Like most young men, Lee Harvey Oswald may very well have exaggerated his "size" from time-to-time. (LOL) At least as regards his height. (No need to prevaricate about his weight after he joined the Marine Corps and started doin' all them pushups an' sit ups, and eatin' all them meat 'n taters!) And then, of course, if-and-when said undersized young men are unlucky enough to become part of a high-stakes "marked card" / "barium meal" Cold War Era "mole hunt," things really get weird, don't they. Counselor? -- Tommy

In his HSCA testimony Eusebio Azcue Lopez, former Cuban Consul in Mexico City, said the "Oswald" he had dealt with in the Cuban Consulate was "a man over 30 years of age," "very thin, very thin faced," and was "blond, dark blond." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/Hscaascu.htm Edit: Note Leonov's thin face in this photo. From the For What It's Worth Department: According to the translation of the Mexican Police interrogation of Sylvia Duran on November 23, 1963, she said the "Oswald" she had dealt with was "blond, short, and poorly dressed." https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3025#relPageId=7&tab=page (The 5' 3 1/2" Duran has stated elsewhere that blond "Oswald" she dealt with was about the same height as her.)

Here's an undated photo showing 5' 7" Nikolai Leonov meeting with Raul and 6'3" Fidel Castro. -- Tommy

Tracy, I agree. It's not that hard to kinda stand on your tippy toes during the measurement. Just have to be kinda sneaky about it, and do it subtly. I did it once, just for the heck of it, to make me appear to be 6' 6", 230 pounds instead of my true, dwarf-like 6' 4 3/4" , 230 pounds. Regardless, so much false biographical information was intentionally put into the-one-and-only Oswald's (i.e. Lee Harvey Oswald) files over the years, I wonder if misrepresenting his true 5' 9.5" height as 5' 11" might be another example? -- Tommy

On October 2, 1963, a Russian KGB officer was photographed near the Mexico City Soviet Embassy. It was one day after the "Oswald / Kostikov" phone call, and eleven minutes before the famous, burly "Mexico City Mystery Man" was caught on film by the same CIA camera. Here's the dude I'm talking about, KGB officer Nikolai Leonov. (Leonov, a staunch Putin supporter, rose in the KGB to the rank of Lt.General and is currently a member of the Russian Parliament.) Above:: The same guy photographed on the same day and in the same place but by a different CIA camera (LILIMITED) Below: The same guy interpreting for Fidel Castro and Mister K in Moscow a couple of months earlier. The Wikipedia article on Leonov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Leonov Edit: Look at that weak chin in all the photos, above. Please note the thin face in the photo of Leonov interpreting for Castro, above, and in another photo of him, below. Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue said the thin, blond-haired Oswald he'd dealt with had "a very thin face".

Dear James, Oh well, sometimes you can't even lead a really, really, really stubborn horse to water, much less make him drink. -- Tommy PS What did you say about whether or not Leonov was "the guy in the screen capture in the Cuban embassy"? I honestly don't remember. "A while ago"? Last week? Month or two ago? Four or five? Years? To save me the time of searching hopelessly for it, would you mind briefly restating what you said? Thank you in advance, PPS So you don't trust photographic comparisons of people? What about in Harvey and Lee?

Dear Paul, And to think I thought you were aware that John Newman, Peter Dale Scott, and Bill Simpich have all written that James Angleton's right hand gal, Ann Egerter, opened a 201 file titled "Lee Henry Oswald" on the one-and only Oswald (i.e., Lee Harvey Oswald) on December 9, 1960, more than a year after he had shown up in Moscow, and that in addition to a wrong middle name, a lot of other (Popov's-Mole-oriented) bogus biographical information "marked cards" about Lee Harvey Oswald, some of which had already been created in State Department, etc, documents about him going back to October 30, 1959 (if not even earlier), was intentionally added to that file (and files which bifurcated from it) over the ensuing three years. So, ..... Charlotte Bustos, who probably didn't realize that Henry wasn't the correct middle name for Oswald, did what she was told to do with the intentionally-bogus biographical information that was given to her by her mole-hunting boss, and wrote up two superficially-similar but very-different-on-a-biographical-level cables about Lee Harvey Oswald on 10/10/63, and she called him "Lee Henry Oswald" because, to reiterate, that's what her Popov's Mole - hunting boss had led her to believe Oswald's name was, and selectively sent the two different cables off to suspected or not-suspected Intelligence headquarters and agencies in accordance with the new, October, 1963, Mexico City-based mole hunt, i.e., to find out who had been manipulating and impersonating Lee Harvey Oswald. And the rest as they say is history EDIT: grist for the Harvey and Lee And The Two Marguerites cottage industry. -- Tommy

