Bernice Moore

and it is not even large enough to be a door stop, come summer...at least the BUGS is... b

You know Douglas, this article is fair game, i suppose, it is the latest news, but I did wonder who would break their neck to get it posted first......you won......as you have previously.....b

a past post by Jim DiEugenio... Having written a book on this subject, and done much archival research on it, and edited an academic journal that did much writing about New Orleans and Garrison, and been asked by Stone to do a thirty minute AV essay for his film on the new documents on the subject, just how off was Stone? 1. Garrison commissioned an investigation of the Kennedy case the day of the assassination. TRUE 2. Ferrie's name came up. TRUE 3. Ferrie was called in for an interview and gave some strange replies. TRUE 4. Garrison referred Ferrie to the FBI. And the FBI not only let him go without batting an eyelash, they then announced it was not their idea to interview him. If you can believe it, the above is TRUE. 5. The WC was then appointed by LBJ with some very strange people involved like Dulles, McCloy and Ford. They issued a cover up which JG did not buy. TRUE. 6. Garrison's interest was later revived. PARTLY TRUE. The latest evidence here says that he never really completely lost interest. 7. Garrison discovered that Oswald was not really a communist, partly through the 544 Camp Street address on his flyers. And partly through Martin's animus toward Banister striking him. TRUE 8. Garrison then discovered the morass that was Banister's office, and that it was a cover for anti Castro activities and the CIA. TRUE 9. Garrison then discovered that the mysterious Bertrand character was Clay Shaw. TRUE. (And by the way, the FBI knew this was so way back in 1963 and they covered it up deliberately to make Garrison look bad.) 10. Garrison's office was wired for sound. TRUE. (What the film does not reveal is that this was done twice. Once by Gordon Novel working with Walter Sheridan, and once by the FBI.) 11. Ferrie died under mysterious circumstances while he was on the verge of cracking and right before JG was going to arrest him. TRUE 12. Garrison met with a mysterious character who told him about the secret Cuba and VIetnam operations as a motive for killing Kennedy. PARTLY TRUE. Garrison did meet with Nagell in NYC, and he told him about the Cuban angle. At the time of his inquiry a professor from Ohio University wrote him a 25 page handwritten letter about Kennedy's intent to withdraw from Vietnam and how this was likely a reason for his murder. JG did adopt this position at the time. Garrison did not actually meet Prouty until well after the trial of Clay Shaw. 13. Garrison called in Shaw for questioning and Shaw gave some rather equivocal answers. TRUE. 14. While preparing for the SHaw trial, Garrison's office was infiltrated and his progress was fouled up and many attempts were made to smear him personally. TRUE. But very much understated in the film. This covert aspect has now been partially declassified as one of the most important works of the ARRB. THe infiltration of JG's office began way before what is depicted in the film. It actually began with CIA heavy Bernardo De Torres walking into Garrison's office in late 1966 and offering to help his inquiry with former JM WAVE Cubans in Miami. A couple of months later, within 24 hours of Ferrie's death, del Valle ends up dead also, his body cut up gangland style right near De Torres' apartment. Needless to say, Ferrie and del Valle worked together and De Torres then split. 