Steve Thomas
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Posts posted by Steve Thomas
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10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
I know Lumpkin was near the top of the 488th military intelligence reserves in Dallas in 1963. Was he in Army Intelligence while in the Army?
Ron,
Rather than detract from this thread, I started one on George Lumpkin. Do you want to copy your post over there?
Steve Thomas
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George Lumpkin:
I know that some have claimed that George Lumpkin was a member of Jack Crichton's 488th military intelligence group, but I have not found any first-hand primary source for that; only secondary sources that repeat the same claim over and over. Here's what I do know.
Was a passenger in the JFK motorcade pilot car with George Whitmeyer.
From Brandy, Our Man in Acapulco: The Life and Times of Colonel Frank M. Brandstetter. A Biography by Rodney P. Carlisle and Dominic J. Monetta. University of North Texas Press, 1999.
https://books.google.com/books?id=QLdqgDsVio4C&pg=PA122&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
p. 128. “As was common for Brandy, he received a fine commendation for his work from his commanding officer, at this time, Colonel George Lumpkin....”
“In his civilian life, George Lumpkin was deputy chief of police in the City of Dallas...”
When Jack Crichton was asked by the Dallas Police to find a Russian interpretor for Marina Oswald, Crichton asked George Lumpkin to call Ilya Mamantov. It was George Lumpkin who took command at the TSBD following the assassination and who Roy Truly first told that Lee Harvey Oswald was “missing”.
Headquarters
Department of the Army
26 July 1967
General Orders No. 33
https://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/go6733.pdf
Page 5
V. Legion of Merit. By direction of the President...for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service is awarded to...
Colonel George L. Lumpkin. Intelligence and Security, United States Army, July, 1960 – June, 1967
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:
I have this doc with AUTOBOAT
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/jfk army record %23 194-10003-10411.pdf
Michael,
What an incredible document!
While the From line is blank, the orginator is INSCOM/CSF
INSCOM/CSF
The United States Army Intelligence and Security Command / Counterintelligence Source Files
Compare paragraph 3(e) page3, to paragraph 7(b) page 4.
Ouch!
Steve Thomas
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On 7/2/2018 at 9:29 AM, Larry Hancock said:
A worthwhile question Steve, don't know off the top of my head. However the American Embassy in Havana was under intense pressure and facing expulsion in 1960. Any direct contacts by Veciana would be very dangerous. We do know that earlier when Sturgis offered a Castro assassination plot to the CIA it was channeled though through the Embassy's military attache - none other than David Morales.
Check SWHT 2010 p. 137 for the 1960 Veciana offer memo (the contact crypt is Olien), there is a CIA document on the offer - see RIF 104-10315-10038 Havana to JM/WAVE (I'd forgotten all about that document..sigh).
My thought is that in 1960 Veciana would have to relay such an offer through someone that was in contact with his revolutionary group inside Cuba, and we do know from both Phillip's own book as well as CIA documents that he was indeed in contact with revolutionary groups and coming across talk of killing Castro. That is why I have thought up to this point that the offer did come through Phillips. Another deep cover American asset that could have passed on such talk was Tony Sforza.
Larry,
I know this may be a little simplistic, but what about Frank Brandstetter?
Cryptonym: AMSPICE-1
Definition:
Geraldine Shamma de Carrera aka Geraldine Shamman de Carrera, close colleague of Manuel Artime in 1960.
https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=AMSPICE-1
H. P. Albarelli, Jr., A Secret Order (2013)
This book states that Shamma frequently met in Havana with David Morales and Army Intelligence officer Frank Brandstetter. June Cobb frequently met with them as well.
A Secret Order: Investigating the High Strangeness and Synchronicity in the ...
By H. Albarelli, Jr.
Steve Thomas
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That's a shame.
I'm getting a 404 error now 7/2/18
Steve Thomas
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On 7/1/2018 at 7:39 PM, Michael Clark said:On 7/1/2018 at 7:39 PM, Michael Clark said:
Larry Hancock said, "Anything that shows us who or even what section of the CIA station in Havana that Veciana contacted about assassinating Castro in 1960. That would answer one huge question."
