Evan Marshall

Once JFK was dead we should have realized RFK had to follow-he was too ruthless and too devoted to his brother to leave it allone. I was serving as a Mormon Missionary in Indiana when it happened-too bad we were so slow to grasp the obvious.

But Mark, if we're in a rented house then it's not our own nest. Please watch those mixed metaphors. I understand there are students present. why worry about CIA when the Illuminati flies over my gunshop every night in a black helicopter?

It all adds up, like circumstantial evidence tends to do in a crime, even if not enough to convict. I think that anyone who still doubts that the CIA was involved, after everything it has pulled in this case (e.g., Hunt's whereabouts on 11/22/63 which even the Rockefeller Commission couldn't find out, Joannides and the DRE and the secret files thereon, Blahut and the HSCA's safe, the sabotage of the Garrison investigation, Morales' credible if drunken talk about having gotten the SOB, CIA lookalikes standing on Dealey Plaza street corners and later in an LA hotel, etc.) - anyone who still doubts has not been paying attention. I happen to think Moralaes, etal, had guilty knowledge-but I've known enough people of similar ilk to be satisfied that while they may have been looking at their watches, none of them where rash enough to be standing anywhere near the shooting scene checking the time or events. JFK's murder was only part of the overall plan-there was still RFK. two guys who I know who were involved in the decision to kill Che', were on a seperate continent when it was done.

I tend to agree. So too Lansdale. Seems to me, then, that Morales and Lansdale would have told Rip Robertson to keep his butt out of Dallas. Regarding Ron Ecker's comments; so one would think;......Maybe it is not a sexy post on my part but I cannot describe how nicely the 1977 CBS Documentary - The CIA's Secret Army,* dovetails some of the information posted pertaining to this thread.........FWIW * hosted by Bill Moyers; I understand the program was rebroadcast in February 1981 on his PBS program, "Bill Moyers Journal." none of this is convincing nor compelling evidence

I shoot alot of ballistic gelatin and without knowing the %, how it was prepared&stored, whether or not its been properly calibrated, it tells me absolutely nothing. AND I don't believe the SBT So are you saying that he purposely deceived us ? I'm a retired Homicide Cop-If I thought he intentionally deceived us I wouldn't have been shy about saying so-I'm saying without more info gelatin tests mean nothing

Myra...this is all speculation that I first heard about 40 years ago. I think it is little more than theory, though parts may have basis in fact. To me, Tippit's role remains a mystery. Jack I doubt the Dallas cops would shed many tears over the pro civil rights Kennedy, but the murder of another officer could provide enough motivation to ensure Oswald did not survive his arrest attempt. I joined Detroit PD in 1969 and it was still uncommon for cop killers to make it to jail.

I shoot alot of ballistic gelatin and without knowing the %, how it was prepared&stored, whether or not its been properly calibrated, it tells me absolutely nothing. AND I don't believe the SBT www.stoppingpower.net

I couldn't find any article on google news that mentioned Harrelson's likely role in President Kennedy's assassination. That is an interesting observation you make Pat. President Kennedy's birthday coming up on May 29. Two big books, David Talbot's "Brothers" and Bugliosi's "I'm a CIA Whore," coming out in May as a result. Two almost certain conspirators/murderers dying shortly before. Granted they were old. But it's always good to note context in JFK research. since everyone in prison has been wrongly convicted of a crime they didn't committ I'm sure some one will ad this to the "suspicious death" catagory

some eye witnesses are very unreliable and I found along time ago that you want to seperate them before they can pollute each other recollections. the reccollections of professionals like the Emergency Room Dr's at Parkland I have great confidence in. So I guess I have a simple question too. How many times do people see the President of the United States murdered in front of them? Additionally, I learned at Homicide you need to ask very specific, very narrow questions. Every witness has a speck of gold on them and with the right questions, it might turn into the mother lode.

