Evan Marshall

And from Paul O'Connor in the same book: O’Connor: When we started an autopsy, the first thing we always did…was to weigh and measure the body. We’d check for any scars, contusions, any abnormalities, and so on. But in this case, we didn’t turn the body over to look at the back while we were doing that. Finally we turned the body over, and there was a bullet wound—an entrance wound—in his back, on the right side of his spinal column. To emphasize where it was in proximity to the rest of his body: if you bend your neck down and feel back, you feel a lump and that’s the seventh cervical vertebra. This bullet wound was about 3 inches down and an inch or two to the right of the seventh cervical vertebra. I remember there was a big gush of surprise that nobody actually thought about turning him over right away, you know after we had done our initial investigation of the president’s body. Dr Humes took his finger and poked it in the hole---the bullet wound hole, the entrance wound hole---and said it didn’t go anywhere. There was a very big argument, a lot of consternation, that he shouldn’t have stuck his finger in the hole. Law: What difference would it make? O’Connor: Well, when you take your finger and stick it into a bullet wound, you avulse the wound. Law: You think that happened when he stuck his finger in the back? O’Connor: Yes Law: It could have create a false track: O’Connor: Well, not necessarily a false track as much as a false impression of the entrance of the missile that went into his back. Law: Who was arguing” O’Connor: Dr Finck strongly objected to Commander Humes doing what he did. He(Finck) took a sound, which is a probe, a metal malleable, non rigid probe. We started out with a rigid probe and found that it only went in so far. I’d say maybe an inch and a quarter. It didn’t go in any further than that. So we used a malleable probe and bent it a little bit and found that the bullet entered the body, went through the intercostals muscles---the muscles between the ribs. The bullet went in through the muscles, didn’t touch any of the ribs, arched downwards, hit the back of the pleural cavity and stopped. So we didn’t know the track of the bullet until we eviscerated the body later. That’s what happened at the time. We traced the bullet path down and found that it didn’t traverse the body. It did not go in one side and come out the other side of the body. Law: You can be reasonably sure of that? O’Connor: Absolutely Law: And these doctors knew that? O’Connor: Absolutely Law: While it happened? O’Connor: Absolutely. And another thing we found out while the autopsy was proceeding, that he was shot from a high building, which meant the bullet had to be traveling in a downward trajectory and we also realized that this bullet is what we call in the military a “short shot”. It didn’t have the power to push the projectile clear through the body. If it had…it would have come out through his heart and through his sternum. O’Connor: We were told(in the report of the Warren Commission) that he was shot in the back and it came out his throat. That didn’t jibe with what we saw, and when I say we, I’m talking about Dr. Boswell and myself. When shown the photo of the back by Law: O’Connor: That’s a very accurate portrayal of the entrance wound to his back, which as you know, is quite a ways down from his neck. At the angle he was shot…the laws of physics will not let a bullet strike there and go up and go out his throat…I helped roll him over…one of these arms might have been mine, because I was at the head of the body and helped roll him over. It wasn’t rolled over until quite a ways into the autopsy, and that’s when they discovered the bullet wound. O’Connor: Now I had this drawing made at the University of Florida showing the back wound and this is exactly what happened. The bullet struck him in the back, it passed through the outer layer of muscle and through the inner layer of muscle between the vertebrae. These are intercostals muscles and they connect the spinal column together. This bullet came in, arched downward, and bulged against the pleural cavity, which is the protective cavity around both lungs. It did not penetrate that lung area. It just bruised it real badly. I had it highlighted showing there was bruising on the right lung. The back if the right lung was bruised, but wasn’t torn. It was bruised badly enough to hemorrhage in the tissues, but not enough to tear the lung or the cavity. I find it hard to believe that anyone these days, with the amount of information out there, would STILL believe in the SBT. RJS Richard; An excellent article, and far closer to the facts and truths than most will ever realize. I find it hard to believe that anyone these days, with the amount of information out there, would STILL believe in the SBT. In this regards, who would win the " Most Ignorant Prize"? A. Those who fully accept the WC shooting and injury sustain scenario? B. Those who believe the "Multiple Assassin" scenario? C. Those who believe the "Body Kidnapping/Wound Alteration" scenario? As regards the statements which you have attributed to Paul O'Connor: 1. As most should be aware by now, he is absolutely correct in his statements regarding the lateness in the autopsy as to when the back/shoulder wound was found. Preliminary examinations were complete, as were the X-rays, and the examination of the head injury was also virtually complete when this ENTRY wound was first located. Additionally, the fact that there was no exit path for the bullet, convinced ALL of those present at the time, that the bullet which struck, had penetrated only an extremely short distance and stopped.