Larry Hancock

The visit itself is relatively neutral and may even have been a sanctioned counter intelligence action against Odio given her personal connection to Ray and her involvement in efforts to obtain weapons for JURE. However the follow up phone call, which presents Oswald as violent, radical and uncontrollable...possibly a threat to JFK...and personally hostile to JFK...is another story and one more effort to position a more radical and dangerous view of Oswald than simply the political actor we see in New Orleans. It would be very much in line with the McKewon visit which would present him has joining an effort to support Castro style revolution in Central America. If we accept that certain anti-Castro CIA assets were moving into a conspiracy against JFK, buried within normal CIA activities, we have to consider a multiple levels in play - and one of the complexities would be conspiratorial activities carried out under the cover of routine, sanctioned CIA tasks.

Well if they contained his reporting on Lee Oswald from DeMohrenschildt and others in Forth Worth / Dallas they would certainly undermine the "we had no interest in and knew nothing about Lee Oswald" mantra given the WC. Even more interesting might be the routing on those memos disclosing who at headquarters and in other areas of the Agency were being informed on Oswald after his return to the US - or who had requested certain types of follow up on him. Dangerous to National Security, unlikely (although they might indeed reveal some violations of CIA restraints on domestic activity including mail intercepts and other things related to an American citizen inside the U.S.) but potentially damaging to the CIA distancing itself from Oswald....oh yes...

Thanks Ron, but just to preserve my "circumspect" reputation...grin...I should back up and qualify that the cache was almost certainly a false flag by the CIA and specifically Helms - although arguably there is no absolute proof of that. The early suspicions were that it was an effort to frame Castro for continued export of the Cuban revolution - but with what we know now and given the timing and dramatic introduction of the cache to JFK, I suspect it was just one more last minute effort by Helms to sabotage the rapidly emerging JFK/Castro dialog. For background we have this blog post from Bill K: https://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2009/04/venezuelan-arms-cache-northwoods.html

An interesting remark from the McKewon visit - which does not get much notice - was that the two men were wanting to buy a quantity of rifles for a revolution in Central America. At that point in time such revolutions were all being viewed as sponsored by Castro and the CIA was even planting stocks of weapons cached in one country and telling JFK they were evidence of the Cuban revolution being exported - which was a total lie. The point being that if McKewon had reported this or even gone to the media right after the assassination it would have helped sell the story of Oswald as not just a political supporter of the FPCC but elevating him a notch to a level of participation in Cuban revolutionary activities. One way to look at it is that Oswald was being set up to be more radical and even more dangerous following his departuere from New Orleans...something which continued with the Odio visit and subsequent phone call about his being a loose cannon.

We do what we can with what we have - the goal is to get the attention of at least some press, in a time when interest and opinions on the JFK assassination are not going the way most of us here would like. The press in general has very little idea of what has been discovered over the past two decades from the work of the ARRB or even the limited compliance with the JFK Records act. The same goes for the extent to which the CIA and other agencies have stonewalled the effort. To write stories encouraging further work you have to get their attention and give them something concrete to write about. The measure of success will be the extent to which any stories at all appear supporting full records release and further records collection - in other words its about bringing attention to the need for compliance with the law, which Presidents have not been doing and NARA had not had the empowerment to step up to its fully defined role as the successor to the ARRB. If no stories are written then it will be a fail, and several people will have wasted time and money on the effort - there are never any guarantees in press work. Bottom line, its all about reaching the press and generating some support for the legal action, its not a reveal for the JFK community.

Exactly right, the event will be live at nine thirty, if for some reason the live stream does not kick off on Youtube the event is being recorded and will be made available for view later as well. That may take some time but hopefully it will be live with no technical issues at nine thirty Eastern time.

The individual with "Oswald" at McKewons near Galveston was most likely Carlos while both Carlos and Victor (who had worked together that summer, and both been in the New Orleans area) could very well have been the visitors to Odio in Dallas - who said they came from New Orleans.

Its scheduled for nine thirty eastern time at the National Press Club....if you use the link on the Mary Ferrell Foundation web site it should work at that time....hopefully....

