Steve Thomas

In another Forum, Tom Sorenson corrected me. The third shell addressed by Day in his letter to Belin references one of the rifle shells found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, not one of the revolver shells. Steve Thomas

DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill: "We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car. Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm Where have we heard that physical description before? Oh yeah, that's the physical description that went out over the police radio at 12:45. Of course, Hill didn't get this witness's name or anything. Mr. BELIN. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember the name of the person that gave you the description? Mr. HILL. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name. Mr. POE. We had--I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200 people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot Tippit. Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot Tippit. Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was? Mr. POE. Sir? Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was? Mr. POE. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, Mr. BALL. What did you do then? Mr. POE. We gave the description to several of the officers at the scene. Mr. BALL. Did you ever put that description on the radio? Mr. POE. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it. Mr. BALL. And what happened after that? Mr. POE. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. Dominique, I believe. Mr. BALL. Domingo Benavides? Mr. POE. I believe that is correct; yes, sir. Mr. BALL. What did he tell you? Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, Mr. BALL. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the Davis girls hand you anything? Mr. POE. She give me the same general description of the suspect as Mrs. Markham. Mr. BALL. What was that? Mr. POE. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about 145 pounds, Poe provides absolutely no account of receiving a witness from Hill. Oh, an BTW, this is going a long way back in my memory, but wasn't one of the problems with the Tippit scene is that five shells were found, but Tippit had only been shot four times? Three in the magical mystery cigarette package, and two found by the Davis sisters? Three of one brand and two of another? Speculation was that one shot missed. Steve Thomas

Two becomes three and it gets better. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/benavide.htm Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner. Mr. BELIN - When you went back, what did you do? Mr. BENAVIDES - Well, I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells. Mr. BENAVIDES - No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across. Mr. BELIN - Now you saw him throw two shells? Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - You saw where he threw the shells? Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Did you later go back in that area and try and find the shells? Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew exactly where they was at, and I went over and picked up one in my hand, not thinking and I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints off it, so I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome looking shell. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/poe.htm Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up. Mr. BALL. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn? Mr. POE. A man, white man. Mr. BALL. What was he doing? Mr. POE. He was unloading his pistol as he run. Mr. BALL. And what did he say? Mr. POE. He said he picked the two hulls up. Mr. BALL. Did he hand you the hulls? Mr. POE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Did you put any markings on the hulls? Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir. Mr. BALL. What did you do with the hulls? Mr. POE. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene. Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from the crime lab? Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't swear to it. Mr. POE. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package. Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package? Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges. Mr. BALL. To the crime lab? Mr. POE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are you think it is 'these two? Q-77 and Q-75? Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there. Mr. BALL. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western Special. Mr. BALL How long did you stay there? Mr. POE. At the scene? Mr. BALL. Uh-huh. Mr. POE. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime lab got there. Mr. BALL. Then you left? Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect. 2:26 PM https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11126#relPageId=68&tab=page Dispatcher. “75 and 69. Return back to this location. They want the Theater shaken down good for two hulls. Believe the suspect reloaded his pistol in the Theater. We need the two hulls. 2:26 PM” 75. 10-4 105. (Poe) “105, I have recovered two hulls at the scene and they were turned over to the Crime Lab to Pete Barnes.” Dispatcher. Received. Dispatcher. 75 and 69 Disregard at this time. Notice the time. Headquarters is still looking for these shells an hour after Barnes has arrived on the Tippit scene. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/barnes.htm Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did out at the crime scene? Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls that was turned over to me. Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings? Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not sure about that. Mr. BELIN. While you were out there, were any additional hulls found other than these two? Mr. BARNES. Yes. Captain Doughty picked up another hull, .38 caliber. Mr. BELIN. Did you see Captain Doughty pick it up? Mr. BARNES. I did not. Mr. BELIN. Were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out to Captain Doughty, or did he get it himself, or what? Mr. BARNES. I heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it up. Mr. BELIN. You mean some citizen? Mr. BARNES. Some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up? Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he might have located it? What approximate location? Mr. BARNES. I was a busy man and I didn't watch his operation. Mr. BELIN. About when did you say you got out to the Tippit scene? Mr. BARNES. Approximately 1:40. Mr. BELIN. 1:40 in the afternoon? Mr. BARNES. Approximately, November 22. Mr. BELIN. When would you have started taking these pictures? Mr. BARNES. Shortly afterwards. Mr. BELIN. Within 5 or 10 minutes? Mr. BARNES. Yes. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package... I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible... DPD Archives Box 9, Folder# 3, Item# 2 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box9.htm Letter from Lieutenant J.C. Day to David Belin of the Warren Commission dated April 23, 1964. Sir, “In regard to the third hull which I stated has GD for George Doughty scratched on it, Captain Doughty does not remember handling this. Please check again to see possibly if it can be VD or VBD for Vince Drain.” Steve Thomas

