Kathleen Collins

I have found a lot of information on John M. Liggett. It supports the Robert Morningstar theory that another body was substituted for for President Kennedy's body. The reason was to give the body of another dead person head wounds that will "prove" Kennedy was hit from the back. Liggett went into the Dallas Morgue and took out a body. I ask, could that body be J.D. Tippet's? Morningstar believes so. I am showing tonight part of an article by Phillip F. Nelson on LewRockwell.com, November 17, 2014. It says a lot more about John Liggett, but I want to close in on President Kennedy's death and John Liggett. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/11/phillip-f-nelson/lbjs-henchman/ "John Liggett had worked for several other funeral homes in Dallas before he went to the largest such mortuary and cemetery in Dallas, Restland, which had allegedly been owned by a member of the Texas Mafia. Liggett had become highly skilled in the use of reconstructive techniques to eliminate all signs of physical damage on corpses which had been brutally attacked, horribly disfigured in automobile accidents or died by gunshot(s), and he was considered “the best” by his colleagues in that particular segment of the mortuary business. His skills were so good that, when the beautiful actress Jayne Mansfield was killed and decapitated in a car accident in Louisiana, John Liggett was selected to make it appear that her head was still attached to her body because her family insisted on an open casket funeral.* Liggett led a dual life in 1963, married to a woman named Lois who said that he would be gone for days or weeks at a time without explanation. Lois had children from a previous marriage but John maintained his distance from them during that period and one of them, Debra Godwin, claimed that she had always suspected he was merely treating them as “cover” to provide him with an aura of being a plain, average guy. Immediately after JFK’s assassination, Liggett was called while at work at Restland Funeral Home. He rushed to Parkland, calling his wife only once to let her know that he had been asked to work on the President and that he would call her, she shouldn’t try to call him. According to Billie Sol Estes, in his book Billie Sol Estes — A Texas Legend, Liggett left Restland with an assistant, taking a body that had been stored in the morgue that was similar to JFK’s body [my emphasis] and prepared to look like a rear head shot was the cause of death. Estes stated that the second body was used to create false evidence and that photographs, x-rays and even the complete brain from that cadaver were substituted for JFK’s autopsy “records” in order to re-frame the documents to conform to the official story; moreover, he stated that all of this was sent first to the White House before being sent to the FBI, the Warren Commission and the National Archives. According to Estes, the “other body” was taken to Washington on a private jet. If that story is true, it is a possible explanation of the provenance of the discrepancies that exist in photographs and x-rays which could not have been taken of Kennedy’s head. It might also explain the enigma, noted elsewhere, of the supposed existence of JFK’s complete brain, weighing 1500 grams, more than an average male brain, as reported by several authors; that is impossible, since most of his brain had been blown out the back of his head, much of it splattering the motorcycle policeman B. J. Martin in the process. The scenario that I previously portrayed, in LBJ: The Mastermind, had been based partly on David Lifton’s early research, but I independently concluded that JFK’s body was moved to a shipping crate and put on “Air Force 2″. I have since reevaluated that, based upon Lifton’s latest research, pending publication, which clarifies that and proves that JFK’s body was indeed simply moved to the cargo hold of Air Force One immediately upon delivery of the ornate casket, while the Kennedy party was still on the tarmac. Lifton explained his findings at an address in November, 2013, at Bismarck State University, which is available for viewing on a Youtube video. Mr. Lifton has recently advised me that his latest work, now underway, will address this point further as he has obtained additional information on how JFK’s body was moved to Washington. Researcher / author Doug Horne has also written what is arguably the most detailed, meticulously documented account of the events on Air Force One and Bethesda Naval Hospital ever written to date: The AF1 Tapes and Subsequent Events at Andrews AFB on November 22, 1963: What Was Supposed to Happen vs. What Did Happen at the Future of Freedom Foundation website. As I previously noted, the overall story portrayed does not hinge on which of these scenarios was the true and complete one, the details of which may never be known with absolute certainty. The one thing that is certain is that the “official” version described by the Warren Commission cannot be reconciled with the numerous contradictions which have already been identified in a number of books and summarized here. According to Episode 7 (The Smoking Guns) of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, a day after the assassination, John Liggett returned home, unshaven, disheveled and very tired. According to his wife, “he looked like he had been in a traumatic event.” Yet he immediately took his wife and three step-children to Austin and San Antonio, talking briefly and furtively to men he met at each stop as he rushed from Dallas to these other cities, even getting a speeding ticket between Dallas and Austin. He then took the family on to Corpus Christi, where on Sunday morning they watched Jack Ruby shoot Oswald on live television. Upon seeing that stunning event, he turned to his wife and said calmly, “Everything’s OK now. . . and you could just see his face, it was like all the pressure had been taken off of him.” Shortly after the assassination, John Liggett came into a lot of money and bought an expensive Dallas home and then became the host of numerous high-stakes poker parties. At one of these parties, the daughter of Lois Liggett, Debra Godwin, stated that David Ferrie — who was a long-time acquaintance, and a short-time “handler” of Lee Harvey Oswald in the summer of 1963 in New Orleans — appeared, and that John said he had known him while he served in the Civil Air Patrol." *Jayne Mansfield was not decapitated. She was thrown from the car when the car, driven by someone else, ran into a mosquito-spraying truck at high speed. Her wig came off and blood ran down the door of the car. The top of her head had some bleeding. Kathy C