* And, this was the FINAL conclusion when the autopsy ended and the body of JFK was removed for burial preparation. *Although initial examination (the finger into the wound) had given this indication, the final conclusion and acceptance of this was not accepted until after the chest cavity had been opened. When no bullet could be found, yet the ending pathway of the bullet could be observed in the parietal pluera damage as well as the apex of the right lung, this was accepted as the facts. This was also borne out by the fact that the metal rod/probe was inserted down into the entry wound and when one viewed the internal (emptied) chest cavity, the tip of this probe could be observed pushing against the parietal pluera in the identified area of bruising. At the time that the autopsy ended, the following conclusions were reached: A. A bullet struck JFK in the upper back/lower neck, and penetrated only a short distance, ultimately, to have apparantly fallen out of the body at Parkland Hospital and thereafter to be found. B. A bullet struck JFK at the edge of the hairline, and through some unknown means, deflected upwards to strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP, and thereafter exit in the frontal lobe of the brain. C. A tracheotomy in the anterior neck, at approximately the third tracheal ring had been performed at Parkland Hospital in attempt to save the life of JFK. Now! As far as the bullet pathway having been between the ribs????????????? Dr. Humes clearly placed the entrance wound as being slightly above the scapular, and although not exactly stated, he thereafter referenced the wound as being 14cm from the tip of the acromion process of the scapula. Which, (in error or not) would lead one to believe that Dr. Humes referenced the wound as being slightly above the highest point of the scapula, that being the spine of the scapula on which the acromonion process is located. Secondly, Dr. Humes clearly places the bruising of the right lung as being "supra-clavicular" and as being in the "extreme apical portion" of the right upper lobe of the lung. All of which would require the bullet pathway to have been above the first thoracic vertebrae/first rib. *It is specifically noted that these notes, as written by Dr. Humes, are in fact the "second generation" notes. Any "First Generation" notes which would have been taken at the autopsy, would have had the upper back/lower neck entrance having only gone in the short distance and thereafter stopped, just as they would have had reference to only a tracheotomy incision of the anterior neck, as this was in fact the conclusion when the autopsy ended. Therefore, Dr. Humes "excuse" as to why he burned the original notes, appears to have been as much a result of the later decision (by all three autopsy surgeons) that they had been in error, which was only decided the next day after Dr. Humes had spoken with Dr. Perry in Dallas and found that the anterior neck tracheotomy also contained a wound. Nevertheless, ALL information tends to support that the entrance wound was in the vicinity of the C7/T1 vertebrae, which was reinforced considerably when the Clark Panel first told us of the minor damage to the right transverse process of either the C7 or T1 vertebrae, as well as the probability of minute metallic fragments located in the neck of JFK adjacent to this damage to the bone. In that regards, there are additional extenuating factors which it would appear have not been taken fully into consideration in an attempt to finally place this into perspective. 1. The upper back/lower neck entrance wound was fully excised, down to the base/bottom of the wound. Slides were made of this, and although not examined until later, these slides demonstrated the nature of the wound, as well as the critical element of information that considerable fabric from the coat and shirt of JFK had been carried down into the wound by the penetrating bullet/projectile. Had the ending point of this wound actually been deep enough that it penetrated between the posterior space between ribs, one would have hoped that Dr. Humes/Boswell/& or Finck would have seen such and brought this into consideration when determining the entrance location for the projectile. 2. Dr. Humes clearly identified the entrance angle into the back of JFK as having been on a downward angle of between 45 degrees to 60 degrees downward. An entry of anywhere near this angle, working backwards from the bruising to the supra-clavicular/extreme apical bruising of the lung, absolutely could not place the entrance wound down among the thoracic vertebrae. 3. Lastly, without a full re-examination of the skeletal structure of JFK, this can never be resolved. Everyone tends to assume that we are all built the same. Not so!. Although rare, there are those who possess an 8th cervical vertebral bone, which of course is lower than would be a C7. And although this condition is considered rare, it can not be totally eliminated from consideration. Likewise, and even more common, is what is known as a "Cervical Rib" which in fact extends from the C7 vertebrae. Therefore, with the chest opened and the lungs removed, a probe pushing through from the back side could, when viewed from the interior chest cavity, appear to be pushing between two ribs, yet actually be pushing between a C7 cervical rib and the T1 first true rib. Who Knows??? What we have are the known and presented measurements as given by Dr. Humes, as well as their later revelations, along with the now known damage to what appears as either a C7/T1 vertebrae, coupled with the damage to the anterior throat which was located at approximately the third tracheal ring. let's remember after decades of denials, Humes finally admitted destroying critical evidence-I don't think he was incompetant just morally corrupt.