Posted by David Boylan in the Education Forum 7/1/18
Larry,...
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/180-10144-10153.pdf
The other was a Task Force W report from William Harvey himself. He was complaining about Veciana.I'll see if I can locate this.
From page 7 of that pdf:
So, who was the Havana Chief of Station in 1960?
Steve Thomas
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6 hours ago, David Boylan said:
Steve/Ron,
Lots of Colonels in this doc.
http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/180-10104-10394.pdf
David,
There are a lot of references to AUTOBOAT in this document.
Do you have any idea what AUTOBOAT is?
Steve Thomas
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6 hours ago, David Boylan said:
Steve/Ron,
Lots of Colonels in this doc.
http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/180-10104-10394.pdf
David,
I liked this paragraph from page 12 of the pdf file:
"Some discussion of possibly passing info to CIA for their recommendation. This suggestion turned down by Landsdale, who felt CIA, when informed, then took over op. Also in no better position to determine national policy."
Steve Thomas
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9 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
"Run" may be too strong a word, but,
I just ran across an interesting memo from J. Walter Yeagley in the Department of Justice to J. Edgar Hoover dated January 21, 1964.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=147533&search=Sargen#relPageId=2&tab=page
The memo said that “Gutiérrez Menoyo is now a “registered Army source” in the intelligence source registry maintained by the Central Intelligence Agency.”
Wouldn't you like to get your hands on that registry!
I keep going back to the DOD Bartimo Letter of 24 Apr 1964 with Attachments (CD 852).
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11249
Buried in this Memorandum of Understanding is a kind of gentleman's agreement that says, "if you keep your hands off my sources, I'll keep my hands off yours".
The only way that would work is if there is some kind of "intelligence source registry" that one could consult, or; if you don't have one, at least keep some pretty close liaison work going.
(I don't want to derail this thread, but I sort of think that's what happened with the DonnelWhitter/Lawrence Miller/Jack Ruby gun deal that went bad. Ellsworth is running a sting and the local cops and FBI jumped the gun and the whole thing got FUBARed.)
Thanks guys. I need to go read all the documents you guys referenced.
I'll be back in a week or so.
(or two)
Steve Thomas
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"Run" may be too strong a word, but,
I just ran across an interesting memo from J. Walter Yeagley in the Department of Justice to J. Edgar Hoover dated January 21, 1964.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=147533&search=Sargen#relPageId=2&tab=page
In that memo, Yeagley said that there was a plan underway to use Anotonio Veciana, Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo and Andres Nazario Sargen, who was the Secretary General of SNFE Alpha 66 in Miami as U.S. Army intelligence sources. The memo said that “Gutiérrez Menoyo is now a “registered Army source” in the intelligence source registry maintained by the Central Intelligence Agency.” The memo references a “Major Ferris, one of the Army intelligence representatives attending the January 6th conference that their plan had been approved.”
Andrés Nazario Sargén was a founder of Alpha 66 along with other prominent anti-communist fighters such as his older brother Aurelio Nazario, Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo and Antonio Veciana.
In a May 26, 1964 report filed by Wallace Heitman on Manuel Rodriguez Orcacarberro, Heitman recounts an interview he had with Orcarberro on February 10, 1964.https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=221&tab=page
This is CD 1085 pp. 220-221.
At that time, Orcarberro told Heitman that in June, 1963, Andres Nazario Sargen, who was the Secretary of SNFE Alpha 66 in Miami wrote him a letter asking him to attempt to form a local Dallas group of the organization. Orcarberro said he was successful and a full slate of officers had been selected.
Steve Thomas
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On 6/29/2018 at 10:42 AM, Douglas Caddy said:
Bernard Wilds' website of rare JFK research PDFs
http://dealeyplazauk.org.uk/jfkrestore/
I am indebted to Robert Morrow for calling my attention to this valuable research resource.
What stuck me is how fast they load.
It makes reading pdfs a pleasure again.
Steve Thomas
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3 hours ago, Mark Knight said:
Anyone have access to a 1963 city directory for Dallas? Might find Rodriguez's address there, especially if the phone numbers are the same. That would take care of the Huspeth/Elsbeth question.