I dont believe he was lying, or trying to manufacture more into his story, than what it was, and what he saw. Im sure if you take just about anybodys testimonies who were witnesses [or where involved in anyway with the assassination] and look at them over the years, Im sure you will find some differences, and slight changes in their stories that I would think would happen to just about anybodies testimony. You hear it every day here on the Forum. [people claiming how people changed their stories over the years, and did so mostly for the glory of making themselves seem more important than they really were]. I truly dont beleive this was the case with Roger Craig. Michael, In Craig's case, the changes were more than just slight. The Rambler: Craig, WC testimony: Mr. BELIN - Did it have a Texas license plate, or not? Mr. CRAIG - It had the same color. I couldn't see the--uh--name with the numbers on it. I could just barely make them out. They were at an angle where I couldn't make the numbers of the--uh--any of the writing on it. But---uh---I'm sure it was a Texas plate. Craig, Shaw trial testimony: Q: Can you describe the station wagon in any great detail? A: It was a light green Rambler station wagon with the luggage rack on the back portion and it had out-of-state plates on it and the reason I know this is they were not the same color as ours and I couldn't read them because of the angle of the car and the traffic movement. The Rifle: Craig, WC testimony: Mr. CRAIG - Well, there was just--uh--of course, everybody stayed there, you know, and sort of mingled around and--uh--I then went back downstairs after the weapon was picked up. The identification man from the city of Dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon up and handed it to Will Fritz. And I then went back downstairs and over to the sheriffs office. Craig, Shaw trial testimony: Q: While you were on the sixth floor and in your presence was any rifle found? A: Yes. Q: And did you personally find the rifle? A: No, sir, I did not but I was about eight feet from the gentleman that found it. Q: Did you ever get closer to the gentleman holding the rifle? A: Yes, sir, I did. Q: Approximately how far? A: About one foot or one and a half foot. I was standing next to him. Q: Do you recall the man who was there? A: No, he was an ID man from the Dallas Police Department, however, he did not find the rifle, Eugene Boone, a Deputy Sheriff, he found the rifle. Q: What do you mean an ID man? A: An identification man from the Dallas Police Department. Q: Approximately how long did you view the rifle at this time? A: Just two or three minutes. They took it away immediately, they held lit up by the strap and then took it away from there. Early reports said the rifle recovered on the 6th floor of the Depository was a Mauser, a British .303, and “foreign make”. Craig’s interview with the Los Angeles Free Press in March 1968 ."PJ" is Penn Jones. FP: Did you handle that rifle? RC: Yes, I did. I couldn't give its name because I don't know foreign rifles, I know it was foreign made, and you loaded it downward into a built-in clip. The ID man took it and ejected one live round from it. The scope was facing north, the bolt facing upwards and the trigger south. But there was another rifle, a Mauser, found up on the roof of the depository that afternoon. FP: A Mauser on the roof? Who found it? PJ: I don't know who found it, but I do know that a police officer verified its existence. In later years, however, Craig's account changed and he adopted the version that has the Mauser found on the 6th floor. In his manuscript, Craig says "Lt. Day inspected the rifle briefly, then handed it to Capt. Fritz who had a puzzled look on his face. Seymour Weitzman, a deputy constable, was standing beside me at the time. Weitzman was an expert on weapons. He had been in the sporting goods business for many years and was familiar with all domestic and foreign weapons. Capt. Fritz asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it was. Weitzman asked to see it. After a close examination (much longer than Fritz or Day's examination) Weitzman declared that it was a 7.65 German Mauser. Fritz agreed with him. Apparently, someone at the Dallas Police Department also loses things but, at least, they are more conscientious. The Mauser on the roof, which Craig didn't claim to have seen, had become the Mauser on the 6th floor. A few years later, when he was interviewed for "Two Men in Dallas," Craig claimed to have viewed the rifle close-up and saw the notation "7.65 Mauser." The Rambler plates were Texas plates(or same color as Texas plates), then they weren't. He didn't handle the rifle, then he did. There are many instances of complete opposite statements, not slight changes. The only reason I would tend to believe the Rambler story is because it was corroborated by other witnesses. Another BTW, the Jack Beers photo of Craig in the Homicide office was taken on Saturday the 23rd, not Friday the 22nd. RJS Very nice work Rich! Im impressed. Ive never heard those testimonies before. There was so much confusion those first few days, and if you have ever given a deposition, or have been ordered to tetify in a case such as this one, [ I have] there is alot of pressure. Im sure he made some mistakes, and you can find many in alot of peoples testimonies, [Helen Markham for example], but all in all, I do beleive he did the best he could under the circumstances. I think the point im making here is that he really didnt sway from his basic story of what happened. Many other officers , Im sure were ordered to change their stories or to keep their moths shut, and Roger didnt. Im not going to make excuses for Roger, or continue trying to defend him, but I truly beleive he stayed with his basic story and did his job [wasnt his fault Lummie lost maybe a very important witness that day- or maybe Lummie was told to lose her! who knows??] I dont think someone would have endured what he and his family did, all those years, if he wasnt just being an honest Deputy doing what he thought was right. Alot of people would have kept their mouths shut after being threatened, or shot at the first time. He never did. He endured all of the harrassment, ridicule, lose of county job, eventually his wife, and many jobs. But he still maintained his basic story of what happened that day. If it wasnt for Penn Jones helping the Craigs out over the years, who knows what may have happened. Thats all. I dont want to keep going back and forth on this subject. You did a good job making your point and I applaud you for that. That s what is nice about this Forum, we can discuss things in a gentlemanly way, and make our points and move on. Not argue and continue to drag things out into shouting matches as some seem to do here. Just may opinion FWIW. thanks-smitty while I certainly want to believe Roger Craig there are some serious discrepancies in his various versions of the truth-as someone who was assigned to Detroit Homicde twice during a 20yr career I would have to talk to him and get an explanation for the "drift" in his account. Sadly, that's not possible. I saw cops go being stars to bums over and over again and mostly it was their fault.