Its important for everyone to remember that this is a press conference on JFK assassination related documents ...not some sort of "reveal". Its in support of an effort to push legal action to force document release and new document collection. The goal is to give the press at least one example of what still remains undisclosed (or missing) from the record. Something they might actually write a story about, one with some facts, not just speculation.

David will provide the full scoop on Victor I'm sure...but basically he was a friend and fellow fighter along with Carlos and others from the Cuba Project on. He had actually been on one of the student assassination teams going after Batista administrative leaders during the revolution. If you have SWHT you will find an exploration of Victor in one of the appendices... He trained with Carlos and in 1963 worked with him in the abortive bombing mission staged off the McClaney property outside New Orleans. At one time he was a candidate for the Hernandez with McClaney but I'm pretty comfortable that at this point we have dialed that down to Carlos....the possibility remains that one or both may have been at Odios but I'll leave that to David.

Gerry, its a quandary, there are so many angles - even operational angles - that relate to CIA and FBI pre-knowledge and association with Oswald that its easy to become wrapped up in what you could say, so much so that you quickly lose everyone not intimately familiar with all the aspects of what we have learned in the last two decades. What stands out is that the press conference is targeted to the press, and they want something they can build a story around and enough solid information to put with it to make story simple enough for a column and and credible if not conclusive. Plus we want them convinced to the point that at least some of them would jump in and help with the push for pro-active collection of new materials assuming we do have success with the legal action. Is there need for enough sensation to make a story - sure, but there has to be enough substance to make it real even if its more limited than it deserves (or would please any one of us...grin). -- Larry

Ben, my whole view of Oswald has evolved over the years - I reviewed the present state of it in my Lancer 2022 presentation. One of the reasons for my current thinking was a recent, deep dive into primary sources that I had really not paid sufficient attention to previously - after realizing I had based a lot of thinking and writing on what has been written over the decades in the JFK community. The thing that made most clear to me was that Oswald's thinking, character and personality had remained quite consistent since his teenage years when he applied to the Young Socialists for a membership and to start a chapter. His later experiences in both Japan and Russia certainly refined his view, - as an example he became very negative towards Soviet style communism and even more so towards "nationalistic" thinking and racism. As to whether he was a "witting" asset for either the CIA or the FBI, that is certainly possible. I see signs he was more than willing to act as a source for the FBI and provide information on the ultra right and on anti-Castro military activities in New Orleans. And I think that was what the FBI was protecting in New Orleans. In regard to the CIA, it is quite likely that he may have been "steered" at some points (that would be in line with the "useful idiot" take), and he certainly was a known and of operational value to the Agency. As to his being "witting" and to what extent, I leave that as an open question but if so I see it as being entirely Oswald's own decision and in line with his personal agendas at given points in time - I don't see Oswald simply following orders and bouncing from task to task, that was not his nature. I've reached the stage (somewhat like Oswald) that my contrarian nature is showing and I've become cautious about simply accepting established lines of thinking, even if it comes from "authority". And as I've stated many times, my view of the attack in Dallas only jelled with a final conspiracy (one among many targeting JFK that year) that jelled over a tipping point related to the possibility of an accommodation over Cuba which became very real in September, October, 1963 - which means that whatever went on with Oswald (to my view) and Walker in Dallas had to do with Oswald's personal agenda not anyone else's. Actually I doubt we will ever find common agreement on any of this so I don't necessarily expect anyone to following my line of thinking; I do however find this thread innovative and worth a lot of consideration. Kudos to Greg for bringing the scenario forward for consideration.

