Steve Thomas

David, With these two references, that makes at least 27 instances I've run across. Steve Thomas

That says it all. Steve Thomas

I hate saying, "Me too." It sounds too much like a cult. *grin* But, "me too". Steve Thomas

Well, This turned out to be a research bust. The conference was held on December 1, 1963 and lasted for two hours. Both the Texas State Adjutant General and the Commanding General for the Reserve Corps itself were there, but none of the people I was hoping to find signed in as conference participants: Logue, Castorr, Whitmeyer, Crichton, Brandstetter, etc. I guess I need to keep looking to find out which branch of service these Colonels were part of. I did find out how the Texas State Guard Reserve Corps was organized when it was first formed that I'll post just for curiosity's sake. Steve Thomas

David, No biography is free of interpretation. Otherwise, all you're left with is a chronology. Steve Thomas

Andrew, I tried out their facial recognition software by comparing Oswald's mugshot with the backyard rifle photo known as 133A. The software said there is a 54% match and that it's the same person. Steve Thomas

Dan, That's ok. This is a complex case, and you're right. Rabbit holes abound. *smile* Steve Thomas

Dan, Maybe I missed it, but I don't find Pena listed in Batchelor's Exhibit 5002, https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf or in the DPD Archives. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/index.html Steve Thomas

Jim, I'm a big fan of the Corbett Report. Steve Thomas

Paul, It's been a long time since I looked into this. It looks like they are saying that virtually all data on Mankel - his background, etc. has already been released. The only thing that hasn't been released is his true name and they are wondering if they should contest that or not. Back in 2007, I wrote: "The candidates that QJWIN was recruiting were petty criminals, most of them having rap sheets for burglary. William Harvey's handwritten notes on the ZRRIFLE program refer to crypts and codes. Right now I believe that Harvey was putting together a team to break into foreign embassies." On page 3 of that document, https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60509#relPageId=3&tab=page it says that the objective of the ZRRIFLE project was to, "procure foreign code and cypher materials and information on such matters". It looks like the CIA was trying to steal information on foreign cryptonyms. We sit around and scratch our heads and try to figure out what KUBARK and ODACID and AMCLATTER mean. You can understand the frustration when trying to deal with the KGB equivalent. Steve Thomas

Jim, Yes. He could have. I keep forgetting about the other wallet. As far as the library card being in the Bentley wallet... Either Carroll didn't testify truthfully when he said no addresses were mentioned in the car ride; or, Caroll lied when he told Revill that's where it came from; or, Revill lied to Sorrells when he told Sorrells that's what Carroll told him; or, Sorrells lied to the Commission when he told them that's what Revill told him (Sorrells). On the day he testified, May 13, 1964, Revill said: Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest. Mr. RANKIN. Who gave that to you? Mr. REVILL. I believe Detective Carroll, Carroll or Detective Taylor, they were both there. Mr. RANKIN. And was that at the time you made this out that you were given that information? Mr. REVILL. Shortly before I made this out. Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even know where he lived then? Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. I had never heard of him. Carroll had testified a month earlier on April 3, 1964. Why would he tell the WC that no addresses had been mentioned in the car ride, and yet tell Revill on the afternoon of 11/22/63 that the library card had been brought out in the car? Did Revill not know what Carroll had told the WC back in April? This doesn't make sense to me. Steve Thomas

Jim, I think it's because Dulles realized that Revill knew something he shouldn't have known. This was Revill's second appearance before the Commission. At Revill's hearing, he is being asked about this document: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=521&tab=page This is CE 709 and the explosive revelation in it is what Hosty told Revill in the basement about the FBI knowing Oswald was capable of committing the assassination. Revill's testimony is in May. Back in April he had sworn out an affidavit that what he wrote in that memo the previous November was true and accurate. As late as May of 1964, it is the Commission who is telling Revill that he got the address wrong. Mr. RANKIN. And the words 605 Elsbeth Street, was that given by you? Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest. Mr. RANKIN. You know that is wrong, don't you? Mr. REVILL. The 605? Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Mr. REVILL. I don't know. Mr. RANKIN. Is it wrong? Mr. REVILL. Yes; it is. Mr. DULLES. As of the time. Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me. Mr. RANKIN. You found that out? Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at. Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that? Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it. Mr. REVILL. Is this a-is this an incorrect address on Mr. Oswald where he was living at the time? Mr. RANKIN. If you check it up I think you will find--it is an incorrect address at the time. When was the last time you saw a Commission lawyer questioning a Commission member about his knowledge? Revill was unable to tell the Commission how he got that information, and had to go back and find out. What Reviil was told about how that information came about turned out to be wrong. The information about the Elsbeth address is not coming from Revill, but through him. As I said to Paul Brancato, there is a pipeline of information that we don't know about yet. Steve Thomas