And that's it? - lee why would anybody run anywhere in public with a rifle? Even if they has creds, an excited officer could have shot them before they had the opportunity to display them. In two tours in Homicide, the skull was always cut by the medical examiner-the mortician in Dallas would have no need or probably even authority to perform such a procedure. this guy appears to be a publicity hound of the 1st order

I can attest to the truth of this statement from Mr. Grey, since he accuses me of being a CIA disinformation asset on the very Diem thread he cites in his most recent post. I am glad John Simkin has opened up this topic. As Clemenza said in The Godfather, it's good to shed a little blood now and then, it clears the air. It also raises the question: Are Ashton Grey's thought processes truly rational? If Mr. Grey's reasoning that I am a CIA asset was rational, and if he respected the rationality of his readers, he would have provided something in the way of evidence to support his accusation. So far Mr. Grey has not provided even a scintilla, beyond the fact that I made him angry when I pointed out that he was defending E. Howard Hunt against the well-proven charges that Hunt was guilty of Forgery and Uttering a Forged Document in an attempt to posthumously assassinate the character and reputation of JFK. It is still not clear whether Hunt was acting on his own or on someone else's behalf, or both. So the humour of it all is that Mr. Grey accuses me of being a CIA asset in the same breath that he defends Howard Hunt. Go figure. no wonder the National Debt is so high-we're all on the Agency's payroll-my checks late-again

Some might count you among them, Jack. I wish you wouldn't be so coy, Jack, and would just come out and say who you think such disinformation agents are. I've made no bones about my own opinion on that count. And speaking of "count," I have no idea whether you are counting me in that august number, but I am going to point out for the record here—again—that I have made a matter of record the rather extraordinary database of over 10,000 records that I've had the good fortune to have had made available to me. And I've made absolutely no secret of the fact that quite a few people have contributed over the course of many years bringing the thing into existence, some of whom continue to update and add to it constantly. Not only have I made a record of this primary research tool that I use, I've actually posted a copy of the exact same database engine itself populated with a few JFK-related records, and urged, begged, pleaded with people to use it to timeline the JFK assassination data, in the topic I started: JFK Timeline Database and Hopeful Thoughts. I've just used that very database (the full version, not the limited JFK-related version I posted) to extract the West Virginia-Pat Price-CIA-NSA timeline that I just posted in response to Myra. It took me all of ten minutes, maybe, to search on "Pat Price" and "West Virginia," sort the found records by date, export the found records as a tab-delimited text file, and format it for posting with a few words of introduction. Such is the power of the thing, which I've tried desperately to get others to understand, and to use the damn thing, which has been freely supplied in the topic linked to above with no strings for anyone who wants to pursue it and use it any way they see fit. So far, the only person who has demonstrated any real interest is Bill Kelly, who, to his eternal credit, is trying to get the many random timelines all compiled and into such a useful form. I even was in touch briefly with the Mary Farrell Foundation, and offered to do anything I could to get her chronologies converted for import to that engine. I supplied all the technical information that could make it possible—and then that contact went dead as a hammer. Don't ask me why. So my own "research methods" are about as secret as Toys'R'Us locations. And since I have spent much of my life developing a career in which I'm my own boss and make my own schedule, I'll invest as much of my time as I choose in any pursuit I choose, without apology or requests for permission (and also stir the soup on my way through the kitchen). Ashton Gray At risk of sounding paranoid, it would be assumed that I too have a "reserved seat" in the Dis-information/CIA Boat". If so, then it would appear that this would leave only one seat left available. Bill Miller, come on down! By the way Jack, although I can not speak for others, my homework and research was done long, long ago. Therefore, I do not have to have anyone "feeding" me the information as we go along. Had you ever taken the time and effort to either read and understand the WC Report, or at least have someone explain it to you, then perhaps you too would have known were to look for many of the answers to the JFK assassination, back in the 1990 time frame or so. The Internet, coupled with the computer & scanner, along with virtually the entire WC on line, merely makes it quite simple to locate and provide the information of which some 13 to 15 years ago I made many, many copies of and thereafter tabulated in various folders. It's called "Research" Jack. Perhaps you should try it some day and hopefully suprise yourself as regards what one can actually learn if they try. I think that we need to remember that even the most agenda driven individual can stumble over the truth. I found at Homicide that almost every witness had a speck of gold on them somewhere and sometimes it led to the mother lode. I haven't been able to decipher Garrison to my own satisfaction, but he did find some interesting things-I once had a jury convict the right guy of Murder 2 for all the wrong reasons. We have much more in common than we do in disagreement-if everyone involved in genuinely looking for the truth-I have much more in common with an individual who sincerely believes Oswald did it alone than I do with the individual who see's well known Agency folks with rifles all over the Plaza. I personally believe elements of the Agency were involved, but no one who could have been traced back to the Agency would have been there and possibly arrested through bad, dumb luck.