Bump. What went on with Kennedy's body? Kathy C

Bump. I think this is very important. Kathy C

I found this on the Internet. It doesn't say who the author is. For some reason it's all in one, not the paragraphs I copied. Also it says that a friend, Bill Walton, told Bobby, "It's a wax dummy. Close the coffin." It also makes the point that Kennedy's back was very messed up and should have shown this in the autopsy photos -- surgery scars. http://mygodimhit.com/Burden-Of-Proof.pdf Burden of Proof Life or Death Which one of these conditions requires a greater burden of proof? Claiming a human is dead carries a higher burden of proof than declaring an individual, who is already alive, exists and remains in a living state. Even after the gun shots and explosions completed on Elm Street in Dallas on November 22, 1963, the far greater burden of proof is on those who declare JFK was murdered than on those who state he survived the shooting and lived. Again, the extraordinary claim is the finality of death while the ordinary claim is continued life. Has the burden of proof ever been satisfied in regards to the alleged murder of JFK that supposedly occurred on Elm Street? Have those individuals, groups and most importantly the appropriate U.S. Government agencies who claim JFK was killed on Elm Street, provided enough quality evidence to satisfy the burden of proof? Was the burden of proof truly satisfied so a credible and valid death certificate should have been issued? John Fitzgerald Kennedy had gross skeletal abnormalities all along the spine of his body because several of his vertebrae had fractures and metal pins inserted into the cartilage and bones. These negative spinal conditions were caused by JFK having osteoporosis as a child and injuries incurred during his military service in the 1940s. Under the section titled Skeletal Structure in the autopsy report issued by the United States Navy are one brief line of words declaring - "No gross skeletal abnormalities." "No gross skeletal abnormalities." JFK's personal physician directed the procedure but did not sign the official autopsy report. He and two other medical doctors did not observe and take written notice of any fractures and pins along the spine of the victim, hence the written report declared "no gross skeletal abnormalities." This critical portion of the burden of proof for those who declare JFK died in Dallas has been utterly destroyed because obviously the body autopsied in Bethesda Hospital was not the real JFK. Any competent doctor (and all of those doctors were very competent) could have not missed detecting and reporting those conditions detailed in the hands-on examination and the X-ray pictures of the real JFK. 2 The autopsy X-rays of the victim's spine have never been released by the U.S. Government. Again, the Bethesda Hospital doctors, not conspiracy advocates, totally invalidated the credibility and honesty of the death certificate by their own written words entered into the inaccurate autopsy report. All of the key tissue samples taken from the victim disappeared after the autopsy therefore there is no biological related proof that the victim was really JFK. Again, this critical portion of the burden of proof for those who declare JFK died in Dallas has been utterly destroyed because the tissue samples from the victim were never properly tested and analyzed to prove the victim was really JFK. The U.S Government has never released the complete set of official color still photos or motion picture film of the dead body autopsied in Bethesda Hospital to the news media or the general public. Once more, this critical portion of the burden of proof for those who declare JFK died in Dallas has been utterly destroyed because they nor any human can prove JFK really died in Dallas by viewing and studying all of the official photographic images of the dead victim. If all of the official still and motion picture images were released of the body autopsied at Bethesda Hospital, they would probably be discredited as fakes that do depict the real body of JFK within hours after their release. Dr. Robert McClelland M.D. held forceps on the neck wound of the victim in Parkland Hospital while other medical personal completed a tracheotomy. Dr. McClelland had an excellent and unobstructed view of the head wound on the right lower side of the victim's skull. He described the skull bone as being totally blown away. Dr. McClelland viewed the supposedly official yet private autopsy photos in the JFK Library and unofficial public autopsy photos on the Internet. He declared all those pictures, that detail different locations of the head wound, do not depict the genuine head wound he