15. The media made numerous attempts to smear Garrison. TRUE. But again, understated in the film. We know today that Sheridan was actually in contact with the CIA during the making of his infamous special. We know today that NBC, at the highest levels, cleared SHeridan to do all kinds of unethical things in order to produce his hit job. This means bribing and intimidating witnesses, tailing them at all hours of the day and night, even to church on Sundays. Threatening their livliehoods by contacting their employers and also threatening them with IRS audits. We also know that Sheridan was getting a black budget through a CIA law firm in New Orleans in order to pay infiltrators like Novel. We also know that the Life Magazine special issue on the Mafia was done in part to smear Garrison with the Mob brush and that it was worked on by FBI asset Sandy Smith, Billings, and Blakey. 16. The Paines were suspicious characters who aided the cover up. TRUE. But again very understated. Today its almost overwhelming they were undercover surveillance agents at the time and later. And they willingly participated in the cover up. (IMO at the request of Allen Dulles through his former employee and paramour Mary Bancroft.) 17. George DeM introduced Oswald to the rather odd WHite RUssian community. TRUE. WHat the film leaves out is that it was a the request of the local CIA station chief. 18. Garrison took Shaw to trial even though some in his office resisted it to the point of helping the other side. TRUE 19. Shaw was seen with Ferrie and Oswald in CLinton -Jackson. TRUE. Today there are dozens of witnesses to this and even a picture was discovered. 20. Shaw was taken to trial and Garrison played a part in the proceedings. PARTLY TRUE. Garrison did examine some witnesses and he did deliver a summation. But two assistants handled most of it since Garrison was very sick with Hong Kong FLu and a back injury. 21. Pierre Finck testified at Shaw's trial and blew open the military role in controlling the autopsy. TRUE. Though underplayed. 22. Garrison thought of calling a barmaid at Ruby's who saw Ferrie there with Oswald. NOT TRUE. 23. Willie O'Keefe was a witness for Garrison. PARTLY TRUE. This was a composite character made up of actual testimony from Dave Logan, Ray Broshears and Perry Russo. The scene where O'Keefe is introduced at a prison is based on the Alcock interview with Logan. 24. Clay Shaw had a wild gay sex life. TRUE. But I wish it had not been depicted in the film. 25. Shaw was acquitted and Garrison ran for office again and won. TRUE. But simplistic. The CIA was so angry at Garrison for bringing Shaw to trial that they plotted with local allies on the ground to recruit Harry Connick, a Justice Dept lawyer who had worked on Shaw's defense. They then brought phony charges against him, timed with a later election so even though Garrison was acquitted, it created such a distraction that Connick won. As part of his Faustian deal, Connick then began to incinerate Garrison's files left behind, and even grand jury records. Gary Raymond did not follow instructions so we have some grand jury records. Peter, the Dave Reitzes stuff doesn't fly here. http://educationforu...pic=18051&st=15