Well, I suspect I seen more people shot 1st hand than most of the people here and went to several hundred autopsies and a 1,000+ homicide scenes and have been involved in fatal shootings. I agree that my BA in History and MA in Criminal Justice don't make much of a Physicist, but time after time I've seen people shot whose reaction was immediate and extremely violent. so you obviously didn't go to ifilm.com and watch the violent reaction-far beyond the recoil of the same rnd at the shoulder-two tours in Detroit Homicide and assignments in the Crime Lab, CSI, Tac Unit, dept sniper, and SWAT taught me that the more I see the less I'm sure of. I've personally been involved in deadly force events where handguns impacts were not seen nor a reaction noted. Conversley, I've been involved in other incidents where the weapon deployed was a .308 or .300 Win Mag sniper rifle or a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs and the reaction was immediate and pronounced just like on the ifilm videos. my dad spent most of his professional life at Stanford University involved in high energy physics research and his response to a life time of research-was, "Maybe we're finally starting to learn something-maybe". again I think we have alot more to focus on-like who really shot JFK and who could control the evidence and coverup the conspirarcy.

Charlie-relax-take your socks off&massage your feet-I'm talking about personally being present when people where shot with high powered rifles-in one case I was the backup sniper and had the guy in my scope when he was hit. I don't believe the Z film either, but there's a big difference between those who have accepted their imminent death and those who are bent on murder. As a rookie cop I responded to the shooting of a police sgt-we grabbed him and rushed him to the emergency room-the cops on the scene shot the bad guy 13 times including once between the eyes-he survived. do a search for police sniper shooting video on the web-if I can find the NM Bank shooting I'll email it-the guys had a toupee and phony mustache on-his head goes one way violently and the toupee goes violently in the opposite direction. animals are not people and they only know they don't feel good. I had a partner in the Tac Unit who had been hit 3 times with a .50 machine gun n Vietnam and survived. another partner was hit in the head with .45ACP and fortunately the round rode around the outside of his skull and exited. we just have to focus on what happened-what really happened-and remember you and I are both looking for the people who really killed JFK. have a great day and keep up the good work. FYI, go to iflim.com and search under sniper shootings you'll see several violent reactions of real people being shot-watch the "sniper eye view" video and the one where a soldier survives a sniper hit. also ifilms,com, watch "Juba shoots a Marine" if you think head shots with rifles don't cause a violent reaction.