Some might count you among them, Jack. I wish you wouldn't be so coy, Jack, and would just come out and say who you think such disinformation agents are. I've made no bones about my own opinion on that count. And speaking of "count," I have no idea whether you are counting me in that august number, but I am going to point out for the record here—again—that I have made a matter of record the rather extraordinary database of over 10,000 records that I've had the good fortune to have had made available to me. And I've made absolutely no secret of the fact that quite a few people have contributed over the course of many years bringing the thing into existence, some of whom continue to update and add to it constantly. Not only have I made a record of this primary research tool that I use, I've actually posted a copy of the exact same database engine itself populated with a few JFK-related records, and urged, begged, pleaded with people to use it to timeline the JFK assassination data, in the topic I started: JFK Timeline Database and Hopeful Thoughts. I've just used that very database (the full version, not the limited JFK-related version I posted) to extract the West Virginia-Pat Price-CIA-NSA timeline that I just posted in response to Myra. It took me all of ten minutes, maybe, to search on "Pat Price" and "West Virginia," sort the found records by date, export the found records as a tab-delimited text file, and format it for posting with a few words of introduction. Such is the power of the thing, which I've tried desperately to get others to understand, and to use the damn thing, which has been freely supplied in the topic linked to above with no strings for anyone who wants to pursue it and use it any way they see fit. So far, the only person who has demonstrated any real interest is Bill Kelly, who, to his eternal credit, is trying to get the many random timelines all compiled and into such a useful form. I even was in touch briefly with the Mary Farrell Foundation, and offered to do anything I could to get her chronologies converted for import to that engine. I supplied all the technical information that could make it possible—and then that contact went dead as a hammer. Don't ask me why. So my own "research methods" are about as secret as Toys'R'Us locations. And since I have spent much of my life developing a career in which I'm my own boss and make my own schedule, I'll invest as much of my time as I choose in any pursuit I choose, without apology or requests for permission (and also stir the soup on my way through the kitchen). Ashton Gray At risk of sounding paranoid, it would be assumed that I too have a "reserved seat" in the Dis-information/CIA Boat". If so, then it would appear that this would leave only one seat left available. Bill Miller, come on down! By the way Jack, although I can not speak for others, my homework and research was done long, long ago. Therefore, I do not have to have anyone "feeding" me the information as we go along. Had you ever taken the time and effort to either read and understand the WC Report, or at least have someone explain it to you, then perhaps you too would have known were to look for many of the answers to the JFK assassination, back in the 1990 time frame or so. The Internet, coupled with the computer & scanner, along with virtually the entire WC on line, merely makes it quite simple to locate and provide the information of which some 13 to 15 years ago I made many, many copies of and thereafter tabulated in various folders. It's called "Research" Jack. Perhaps you should try it some day and hopefully suprise yourself as regards what one can actually learn if they try. I think that we need to remember that even the most agenda driven individual can stumble over the truth. I found at Homicide that almost every witness had a speck of gold on them somewhere and sometimes it led to the mother lode. I haven't been able to decipher Garrison to my own satisfaction, but he had find some interesting things-I once had a jury convict the right guy of Murder 2 for all the wrong reasons. We have much more in common than we do in disagreement-if everyone involved in genuinely looking for the truth-I have much more in common with an individual who sincerely believes Oswald did it alone than I do with the individual who see's well known Agency folks with rifles all over the Plaza. I personally believe elements of the Agency were involved, but no one who could have been traced back to the Agency would have been there and possibly arrested through bad, dumb luck.

they may not kill them any more but they don't kill them any less either

************************************************************** Don't worry, John. I think any of us who've been independent thinkers over the years have been accused, at one point or another, of possibly being assets, if not agents, ourselves. Have you gotten our pictures, yet? You can post them if you'd like, and let the members view some of your American contingency in the U.S. Terry [posting from Dawn's rig, again] Have a few friends who are retired Agency - you should be flattered - they're some of the best people I know-people like Phillips, Morales, et al - are in the distinct minority. Besides, I have it on good authority that you're actually a Taliban Recruiter.