Gene, He got on a bus and took it to Lopfield. Several times. *smile* Steve Thomas

Glenn, "Dresser Industries was a multinational corporation headquartered in Dallas, Texas, United States, which provided a wide range of technology, products, and services used for developing energy and natural resources. In 1998, Dresser merged with its main rival Halliburton " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresser_Industries Steve Thomas

Joe, Marina said that Lee told her he had buried it. I can't speak to other occasions when Marina testified to the authorities, but things get really hinky when Marina is testifying about the rifle. Over the course of time, I've been jotting down notes: Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964, http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?" He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell. I don't know---I am not a criminologist. After this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had been using a bus. I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the rifle. Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all? Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what? Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting? Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week. Where was the rifle between Sunday and Wednesday – the day of the shooting? Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street? Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be hack soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it. Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle? Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing. Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little help on how you knew? Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. And he would mention that in passing---it isn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going"---it wasn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice." But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice." Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle? Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield. Mr. RANKIN. Would that be at the airport---Love Field? Mrs. OSWALD. Love Field. I read that Love Field is something like six miles from where they lived on Neely St., so he would have had to have taken the bus, unless someone was giving him rides – all the time while he working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read---where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was. Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room? Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open. Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it. Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445). http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227 Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address at the beginning of January, 1963. 9(CE 1156 p. 197). Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964, http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there? Mrs. OSWALD. No. Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? (From Fort Worth to Elsbeth) Mrs. OSWALD. No. Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment? Mrs. OSWALD. No. Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964, http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment? Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly. Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle? Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February. For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th. In her HSCA testimony, Marina couldn't remember the first time she saw the rifle. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm Marina's HSCA testimony http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm When do you first recall seeing Lee with a rifle in the United States? Mrs. PORTER. I cannot pinpoint exact month, you know, date of any kind. Mr. McDONALD. Where did you first see it? Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember where or when, but I can say that Lee did have a rifle during life in the United States. Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445). http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227 This is cross referenced to DL 100-10461 (4) On February 17, 1964 Marina was interviewed by FBI Special Agents Anatole Boguslav and Wallace Heitman. In their writeup of that interview done on the 18th, they wrote: “She said further that in the beginning of January, 1963 at the Neely Street address, he, (Lee Harvey Oswald) was cleaning his rifle and he said he had been practicing that day.” (page 443 of CD 735). For whatever reason, this conflicts with the official record as we know it.. Supposedly the Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th. CE 1404 - FBI reports dated February 22 and 25, 1964, of interviews with Marina Oswald (CD 735, pp. 446-453). On February 18, 1964 she was again interviewed by Agents Boguslav and Heitman. She told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963. The Agents wrote a Report of this interview on February 22, 1964. http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815 (This is on page 446 of CD 735) So, let me see if I've got this straight. Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased. She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, but then later told them that she was mistaken and that the cleaning had taken place in March. It was kept out in the open, but may be he kept it outside. She never actually saw him take the rifle away from the apartment and never talks about seeing him bring it back. Lee took the rifle on Sunday, but the shooting wasn't until Wednesday. Where was the rifle in the meantime? She said that Lee had told her her buried the rifle after the shooting. When did he go back and dig it up? Lee was riding a bus for six miles with a rifle - several times. Steve Thomas