"Dear James" It seems to me you didn't really address the point I spent so much time and effort trying to make, above. So, let me try again: No one in the CIA directly claimed that the husky-looking fellow (known to assassination researchers as the "Mexico City Mystery Man") in the October 2, 1963, photograph(s) was Oswald; Anne Goodpasture in Mexico City and Charlotte Bustos in Washington D.C. only kinda alluded to the possibility that it was. And why did they do that? Because the CIA people in possession of the wrong-day photograph(s) of Mystery Man and the pertinent 9/28/63 and 10/01/63 phone taps knew it wasn't Oswald, and since they were trying to figure out who had impersonated Oswald twice over the phone, they intentionally threw this Mystery Man's (possibly KGB agent Yuri Moskalev) photo into "the mix," probably because this dude was the only captured-on-film, casually-dressed American-looking guy who was not only reasonably close in height and weight to that of Robert E. Webster, Oswald's fellow 1960 defector (whose biometrics of 5'10", 165 pounds had been "given" to Oswald by FBI Agent Fain for use in the 1960 Popov's Mole mole hunt), but also who was caught on film by the CIA's Mexico City cameras very close to the same day (October 1) when the impersonator had identified himself as "Oswald; O-S-W-A-L-D" over the phone and elicited from the Russian on the other end that he had met with the sometime-alleged KGB director of assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, Valiery Kostikov, a few days earlier. Goodpasture and Bustos did this, or made reference to it, in the hope that it would trip up the Intell "insiders" who must have been impersonating and / or manipulating Oswald, and that the bad guys would sooner later show their (marked) cards to the mole hunters. -- Tommy PS You say that "the" cable which you posted, above (actually there were two similar but-critically-different batches of outgoing-from-headquarters cables written by Bustos on 10/10/63) "Had a lot of accurate biographical details about Oswald" in it. LOL! Only a true believer in the Harvey & Lee and Two Marguerites theory could say that with a straight face, James. The one-and-only Oswald's weight at autopsy was 131 pounds, and his own mother said he never weighed more than 150 pounds in his life, yet the CIA headquarters cable you posted above has him at a Robert E. Webster-like 5'10" and 165 pounds. (Ya think maybe because FBI agent John Fain had sneakily attributed Webster's biometrics to Oswald in early 1960, and they in turn had been incorporated into Oswald's computerized CIA files by a Russia Division Counter-Espionage officer, Bill Bright, back in the day? Hmmm?) I could go on and on about the fantastic "biographical accuracy" of the 10/10/63 CIA cable you posted, above. But I'm getting tired now, so suffice it to say that Angleton's right-had gal, Ann Egerter, had given Lee Harvey Oswald the name "Lee Henry Oswald" when she finally opened a 201 File on him way back in on December 9, 1960, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=112083&relPageId=2 more than a year after the one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald had shown up in Moscow. For another thing, did you know that Marina's maiden name (taken from her uncle) was Prusakova, not Pusakova? LOL There are so many inaccuracies in the cable you posted above, it's not even funny. Yet you probably take them as "hard evidence" of an elaborate 10-plus year-old Harvey and Lee "Oswald Doppelganger Project" rather than what they really were -- "barium meal" / "marked card" intentional inaccuracies that were put into Oswald's files and cables over the years for use in at least two different mole hunts. -- Tommy

Good one, David. I may have to start calling you "Word Twister". LOL (Are you a lawyer by any chance?) -- Tommy PS Let me spell it out for you, Counselor. You wrote, "Now you're thinking like an honest investigator." Why didn't you just say, "Now you're thinking like an investigator." ? You threw the word "honest" in there for a reason, and it was to suggest that I'm not an honest "investigator," or "researcher," or "student of the assassination," or whatever. The operative word here is "honest". A totally unnecessary word in the sentence you wrote, except for the purpose that you used it for - to very "subtly and oh-so wittily" slander me by insinuating that I am, except in this one very fluky instance in which I must have gotten very lucky indeed, a dishonest "researcher," or "student of the assassination," or whatever, ... Dear Counselor.

deleted

No, I really mean it, david. After all, as you insinuated, I'm not an honest investigator. (BTW, Is an "investigator" kinda like "student"?)