- TSBD - multiple shooters, including decoy shooter. Mac Wallace as potential shooter. Fingerprint analysis, Loy Factor account, etc. Oswald as piss-poorly set-up Patsy. What went wrong? - DalTex - 2nd floor window, possibly Nestor Izquierdo as spotter. Shooter as a white male - Saul Sague? As per MacDonald, spotter as per Gerry Hemming. Broom closet rented as storage possibly by Jennifer Juniors. - Top of Underpass - Cuban, at storm drain. Used sewers as escape route. 16" diameter pipes replaced originals during construction some point after 1963. - Behind picketfence, near corner, maybe a Corsican - possible Paul Mondolini. Seen by Ed Hoffman, possible by Lee Bowers as well. Could also have been Military sniper. Delivered fatal headshot. - On stairs at Elm, under Texas Live Oak, Cuban - Possible patsy. Maybe Luis Posada. North Peristyle, unclear. No south knoll shooter. No 'flachette' from umbrellas, pens or cigars. No James Files - at least, not as a shooter. No shot through windshield to throat. Minimum 2 shots to Kennedy's head, if not three. Evan - can you expand? This is very intriguing. What exactly would have compelled the cover-up? - lee simple their patrotism was appealed too and they were decent Americans who thought they were helping their govt. knew a Brit who thought he was helping British Intelligence and did some questionable things for the Aparthaid SA govt. unfortunatelty, such behavior by intelligence agencies of all govts is not unknown-a Bud had 1st hand experience with how ruthless British Intellignece was during WW II.

Anthony, You've got to be joking. So when Ruby killed Oswald, was he acting on behalf of the KGB? FWIW, I think the shooting teams were shipped in from Europe, probably France--freelance mercenaries, the best of the best, their contracts brokered by Mossad and underwritten by wealthy domestic parties---Texas oilmen spring to mind, and maybe a media baron or two. The Joint Chiefs gave the plan their approval and best wishes and they 'helped out' with the autopsy. The photographic record of DP incriminates Rip Robertson and some of the Interpen guys but, eternal skeptic that I am, I suspect none of them were members of the shooting teams. Of course it's nearly certain that they knew something was afoot, which would make them accessaries. I speculate that the real experts were whisked in a few days before the hit and disappeared from the scene (and the photographic record) almost instantly. When it comes to suspicious individuals, it seems that almost every man and his dog was in Dealey Plaza that day. A useful ploy for blurring the picture and spreading confusion. If any of the assassins were photographed, they were just 'faded' from view. The whole show was a magic trick, after all. Kruschev alledeglly commented that the US and USSR ought to combine their intelligence agencies since they were both paying the same people anyway.

Antii-they would not have known who hired them and certainly not their real names. there would have been no way to connect them to the sponsor and zealots are often great patsies but poor triggermen. worked with a guy while a contract trainer for the Feds-he was retired Agency and while not involved in JMWave he said there were alot of people who honestly thought they were working for the agency who in fact worked for the Mob in Miami. again, I thik the why will id the who-worked two Mafia hits and while we never id'd the trigger men we were able to id the sponsor's though no one would testify against them. I worry that the folks who did this keep sending us off to chase our own tails. I just don't think the Mob had the horsepower to control the investigations and the AGENCY AS A WHOLE was not involved though remember people are routinely "sheep dipped" and people like Harry Holmes continue to intrigue me.

two tours in Detroit Homicide taught me the why would tell you the who. I doubt any of us have ever heard of the actual shooters and they were probably back in Vietnam, dead, or on another continent within hrs. Was the Agency involved at some level? probably, but people need to understand the people on the sharp end of the stick were relatively unimportant. they were there because they could shoot not because they could have been arrested by happenstance and tracked back to CIA. having worked some admitedly less complicated murder conspirarcy cases, I've found the shooters are one of the least important links in the chain.

BUT REACHED THE SAME SILLY CONCLUSION ANYWAY. it was junk compared to either the M-1 Garand Oswald was issued or a number of commercial rifles such as the Winchester Model 70 which were available in 1963.

Today was the first time i had seen this image below. Look in the backround of this image: Mobile phone 1960's style. The man with the PRESS ticket on his suit coat. Is this what many people have reffered to as the Press Car Phone. ? Thanks for the pic Robin, I think it might well be. Never seen that type of contraption before. Imagine lugging that around. Wonder how it worked. I'm still surprised there was any type of mobile phone back then. Today was the first time i had seen this image below. Look in the backround of this image: Mobile phone 1960's style. The man with the PRESS ticket on his suit coat. Is this what many people have reffered to as the Press Car Phone. ? Thanks for the pic Robin, I think it might well be. Never seen that type of contraption before. Imagine lugging that around. Wonder how it worked. I'm still surprised there was any type of mobile phone back then. Btw, does anyone know who the two men on the left of this photo are, in sunglasses and big hats? They look rather ominous but I probably have a suspicious mind.... remember, we're alot closer than we used to be. what really bothers is me is that the Sheeple don't care that a President was murdered amd those responsible were never brought to justice.