Paul, "is Frances Raby Whitmeyer related to this story other than working for the steamship company in New Orleans and being married to Whitmeyer?" No, other than the fact that according to Mary Ferrell's database, " In 1963, his wife Frances Raby Whitmeyer had a gift shop in Trade Mart. There was a rumor that FBI set up command post in her shop on 11/22/63". https://www.maryferrell.org/php/marysdb.php?id=10103 "was Whitmeyer a far right Dallas based retired Army Colonel who was in the motorcade?" I can't say he was "far right", but yes, he rode in the pilot cat with Lumpkin, and Det's Senkel and Turner. Senkel was one of the Detectives dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. Lumpkin and Whitmeyer were both in army intelligence. I believe at this time that Senkel was the officer whose name Fritz couldn't remember, who told Fritz out in the hallway before he even went in the room to interrogate Oswald for the first time, that Oswald lived on Beckley. I think Senkel got that information from Lumpkin and Whitmeyer, and that's why he was dispatched there. When the Detectives got there, they wanted to know if Harvey Lee Oswald lived there. PS: It's the steamship company that caught my attention. I asked myself the question, why would a guy from Florida be taking a steamer out of New Orleans to sail to France. Why wouldn't he just sail out of Florida? I was just reading this morning that the Lykes Steamship company was the largest shipper of beef to Batista's Cuba before Castro took over. Steve Thomas

Lieutenant Colonel George B. Church, Jr. Affidavit of George B. Church https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_GeorgeChurch_aff.pdf p. 115 AFFIDAVIT OF GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR. The following affidavit was executed by George B. Church, Jr., on June 27, 1964. PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF AFFIDAVIT PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY STATE OF FLORIDA, county of Hilleborough, 88: I, George B. Church, Jr., 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida, being duly sworn say : 1.”I am a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army and am now a Junior High School teacher in Tampa. I am attending the University of Florida this summer. My wife and I traveled to Europe on the S.S. Marion Lykes which departed New Orleans, Louisiana for LeHavre, France, on or about September 20, 1959. This vessel was a freighter with accommodations for 12 passengers assigned two to a room. On this particular trip, there were but four passengers aboard. One of them was Lee Harvey Oswald, who shared a state room with an individual named Billy Joe Lord. The trip from New Orleans, Louisiana, terminated at LeHavre, France. The entire trip was approximately 16 days.” OBITUARY Whitmeyer, Frances Raby was born February 21, 1922 and passed away April 4, 2009. Frances was born in Athens, Alabama to S.W. and Donna Raby. She graduated from Alabama Women's College in Athens. She moved to New Orleans and worked for the Lykes Steamship Co. and also for the City of New Orleans helping to translate French law into English. She later married George Whitmeyer and they moved to Germany where he was stationed after the war. hmmm... Steve Thomas

Okay. I see now. This is as you say, just a mockup. The money order we have in evidence is CE 788. Steve Thomas

Lance, Does this mean that what we are looking at here is not Lee Harvey Oswald's signature? It's somebody else's? Steve Thomas

David, Why does the money order say 47 cents, but the stub only says 45 cents? Steve Thomas

