Kathleen Collins

I never said he never saw the film! This thread started out about no blood seen on the trunk of the car. Now people are climbing out of the woodwork to more or less insult my intelligence or disturb me. F--- the "other" film. I've had it. Kathy C

I have a theory. Frank Sinatra's son was kidnapped by 3 men in December 1963. They had to do prison time. I think the Mob wanted another distraction from Ruby. Who did the most to get Kennedy elected in the first place? Frank Sinatra. That's my theory. Is that what you mean when you say I'm in a fantasy world? Richard Belzer and David Wayne wrote about my theory on why Karyn Kupcinet died -- to get her father, Irv Kupcinet to back down about Ruby and the assassination. I was mentioned in that book at least twice. They agreed with me. Kathy C I think you prefer larger-than-life fantasies over boring reality. That doesn't make you a xxxx.

Dan Rather is the xxxx. Someone put him up to this. And then he was famous. Jackie was out of her mind. He had to wake her up and get her back in the car. She could have gotten shot. Kathy C .

I think you prefer larger-than-life fantasies over boring reality. That doesn't make you a xxxx. Where did you get this from? Your attitude towards me. I told you everything Rich told me, but he never mentioned Jackie being slapped or pushed. I read that I think on Burnham's forum. Where do you get "fantasies" from? How do you know me? You don't. And if Burnham is involved with this there will be fireworks. Kathy C

David, sometimes witnesses are wrong. Especially at a serious event. For instance, Penn Jones, whom everyone worships, told the public that Karyn Kupcinet was murdered because she had foreknowledge of the assassination and was trying to put a call through Chicago. Wrong. If she was murdered it was to stop Irv Kupcinet of Chicago from investigating Jack Ruby. Greg Parker researched this and theorized that it was a woman practicing a Rosicrucian ritual and she did know Kennedy was about to be killed and she was using the phone as for radionics. Who was the woman? Nobody knows. If Karyn took an overdose of pills -- suicide or accident -- why did she unlock her front door? Kathy C

It occurred to me that the limo could be seen at Parkland Hospital. There are pictures of the SS cleaning the car. Johnson ordered it. Destroying the crime scene. Kathy C

"Some folks are born fabulists. The truth seems boring to them." -- Valenti Valenti, I am not a xxxx. You have called me that. You will not get away with it. Check your friend Burnham's Forum. Kathy C

I can tell you right now that Rich Dellarosa described it to me. We talked about it often. He had seen the film 3 times. The slapping or pushing was meant to get her back into the car. It entirely exposed SS standing down, letting the assassination happen. We don't see it in the Z film. It was the turn onto Elm, the throat shot (which the sign doesn't block), the car stopping, and the 2 head shots. I've only read the slap from someone who claimed he saw the film. What else could Clint do for her? Kathy C

(Bolds mine.) I will reserve commenting on most of this, because I just don't want to go there, but I have to ask, (and forgive me if this is written elsewhere or common knowledge), you say Clint Hill slapped Jackie? What? Where did this come from? Why would he do that? I would like to see a credible source for this. This is one of the crummiest things I've seen written. Her husband has just been shot in the head, and Clint runs to the limo, climbs up on the trunk, and slaps her? Are you kidding me? A lot of the JFK discussions are really getting "out there", IMO. I read this recently. There is so much Kennedy material on the Internet. I read it on a Kennedy site where someone posted that Clint Hill slapped Jackie because the car was going fast and she didn't even know he was there or what she was doing. He was afraid she'd get shot. She had to get back into the car. She was in shock. The car began to speed and she could have been a target if she stayed on the trunk. It's possible that I read it on Burnham's forum. The subject was the "other" film. When you say the posts are getting "out there" do you mean mine? Kathy C

The "other" film shows the turn onto Elm St., where a "firecracker" went off. In the Hughes film they left a frame in of Kennedy reacting to something painful. His face changes as something hit him. He brings his hand back into the car. Kennedy tries again to smile and wave and is hit in the throat from a shot coming from the front. His elbows fly up. The Stemmons Freeway sign is much smaller and doesn't hide what happened. He is hit from behind and the back of his head is blown away. Then the 2 big ones: SA Greer stops momentarily and turns to see Kennedy and sees him shot twice in the head from the right front. Greer takes off, saying later that he didn't want to drive Kennedy into an ambush. Ha, Ha. SA Clint Hill gets atop the vehicle and hits Jackie to get her to go back into the car. They drive off. So you see the turn, the sign is smaller, you see Greer stop the car and Clint Hill slapping Jackie. And it was very gruesome. I think Eugene Brading shot from behind from the Dal-Tex building, where he was discovered, brought in and let go. Kathy C

I just remembered. Isn't there a discrepancy regarding the length of the trunk? Between the Nix film and the Zapruder film. One trunk is longer than the other one.