Actually the topic's subject, if it is to be relevant, is Lee Oswald's shooting ability in November 1963, not his ability some 5 or so years earlier, when he was practising regularly. Mr. Purvis: why do you keep avoiding the question I posted earlier on this thread, namely, "Is it not the case that even a skilled marksman needs regular practice to maintain his skill, just like a violinist or a trumpet-player? Lee Oswald's life has probably been scrutinized in greater detail than any other private citizen in history, but where is the evidence that he practised marksmanship in the weeks/months preceding the assassination?" not a Marine Sharpshooter, just a former police sniper, swat instructor, and former contract instructor for a Fed Agency with direct counter-terrorist responsibilities. shooting at a target below you thats moving away from you is not the same as shooting from a rest at a target a known distance away. If Oswald was so high speed why did he try and do it with a piece of junk rifle instead of just stealing a quality rifle. evan marshall www.stoppingpower.net

documentation of any of this?

I was a very young boy, glued to the television that November weekend in 1963. I was still in a numb shock, a state of disbelief at what had happened to President Kennedy and the United States of America. My young mind could not comprehend how Oswald could escape the building, make a clean getaway, and manage to be captured shortly after in a theatre. Nothing that weekend added up. Oswald's protestations of innocence resonated with me because of his demeanor. His body language and facial expressions and voice tones did not seem consistent with guilt. I was watching when Ruby murdered him. Within hours, they were reporting that no records were kept of Oswald's interrogation. How could that be? What was going on? I remember a disquieting notion that Oswald would never be able to tell his side of the story. Because my mother had told me about the McCarthy era, I was not too quick to accept that Oswald was a Communist. When I went back to school on Monday morning, everyone was talking about Oswald and Russia. When I offered that Oswald might be innocent, I remember being ridiculed. If anyone agreed with me, I don't remember that. When it was announced that a bipartisan group of respected men headed by Chief Justice Earl Warren had been appointed, I was thinking that surely they would get to the bottom of things. How wrong I was. When it was leaked that they were going to agree with the FBI that Oswald acted alone, before they were finished, I was angry. Thanks to my mother, I had access to publications like Ramparts and A Minority of One, where some of the first views that dissented from official findings were published. When Mark Lane's book Rush to Judgement became a best seller, I felt that the Warren Commission's findings were proven to be demonstrably lacking. As each new book came out, I read it. When news of Jim Garrison's investigation became public and I saw him on televison, I was convinced that the American government's negligence was going to be exposed. When Shaw was found innocent, I was crushed. Not that the man Shaw was acquitted, but that Garrison had failed. By then, Dr. King and Senator Kennedy were dead, so were Hendrix, Morrison, and Joplin. And Richard Nixon was President. That was the irony of all ironies. Vietnam was raging, young people were dying for reasons that seemed unnecessary. Watergate didn't cause me to distrust our government, it merely confirmed what I already knew. Things were f___ed up. Kennedy's death, while an irremovable part of my psyche, had faded into the background of my mind, until a young man named Robert Groden appeared on the Geraldo Rivera show. Like almost all Americans, I saw the Zapruder film for the first time. Suddenly everyone was talking about the Kennedy assassination again, and this time there was not the universal acceptance of Oswald's lone guilt, as there was in 1963. Then there was the Church Committee making startling revelations, and the forming of the HSCA. This time, I was sure that the goverment would correct the wrongs of the Warren Commission. There was a spate of new books and I read them. When the results of the HSCA's findings were released, I took little solace in the acoustical evidence. When I read of all the deaths of people scheduled to testify, it was like "deja vu all over again." Essentially, I resigned myself to the fact that the murder of John Kennedy would never be solved. I read the occasional book. I never understood why Americans were not more outraged. Then, Oliver Stone made his movie and there was an attendant resurgence of interest in the JFK assassination. A flock of new books, some useless, a few very good. The formation of the Assassination Records Review Board. I was glad to see a renascence of interest but remained extremely cynical. There was no doubt in my mind that any smoking gun in those files had long been sanitized, if they had ever existed in the first place. I knew what they did to Oswald's military records. Fast forward to now. This Forum keeps me interested in the current state of research. I get to see what other people think. That is the most fascinating thing of all. Many of the people here have obsessions about finding the truth, just as I do and did. I listen and I learn, and I throw in my two cents worth from time to time. I am not a researcher. Just a reader. I am heartened that books are still being published, Bill Kelly is pursuing the formation of a grand jury, conferences are still held annually and that there are a lot of people that are more familiar with things than I. In summary, I think I have had a lifelong obsession with the murder of John Kennedy and the ensuing coverup. After all these years, I still can't understand how they got away with it. The coverup actually mystifies me more than the actual execution in Dealey Plaza. The unbelievable amount of evidence and events and people and circumstances pointing to a still unproven conspiracy is sometimes more than my mind can comprehend. He's still dead, isn't he?

