David Andrews

In more sensationalist writing about intel ops, Division Five gets credited with black bag work (office and home break-ins, document theft or photography, and related arts) in both the cold war and Cointelpro periods, and is sometimes cited as a domestic death squad. The death squad business is chiefly what I meant by "rumors." That's why I brought Division Five up after Cliff's post above, and I think these rumors are what Paul was interested in. It's great to get the organizational facts from Ernie and Larry, but what about the rumors? Mae Brussell bought into the rumors, yet the places where she couldn't separate fact from paranoia, and so disseminated both, are the weakest parts of her research and the least useful parts of her writing and broadcasting.

Division Five is cited many places - including MLK in Memphis - but never with any definitive history. Sometimes I see its existence denied. So - reality or rumor. Larry Hancock?

I'm going to re-read Pic's testimony tonight and try to describe the friction between Pic and Jenner exactly, with quotations.

So Cubans? Also, not to go off track - and not specifically directed to Cliff - what is known about FBI's Division Five? Death squad in reality, or just a rumor?

Jim, has John ever considered why John Pic took an angry attitude in his WC testimony? One couldn't read his emotions from the transcript, but the WC counsel brings the attitude up to Pic and threatens Pic with the law and the military authorities if he doesn't cooperate. This may be the only instance in the WCR where a witness receives this treatment.

Good to see the Krock article, Jim. Often that article is cited as anti-CIA and the source of warnings that the CIA was too powerful and interfering, but it's clear from reading Krock that his is an equivocating response to Richard Starnes' courageous work. Krock is doing damage control, goading Kennedy, and stealing Starnes' glory, all in one shot. If a plot against Kennedy were not already underway, this piece would be a serious incitement to war between the Agency and the Executive.

"Dirty Dick" Helms seems obvious - that was his nickname well before Watergate. One of the curiosities of the letter is recipient "Arturo Verdestein," or Arthur Greenstein. This was a curious friendship for Nagell to have and maintain, and not enough is known about this guy, or researched in the Russell book. "Arthur Greenstein" seems oddly close to "Abe Greenbaum," though this may be only coincidence. It's possible Nagell wrote to Greenstein as he had few friends after incarceration, and Greenstein was an innocent who wanted to know what put Nagell away.. "Snerd" the "illegitimate son" of Castro, "reborn as Terd" after the assassination? Who dat? The most common association of the name "Snerd" was "Mortimer Snerd," a ventriloquist's dummy created by Edgar Bergen, which Nagell would have been aware of from period TV appearances. I think "Snerd" was also a cognomen for "idiot" (it may be the linguistic ancestor of today's "nerd.") Some perspicacious researcher should be able to trace "Greenbaum" by deciphering his espionage hijinks as detailed in the letter. "House on 92nd street" refers to a wartime Nazi spy ring bust, supposedly involving nuclear secrets, fictionalized in a famous movie of the same title. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037795/ Note how Nagell obliquely works former Nazis into the letter as a "lead," using the release of old Fuhrer recordings on LP. P. S. - Another Lincoln number is 5, as in five-dollar bill.

Was Nagell able to get the Che capture news on time while incarcerated? Does anybody have any good guesses on who "Abe Greenbaum" and "Snerd" were?

Well, you're right that Gitmo doesn't get discussed much. Maybe the long form research would begin with reading the newspaper coverage and the JCS documents from the time Batista fled on forward to the Johnson administration. In the 1970s, we financed a CIA-influenced election in Jamaica to keep that island accessible to US and British military and intelligence, so in the 1960s the loss of Gitmo to a Soviet-backed nationalist would surely have been a casus belli, The intel precautions must have been considerable.

Wha?

There's a lot of period video on YouTube covering the "Paul is dead" thing, and if you just evaluate the material disseminated in the late 1960s, it seems clear that the rumor and the "clues" are coming from within the Beatles' camp. I suspect it expressed some sardonic resentment of showbiz.