I don't get the analogy and I don't think it's silly. But that must have been some artist to capture Jackie Kennedy's perfect reflection. They say the "other" film was very gory, but in the Z film they cleaned up most of it. Kathy C

The Zapruder film is doctored to make us believe the shots only came from behind. Yes, there were back shots hitting Connally and President Kennedy. The Z film has a dark color mark on the back of Kennedy's head; a disguise. They were too stupid, desperate or lazy to use a brown color. But when he's hit in the head from the front and side, Jackie climbs onto the trunk to retrieve a bone. She was not trying to escape -- in a pink suit and crawling onto the trunk where she is in a shooter's view. That trunk in the Z film is perfectly clean with a great reflection of Jackie. Now if Kennedy was shot from the front and side, the trunk of the car would have blood and gore all over it. Maybe this never occurred to anyone. But Clint Hill is still alive. When he jumped on the back of the car, was it bloody or shiny clean? I understand there's a book out by him about his protecting Jackie. I wonder if he describes the blood, etc. I think this is one way to determine if the Zapruder film was faked or not. We know it's faked, but it would be a great way to "see" from where he was shot. I am going to look up this issue; it occurred to me this morning. Please give opinions or more info about the trunk. Kathy C

Although I already believe it's Lansdale, the amateurish "photographic study" you posted does not persuade. What's amateurish about it?

I'm bumping this up. It's from AJ Weberman -- the color version of Oswald's address book. Kathy C

I'm bumping this up because I just bought the book and need to understand it. Also I trust AJ Weberman in his endeavors. When a show aired on his garbology, my father, divorced from my mother, started stealing our garbage. Kathy C

I agree with you. It was a team. I don't understand why they had spotters next to people who really weren't shooters. Also, people who believe in the 2 Oswalds: I believe they murdered "Lee." Fifty-one years have passed. We would have heard about him. I researched Donald O. Norton, whom some believe is really Lee, but I don't believe it. He's a red-head. I know hair dye and that hair isn't dyed; it's real. And his fishing supply store became a tourist trap. Then he moved out of Avon, FL. Kathy C

Greg Burnham, on 31 Mar 2015 - 2:18 PM, said: Mr. Valenti: Ridiculous, and you are clearly impacted by your personal feelings toward Prouty. I haven't said one thing that isn't true. This is what's in the record. You may dispute it, that's your right and given your relationship, your duty. But for crying out loud, don't be paranoid about motives you know nothing about. If you go into these discussions with a chip on your shoulder, you'll only see things through a very narrow lens. If you ascribe attributes to me (or anyone you disagree with) based on your sour feelings toward others, you may never come to any new conclusions. It's what causes people to start their own forums and kick out people who disagree with their world view." Kathleen Collins: Mr. Valenti, you hit the nail right on its head. Greg Burnham: "Former VP Nixon, despite his uncertain stories about his whereabouts to the contrary, was still in Dallas that afternoon where he had been with a meeting of Pepsi Cola officials." Mr. Valenti: This is not true: Kathy Collins: Thanks. Nixon left Dallas-Fort Worth during Kennedy's motorcade. He is pictured, sitting in a chair at an airport, either Fort Worth-Dallas or NYC crying. I'm sure he had a couple of drinks. Nixon liked Kennedy, but if he ever told about what was going to happen to Kennedy, he would have been killed himself or a member of his family would have been targeted." Kathy C

Some months ago, I read a curious article or chapter about how Kennedy was embalmed. But after this work, the body's wounds were opened up in a way that no one in the future could tell where the gunshots came from or made them all impossible to read. Next, Jackie and Bobby were believed to have had the brain given to them. One part of this account said they removed Kennedy's eyes. But secretly, Bobby and Jackie had the body cremated. When it was cremated the crematory kept names and dates of each person they had turned to ashes. In this record there was a cremation done in late November that had no name written in. I've been trying all over to find this account again, but haven't been successful. Does anyone know where I can find this article? The ashes were presumably placed in the coffin buried on Monday, Nov. 25. Thank you. The article below just adds to the confusion. http://www.effinghamdailynews.com/news/local_news/altamont-native-prepared-john-f-kennedy-for-funeral/article_de225411-14e0-5c03-bc9b-b74e71dc901c.html Nathan Scholes For the Daily News [Altamont] On Nov. 22, 1963, as the nation mourned the loss of President John F. Kennedy, morticians of Joseph Gawler's Son Inc were summoned to Bethesda (MD) Naval Hospital to embalm the body and prepare it for viewing. According to one embalmer, the nature of the president's wounds required that he use "all of my knowledge and acquired skill to make him presentable." This embalmer, Edwin Bates Stroble, was a native of Altamont and one-time apprentice at Kull Funeral Home. Born May 22, 1921, to Edwin P. and Gladys G. Stroble, the younger Stroble began working for local businessman Woodrow Kull in high school before enlisting in the United States Navy. Following a stint of service that saw him fighting on Attu, he returned home. It was at this time that he began his apprenticeship under the supervision of Kull to learn the trade of embalming. In a letter to family friend Linda Frederick (nee Grobengieser) shortly after the assassination, Stroble credits Kull with teaching him "how to pose features naturally, and how to use a horse sense flair for make-up." He also referred to Kull as "one of the greatest embalmers I've ever watched." According to Stroble's sister-in-law, Ruby Stroble, he eventually decided to move to the East Coast, a place he had lived during his time in the Navy. He then began working for Joseph Gawler's Sons Inc, a prestigious Washington, D.C., funeral home, as a mortician. He did, however, make frequent trips home, visiting his family, Kull's Funeral Home and Frederick's father, Delbert Grobengieser. "He would park his sports car in the driveway and make me drool over it," recalled Frederick. Stroble was described as a "real likeable guy" by his sister-in-law and spent his time fishing and hunting. He writes that his main interest was music, in particular the works of Hoagy Carmichael. Frederick credits Stroble with getting her into Shriner's Hospital for treatment of her polio, when her family was considering sending her to Chicago. Stroble objected, stating that she would be treated like a lab rat in the northern facility. Due to the care she received at Shriner's, Frederick states that "people don't even realize that I had polio." As for the cause of his minor notoriety, it was, in part, Stroble's December 1963 home visit that alerted local residents to his connection with the Kennedy funeral. Lynn Kull, son of Stroble's mentor, recalls Stroble coming into the Kull embalming room and showing him the check he received for embalming the President. After a period of disbelief by Kull, Stroble mentioned that the President had been shot at the very top of the cranium and approximately the 7th vertebrae. He also mentioned that Kennedy's face was "not that marred." Considering the extensive work done to restore Kennedy's body, Stroble was disappointed when Jacqueline Kennedy decided that the casket would be closed for services. She and the President's brothers viewed him in the East Room of the White House, along with select staffers, before she ordered the closure. He did, however, come to believe that "as things turned out, it was a wise decision on her part." Kathy C