studied for over 10 minutes while the body was in Trauma Room One. Dr. McClelland was asked "Could the body in Trauma Room One, the body in the JFK library photos and the body in the Internet photos actually be three different, distinct and separate human victims? Dr. McClelland's reply -- "Highly probable." Not one of JFK's relatives nor his friends recognized the body lying in the casket on November 24,1963 as being the real JFK. In summation, the autopsy report and the tissue samples from and pictures of the dead victim have either been destroyed, discredited or never existed in the first place. The replacement body in the casket was either a stranger or as JFK friend Bill Walton blurted "It's a wax dummy." 3 If any human being had been put on trial for the murder of JFK, the prosecution would have had a firm corpus delicti (body of evidence that a crime took place) but would be lacking any scientific proof of an authentic mor JFK homo corpus -- dead JFK human body. Death masks have been created from the corpses of all dead U.S. Presidents except for Warren Harding because his wife forbad the procedure. There is no indication by any kind of official source that a death mask was or was not created from the supposed corpse of JFK. Does a JFK death mask exist or did the ritual procedure not take place because of the most profound and accurate reason... JFK was alive after November 22, 1963? Whatever the reason, there is no JFK death mask available for scientific analysis. Has the burden of proof been satisfied? No Will the burden of proof ever be satisfied? No The best the U.S. Government has and can ever produce in regards to substantiating the murder of JFK in Dallas is an undermined and meaningless piece of paper issued by the United States Navy titled Death Certificate. That is all there is and nothing more. There are millions of individuals, including conspiracy advocates, who will get in line and step with what the Powers-That-Be want them to think and feel. Therefore that portion of the populace simply believes the name and authorized signature on the death certificate is good enough for them and the burden of proof is meaningless and does not need to be satisfied. For a significant portion of the conspiracy advocates, believing the simple and lone death certificate is true and real, provides them an emotional barrier against any kind of harsh reality. A majority of the conspiracy advocates realize that once they acknowledge that the burden of proof will never be satisfied, all of their months, years or decades of investigative effort will have been horribly betrayed by Jack, Jackie and their co-conspirators. In another words, rather than dealing with the reality that they and millions of others are chump audience members in a fake theater production of illusions and deceptions, they will hope and believe the false death certificate represents reality. This agonizing paradigm shift is just too much stress on their emotional and mental states therefore clinging to the worthless death certificate provides them a fantasy sense of protection 4 and security. In their of state of insecurity (masked as fantasy security), they will offhand denounce this presentation but will not discuss or debate the issues and points of this presentation. Since the real burden of proof has not been satisfied and will never be satisfied by those who believe but cannot scientifically prove JFK was murdered in Dallas, the next logical step is to investigate how JFK survived and lived rather than how he was supposedly killed. Does continuing to investigate an alleged murder when there is no scientific proof and there will never be any scientific proof that a dead body of JFK was a true reality on November 22, 1963, make any logical sense? Definitely Not. The project known as "My God, I'm Hit!" is the first successful attempt to transform and transcend and the nearly 50 year stagnant JFK/Elm Street investigation. The documentary takes the viewer beyond the utter failures by those who believe JFK was killed yet they cannot satisfy the basic and fundamental levels for the burden of proof that JFK was really murdered. There is a wide-scope of investigation, discoveries and incredible revelations beyond the meaningless signature on the invalid JFK death certificate. For example, the true condition and meanings of JFK's suit jacket and shirt he wore that fateful day in Dallas are revealed by a Sherlock Holmes approach to the official photos taken by various U.S. Government agencies. The "My God, I'm Hit!" project is the first view of this compelling panorama that details a more realistic appraisal and documentation of what truly happened on Elm Street. Kathy C

