Cliff Varnell

When Ian MacKaye (Minor Threat vocalist) told H.R. (Bad Brains vocalist) they were "hardcore" H.R. said, "Like in porno?"

Speaking of Mickey Mouse... That's it? Joannides trained Alpha-66 therefore he smeared make-up on, stood out in Dealey Plaza giving a hold-fire signal during the shooting sequence, then sat on the curb for a while where he could be photographed. Not Disney. Loony Tunes.

A condescending know it all who challenges my bonafides -- you're the right guy. Evidently not. You keep harping on it. I asked a simple question that you are unwilling to answer -- what "other factors" did you base your ID of Joannides upon? Authoritarian personality types melt down at the simplest of challenges. No, we're taking credit for any non-pornographic use of the word "hardcore" after 1979.

There was a second article you didn't read. The purpose of this thread was to explore the possibility Felipe Vidal Santiago and Roy Hargraves were photographed as Dark Complected Man and Umbrella Man. Relevant to this discussion is the observed actions of DCM and UM in Dealey Plaza photographs, as well as an eyewitness description of UM's actions. Umbrella Man and Louis Witt have prominent noses -- Roy Hargraves does not. Scratch Roy Hargraves as UM. That leaves us with a reasonable question: what was Santiago/DCM doing in Dealey Plaza?

All I did was ask what Felipe Santiago (or George Joannides) and Roy Hargraves were doing in Dealey Plaza. Seems like a reasonable question.

No, Melissa Mohr had nothing to do with the origination of hardcore punk rock. You didn't read the material. I was the first promoter of "hardcore punk rock." My friends and I saved the word "hardcore" from a strictly pornographic connotation and added the suffix "-core" to the language. Dozens of words. You'll never approach that kind of impact.

Factually incorrect. I asserted Averell Harriman held the most individual responsibility for the Vietnam War, and you said he was tied. I asserted the Golden Triangle cabal took down the French Connection and you agreed. Yes, it was a lot of material to go over and this is not my main writing pursuit. You ID'd Joannides as DCM on the basis of clothing and other factors. Rather than take advantage of the opportunity to explain these "other factors" you decided to pitch a fit Spare me. I had impact on the lexicon. https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/In-a-Word/2022/0207/Getting-to-the-heart-of-words-made-with-core#:~:text=The suffix -core comes from,groups such as political parties. The suffix -core comes from hard core, which at first (1841) referred to broken bricks or stones that formed the hard substratum of roads and foundations. By the 1930s, it was an adjective that described the “base” or “core” of groups such as political parties. It then made its way into pornography and, in the 1970s, music, where it was used for “very loud, fast rock,” according to Merriam-Webster. </q>

Years ago on the Ed Forum Tosh Plumlee told a tale of a routine abort team mission he helped fly into Dallas early morning 11/22/63. He said he dropped Johnny Roselli off on an earlier stop. The abort team was deployed to Dealey Plaza without the needed intelligence to stop the assassination This is not a widely believed account, but I was willing to give Tosh the time of day on the matter. He said that DCM looked like abort team member "Gator." I suggested Gator was confused by the actions of Umbrella Man and sat down next to him to sort him out. Tosh loved that idea, and thereafter referred to DCM positively as "Gator." So Gator held his fist in the air to hold the abort team at bay? That might explain the radio. That is a more plausible scenario than DCM working for the perps, far fetched as it may be.

That's odd, you agreed with me on other threads about Harriman's responsibility for Vietnam and Golden Triangle interests taking down the Corsican Mafia. I may have been the only poster here who gave you the time of day on your Moynihan-as-Deep Throat riff. I asked for a point of clarification on psych drug experiments under the Harriman Administration in the late 50's. Yes, all that material you posted in response to me must have been a waste of time. Good to know.

A few other people had raised arms. I plead innocence for Umbrella Man. I'm agnostic about DCM. I'm trying to coax out of you a cogent scenario wherein George Joannides stood on the curb or in the street holding his fist in the air. The shooting had already started and a raised fist is a military signal for "hold fire." And then sit down out in the open for several minutes where he could be photographed.