Thank you, Larry. So he was a free-wheeler under the Commission and didn't owe allegiance to any Mob family or city gang, such as Los Angeles or Chicago?

Essentially, yes - though I would call it the "conscientious investigator" stance. It's hard to imagine Dulles leaving himself wide open to anything, One could compare his interjection here to other times he brought up a specific question and see if his questions open an issue or close it. I suspect it's the latter. Throat wound by the necktie knot? Gosh, JFK wore his necktie on the front of his shirt. Where was the entrance for that, doctor? Don't want the public to be confused.

he was very much like John Roselli Larry, I'd love to read your capsule portrait of "Colonel" Roselli. Most Roselli accounts have a hard time separating him from run-of-the-mill wiseguys and from the flash of his Vegas-Hollywood years. What made this guy special to the CIA and military?

Larry, please keep on "do[ing] it again." With the JFK case witnesses, or "witnesses," as with people at the fringes of so many tragic, public events, human nature of one kind or another becomes the deciding factor in credibility.

I dunno. Dulles had to be aware of the basic attorney's adage to never bring up a question that you can't answer yourself. I'm thinking that he knew that there was no way of definitively citing the throat would as an entrance, and Carrico's answer that the wound was about where the necktie knot would be prompted Dulles to ask his question, so Carrico would say he couldn't specify the entrance point. So Dulles may not have slipped, nor gambled.

Wonder if Gerald Posner also used to charge and get paid fees for his appearances. Same with Vincent Bugliosi? Oh, hell yes. Bugliosi had Helter Skelter and the Manson prosecution behind him, so you can imagine what fees his assassination book commanded. Posner with the best-selling dissenting view to the CTers, vigorously praised in the major papers? Imagine what people paid to have their fears relieved by such a handsome, mustachioed authority, endorsed by the New York Times

"Primo Levi, taught me to weep and moan..." -- Led Zeppelin, "When the Levi Breaks" I agree, Kathy - not easy to confront these things when one wishes for peace. I think of the Levi I've read every time I hear that song on the radio. If I'm skirting disrepectfulness. at least I'm keeping a witness's memory alive in my mind.

"Homosexual thrill-killing" seems like a period district attorney's initial, knee-jerk reaction, probably fostered by the NOLA atmosphere he had to deal with in ordinary homicide cases. Thankfully, the demonstrable presence and pressure of CIA lead Garrison to understand in context the mutable roles homosexuals play in intelligence. Big Jim had a lot to deal with, locally and globally; how non-confused can we expect him to have been, in a developmental process that was attacked and subverted at every turn.

Spoke English on their first meeting*, and only that thereafter? I had thought we were going with a bilingual-model defector. The geographical coincidence is still interesting - though "Baltic" takes in a lot of Eastern geography. +++ *Listen, I've chatted up foreign women, and believe me, one goes all-out with what little one knows, hoping for cute-puppy points. I doubt that spies are immune to this, despite ulterior motives.

Well, on the speaking trail, $10K is a relatively low rate for a historical witness and published author, however we feel about him (which has changed from season to season). It reflects the venues and organizations he wants to attract. On the other hand, at the end of his life Laurence Olivier appeared in one crap film after another for big money, not because he needed the work or because his health permitted, but because he had multiple heirs to provide for. In Hill's case, there's primarily L***.

somewhat of a Polish accent Geographically, that may align with the Russian report of a defector Oswald who spoke with a "Baltic" accent.

I am glad my poverty is justified by statistics. I had thought society was meant to progress with time, and my standard of living to improve. I am fortunate and grateful to be disabused of that notion. I love Big Brother.

Please move to different Forum area after proper period of outrage over defense contracting, war profiteering, black budgets, slashed assistance benefits, etc. Federal Tax More than Doubled since JFK Admin. That's per person in US, not per taxpayer: http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/opinion-heres-the-tax-scandal-every-american-should-be-outraged-over/ar-BBBPFPw?li=BBnb7Kz

Do you believe this bullet is CE399?