I'm pretty sure that is not happening (Judyth and Anna)....but keep in mind, this effort is about document release and document collection. Its about what we know from documents we have gotten in the last two decades, and what leads they give us to other documents and files that exited - as well as who was on what distribution and copy list for the known documents. Which means by now we know a good deal about what still needs to be released and what paper trails existed at the time of the assassination - which opens the door to forcing the issue in terms of either "give it to us now or tell us what happened to it and why you can't". One of the goals of the press conference is to make sure the media knows precisely that and helps keep the legal pressure of the JFK act on both for release and NARA's ongoing collection of JFK records. For reference, Bill Simpich has provided the following - which is not the complete picture of potential collections but something laid out by the ARRB itself for starters: from Bill...The Guidelines for an "ARD" (assassination-related document) were provided by Jeremy Gunn in 1996: Deemed highly relevant - documents with the following names, as an example: Lee Harvey Oswald George de Mohrenschildt Elena Garro de Paz Antonio de Varona Silvia Duran Rolando Cubela CRC Bay of Pigs Castro assassination attempts Warren Commission HSCA Garrison Investigation Staff Preliminary Suggestions to Board: Factors suggesting possible relevance to assassination The obvious rules of thumb - Documents that obviously are related to the assassination. CIA internal investigations, Oswald records, Garrison investigation, Castro assassination attempts Documents falling within certain dates (dates may vary depending on issue) - Dates associated with Oswald - Dates associated with assassination - Dates of Warren Commission - Dates of Church Committee, HSCA investigations Individuals of importance - CIA officials in Mexico City David Phillips Win Scott - CIA officials involved in investigation John Scelso JJ Angleton Geographical relevance - USSR, Cuba, Mexico There was a public hearing on 8/6/96 with Tunheim and two of the CIA officials who created the "sequestered collection" also known as the "segregated collection" - J. Barry Harrelson and John Pereira. The sequestered collection is "those records that were made available to the HSCA during its investigation". It is about 300,000 pages. It is 64 boxes. Boxes 1-34 (Directorate of Operations) - a mix of CIA, third party, and Warren Commission/HSCA material Boxes 35-36 (Inspector General) - HSCA reports, Senate Select Committee reports, Cuban operations, Church Committee Book V final report Boxes 37-38 (Office of the General Counsel) - Cuban exile activities, Garrison investigation, name files Box 39 (Directorate of Science & Technology) - Photo comparisons, of Hunt, Sturgis and the Dallas tramps; chart of frames from Zapruder film Boxes 40-48 (Office of Security) - Name files Boxes 49-63 (Office of Legislative Liaison) - HSCA requests, notes, memos, correspondence and final report, plots against Castro, photos of unknown man, defector study, Nosenko, name files, Mexico City station files, FBI reports, Warren Commission reports Box 64 - 72 reels of microfilm Reels 1-20 - individual 201 files Reels 21-22 - Cuban defector AMMUG-1 Reels 23-25 - DO Project Files, Garrison investigation Reels 26-28 - Cuban exile organizations Reels 28-30 - Office of Personnel files, Mexico City records Reels 31-44 - Oswald files - 201 file is duplicate of hardcopy file Reels 45-47 - Nosenko, Mexico City records Reels 48-49 - CIA-HSCA correspondence, 1967 IG Report, Cuban Mugbook, miscellaneous Reels 50-56 - Individual 201 files (including Cubela) Reels 57-60 - Office of Personnel files Reels 61-62 - Nosenko, Golitsyn, anti-Castro activities Reels 62-71 - Cuban Revolutionary Council and other Cuban exile organizations Reel 72 - Project Files

I would second David and its important to remember that Oswald himself had two very long term personal views (long term for a short life at least, dating back to his teen age years). He was demonstrably socialist and Marxist in his beliefs and worldview but he was also very anti-racist (if you doubt either, read his public statements in Russia and then read the monographs he wrote in 62/63). Both his socialist and anti-racist views show up consistently as well as in 1963, his writings and the speech he gave in early fall were both solidly against radical nationalism and the ultra right. Given that consistency, the thought that he would be "infiltrating" the ultra right in both Dallas (per the statement to Michael Paine) and later in New Orleans would make perfect sense - with the goal of exposing them and their activities (very possibly to the FBI as he was seeking to expose the anti-Castro exiles in NO). Not to mention Marina's snarky "hunter of Fascists" note on the back of the photo left in the records that the DeMohrenschield's had loaned them. Two things that can be said about Oswald was that he marched to his own drummer, and he had no fear about pursuing his beliefs - he also didn't take orders well at all, not in military, not in Russia, not at work back in the US.