Mark,
Rodriguez didn't move to Dallas until after June, 1963.
Report of Wallace Heitman dated May 26, 1964 regarding Manuelel Rodriguez Orcarberro.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=219&tab=page
This is CD 1085 page 219.
His report says that Manuel Rodriguez was voluntarily interviewed on February 10th and May 20th, 1964.
On page 2 of Heitman's report (page 220 of CD 1085), it says that “Rodriguez registered as an alien of Dallas, Texas on September 6, 1963, at which time his address was reflected as 1208 Hudspeth Street. His last prior address was listed as listed as 5310 Columbia Street, Dallas.” The report says, “A photograph of Rodriguez appears in this file.”
In a May 26, 1964 report filed by Wallace Heitman it showed the address of Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro to be 2311 Nicholson St. Appt. D in Dallas.
CD 1085 page 220.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=220&tab=page
The following are two different memorandums concerning Rodriguez's May 20 interview:
Wallace Heitman interviewed Manuel Rodriguez on May 20, 1964. Heitman wrote his report on May 25, 1964. a copy of his report is in CD 1085 page 222. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11481&relPageId=222
Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro voluntarily appeared and was interviewed at the office of the FBI in Dallas, Texas.He furnished his home address as 2311 Nicholson Street, Apartment D, home telephone WH 6-8429. He said he was employed at the Curtis Mathes Manufacturing Company, 2220 Young Street, Dallas, Texas.
Wallace Heitman interviewed Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro on May 20, 1964 and wrote a report of his interview on May 25, 1964.
This document is entitled No Title and can be found in FBI - HSCA Subject Files/ FBI - HSCA Subject Files, A - B/ FBI - HSCA Subject File: Osvaldo Aurelio Pino Pino/
During this interview, Rodrigiez gave Heitman the names of the officers of the Dallas Chapter of SNFE Alpha 66. A member of the Board of Directors was Jesus Hernandez, employed by Curtis Mathes.
Another member of the Board of Directors was Pedro E. Prado, also employed by Curtis Mathes.
Another member of the Board of Directors was Celia Navarro, also employed at Curtis Mathes.
Steve Thomas
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14 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:
Very interesting Steve, my guess is that the date is right.....these types of individuals whether they be military like Hoare, Skorzeny, or for that matter people like Werbell were constantly approaching anyone they could think of that would give them connections to the CIA or the services or even the State Department. Not unlike today/s infamous private military contractors both large and small. Its all about networking, who knows you, who remembers you when a job or bid is on the table (open or non contractual). They always have to be marketing their services and selling their expertise...or offering it for free as an opening. Offering information, offering contacts, just staying on the radar...sort of like the music and entertainment industries in NYC and LA and London....same necessity, just lots more weapons and ultimately bloodshed (literally rather than figuratively).
Larry,
The problem with Hoare's letter to Dulles offering his help to the Commission is that's it's dated November 5, 1963. This is before JFK is is even killed, let alone a Commission being formed to investigate it.
Steve Thomas
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6 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:
Not having any luck downloading those black vault files David, how big are they? I get messages saying that server is going down during the downloads.
Mine hangs up too.
Steve Thomas
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8 hours ago, Michael Clark said:
There can’t be much doubt about it. And the value of that commodity appreciates significantly when you add the value of denial to the Block to the value of exploitation by the West.
Michael,
I'm not a geologist, so I don't know why, but it seems to me that uranium deposits are found in close proximity to oil fields.
You see oil companies also involved in uranium extraction.
I know that George DeMohrenschildt was involved with oil discoveries in Rangely, CO.
I used to live in that neck of the woods, and there's uranium deposits there too.
Boy, there's a lot of money involved!
Steve Thomas
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9 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:
So were Smith and Veciana maybe otherwise familiar with Oswald than Veciana's sighting o him with Phillips?
Ron,
I personally think Veciana was aware of Oswald through a different source.