Paul, Exactly. PS: I used the term "White Russians" too loosely, I think. These are people who were involved in the oil and gas industry who were also Russians. It seems like the field of oil and gas exploration seems to pop up pretty frequently. Steve Thomas

Ron, My apologies to Jim. I am not trying to hijack this thread, and I won't, but what you mentioned is exactly what I've come to believe. In the Harvey Lee Oswald thread, I wrote, " "I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. I think this persona, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community." I hadn't realized it at the time, but this is just what Peter Dale Scott was writing about in his book, Deep Politics Two. Scott wrote: “This "Harvey Lee Oswald" reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system). Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.9 A consistent pattern of behavior in these agencies since the assassination has been the tendency to suppress references to "Harvey Lee Oswald," and replace them by the more standard "Lee Harvey Oswald."10 9 . For a discussion and incomplete list, see Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics Two, 80, 85-89, 118-19, 142-49. 10. Ibid. especially pp. 118-19. I ran across this memo: MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD: SUBJECT - HARVEY LEE OSWALD https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=18291&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=2&tab=page The author of this memorandum is unknown. The subject of the memo is Harvey Lee Oswald. It looks like it dates from 1972. “The DC/CI (counterintelligence) advised me that the Director had relayed via the DDP (Deputy Director of Plans) the injunction that the Agency was not, under any circumstances, to make inquiries or ask questions of any source or defector about Oswald.” I think it was David Joseph who posted a reference to this document: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16542&relPageId=3 and I was reading through it as it discussed limiting the "tracing" on an individual to a bare minimum. I can't remember who was talking about limiting information on Oswald to the CI/SIG office and away from the Russia Desk and Oswald's 201 file - John Newman, or Bill Simpich, or somebody a whole lot more qualified than I am. Depending on where the name popped up, would an investigation of who had been tracing Harvey Lee Oswald have unearthed a mole? That's why I was so surprised when I read that on page 433 of Commission Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960." In that list of TSBD employees, it not only got Oswald's address wrong, but his name wrong as well. That suggests to me a pipeline of information that we don't know about yet. Jim asked where the Elsbeth address on the TSBD employee list came from. It's coming from somewhere. Dulles was asking Revill the same question. Steve Thomas