Joe and others, I am trying very hard to find the info I gave you regarding Jackie and Bobby's reaction to the dead President. I remember Jackie said it looked like something you'd find in Madame Tussauds. Some people believe it was J.D. Tippit in that coffin. The military needed a body to make it look like all the shots came from the back. That's where Ligget comes in. Kathy C

I didn't read the details of this thread because I didn't want to be affected. This is what I see. I was struck immediately by the "hairline." It made me think this was the Oswald in Ruby's club, because if I'm seeing it right the man has Lee Oswald's hairline. The man's head is turned to his right a bit. He has more hair than Harvey Oswald. Look up the hairline of Lee in Ruby's club. He's a caucasian and he resembles the man in the club. That's all I see. One face. I always like your work, Duncan. Keep going. I have the photo of Lee in my computer but I can't seem to post it. And I don't know how to attach it here. Kathy C

What about Liggett? He supposedly made the dead body of J.D.Tippit look more like Kennedy, so as to make bullet courses from the back. When Robert Kennedy viewed the open coffin at the white house, he said,"It doesn't even look like him." Then Liggett came into some money, maybe a million. He bought a new home and had poker parties all the time. He loved to gamble and his ex-wife saw him in Las Vegas, when he was supposed to be dead. Kathy C

I am so relieved to hear that. I thought she was dead. Thanks for letting me know, Dawn. I think Doug had the same idea as me. Kathy C

Dear Members and Admins, Have any of you heard anything about Terry Mauro? Some months ago she posted somewhere that she wouldn't be able to answer emails from some club or organization. I tried to email her yesterday but the email came back. I had her phone number some years ago, but I don't know where it is. I am concerned because she is very ill. Please, if anyone knows anything, please let me know. Kathy C

Regarding the body switch, Jackie wanted a lock of his hair. Was J.D. Tippit's hair as thick and reddish brown as Kennedy's? President Kennedy's hair was thick, but J.D.Tippit's wasn't. Wouldn't that be enough to really believe it wasn't Kennedy? Kathy C

What is your source for this friend of RFK saying that It's not JFK in the coffin, it's a wax dummy. Where does that come from? Joe Joe, Arthur Schlessinger was there at the opening of the coffin. The quote of "It's a wax dummy, close the coffin" comes from him. What book it's from I cannot recollect. I read information about Bobby and Jackie deciding to have President Kennedy cremated. I am desperately looking for this. I believe it came, obviously, from a Kennedy book. And I believe I read it on amazon. You can click on a book and read passages from it. That's where I think I saw it. I continue to search. I am constantly reading here and there. You think you're going to remember but sometimes you don't. Kathy C