Mark; Not unlike the sling/holster strap & holster, somewhere I have information relative to the ONLY location in Dallas which was dealing in the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo. That this was not fully followed (or if it was, it has not been fully reported on), is indicative of much of the manner in which "blinders" were applied in resolving many of the issues surrounding LHO and his acquisition of the weapons in his possession. For those who are not aware of it, a considerable number of expended 6.5mm Carcano casings were found by various persons and thereafter turned in to the FBI for examination to see if they had been fired from the Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSDB. And although, according to FBI documents, none of the casings appeared to have been fired from the TSDB Carcano, it demonstrates that someone around Dallas was shooting a considerable amount of Carcano ammo. None of which appears to have been followed up on by the FBI, other than some 7.35 casings and the box in which they came in that was found at an abandoned gravel pit. Lastly, since LHO/the shooter fired from what was virtually a "bench rest" position (book cartons & window sill), there was little usage for a sling in providing stability for a shooting platform. Therefore, the sling provided another function, and for those familiar, it should be relatively obvious. Wait, Wait, Don't tell me - It's so the US Army Air Force sidearm holster could be traced to Curtis LeMay - Right? BK he was in the service and sometimes things get "liberated" and taken home-the bigger question is why some one who had been in the Marine Corp when such great emphasis was placed on weapons skills, just not steal a quality rifle to do the deed.

Charles: Is there any point in making FOIA requests for documentation and photographs if you reject their evidentiary value if they do not fit your preconceived notions? That old saying comes to mind: "Please don't confuse me with the fact, I have already made up my mind." Two questins should be considered separately until there is evidence that they are linked: 1. Was William Pitzer murdered? 2. Did he at any time have in his possession a movie film of the Kennedy autopsy? I don't see any evidence that he was murdered and only Dennis David has stated that Pitzer was in possession of a movie film of the Kennedy autopsy within a few days of the assassination. There is no evidence that Pitzer retained possession of any JFK-autopsy photographic materials. Allan anyone ever stop to consider that a great way to keep us from the truth is let ourselves be drawn off on tangets that lead nowhere. One person said Pitzer had a film of the autopsy-no one else saw him filming but we want to believe it so bad we allow ouselves to be side tracked. the majority of suicides I investigated in Homicide did not leave a note-too many family members deny after the fact there were any signs SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY DID NOT PICKUP ON THE CLUES AND NOW GUILT PREVENTS THEM FROM ADMITTING THEY WERE INATTENTIVE TO THE CRIES FOR HELP FROM A LOVED ONE. just because some one claims to have been given an assignment to kill some one don't make it so-I had a partner in the Tac Unit who had been an assassin in Phoenix in Vietnam who told me that those who do it never talk about it-and he never did inspite of the fact that I saved his life on two occcassions. was there a conspiracy in Dallas? you bet! was there a second, seperate conspiracy to cover up what looked like Cuban/Russian involvement? Yup, it was called the Warren Commission. Read the 26 volumes several times like I did while in grad school-its silly and unbelievable.

where to start? people in DP should have been seperated-told not to talk to each other and id'd with picture id and statements taken area should have been secured-TBD especially limo should have been impounded and processed by DPD Dr's should have been interviewed once they knew Kennedy was dead-seperately autopsy should have been done in Dallas-my gosh how much better off we'd be whether it showed a single or multiple gunman-atleast we'd know for sure. LHO had no motive and never expressed one doing the "perp walk" got him killed he should have been moved in the middle of the night w/o warning DPD should have handled it like a homicide and not been buffaloed by the Fed's Will Fitz was no dummy-no big city homcide supervisor is/was Tippit should have been examined under a microscope-every OIS shooting I was ever involved in whether the fatality was an officer or citizen was done down to the last detail. the only scratches the surface-people on the knoll should have been detained if not arrested. I've worked drug dealer murders where more people were brought in and "put on the boards" (detained) than in JFK's murder.

Welcome to the Forum Evan, As far as I am concerned you speak the plain, and obvious truth. We will have to figure this one out without a "deathbed confession" Regards, Steve. Steve: I inherited several old Homicide cases and did solve some of them-I think it was possible to solve the case at the leadership level if not the shooter level-

Welcome to the Forum Evan, As far as I am concerned you speak the plain, and obvious truth. We will have to figure this one out without a "deathbed confession" Regards, Steve. Steve: I inherited several old Homicide cases and did solve some of them-I think it was possible to solve the case at the leadership level if not the shooter level-

Weird. why overcomplicate it-guys with the right creds and long guns could easily just disappear-all these super clandestine guns are difficult to use and impossible to explain away if dsicovered. A good bolt gun with a scope in the hands of some one in plain clothes or uniform could be explained away as part of security and then casually escape. Officialdom is still not exercised about people with secret service creds on the knoll. ear and eye witnesses are often problimatical AND remember this was preWatergate-we were for the most part political virgins.