FWIW i thought I had read more than once that the book on the movie ''JFK'' was all documented and that the information contained in the book is and was presented the same as in the movie or closely.....so if all was is documented how could Dear Todd be upset with or at anyone or anything...in relation to the movie....???? I must get that book dug out. below is a photo from the movie ''jfk'',,from a past robin post.. ...b

BETTER RED THAN DEAD; Jefferson Morley http://www.salon.com/2012/02/20/jfk_better_red_than_dead/

David, this gif of Bronson was created by Robin.....fyi..b it is too large to upload , sorry bout that....i tried again and it appears to have taken...fwiw..click on photo for it to move...b

Ralph Albertazzie

Your very welcome, i have no date for that clipping but will have a look within the front pages of the newspapers i have downloaded, it just may be there, if so i will get back to you and post it, if not then i will not have had any luck..take care,,,b

a few more and a couple of links and that's about it Paul..........fwtaw..b testimony of General Walker.....there are some w/c photo links within of his backyard and home i believe... http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/walker_e.htm and http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/199/toomanyquestionspage1.jpg/ peter worthington's interview with general walker..

fwtaw,,b

i lost my post darn it.......paul here is a copy out of the shooting at walker, but not the newspaper clipping.....i have never come upon many clippings on him, some photos but not much else, fwtaw......b Here is a transcript of the report of the Dallas Morning News on the=20 attempt on General Edwin Walker's life in April 1963. The report is=20 from the front page of the 11 April, 1963 edition of the DMN:=20 QUOTE ON:=20 CLOSE CALL=20 Rifleman Takes Shot at Walker=20 by Eddie Hughes=20 A gunman with a high powered rifle tried to kill former Major General=20 Edwin Walker at his home Wednesday night, police said, and missed the=20 controversial crusader by less than an inch. Walker was working on his=20 income tax at 9:30 p.m. when the bullet, identified as a 30.06 crashed=20 through a rear window and slammed though a wall next to him. Police=20 said a slight movement by Walker apparently saved his life. 'Some one=20 had a perfect bead on him,'said Detective Ira Van Cleave, 'Whoever it=20 was certainly wanted to kill him.'=20 "Walker dug out several fragments of the shell's jacket from his right=20 sleeve and was still shaking glass and slivers of the bullet out of=20 his hair when reporters arrived. Walker said he returned to his Dallas=20 home Monday after an extensive coast-to-coast crusade which he called=20 'Midnight Alert.' It was on Monday night that one of his assistants=20 noticed a late modeled unlicenced car parked without lights in the=20 alley behind the Walker house at 4011 Turtle Creek. The car remained=20 there for about 30 minutes while several occupants once walked up to=20 the back door to look in, then left. Asked if he had any idea who shot=20 at him, Walker replied: 'There are plenty of people on the other side.=20 You don't have to go overseas to earn a Purple Heart. I've been saying=20 the front was right here at home. When I saw the hole in the wall I=20 went upstairs and got my gun, then went outside to take a look. I=20 didn't see anybody so I went back in the house and notified police."=20 QUOTE OFF=20 If anyone is able to provide a scan of the actual article, or point to=20 a pdf version of it on line, I would be most appreciative. Thanks! :-)=20 Regards,=20 Tim Brennan=20 Sydney, Australia=20 *Newsgroup(s) Commentator*=20

b.

hi dave, in melanson's the hidden history of secret service......he places 445 police, and 28 secret service on watch..in dallas..b

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/16th_Issue/misc.html Wired An original roll of Associated Press "wire copy" detailing breaking developments in the John F. Kennedy assassination was auctioned off for $10,000 this past March.The roll was purchased by Judi Kaller, who says she will exhibit it in her antiquities shop, located in a Macy's store in Manhattan. The wire copy --- a press term for articles and information transmitted by telex to subscriber news organizations --- was offered for sale by 55-year-old Donald Zammit, who said he found it among his late father's personal effects. The assassination wire copy consists of about seven feet of teletype paper.............b..

Thank you Robin, very well done.......b

There my be further information within this older thread...b http://educationforu...?showtopic=6017 ****************************** FLOOR LAYING CREW: On the day of the assassination ,six employees of the TSBD were laying a new tile floor. According to witness Bonnie Ray Williams , the crew consisted of himself: Billy Lovelady, Harold Norman, Charles Givens, William Shelley, and Danny Arce. "The Assassination"..Benson..p 85..b<div><br></div><div><br> <div>One more of William Weston's.......mentioned are the weapons that LHO had perhaps purposely ordered.. https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=48712&relPageId=4

Bill the link is not working, perhaps you could check with that Gary fella.thanks..b

Good thread thanks much fellas, for the information.if of any interest here is , it says the report from Altgens,FWIW.. but i cannot see a time, perhaps i am missing it..?? bSome may be interested in this site...thanks b http://www.stevenkasher.com/html/artistresults.asp?artist=147&testing=true&offset=18

On another issue, is anyone aware of a blueprint or scaled drawing of the first floor of the TSBD? So far, all I have been able to find is a PDF Graphic. (edited for clarity, rh) link to fbi booklet showing floor plans etc...if of any use... http://www.maryferre...896&relPageId=2

It's ok, your ok, we're ALL ok..carry on......

There is another older thread on CE 900 here that some may be interested in, ta b.... http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8321