This isn't written in blood, but I was told by a researcher that the wall Zapruder stood upon was 4 feet tall. I would also suggest that you compare your 3-D model with Google Earth Street View to see Dealey Plaza today. Kathy C

Here's my take on believing a conspiracy killed my President. Childhood: the Back Yard photos. It's so obvious how unnatural the man is. Nobody is built like that. It's a joke. I don't understand how people believed those pictures. And the other thing is Ruby shooting Oswald, which my father and I watched live as it happened. Surrounded by police with no escape, Ruby shoots Oswald. Something's going on. Kathy C

Very recently, I came across Robert Morningstar who says he has found the missing frames from the Zapruder film. I believe Youtube has the turn onto Elm, which Morningstar found. I have also seen the frontal head shot. It is more gory than what we have. Also cut out of the film is Jackie hugging Kennedy with both arms after that shot. I would suggest to people: look up Robert Morningstar. He said he will publish the film, but feels people aren't ready to see it, as it is so gory. Personally, I think we've waited enough. Kathy C

No matter one way or the other, the Secret Service stood down on Nov.22, 1963. Plus many of them were up all night drinking, according to reports. Jackie Kennedy was suspicious about Greer, the driver. He came to a stop, after applying the brakes and the passengers fell forward. This last you can see on the Zapruder film. Jackie despised Greer after that. But my concern here is Clint Hill. I have his book about him and Jackie. I haven't read it yet. Why? Because my apartment is practically a library/book warehouse. I will get to his book, but I have many to read. I don't trust Clint Hill because he didn't immediately run to the limo. And when he did on the Nix film, it all seems cartoonish. But he did get in the car. And later he said he heard the bullets coming from the TSBD. There he was, adjacent to the Grassy Knoll and he heard the shots from the TSBD? He knows the real truth and has to live with it. And if Greer had hit the pedal when he heard the shots, maybe President Kennedy might have survived. Greer must have heard the shots. That's what he's trained for. So he stops the car. Idiot. Jackie made fun of his apology to friends. She was disgusted. Greer should have resigned. I listen to a lot of radio shows on the internet about the Assassination.and have learned much, as I have on the forums. Kathy C

This is what I read on the Internet this week and it might explain something. Supposedly the KGB was watching Oswald and also a "double." They killed Lee but they wanted to kill Harvey. They made a mistake.. This would explain why there are virtually no photos of an adult Lee, He had to have been killed. I couldn't find anymore on this topic. FWIW. Kathy C

Darren, here is where I see the little shadow. It's on the left-middle of the frames. It's a man's shadow and he has a rifle. This is supposed to be a shooter reflected onto the Z-film from the Records building. Frames: 202 - 207. Another researcher discoverd this. Kathy C

Douglas, we're the fringe. Kathy C

I think Duncan is an absolute maverick as a photographer. He discovered Tan Jacket Man. I'll never forget that. And I listen to a lot of Kennedy-related radio shows and hear Jim DiEugenio a lot. What I like about Jim is his sense of humor about all the crazy things he finds out. Kathy C

I say YES. When you first see him you can tell he has that plaid shirt on. It's very possible it is Lovelady. Kathy C

OK. I forgive you. Kathy C

This is Frank Sturgis, if you want to compare him to the photo of "Oswald" in Ruby's club.

I disagree, Ray. The hairline is the same. Take a real close look. There's a "notch" in the hairline just like the passport photo. It just seems like the hair is combed just slightly different than the other photo. Also, in the Club Oswald's left ear looks bigger because I believe something or someone is right behind it. Maybe someone's hand. Kathy C

I guess I stand alone. That picture looks shockingly like LEE Oswald, if you believe in Harvey and Lee, the 2 Oswalds. However, if you look closely at the Passport photo, you will see that it's been tampered with. Resize it and you can see a white line right below the eyes. The man in the club is definitely not the man shot by Ruby. Kathy C

I always believed the Sinatra kidnapping was a little payback for getting Kennedy elected in the first place. Kathy C