Bumped for david josephs

Thanks, david! So, you hold the Whole Agency accountable for the Crime of the 21st Century. Sounds like the perfectly sane, non-paranoiac thing to do. LOL Carry on! (Got matches?) Alexander Dugin (Putin's Rasputin), Steve Bannon, and Julian Assange would be proud of you! -- Tommy PS If it isn't you who's really the one who's truly obsessed with Harvey and Lee, why then do you throw so many long, hot-steaming-spaghetti Harvey and Lee-based posts against the walls of this forum?

Dear James, Well, I guess you better start believing it, Old Bean. After all, I'm just a stumbling, fumbling student, whereas you're the level-headed, critically-thinking, non-paranoiac, world-renowned, mistake-free expert. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, ............. Question: Did Duran ever say anything about the "Oswald" visa application photos that she did (supposedly) deal with on 9/27/63? Like, ... what she did with the ones of the "short, blond" dude (probably short, blond, thin-faced KGB officer Nikolai Leonov, who later claimed to have met with Oswald at the Mexico City Soviet Embassy on SUNDAY, October 29, sans Kostikov), you know, the short, blond dude who claimed to be Oswald? Or had Leonov himself given her those photos of LHO to put on the application??? Naw, she wouldn't admit that even if it were true, would she. Silly me. Or ... like .... whether or not she attached them to the application, herself? I mean, stuff like that? I mean, was she ever shown the existing Visa Application As We Know It and asked whether or not she like ... even recognized it? Stuff like that. Thanks, -- Tommy Edit: Short, blond, thin-faced, thirty-something, Mexico City-based KGB officer Nikolai Leonov, below. (In this photo, he's interpreting for Castro in Moscow.) Here's Mexico City-based KGB officer Nikolai Leonov, captured in a Mexico City CIA photo taken on October 2, 1963. Cuban Consul Azcue said the short, blond, thin-faced Oswald he'd dealt with on September 27, 1963, was wearing a "Prince Of Wales" suit. Is Leonov wearing a suit like that in this October 2 photo? The October, 1963, CIA index document that accompanied the "strips" of developed photos of known and unknown people secretly photographed in Mexico City has this photo labeled "Leon," as in short for "Leonov". Azcue himself said he thought the photo below might be of the "short, blond Oswald" he dealt with on September 27. Here's a description of Nikolai Leonov as being "short and blond". https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48483#relPageId=3

bumped with added explanation by me She's in the dead center of this frame from Weigman. I've got a sneakin' hunch that the short, dark-complected, headscarf-wearing woman at the far left of this un-cropped version of Altgens 6, below, is one of the gals in the "Gloria Calvery Group Of Five Headscarf-Wearing Women" -- June Dishong I believe her real name was Inez Juanita Hart Dishong, whom an obituary-type website says died in 1998, at the age of 89, and who had lived in Irving, Texas. After she died, her daughter told Don Roberdeau that she had worked for Higginbotham-Bailey Company, a wholesale dry goods distributing company situated a few blocks away at 900 Jackson Street.

One can only hope that Robin Unger and Don Roberdeau will make the proper adjustments to their (unfortunately) misleading Thierry "Fake News" Speth-based labeled photos / frames regarding the identification of spectators on Elm Street during the assassination, particularly in regards to the previously misidentified "Gloria Calvery", and her lighter-complected co-workers "Karan Hicks" and "Carol Reed", whom we now now were, in reality, Native American TSBD employee Stella Mae Jacob (for dark-skinned "Calvary"), and (not necessarily in the same order as the gals listed above), Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharron Simmons. The grossly mislabeled Z-Frame. That's not Gloria Calvary [sic], it's Native American Stella Mae Jacob. The real Gloria Calvery is the large, dark-headscarf-wearing gal standing between so-called "Peggy Burney" and the real John Templin. -- Tommy

bumped