First off, i believe finding the names of the lettered witnesses in weigman was accomplished on the Lancer Forum, some time back...i have found some older posted information from an old thread at Rich's Forum, some years back about the TSBD doorway research, i hesitated to post it, but i believe there is information within that will or may, answer some of the other members questions, that have been asked, so not to throw more fuel on the fire or water to squelch, whichever way one looks at it, here is the info..for whatever it iw... the bell enlargement is posted below of the tsbd entranceway.i think it was Mr.Groden's findings re the doorway, that he used the Bell photo for his studies.... b I believe these lists below are somewhat different than yours Pat....b Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:50 PM Subject: Doorway 1: Shelley:William (Steps):.. Manager of the Depository, (Oswald's immediate supervisor)and (part of the floor laying crew that day ) testified that he was on the top landing of the entrance watching the motorcade when he heard the shots: 6: Davis: Mrs.Charles Thomas ( Avery): (Steps).....was standing on the steps of the Depository, where she worked, when she heard "three explosions" 9: Williams;Otis Neville,(Steps):.. Book Depository's credit manager, who was standing on the steps of the building when the assassination occurred. told the FBI that he heard. 11: Billy Lovelady: (Steps):...an employee of the Depository,( had been assigned to lay plywood flooring on the sixth floor that day.."Crossfire"..Marrs)....who at the time of the assassination was standing on the steps at the entrance to the building, was questioned by the Commission Counsel Joseph Ball: 13: Frazier; Buell Wesley ( Steps):...the Depository employee who had driven Oswald to work that morning, was standing on the steps of the Depository building. He=20 14: Molina: Joseph Rodriquez: ( Steps) :...was standing on the steps of the Depository building. He was interviewed by the Commission "None of the TSBD employees who thought the shots came from elsewhere other than their building were called as a Warren Commission Witness"... "Crossfire".....Jim Marrs... ******************************** THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY......Nov. 22.1963 Witnesses In or Immediately Outside the Depository.... 1: Shelley:William (Steps):.. Manager of the Depository, (Oswald's immediate supervisor)and (part of the floor laying crew that day ) testified that he was on the top landing of the entrance watching the motorcade when he heard the shots: Ball: " What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound.?" Shelley:" Sounded like it came from the West."...VOL.V1, 328-9. "also: WC:.. "something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together." He then ran with Lovelady across a small street in front of the Depository to the North curb of Elm, then down towards the railroad yards where people were converging..."Crossfire"..Marrs..p.46 The Oswald "nest" was directly over Shelley's head.To the West of his position is the Grassy Knoll area. ( Shelley told the FBI that TSBD employee and Oswald look-a-like Billy Lovelady was seated on the steps in front of him at the time of the shooting . Oswald upon being questioned by the DPD after his arrest, reportedly said he encountered Shelley just outside the Depository after the shooting. According to the official version of Oswald's statements, Oswald said he then went home because Shelley told him there would be no more work that day.Shelley denied this,but admitted to being in the right place for this to have occurred.).."The JFK Assassination." Benson..p.236. 2: Truly: Roy Sansom... Superintendant of the Depository, was standing in front of the building , a little West..at the time of the shots... He joined a policeman, Marrion Baker, and showed him the way to the top of the Depository. Com.Council David Belin: "Where did you think the shots came from?" Truly:" I thought the shots came from the vicinity (of) the railroad or the WPA project.(pergola or pavillion on the Knoll) , behind the WPA project West of the building ." Belin:" Did you have any conversation with the officer (Baker: Marrion L.)...about where you thought the shots came from?" Truly: I said " ... I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building ."