Ah, so you can't address the issue so it's straight to snark. Doing what? He held up his fist after the first shot -- that's a military signal for hold fire. Are you sure "people-raising-their-arms-as-the-President-passes" is where you want to plant your flag?

Matt, what was the Hargraves/Santiago function? Is that how a military style ambush proceeds -- spotters out on the street separate from the shooters?

Why run? Calmly walk away. Because you could be photographed. Why not immediately saunter off and not give anyone time to notice you? The coast was clear. Attention was directed toward the grassy knoll.

How is sitting down on the curb getting away from the scene ASAP?

Okay. So Umbrella Man was Roy Hargraves and Dark Complected Man was Felipe Vidal Santiago (or Gordon Novel and George Joannides). What were they doing there? Signaling? To whom? The shooters? The shooters were watching Hargraves, Santiago and Kennedy at the same time? If they were signaling to a spotter standing next to a shooter -- what could they possibly signal that the spotter couldn't see thru binoculars? So after the murder of a US President two of the conspirators casually took a seat on the curb where they could be photographed. Wouldn't the perps want to get away from the scene of the crime ASAP without drawing attention? As odd as Witt's Chamberlain-umbrella-shaming story seems, the above scenario is pure bonkers. BTW, Umbrella Man and Louis Witt had prominent noses, Hargraves did not.

Cory Santos

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Willis the only witness to describe Umbrella Man's actions in any detail? How is that not relevant to the speculation UM was Kill Team Member Roy Hargraves? So what was Hargraves doing with that umbrella? What function did he serve?

Good chance he lost track of the DP umbrella. So what? So he and Rosemary Willis were in on the plot. Penn Jones, too, since he was the one who tracked down the very shy Mr. Witt.

Not everyone. But then, they let me get away with murder in this joint.

Ron, I think it's a joke that the identity of Umbrella Man is still an issue. Levity? Oh no no no. Certainly not! What movie inspired Frank Sinatra to divorce Mia Farrow? What movie was filmed at the same location as John Lennon's murder? What movie was pedophile Roman Polanski's American debut?

So Willis and Witt were involved in the plot! Willis must have coordinated her HSCA testimony with Witt. Maybe -- just maybe -- the 10 year old Rosemary was the mastermind of the entire ambush. Explains why she was in the DP infield running alongside the limo -- she wanted to watch her handiwork close-up. I mean, if we're gonna indulge implied witness bashing -- may as well go all the way, right?

John Connally's analysis of the Zapruder film in the November 25, 1966 edition of LIFE Magazine -- "A Matter of Reasonable Doubt." Reasonable doubt? That was another Big Lie, of course. Gaeton Fonzi pushed Arlen Specter into a nervous breakdown confronting him with the clothing evidence late June of that year. After that there was no reasonable doubt as to the fact of conspiracy, but the forces of cover-up cleverly responded. That LIFE Magazine edition became the template for the JFKA Critical Community which persists to this day: micro-analyse the hell out of ancillary evidence and ignore the primary evidence of conspiracy.

Rosemary Willis corroborated Witt's account of his actions. Both "in" on the plot?

From the HSCA testimony of Louis Witt: <quote on, emphasis added> Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you saw the motorcade coming into the area? Mr. WITT. Well, as I recall, the motorcade had already made the turn and was coming down Elm Street going west on Elm before I became aware it was there, and it would have been from a straightline position off to my left about like this [indicating] when I saw it . Mr. GENZMAN. What did you do when you saw it approaching you? Mr. WITT. I think I got up and started fiddling with that umbrella trying to get it open, and at the same time I was walking forward, walking toward the street. /q> From the HSCA report -- "Possible Gunman on the Grassy Knoll" <quote on, emphasis added> Rosemary Willis...noticed two persons who looked "conspicuous." One was a man near the curb holding an umbrella, who appeared to be more concerned with opening or closing the umbrella than dropping to the ground like everyone else at the time of the shots. <quote off> Free Louis Witt!

MAGAt hypocrisy in action. Convicted Felon Donald Trump was civilly convicted of rape. He was friends with Jeffrey Epstein for years until Trump's scumbaggery was too much even for Epstein.