See the Thread in the Education Forum entitled, "Oswald in Miami" here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24646-oswald-in-miami/?tab=comments#comment-370097
Steve Thomas
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12 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:
Specifically to your question, Veciana may indeed have been in Dallas during that general era in time. He did move around a great deal. But the record does not support that specific September timeframe IMO. And I know of no other independent evidence that supports his being there at that time.
W. Tracy,
Thank you. I read somewhere that Veciana said that even though he was not allowed to travel outside of Miami without permission, he sometimes did.
Harold Weisberg showed Mr. and Mrs. Robert Castorr some pictures taken from television footage of a picnic for Cuban exiles at White Rock Lake. The Castorrs said they thought the picnic was in early September. Supposedly the pictures showed someone who resembled Oswald. I was trying to nail down the date.
Steve Thomas
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On 6/29/2018 at 12:47 PM, David Josephs said:
David,
CD 853 page 2 of SS Protective Research Referral Memorandum.
Description provided by Immigration and Naturalization Service https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11250#relPageId=7&tab=page
Born 11/8/28 in Santiago Cuba. Report dated 3/9/64, which would make him 35 years old at the time.
On 2/10/64, Wallace Heitman interviewed Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro, at which time Orcarberro said that he was born 11/8/28 in Santiago de Cuba, Oriente (Province?), Cuba.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=221&tab=page
Do either of these two men look 35? That's why I'm not sure in my own mind that that's a picture of Orcarberro
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:
Hoping for some help... Found a heavily redacted CIA pdf on Alpha 66...
Could "HERNANDEZ" of the Alpha 66 Hernandez group be FATHER LEON HERNANDEZ?
p12 http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/Alpha-66-1-CIA.pdf
David,
Another possibility would be Jesus Hernandez. He was on the Board of Directors.
REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE
NARA Record Number: 104-10320-10070
See page 5
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726#relPageId=5&tab=page
Steve Thomas
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4 hours ago, David Josephs said:
David,
maybe.jpg.82ddac9ad772f9e38355044937df50ff.jpg)
CD 853 page 2 of SS Protective Research Referral Memorandum.
Description provided by Immigration and Naturalization Service https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11250#relPageId=7&tab=page
A physical description provided, said that Orcarberro was 69” tall, and weighed 145 lbs. He had brown hair and brown eyes.
FBI Report of Wallace Heitman May 26, 1964
CD 1085 page 223.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=223&tab=page
page 5 of Heitman's memo.
“Rodriguez advised that he is 5'11” in height, weighs 158 lbs, has brown hair. It was observed that Rodriguez wears dark glasses and has a dark complexion”
I never have been able to reconcile these two descriptions, which is why I didn't mention Orcarberro as possibly being the man in Bart's Alpha 66 picture here in this thread. Plus, I personally don't think the ears or the balding forehead match very well.
Steve Thomas
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3 hours ago, Bob Ness said:
I suppose I'm stating the obvious but to sum up I really think the Uranium is the key...
Bob,
I agree with you 100%.
Steve Thomas
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To Whom It May Concern,
The Le Crapouillot magazine ran an article in their January-February, 1994 issue on mercenaries. An expose on the mercenaries in the Congo begins on page 11.
The article is decidedly from the mercenaries point of view, and include interviews with Bob Denard, Colonel Schramme, Rolf Steiner and more. There are a lot of interesting photos in the article.
You can find this issue of the magazine here:
http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/L/Le/Le_Crapouillot_-_Nouvelle_serie_-_117.pdf
http://www.pdfarchive.info/index.php?pages/Le
This will be in a zip file, which you have to download, and then extract into a pdf.
On page 37 there is this entry:
Chez les mercenaires, on compte les morts et les blessés. Mais sans inquiétude excessive. On sait que, quelques jours plus tôt, Denard a rassemblé, en Angola, 110 mercenaires et 300 gendarmes katangais. Son but ? Remonter le Katanga par le sud et prendre l'ANC à revers. Aux côtés de Denard, l'ex -capitaine Jean-René Souêtre, ancien officier des commandos de l'air, et un Belge, le capitaine d'Hulster. Le 1er novembre,(1967) les trois pelotons de mercenaires s'enfoncent en territoire congolais, chacun avec un objectif précis : Dilolo, Kasagi, Kolwezi. Le 1er peloton, tombé dans une embuscade, n'échappe que de peu à l'anéantissement. Le 2e peloton occupe Kasagi sans problèmes. Le 3e peloton, en route vers Kolwezi, stoppé par des tirs de mortier, est obligé de se replier sur Kasagi.