... Vol.111, 227. "Truly said after the initial explosion,( he thought it was a firecracker or toy cannon) everything seemed frozen...Then there were two more explosions, and he realized that shots were being fired....He saw the President's car come to a complete stop"...."Crossfire". Marrs...p.27. "Truly saw Oswald about 90 seconds after the shooting on the Depository's second floor calmly drinking a coke....Truly says it was he who first noticed that Oswald was absent and drew that to the attention of the police."The JFK Assassination.".Benson...p.268 3: Campbell: Ochus Virgil: ...Vice President of the Depository, was standing next to Truly in front of the building. He gave an affidavit to the FBI. "...I heard shots being fired from a point which I thought was near the railroad tracks located over the viaduct on Elm Street"..VOL. XX11, 638. 4: Wilson; Steven F. ...Vice President of a textbook publishing company, watched from his corner office on the third floor of the Depository ---three floors directly beneath the Oswald ":nest". Wilson said in an FBI affidavit: "At that time it seemed the shots came from the West end of the building or from the colonade located on Elm Street across from the West end of out building . The shots really did not sound like they came from above me."... VOL; XX11, 685. He said he heard three shots and that the entire shooting sequence took = less than five seconds... After making these statements above , to the FBI on March 25/64 Wilson = was visited repeatedly by the FBI ."I couldn't get any work done.They = were always there ."......he said. He refused to change his statement = and was not called as a WC..witness. ."JFK Assassination" Benson. 5: Hopson: Mrs.Alvin ( Mary Madeline)..Employee : was looking out of a = fourth floor window on the South side of the Depository,( the window = would not open.).. facing on Elm Street, during the assassination. = Although she was never called by the WC, she was questioned by the FBI, which reported: "She stated that it did not sound to her like the sounds were coming from her building ....She stated she thought they had been set off on the street below, and she saw people on the street running toward the underpass and the railroad tracks." ... VOL; XX1V, 521. 6: Davis: Mrs.Charles Thomas ( Avery): (Steps).....was standing on the steps of the Depository, where she worked, when she heard "three explosions". She told the FBI, "I did not know from which direction the shots had come, but thought they were from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street West from where I was standing." ..VOL; XX11, 642. 7: Garner: Dorothy Ann .. was watching the motorcade from a fourth floor window in the Depository when she heard the shots. She said in an FBI affidavit, "I thought at the time the shots or reports came from a point to the West of the building." ...VOL; XX11, 648. 8: Kounas: Mrs.George Andrew (Dolores Arlene). was outside the Depository, her place of employment,standing near South West corner.. when she heard gunfire. She told the FBI: "Although I was across the street from the Depository building and was looking in the direction of the building as the motorcade passed and following the shots. I did not look up at the building as I had thought the shots came from a westerly direction in the vicinity of the viaduct."... VOL; XX11, 659. 9: Williams;Otis Neville,(Steps):.. Book Depository's credit manager, who was standing on the steps of the building when the assassination occurred. told the FBI that he heard. " three loud blasts" and that " I thought these blasts or shots came from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street." VOL; XX11, 683. 10: Adams;Victoria Elizabeth ..was watching from a pair of windows on the fourth floor of the Book Depository, where she worked. The alleged assassin's window was two floors above her and to her left : The Grassy Knoll was below and to her right. Testifying about the source of the shots, she said.=20 "....It seemed as if it came from the right below, rather than from the left above..".VOL; VI, 338. 11: Billy Lovelady: (Steps):...an employee of the Depository,( had been assigned to lay plywood flooring on the sixth floor that day.."Crossfire"..Marrs)....who at the time of the assassination was standing on the steps at the entrance to the building, was questioned by the Commission Counsel Joseph Ball: Ball:.."Where was the direction of the sound?" Lovelady:.."Right there areound that concrete little deal on that knoll..." Ball:..."How did you happen to go down there.?" Lovelady..."because everybody was running...toward that way: everybody thought it was coming from that direction."...VOL: V1,338-9. Lovelady told the FBI, " I did not at any time believe the shots had come from the Texas School Depository Building." ..VOL:XX11, 662. 12: Arce; Danny Garcia ...Employee..part of floor laying crew..who was standing in front of the Depository, near Truly and Campbell.where he worked, he testified:=20 "I thought (the shots) came from the railroad tracks to the West of the Texas School Depository ."