Nancy doesn't understand people like Porter Goss or John Negroponte-operator's of the 1st order. other folks I know-"The Katzenjammer Kids" operate in a whole different world than little Nancy and her friends-they may investigate but need to remember the old Hell's Angels Motto-"Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead." "Most human truths are fiction to God"

Welcome to the Forum Evan, As far as I am concerned you speak the plain, and obvious truth. We will have to figure this one out without a "deathbed confession" Regards, Steve. Yes. Plus the fact that if someone will murder--they'll probably lie. I just don't see plotters as fountains of truth. actually, many of them probably have/had a "moral code" they strictly adhered to-skewed, of course, but I've met a number of killers I would trust my kids with and some Church people I wouldn't. In 20yrs in Detroit PD I only met a handful of truely evil people and sadly many of them had badges. Subsequent to that I've met a ton-many in Federal employment.

All I could find was a (yawn!) thread from one of the alt.whatever.jfk newsgroups on this. I found some other Donald Willis stuff (e.g., "Fact After All: Tippit Shot With an Automatic"), but not that. Well, Harry's little bit there sort of shoots the O-giving-fake-address thing, as well as him giving his info to a cop and being told he could leave. I have to admit, though, it did have the ring of truth to it! Ah, but we're no longer certain that he gave a false address, as true to form as that may have been, are we. That he knew something seems pretty apparent, if only from his statement - if I'm remembering correctly that this happened at all - that "it will all come out at my trial," or words to that effect. Of course, if it did, it no doubt redoubled people's concerns about what he'd say about them, and sealed his fate ... if it hadn't been sealed already.I've read of some scenarios where Oz was supposed to have been an infiltrator of sorts - they "listen" pretty well, actually - in Dallas into the whole Fort Hood/Terrell Armory weapons thing. That would lend some sense to why he would have been set up as the patsy - a big "gotcha!" - and might even lend some credence to his getting into someone's car in DP and heading off to Oak Cliff: how could he refuse them? Like an undercover narc who's gotten into a big coke ring or something having to tag along for and even participate in killings to maintain the cartel's trust. But when all's said and done, I really can't imagine anything as to what did or even might have happened at TSBD with Oz after the shooting ... or after he knew there was a shooting. It's just unfathomable to me, I can't get into a dead man's head. Well, I guess that "whole Bircher crew" could include the Roy Trulys of the world. You can't forget the Walker group either, tho' I suspect they really didn't have anything to do with it, but that only from Walker's own attitude about it, having people checking into things and so forth: it almost seemed as if he knew more than the WC did!Have you ever read the testimony of Revilo Pendleton Oliver, "America's premier patriot and scholar?" If not, before you do, read his articles about the assassination first, particularly "Marxmanship in Dallas" and "The Aftermath of the Assassination." Actually, you can check out the website dedicated to his fond memory at revilo-oliver.com, which includes several recordings of his speeches. According to one site discussing his patriotism and scholarship, This book, which is one of many that Oliver wrote during his long career as an academic at the University of Illinois, deals with his association with the John Birch Society, an organization founded to fight Communism. Oliver was a founding member of this patriotic organization and he not only edited their flagship publication, American Opinion, but also wrote numerous book reviews and articles. Oliver also spent many years traveling the Birch speaking circuit, trying desperately to persuade Americans of the dangers of Communism and the values of conservatism. Eventually, Oliver became disillusioned by the conservative movement and John Birch founder Robert Welch, and he turned his energies to what he perceived were the real issues in the struggle against Communism: Jews and the complete ignorance of the white race to recognize its greatness and destiny. It would be gut-busting hilarious if he wasn't so god-awful serious. The man is Rush Limbaugh on steroids. Yes, please do. Yet every single cop failed to see a shotgun ... or to testify to seeing one anyway.As you read those accounts, you'll probably come across Pinky Westbrook's anecdote - which may be the same as above (underlined) - about how (ha-ha) one of the officers' hands was cuffed, someone apparently mistaking it for Oswald's. How, I don't know, it's not like Lee was dressed like a cop or detective. Did it have a gun in it at some point? Nobody who testified before the WC mentioned this incident other than Westbrook. I believe that it was either Thomas Hutson or C.T. Walker who also commented that someone wsa telling Oz to let go of the gun, and he'd responded "I can't" or "I'm trying," like he was unable to let loose of it. Interesting scenario. I'm guessing this will be in the installment about officers' testimonies about the goings-on at the theater? So, who killed him? I retired from Detroit Homicide and let me assure you nothing effects a cop like the murder of another officer-frankly, I think Tippit was killed to "encourage" responding officers not to take Oswald alive. I participated in a number of searches for cop killers and arrest was always the last and least preferred option.