Pamela, Even more than George Dehmorenschildt, I would look to George Bouhe and Max Clark. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tobias.htm Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the 3d of November--here's the books when you get ready for them--he moved in November 3, 1962. Mr. JENNER. He moved in the 3d of November 1962? Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, he was in 604--602 and 604--just like this is 604 over here and 602 is down here and there is one down and one up. Mr. Oswald lived in 604 and we live over here in 602 and it faces Elsbeth. FBI interview of George Bouhe: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=400&search=Bouhe On November 28, 1963 Bouhe was interviewed by SA John Flanagan about any possible relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald. In the course of the interview, Bouhe "produced a card on which he kept addresses and this card bore the notation dated November 1, 1963, 602 Elsbeth..." “Following his residence at the YMCA, he said Oswald secured a room in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, but he could not recall this address, nor did he have a record of it in his papers. At this point Mr. Bouhe produced a card on which he kept addresses.” (I believe that “1963” was a misprint. It should have been “1962”). WC testimony of George Bouhe March 23, 1964 http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm Mr. BOUHE - And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me. Mr. LIEBELER - That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of? Mr. BOUHE - Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the FBI agent told me they proved that, or something. How could George Bouhe know on November 1st or 2nd that Oswald was living in an apartment that he didn't rent until November 3rd? http://jfkassassinat...ny/voshin_i.htm Mr. VOSHININ - Yeah - and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and still keeps files on everybody - when anybody was born, baptized, or whatever happened to everybody. Mr. JENNER - I see. Mr. VOSHININ - He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came here, I immediately opened a file on you." I say, "What for?" And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things - so I keep a file on everybody." https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=129757&search=Alexander_Kleinlerer#relPageId=9&tab=page On December 3, 1968 the FBI interviewed a George Bloodworth, who was a Warrant Officer Candidate in the U.S. Army Helicopter School in Mineral Wells, Texas. He met George Bouhe in the apartment of Alexander Kleinlerer. Bloodworth had formerly been in the Marines and had been stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Tunisia. He was very security conscious. Kleinlerer left the apartment to buy some food at a delicatessan, and Bloodworth and Bouhe got to talking. While they were talking, Bloodworth got the impresion that Bouhe was “one of us”, meaning an Army Intelligence Agent. Bouhe supposedly lost contact with Oswald when he moved to Elsbeth in November of 1962. I think Oswald's move to Neely took a lot of people by surprise. Steve Thomas

Richard, Thank you for your response. I figured the package would have advertising all over it, but I guess not. Steve Thomas

Mr. HOSTY. Very much so, yes. I became curious then. Shortly thereafter, on the 29th of October, I received another communication from the New Orleans office advising that they had a change of address for Lee and Marina Oswald to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. I then went out on the same date, on the 29th of October 1963, to the neighborhood of 2515 West Fifth Street, made inquiry at 2519 West Fifth Street, made what we call a pretext interview, and talked to a woman, whose name at that time I didn't know, but who I now know to be Mrs. Dorothy Roberts. She further told, me that there was a Russian-born and Russian-speaking woman residing with Mrs. Paine. She told me this woman did not speak any English... This woman further advised me that the wife of this Russian-born woman, who was an American, had visited his wife there on one occasion, but did not reside on West Fifth Street in Irving. (He meant husband, not wife). (I) contacted the Bell Helicopter Co. and the security officer at Bell Helicopter, Mr. Ted Schurman, advised me that Michael Paine was employed by them as a research engineer and he held a security clearance. I then went to St. Marks School in Dallas. I had known from previous experience this school enjoyed a good reputation and I could approach them safely. I talked to Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster at St. Marks School. He told me that Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be a stable individual. He stated that Mrs. Paine was employed as a part-time teacher of the Russian language at that school, and he also advised that in a recent conversation with Mrs. Paine she had advised him that she had a Russian-born woman living with her. This woman could not speak any English. As late as the late fall of 1963, knowing that Marina could not speak English, and that Lee did not live there, on November 1st, Hosty went to 2515 W. Fifth St. specifically to talk to Ruth Paine, not Marina.; even though in the Spring of 1963, Hosty was trying to locate Marina "for the purpose of interviewing her". Steve Thomas

David, Does anybody know if Kleins shipped their rifles disassembled or not? If it was broken down, it might not have been 5' long, but surely the package would have been clearly marked, wouldn't it? Steve Thomas