I haven't read this whole thread entirely. There is a kindle book on Amazon called the DD Group. Don't know what the name means. It's about MM's death. It was accidental. Dr. Engleberg wouldn't come over to see her because he was in the middle of a divorce. The psychiatrist went over to Engleberg and picked up liquid Nembutal. When Greenson, the psych dr, brought it to Marilyn's house, he asked Eunice Murray to give Marilyn an enema which would help her relax. No one knew she had chloral hydrate in her system. Where did she get it? Probably in Mexico. Eunice was told to use a certain amount (cc's) of the liquid in an enema. The doctor left. What really killed MM was that Eunice gave her the whole thing and MM died. Pat Newcomb, arriving at the house and finding out what happened said, "That woman (Eunice Murray) should be hung up by her thumbs." So for me the mystery is solved. But I believe, like the author, that had she not known the Kennedys or Lawfords, she could have lived. They did not have her best interests in heart. Kathy C

That was some re-creation. It's better than what the FBI did. I guess I'm not schooled in animation. When you call it a comic-book movie, I think of animation or graphic novels. They certainly did a good job. Even guessing what the photographer sees -- Abe Zapruder, one of the walls. This is where some researchers say the Other film was shot. Strange coincidence. Kathy C

Someone uploaded a short film of Jackie Kennedy getting up on the trunk and her Secret Service man running to catch the car. I have never seen this film before. It doesn't appear to be a re-enactment. It was shot behind Zapruder and you can see him briefly and part of a wall. Could this be the real film, the Other film? I'd like to mention that this is the birthday of Karyn Kupcinet, possibly killed by a hit man. See Belzer and Wayne's "Hit List." I understand they have also gone over her murder in "Dead Wrong 2." Kathy C

As Jim Garrison said, from the movie JFK: "Could the Mob change the parade route, Bill, or eliminate the protection for the President? Could the Mob send Oswald to Russia and get him back? Could the Mob get the FBI the CIA, and the Dallas Police to make a mess of the investigation? Could the Mob appoint the Warren Commission to cover it up? could the Mob wreck the autopsy? Could the Mob influence the national media to go to sleep? And since when has the Mob used anything but .38's for hits, up close. The Mob wouldn't have the guts or the power for something of this magnitude. Assassins need payrolls, orders, times, schedules. This was a military-style ambush from start to finish... a coup d'etat with Lyndon Johnson waiting in the wings." Did the mafia really manage the JFK assassination? Nope. Then why did Ruby kill Oswald? Who was he protecting by shooting Oswald? It wasn't in the initial plot for someone to kill Oswald? My guess is Ruby was working with the CIA. Oswald was supposed to be killed by that cop you see running towards the TSBD after it happened. But when the policeman got there a woman was with Oswald and he couldn't do it. They used Ruby, who was dope smuggling and gun running with the Cubans and the CIA already. Kathy C

Terry Adams: your signature quotes Bobby Kennedy, who was quoting George Bernard Shaw. Just some trivia. With this film, you never know what it could be. It could show George H.W. Bush standing outside the TSBD. It could show the Cuban and the Umbrella Man and their signals. It could show the people on the knoll. Re the Zapruder frames, it could show at least part of the "other" film. Kathy C