Jim, Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at. Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that? Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it. Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall? Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address? Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also. Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour---- The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you, again, lieutenant. This is one of the few times that I know of, that a Commission member took over the questioning. Usually it was left to one of the lawyers or the staff. It's Dulles, not Rankin who keeps pushing Revill where he got this address. Is Dulles concerned that Revill knew about a connection of a Harvey Lee Oswald to Elsbeth St, and how Revill would know about that? Just about the time when Revill would have revealed when he obtained this address, he is cut off. CE 2003 located in (24H259) is the list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Jack Revill of TSBD employees. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. I was looking at this list of employees and something hit me. The list was compiled by Roy Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section, and given to Jack Revill. Westphal and Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau. The second column has the abbreviations at the top that says, "REF. INT". at the top. Most of the names have NONE listed, but there are three names that have a number alongside their name. I always thought that the INT at the top of the column meant Interview, but then I remembered something. In the book, No More Silence by Larry Sneed, Westphal says that later in the evening on the 22nd, he and Parks had returned to their office at the Fairgrounds to write up their Report of their days activities. While they were there, Gannaway called them and asked them to cross-reference the list of TSBD employees against the CID's Intelligence Files. When they did, they recognized Joe Molina's name. Gannaway told them to bring the whole file downtown. https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+"+Roy+Westphal"&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas " Roy Westphal"&f=false I realized that the "INT" at the top of the second column stands for "Intelligence", not "Interview". With Harvey Lee Oswald, living at 605 Elsbeth is listed as having NONE alongside his name, this would indicate to me that Oswald was not in their Intelligence files, and that that information had come from somewhere else. From the WC testimony of George Bouhe: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm Mr. LIEBELER - As far as you know, the next place that Oswald lived after he moved out of the YMCA was in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas? Mr. BOUHE - Madison is around the corner from somewhere he ultimately lived. Mr. LIEBELER - He ultimately lived at 604 Elsbeth? Mr. BOUHE - And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me. Mr. LIEBELER - That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of? Mr. BOUHE - Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the FBI agent told me they proved that, or something. On November 28, 1963 George Bouhe was interviewed by SA John Flanagan about any possible relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=400&search=Bouhe In the course of the interview, Bouhe "produced a card on which he kept addresses and this card bore the notation dated November 1, 1963, 602 Elsbeth..." “Following his residence at the YMCA, he said Oswald secured a room in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, but he could not recall this address, nor did he have a record of it in his papers. At this point Mr. Bouhe produced a card on which he kept addresses.” 1963 is a typo. This should be 1962 http://jfkassassinat...ny/voshin_i.htm Mr. VOSHININ - Yeah - and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and still keeps files on everybody - when anybody was born, baptized, or whatever happened to everybody. Mr. JENNER - I see. Mr. VOSHININ - He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came here, I immediately opened a file on you." I say, "What for?" And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things - so I keep a file on everybody." https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=129757&search=Alexander_Kleinlerer#relPageId=9&tab=page is also: FBI - HSCA Subject File: Lydia Dymitruk (page 9 in the file, page 7 of the Report) https://www.maryferr...geId=9&tab=page On December 3, 1968 the FBI interviewed a George Bloodworth, who was a Warrant Officer Candidate in the U.S. Army Helicopter School in Mineral Wells, Texas. He met George Bouhe in the apartment of Alexander Kleinlerer. Bloodworth had formerly been in the Marines and had been stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Tunisia. He was very security conscious. Kleinlerer left the apartment to buy some food at a delicatessan, and Bloodworth and Bouhe got to talking. While they were talking, Bloodworth got the impresion that Bouhe was “one of us”, meaning an Army Intelligence Agent. WC testimony of George Bouhe: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm Mr. BOUHE - For 9 1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, Lewis W, MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, but I was MacNaughton's personal employee. WC testimony of George Bouhe (8H355 plus) http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is a standard statement I would ask anybody. And for 2 or 3---or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6 o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine. Bye." Mr. LIEBELER - That would be the extent of his conversation with you on the telephone? Mr. BOUHE - Yes. Mr. LIEBELER - He didn't tell you anything of the details of his work? Mr. BOUHE - I did not ask. Mr. LIEBELER - Did you know where---- Mr. BOUHE - Wait a second, maybe I did ask and, well, he said it was some photographic process in the lithographic business, but I don't know what that means. In her Chronologies, Mary Ferrell has the following notes, but these may be based on George Bouhe's WC testimony: October 12, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says “Im fine”. October 15, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says,“I'm fine.” October 16, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe and says, “Im fine.” October 17, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says, “Im fine.” October 18, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says, “I'm fine.” On October 19th the calls stop. Oswald checks out of the YMCA and disappears for two weeks. He is working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, but no one knows where he is living. Not his wife, not his bosses at JCS, not his co-workers, not his acquaintances. According to the WC testimonies of Alexandra de Mohrenschildt and George Bouhe, it is a room somewhere in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. George de Mohrenschildt said that Oswald “found himself a place to live.” On November 3rd, Oswald surfaces again and moves to 604 Elsbeth. The owner of the apartment building (the Tobias's lived in 602). In his WC testimony, James Hosty also told the Commission that he had tracked the Oswalds to Elsbeth back in March of 1963, but Bouhe's information predates Hosty's by about four months. I personally believe, but cannot prove, that there is a flow of military intelligence that runs through the White Russian figures of George Bouhe and Max Clark. Steve Thomas

Michael, You're absolutely right, but I asked myself; even if the note at the bottom of that page is in the form of a question, why they would appear at all in a list of names that included F.Lee Chrisman and Charles Siragusa? Steve Thomas