..VOL:V!, 365. 13: Frazier; Buell Wesley ( Steps):...the Depository employee who had driven Oswald to work that morning, was standing on the steps of the Depository building. He testified: "Well to be frank with you I thought it came from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there"..VOL:11, 234. 14: Molina: Joseph Rodriquez: ( Steps) :...was standing on the steps of the Depository building. He was interviewed by the Commission: Ball:..."Where---what was the source of this sound.?" Molina:..."sort of kind of came from the West side.....I didn't want to think what was happening ....but I wanted to find out so I went down there to where the grassy slope is..."...VOL:V1, 371-2. 15: Baker: Mrs.Donald , "Virgie" (nee Rachley)..TSBD bookeeper... who had been standing at the South-Western corner of the Depository----at the end of the building nearest the Grassy Knoll---testified that she heard shots after the President's car passed the building. Liebeler:.."Did you have any idea where they were coming from?." Mrs.Baker.." Well, the way it sounded...there was a railroad track that runs behind the building...so I guess it would be by the underpass....as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza.." Liebeler:.."And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there....immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street....and is that where you thought the shots came from.?" Mrs.Baker: "Yes."...VOL;.V11, 510-1 16: Jarman James Jr:."Junior"..a Depository employee, ( floor laying crew) was on the fifth floor of the building ( one floor below the "snipers nest") watching the motorcade from the Southeast windows.( Photos of the Depository taken seconds after the shooting show Jarman's two friends looking out the windows, but Jarman is nowhere to be seen.).. He thought the shots came from below, near the motorcade..VOL:111, 204. Jarman was standing with two other employees, Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman, both of whom testified that they heard shots from above them. Upon hearing the shots however, the immediate reaction of all three men was to run to the West side of the building, not upstairs. "We saw the policeman and people running....There are some tracks on the West side of the building, railroad tracks. They were running towards that way and so we all ran that way."...VOL:111, 175. 17: Bonnie Ray Williams:..(floor laying crew ) was later questioned by Commissioner Gerald Ford: Ford:.." Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor ?". Williams: "I really don't know. We just never did think about it."..VOL:.III, 177. ************************** Also: Information from "The Assassinations: Dallas and Beyond." Scott:Hoch:& Stetler.. ************************** "Many Depository employees went outside to view the motorcade. Most of them signed reports to the FBI during March 1964..Oddly, the reports all begin to sound alike in that the agents apparently never asked critical questions such as "Where did the shots come from?"..."How many shots?"...or "Did you see the effect of any shot?'... As the evidence quickly piled up against Oswald and the Depository became the center of the investigation, the authorities, news media, and public soon forgot the initial focus of attention in Dealey Plaza---the Triple Underpass..(area)..."Crossfire" Jim Marrs.. ****************************** FLOOR LAYING CREW: On the day of the assassination ,six employees of the TSBD were laying a new tile floor. According to witness Bonnie Ray Williams , the crew consisted of himself: Billy Lovelady, Harold Norman, Charles Givens, William Shelley, and Danny Arce. "The Assassination"..Benson..p 85.. ***************************** MISSING FROM ROLL CALL AT THE TSBD.. Jack Charles Cason - President of School Book Depositary - left the building at 12:10 p.m. and went home. (VOL:22:P = 640) Gloria Jean Holt - clerk at TSBD - did not return after shooting. (VOL:19:P.526) (VOL:22:P.652) Sharon Simmons Nelson, Secretary, (VOL:19:P.256;VOL: 22-P.665) did not return. Bonnie Richey, Secretary, (VOL22:P.671) did not return. Carolyn Arnold (VOL:22:P.635) did not return. Mrs. Donald Baker, Clerk, did not return (VOL:22:P.635) Judy Marie Johnson (VOL22:P.256) did not return. Mrs. Stella Mae Jacob (VOL:22:P.665) did not return. Charles Givens did not come back. Virginia H. Brnum - McGraw-Hill employee does not return (VOL:22:P.636) Vida Lee Whatley, Clerk, does not return.(VOL:22:P.680) Warren Caster (VOL;22:P.641;VOL 26:P.738) eating lunch in Denton. Spauldin "Pud" Jones (VOL:22:P.658) eating lunch at Blue Front with Herbert Junker (another McMillan employee) (22:659) Mrs. Helen Palmer, clerk, (VOL:22:P.666) not present was at Love Field. Franklin Kaiser - was absent from work on 11/22.