Charlie-relax-take your socks off&massage your feet-I'm talking about personally being present when people where shot with high powered rifles-in one case I was the backup sniper and had the guy in my scope when he was hit. I don't believe the Z film either, but there's a big difference between those who have accepted their imminent death and those who are bent on murder. As a rookie cop I responded to the shooting of a police sgt-we grabbed him and rushed him to the emergency room-the cops on the scene shot the bad guy 13 times including once between the eyes-he survived. do a search for police sniper shooting video on the web-if I can find the NM Bank shooting I'll email it-the guys had a toupee and phony mustache on-his head goes one way violently and the toupee goes violently in the opposite direction. animals are not people and they only know they don't feel good. I had a partner in the Tac Unit who had been hit 3 times with a .50 machine gun n Vietnam and survived. another partner was hit in the head with .45ACP and fortunately the round rode around the outside of his skull and exited. we just have to focus on what happened-what really happened-and remember you and I are both looking for the people who really killed JFK. have a great day and keep up the good work. FYI, go to iflim.com and search under sniper shootings you'll see several violent reactions of real people being shot-watch the "sniper eye view" video and the one where a soldier survives a sniper hit.

already mentioned that I've seen people hit in the head with high powered rifles AND you can do internet searches on police sniper shootingd-the Albuquerque Bank Hostage Taker is a classic example.

Did he ever get his kids straightened out about where he was on 11/22/63? He testified that he had trouble convincing them that he wasn't in Dallas, when he had testified earlier that the kids were with him that day. I imagine this only confused the kids more than ever. ego is a fascinating human fraility and I would suggest that it often drives people to admit things they would have denied in saner moments. Friends of mine who were contemporaries of Hunt at CIA have little good to say about him and one argues that Hunt was told disinformation because he often could not keep his mouth shut. One said that he had no idea who killed Kennedy and admitted there were some folks inside the organization who were capable and probably willing to kill JFK, BUT Hunt would screw up a one car funeral on a one way street.

I guess we saw different atrocitie films-the one I remembered where pistols and submachine guns still military is not the same as jhp ammo so you think JFK was shot with a bazooka or perhaps the film has been fiddled with? I think the film is suspect simply because we have a lousy chain of custody

Charlie-I guess we'll have to agree to disagree-I've seen two hostage takers hit in the head with Federal .308 Match jhp and a number of people shot with M16's and the reaction was immediate and dramatic-people fell into the ditch because of gravity-handguns are very weak animals and the difference between handgun impacts and rifle impacts are world apart. frankly, I think it was an AR15/M16 that fired the fatal head shot and it was from in front. Melons are not attached to a spinal cord and do not reflect the reiststace of the human skull. Even ballistic gelatin has its limitations and I shot close to a 1,000lbs a yr of the stuff. People keep ignoring the fact that Oswald was a Marine when the Corp focused on everybody being a rifleman-he may have been less than a expert shot but he knew what quality, accurate rifles were-I cannot believe that a man focused on murdering the President would balk at stealing a quality rifle. none of the goats were shot with rifles-I've seen people virtually decapitated by a high powered rifle hit in the head.

Accessories by Meagher and Whitewash by Harold Weisberg are absolutely foundational works. Each is a must-have and a must-study. "Oswald In New Orleans"

Chris, Newton's 3rd law of motion does not apply to John Kennedy, he was special! You are right, his first shot should have been the most accurate. The "magic bullet" , crazy little devil , wasn't it. I dont know anything about guns and sights , so no comment on that one. The cover story is a sham. Impossible to believe. Amazing that it is still defended. I am insulted when it is. it was believed because we believed in Govt-I actually thought Bobby was the only Kennedy brother ruthless enough to be a good President.