http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/L/Le/Le_Crapouillot_-_Nouvelle_serie_-_117.pdf
Le 30 juin 1967, Tschombé qui se trouve à Madrid et dont le chef d'état-major est le capitaine Souêtre (nom de code : major Constant), est contacté par un soi-disant homme d'affaires, en réalité un truand nommé Bodenan, qui lui propose de venir à Palma de Majorque, pour lui racheter les terrains. C'est un piège : Tschombé va être enlevé par Bodenan et livré par lui à l'Algérie.
Roughly translated (according to Google *smile*), this reads:
Mercenaries include the dead and wounded. But without excessive worry. We know that a few days earlier, Denard has gathered in Angola, 110 mercenaries and 300 Katangan gendarmes. Its goal ? Go up Katanga from the south and take the ANC on the back. Alongside Denard, ex-Captain Jean-René Souêtre, former officer of the air commandos, and a Belgian, the captain of Hulster. On November 1, (1967) the three platoons of mercenaries sank in Congolese territory, each with a specific objective: Dilolo, Kasagi, Kolwezi. The 1st platoon, fallen into an ambush, escapes only a little to the annihilation. The 2nd peloton occupies Kasagi without problems. The 3rd peloton, en route to Kolwezi, stopped by mortar fire, is obliged to fall back on Kasagi.
http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/L/Le/Le_Crapouillot_-_Nouvelle_serie_-_117.pdf
On June 30, 1967, Tschombe who is in Madrid and whose chief of staff is Captain Soutre (code name: Major Constant), is contacted by a so-called businessman, in fact a gangster named Bodenan, who offers him to come to Palma de Mallorca, to buy the land. It is a trap: Tschombe will be removed by Bodenan and delivered by him to Algeria.On page 40, there is this picture:
I sort of question that. In 1967, Souetre would have been 37 years old. To me, that's an awfully old looking 37 year old person.
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:
I haven't read far enough to have any comments about Skorzeney in the Congo but the mercenary who certainly did have a huge impact on the military situation there by 63/64 and whose forces largely retook territories for the central government was a South African named Mike Hoare. I write about his operations in the Congo fairly extensively in Shadow Warfare and compare them to the activities of Robertson's Cuban exiles and the Cuban Air Group. The Cuban exile air group made a big difference in the fighting but it was Hoare's mercenaries who operated extensively on the ground - and against the Cuban forces that were infiltrated in the East (led by Che Guevara) along with a CIA presence in the lake region. A bit on Hoare at the link below:
Larry,
I was watching YouTube last night, and one of the segments I caught was about a handwritten letter from a Mike Hoare to Allen Dulles offering his (Hoare's) services to the Commission in any way that Dulles could use him. In his letter, Hoare talked about the many years he spent in the military and CIA. The letter was apparently part of the more recent NARA document releases.
The kicker of the letter was that it was dated November 5, 1963. The author of the YouTube piece was not sure if the letter was mistakenly dated, or if there was something more sinister going on.
Steve Thomas
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20 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:
It certainly did. :)
W. Tracy,
Irrespective of whether or not Veciana met with Bishop/Phillips and/or Oswald or not; do you think Veciana was in Dallas that weekend, or at any time that summer?
Do you know of any clues to his movements that would suggest to me yes or no?
Thanks,
Steve Thomas
maybe.jpg.82ddac9ad772f9e38355044937df50ff.jpg)
George Lumpkin
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
After the assassination, George Lumpkin returned to the TSBD and took command there.
DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm
DPD Dispatch tapes
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/index.htm
12:49 PM
He posted Lieutenant Eric Kaminsky at the front door to take down the ID of anyone leaving.
Kaminsky may have taken down Oswald's ID as he was leaving.
It was Lumpkin to whom Roy Truly reported that Oswald was "missing".
Steve Thomas