(VOL:6:P.342), (VOL:23:P.751)=20 Vicki Davis, employee, was absent. Dottie Lovelady, employee, was absent. Mrs. Rudell Parsons, employee, was absent. Joe Bergen, Scott Foresman, absent. Maury Brown, McGraw-Hill, absent. John Langston, absent. Now how did Truly take an accurate roll call? People on floors: 7th - 0=20 6th - 1=20 5th - 4=20 4th - 8=20 3rd - 4=20 2nd - 2=20 1st - 3 Martha Moyer. ************************* FINGERPRINTS TAKEN OF EMPLOYEES TSBD. FBI : June 15..1964. Daniel Garcia Arce..................Roy Nolan Lovelady Jack Edwin Dougherty............Eddie Piper Buell Wesley Frazier...............William Hoyt Shelley Charles Douglas Given............Troy Eugene West James Earl Jarman Jr...............Bonnie Ray Williams Frankie Kaiser.........................Roy Edward Lewis WC: VOL: XXIV...P.7 ************************* b Bell moved getting down from the wall, and stood at this end of the peristyle, here is the Bell photo of the TSBD, entranceway. .This is what he filmed, from a distance away..the entranceway from Trask's information on the Bell film.."POTP"..I have not come across much, and that is another reason which does make people curious..From Gary Shaws "Cover-Up" 76 & 92... page 41.."Lovelady likewise told independant researcher Jones Harris ( who specialzes in photographic aspects of the President's murder) that on Nov.22 he was wearing a red and white striped shirt buttoned near the neck.WC XXII H 794.***************WXXII page 794.. Hearings=20New York Herald Tribune...Article May 24/64.. "Ten days ago, still brooding over the picture Jones Harris flew to Dallas, met with Lovelady and talked to him for about quarter of and hour. Lovelady told him yes, it was he standing in the doorway.. Lovelady also told him that the FBI has taken several pictires of him , presumably to compare with the AP picture of the assassination scene. Lovelady also said that on November 22 he was wearing a red -and-white striped sports shirt buttoned near the neck..".. http://history-matte...Vol22_0412b.htm B.. Ron, Isn't it important to know for sure who is in the doorway since if it is = Oswald the WC case falls apart? Why would we question the integrity of = anyone that is trying to make sure we know, including how Groden arrived = at his conclusions? In this thread none of us knew the details. Now we = know alot more. But Groden doesn't have the best track record so why = should we take his word for it if we haven't actually seen what he claims to have produced with his method.I talked to David Wrone last night for a few minutes and he is adamant that LHO is in the doorway. He said he and Weisberg used a jeweller's loop to magnify Altgens. He is convinced that after examining the shirt = in the archives, in Altgens and the DPD they are the same. He doesn't = believe LHO changed shirts at his rooming house.Wrone said Hal Verb is in the process of talking to all the people in = the Martin/Hughes frames to clarify who saw who in the doorway. He = thinks LHO popped into the doorway from the 1st floor just as the = motorcade had passed (Altgens) and then immediately went up to the 2nd. = He says he doesn't think Lovelady could have gotten into the doorway = from his sitting positon while eating because of the way witnesses = describe the time frame. He thinks Lovelady had one second to get into = the doorway and that wasn't physically possible. Of course he also = mentioned Lovelady's descrepant testimony about where he went in the = minute after the assass........G. http://www.jfkresearch.com/forum/iAll Wrone has in the book is the Altgen's photo, John Martin's Lovelady photo and Robert Richter's (FBI) posed Lovelady photo. It is Wrone's 8 pg. detailed desc. of the discovery of LHO's shirt in the doorway matching the shirt he wears during interogation. Wrone uses a first generation Altgen's photo and then magnifies it right down to the stretched buttonholes which prevent it from being buttoned all the way up. I can't type fast enough to get it all to you Jack, at least not tonight. If Ron or someone can scan in the 8 pgs. I think you will be impressed even with whatever else we may disagree with Wrone about. He draws heavily on H. Weisburgs research also. When I asked a couple of weeks back if we could say the Altgen's photo was maybe the most important single picture taken of the assassination I was thinking of the Daltex shooter, LHO in the doorway and the hole in the windshield all being seen in the photo. Here is some information on Lovelady in an old post, by Dr.J.J... FYI... Lovelady's Long Sleeve Shirt The Loveladys had fled Dallas to escape harassment. They had received letters and phone calls from every state