Jim, It's not just the Hidell ID. There's a problem with the library card too. The only two accounts of Oswald having a library card on him prior to his arrival at City Hall are erroneous. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm "About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification." Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out. I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card. Mr. BELIN. All right; when did you learn of his address? Mr. HILL. There were two different addresses on the identification. One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving." Secret Service Report of Dallas SS Agent Robert Steuart dated November 24, 1963. Itemizes the contents of Oswald's billfold: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&search=Oswald_billfold+contents#relPageId=220&tab=page “I examined the contents of billfold which I was told was taken from Assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald.” Item numbers 6&7: front and back sides of Dallas Public Library card bearing the address of 602 Elsbeth. There is nothing in those billfold contents which gives an Irving address. Lieutenant Jack Revill testified before the Warren Commission on May 13, 1964. (Bob Carroll had already testified a month earlier – see below) http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/revill2.htm The questioning concerns a Report that Revill wrote out at approximately 3:30 to 3:35 on the afternoon of the 22nd concerning Lee Harvey Oswald at 605 Elsbeth St. Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me. Mr. RANKIN. You found that out? Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at. Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that? Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it. Notice the interplay between Rankin and Dulles. Dulles seems to know about the Elsbeth St. address and he wants to know how Revill knows about it. Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall? Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; from Detective E. B. Carroll or Detective Taylor. Mr. DULLES. Are they subordinates? Mr. REVILL. No; they are detectives assigned to the special service bureau. One of them works the narcotics squad and one of them is assigned to the vice unit. Mr. DULLES. You never ascertained where they got it? Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this might be the address that they got from Oswald, I do not know. I never even thought about it until you brought up the point that this is not the address. Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address? Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can. Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also. Mr. REVILL. I will attempt to find out on that address, and I shall let Mr. Sorrels know, with Secret Service. Warren Commission Document# 948 is a memo from Sorrels to Inspector Kelley dated May 19, 1964. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344#relPageId=2&tab=page In that memo, Sorrels says that Revill contacted Sorrels (it does not say how this contact was made), and said that Revill told him he got the 605 Elsbeth address orally from Bob Carroll. As the driver of the car that took Oswald from the Theater to the police station, Carroll allegedly looked back over his shoulder and read the address off a Dallas Public Library card that had been removed from Oswald's billfold by one of the officers in the back seat. Carroll allegedly said that he misread the number as 605 instead of 602. Detective Bob Carroll's testimony before the Warren Commission April 3, 1964 http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification? Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned. Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned? Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir. In his after-action Report dated December 3, 1963, DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 4, page 2 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm Detective Paul Bentley wrote: “On the way to the City Hall, I removed the suspect's wallet and obtained his name.... I turned his identification over to Lt. Baker. I then went to Captain Westbrook's office to make a report of this arrest.” There is nothing in his Report about obtaining an address, any address. Oswald's ID immediately went to Lieutenant Baker. Where is Bentley's Report to Westbrook done on November 22nd. Was it written, or was it just an oral report? Why did he go to Westbrook to make his Report? Westbrook was in Personnel. Steve Thomas

Paul, In his WC testimony, he's listed as Curtis Laverne Crafard. Steve Thomas

David, This is probably the wrong thread for this, but look at page 70 of the document you posted: employees, agents or informants: Laverne Crafard and James Earl Ray. my, my, my. Steve Thomas

Paul, I went back and looked at the memo. It was from the Chief, KUTUBE/D. One copy was sent to Chief of Station, Rome. Steve Thomas

Paul, Was that Bill Harvey, or did he come later? Steve Thomas

David, It helps a little. One thing I noticed is that in those documents is that Green List is a two word designation. The other thing I noticed is that Green List and RI seem to have a foreign asset emphasis. This would make sense since the KUTUBE/D subject of the memo I referred to dealt with a foreign asset, and ZR/RIFLE also dealt with foreign assets. Steve Thomas

Does anyone know what Greenlist, or the Greenlist was? This sentence was in a Memorandum about KUTUBE/D the CIA "Staff D" responsible for SIGINT (Signals Intelligence - electronic intercepts), where the ZR/RIFLE "executive action" (assassination) program was housed. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16542&relPageId=3 “For your information, our tracing at Headquarters consists of the following minimum: RI, RI archives, Greenlist, KUSODA files, Italian Branch files (and other branches as appropriate).” The intent of the memo was that tracing of a certain individual was to be kept to absolute minimum. For that matter, can you also tell me what RI, or RI archives was? Thanks, Steve Thomas

I was just wondering... I think I've read that the revolver that was taken from Oswald in the Theater was fully loaded. Were the bullets from that revolver dusted for fingerprints? It would seem that the physical act of loading that revolver would require pushing the bullets into the chamber by pushing them in with your thumb. Were Oswald's thumbprints found on the base of those bullets? Just like the unfired bullet found in the chamber of the rifle. That bullet didn't have Oswald's thumbprint on it either, which would involve the same physical process of loading the clip... It makes me wonder. Steve Thomas

"The word facetious describes something you don't take seriously." www.vocabulary.com Steve Thomas