Gabriella confirmed that if you sign up for the conference download now, the full conference would be available for download as of December 1. I'll be on the Conference Facebook page routinely during the next three days, hope to see many of you there, Larry

Actually the conference is the download, its not live but prepackaged and streamed according to a schedule. So when you register with the additional feel you have access to streaming it though the end of December, you just do it at your own convenience and not on a one time basis per the scheduled stream. Its also possible that at some point a stand alone download of the conference may be made available after December but there are some issues in doing that as the host for the stream would normally only leave it up and available for the contracted period ie end of December. Making it available on an ongoing basis might well mean an additional hosting charge and I'm pretty sure a special price - if the host will do that. I will check with Gabriella on that and also pass on your specific question in case my understanding is off...

I have no information on his travel records being blocked, we have virtually no travel records for other than a couple of folks I am aware of and those generally were left in personnel files as expense vouchers. For example we do have his record of travel to Florida in April that year but its not really a travel record its an expense voucher. Given his position as COS in Rome I have no idea where his expense vouchers went or if he even filed any. Obviously David may have information on why he thinks the records exist/existed and are being with held....if he has information on that it would be really good to have the details in the event MFF wins its legal action and we can look specifically for them.

As far as I could determine after the book came out and presented that claim, the only support was an anecdotal remark by someone who worked with Harvey in Rome and who ran into Harvey at the airport. As I recall he asked Harvey about his trip and there was a mention about Dallas - which is what he much later related to Talbot. As far as I know the story rests totally on that.

I'd also recommend Tom O'Neill's book Chaos, Charles Manson the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties. I have no idea if it duplicates the Gottlieb material in the biography it surely has some inside information on Gottlieb and his experimentation that was brand new to me. Clearly he should have been somebody's patient rather than a Doctor - and most definitely institutionalized at the same time.

Color me very skeptical in regard to his points 1, 3, 4 and 5.. as far as the FBI and CIA both involved in access to conversations from the embassies, we have known that for a long time....in simple terms the CIA had the agreements to tap and tape the conversations including a relationship with the Mexican president and his security people. It appears the FBI took a simpler, non-equipment approach involving bribes and personal relationships to gain access. Jeff Morley goes into a lot of detail on this in his book on Mexico City and so does Simpich in his monograph on Mexico City. As to Tunheim, what I hate to see are sensational, general statements like the ones he gave without the details that would substantiate them.

Bob I just checked it again and it came up fine...but took quite a bit of time to do so. Perhaps the delay in loading was an issue for you. Not sure I can suggest anything in particular since its not on a site I have anything to do with. http://massinjustice.org/Kennedy 4 22 Search Stripper Kathy K.pdf

Off Topic, but Pat I see you have messages turned off or cannot receive them for some reason. Would you email me at larryjoe@westok.net Thanks

Great Gene, honestly I'm amazed at how much detail David has unearthed in the last couple of years that we could put into those works. Let us know if you have any questions as you go on, message or email. And "exploitation" is an excellent choice of words, more descriptive than what I have been using and I have to say the last few months of my own research revisit to Oswald have blown away the "box" I had mentally build in my mind in regard to Oswald. New sources and an expanded view....then again I suppose that's the way it should be as we get more access to primary data. Hope you enjoy the read! Larry

Gene, have you read either Red Bird Leads One and Two or Tipping Point, David and I cover Carlos and your questions in some detail in both (and how Oswald likely was manipulated..of course that is speculative...grin). And no Oswald was not that naive, however he did have an agenda that exposed him to manipulation by multiple parties at different times. David and I will be doing presentations on what was going on with him and his exposures in 1963 for the Lancer virtual conference...

Gene, David will respond I'm sure but you will find at least one photo of Carlos Hernandez in the Red Bird leads papers...David is looking for more but photos of Carlos, his brother and (unrelated) Victor Hernandez. They are tough to find even though Carlos was associated not only with the CIA Cuba Project and JM/WAVE maritime operations but also with his connections to both DRE and JURE.