in the union and from foreign countries as well. Billy went into the trucking business in Denver, Colorado. The Loveladys were living in Denver in 1976 when the House Select Committee on Assassinations began their investigation. The HSCA sent Robert Groden to interview Billy Lovelady and to take photographs of him wearing the long sleeve shirt that is allegedly the one seen in the Altgens photograph. The Loveladys had purchased the shirt for 59 cents at a Salvation Army flea market; Conversation with Gary Mack at Sixth Floor Museum office 8/29/96 years later Patricia Lovelady would telephone author/researcher Harlold Weisberg and try to sell him the shirt for $5,000. Letter to author from Mr. Weisberg, 5/14/94 Billy Lovelady died on Sunday, January 14, 1979 of an apparent heart attack. Although he was only 41 years old, natural causes were presumed likely and his death prompted no autopsy. . "Oswald look-alike, 41, dies," Dallas Times Herald, 1-18-79, p. 1-B When James Altgens delivered copies of his famous photo to Mrs. Lovelady, he asked her why they were being so secretive. She said, "Well, I'll tell you, we've been run out of so many places where we have lived, and it's because of that shirt he was wearing. At this time, I've got it locked up here in the safe at Houghton Mifflin Publishing Company. People break into our home looking for that shirt. We have moved to about five different places, and they find us every time." No More Silence, p. 47 Billy Lovelady had originally stated to the FBI that he was wearing a short sleeve shirt with red and white vertical stripes, buttoned to the neck. He later claimed to be wearing the shirt in this photograph, a shirt with a block pattern as bold as the pattern formed by the brick wall in the background. Robert Groden claims that he can see the large block pattern of Lovelady's shirt in the Altgens photo of the man in the doorway, although the image is too faint to be transferred to paper. Groden once believed that it was Oswald in the doorway, but he now is convinced that it is Lovelady. Note that this shirt is apparently constructed of a heavier material than Oswald's, and does not hang open loosely. Note also that the shirt does not have a pocket. Does Billy Lovelady really resemble Oswald that much? One FBI report states: Mr. Lovelady stated his close resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald has become somewhat embarrassing. He stated his stepchildren, Timmy Ekstedt, age 6, and step-daughter, Angela Ekstedt, age 4, were watching television shortly after the assassination at a time when Lee Harvey Oswald was shown while in custody of the Dallas Police Department and both of these children remarked that they thought their daddy was on television referring to his close resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald. It is alleged that Oswald and Lovelady could be confused by people who were not acquainted with the pair. One newspaper reported: Yet ironically, there are arguments both ways by those who knew them both well. Once Pat [Patricia Lovelady] went to the depository to see her husband and she saw Oswald standing with his back toward her. She called her husband's name. "Oswald turned around and I saw it wasn't Billy. "He told me he thought I had the wrong man but he knew who I wanted. He went and got Billy. "Our children were very young then, and they showed Oswald's picture on television. They pointed to him and said, 'There's Daddy'." On the other hand, Billy tells the story of the day Oswald's mother visited the depository. "It was during the Jack Ruby trial and she was in Dallas. She announced she was going to the depository to see the young man who claimed to be the one standing in the doorway. I was standing at the counter when she came in. She asked me where the young man was and I told her he didn't come to work that day. She turned and walked away." "Oswald look-alike, 41, dies," Dallas Times Herald, 1-18-79.. B........ It is in the HSCA...Appendix to Hearings ..Vol: V1 ...page 298 there is further info and photographs within the pages.. Now it says page 292...but that is an error, it is on page 298..also in this Volume 6..is the comparison of the backyard photos, the rifle, many photos and the info...Milteer, and other interesting information. http://history-matte..._Vol6_0149b.htm B Dr.J.J. is John Johnson..he did much work on the LHO Lovelady doorway research and has some articles archived on the Mary Ferrell site..

this is Jack White's, from the Sat..Evening Post...

Below crop of the Curry Altgens, then below pointing out in another crop some differences...

here is a large lightened Altgens . one pointing out some differences, and a Lovelady comp...thanks b