While I agree that people react differently than the movies or TV would indicate I've personally witnessed people struck by high powered rifle rounds and the reaction is immediate and significant. I subdued a man who died later in the lockup-he had been shot 6 times by another officer with a .38 Special revolver-I never saw any blood and he never complained of being shot. I've personally been present when people had an even greater reaction than JFK and seen countless video's of police sniper shooting where the reaction to being hit by a rifle bullet was severe. I sat on the 1st FBI Wound Ballistics Panel and have written three best sellling books on ballistics and remain convinced that we still don't know very much and I've grown exceedingly weary of self-anointed experts over the yrs-I'm not an expert, just a retired Detroit Sgt who worked both Homicide and SWAT.

The manufacturer's website says that Glaser Safety Slugs have been in use "For over 30 years." Do you know if this slug, or something comparable, was actually available in 1963? http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/glaser.htm Jack Cannon, US Army Intelligence-China-and a guy with an interesting back ground played with the load for awhile prior to its introduction on the market. current mfg is an old friend of mine, original loads were developed in Germany. Cannon was a contempary of and knew Mitch Werbell and George Nonte.

one thing that two tours in Detroit Homicide taught me, is not to overthink or overcomplicate the issue-the conspirators controlled the autopsy and "investigation" there was no need for Sabots or other overly complex methodology. As the original training sgt for the swat team in Detroit I visited Dealy Plaza while in Dallas for a police training conference-the BD was the last place any sane person would choose and especially not the 6th floor as escape routes and time to flee would be limited. the showers of fragments thru the head looks like xrays I've seen of Glaser Safety Slugs.

Yes that is a great Moorman image Jack, its the Thompson drum scan you usually call trash. Did you get some new glasses? I have to credit Lamson this one time IF that is indeed the famed drum scan, because the quality is very good for a copy of the original print which has the fingerprint. At first glance it appeared to be the Gordon Smith copy, which is one of the best that I have, made from the original. As far as I know I have never seen the FULL UNCROPPED drum scan before. This image, like the Smith image, includes the notches of the 4x5 film holder on the edges. I did not know the drum scan had that feature. Previously I had only seen cropped images from the drum scan, and perhaps inferior copies at that. The image posted by Robin is superior to the Smith copy by about 10 percent in the Dmin/Dmax densitometer range. I compared the two side by side full screen. The drum scan density is about 10 percent better; this is mainly seen in the very dark areas such as the wooden fence, the badgeman tree, etc which are enough lighter on the drum scan to discern detail, but are more blocked up on the Smith copy. However, neither the drum scan nor the Smith copy, both made from the faded original with the fingerprint, can match the high quality of the Thompson Number One print as I have shown many times. The drumscan exposure was very likely made using an electronic densitometer, which takes a reading of the lightest area and darkest area and calculates a precise exposure for minimum and maximum density. When I formerly owned three photostat cameras, that is how my camera operators turned out high quality halftones...by using the densitometer to set the camera exposure. Jack I may not agree with Jack White on much, but such infantile and assinine remarks prove and solve nothing-as long as our ego's blind our common goals we'll never accomplish a solution to this murder

Since Posner has argued that original recollections are best, he has a bit of a problem doesn't he? I think the Z film is flawed simply because we have a faulty chain of evidence and no real reliable record was where its been

it's been my experience that each country has its share of Turds. As far as the Lone Gunman crowd I believe anger and ridicule never perseuded anyone-do I think there was a conspirarcy-actually I think its obvious, but I prefer a more reasoned approach-My Grandma used to advise me never to argue with a fool because after the 1st 45 seconds, people will not be able to tell you apart. When I was assigned to Detroit Homicide I began to realize that 99.99% of the population fail to grasp that there are Monsters roaming the earth in human form and they routinely commit unspeakable and unimaginable horrors-perhaps there are people who cannot deal with Govt behavior thats outside their comfort zone and the SBT and LGM are the result.