Jeff, In his WC testimony, Hosty said that he got the Neely St. address from the postal authorities on the same day he went to visit the Oswalds at their Elsbeth St. address, March 11, 1963. Mrs. Tobias said that she evicted them on March 3rd, so the Oswald's would had to have filed something between the 3rd and the 11th; although Mr. George said he took $60.00 in rent from Oswald on March 2nd, so LHO was looking for another place before Mrs. Tobias evicted them on the 3rd. Like you say, without a change of address form, it's hard to know how the postal authorities would know this. Steve Thomas

On three separate occasions that I have found, Marina says that the Oswalds were living on Neely Street in January, 1963. (1) Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964, http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment? Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly. Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle? Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February. Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol? Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures. (2) During her testimony on February 4th, Marina was asked and answered: Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine? Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January. Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963? Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street? Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street. Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth? Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance. (Ruth Paine testified that she met Marina on February 22nd.) (3) Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445). http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227 This is cross referenced to DL 100-10461 (4) On February 17, 1964 Marina was interviewed by FBI Special Agents Anatole Boguslav and Wallace Heitman. In their writeup of that interview done on the 18th, they wrote: “She said further that in the beginning of January, 1963 at the Neely Street address, he, (Lee Harvey Oswald) was cleaning his rifle and he said he had been practicing that day.” (page 443 of CD 735). For whatever reason, this conflicts with the official record as we know it.. Supposedly the Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th. CE 1404 - FBI reports dated February 22 and 25, 1964, of interviews with Marina Oswald (CD 735, pp. 446-453). On February 18, 1964 she was again interviewed by Agents Boguslav and Heitman. She told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963. The Agents wrote a Report of this interview on February 22, 1964. http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815 (This is on page 446 of CD 735) Steve Thomas

Whoops. Hit the wrong button. What I was going to say, is that if I understand it correctly. JFK did the same thing in Laos. Steve Thomas

Bart, Thanks for this. Pretty impressive work you did there. Couple of small things: That's a pretty s***y first floor coffee area on page 42. I'd hate to have to work there. I believe that the policeman who stopped Oswald at the front door was Erich Kaminsky. In his after-action report, Lumpkin wrote that, DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10, page 21 (#22 in the list of gif files) http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm "At that time, Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off, that no one be allowed to leave or enter. Lieutenant Erich Kaminsky was placed on the inner door of the building,..." It's an interesting study trying to determine who was the first one who ordered the building sealed. In that Report Lumpkin wrote that upon his arrival at the TSBD, "Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going in or out." But, in the very next paragraph, he wrote, " "At that time, Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off, that no one be allowed to leave or enter." Why would he need to issue those instructions if it had already been done? The WC Commission seemed very skeptical of when Sawyer actually ordered the building to be sealed off. It sounds like he went inside and upstairs before he came back down and went back outside before he ordered the building sealed. Lumpkin wrote that when he arrived at the TSBD, he found Sawyer outside on the sidewalk. Sawyer was an Inspector, which means that he spent his time making sure other policemen were doing their jobs right. I'm not sure how much experience he had in securing crime scenes. Fritz and Sawyer and Lumpkin all claimed to be the one that ordered the building sealed. I've tried to picture in my mind the confusion that must have reigned in the average Joe Policeman's mind as different supervisors in different command chains were issuing different orders. "You go over there, But my boss said to go over there". Steve Thomas PS: Yo'ure right. Ellis didn't have much use for Baker, or McLain either for that matter. According to what he told Larry Sneed, he'd been a motorcycle cop for more than thirty years.

Bart, What paper is that? If it's online, could you provide me with a link? I'd be interested in reading it. Steve Thomas

Ed, Sergeant Stavis Ellis was in charge of the motorcyclists motorcade escort. For what it's worth, here's what he had to say about Baker on p. 151 of Larry Sneed's, Nor More Silence: Steve Thomas

Dan, That's pretty good insight I think. Steve Thomas

How did FBI Agent James Hosty expect to communicate with Marina Oswald? Mr. STERN. Did you take over from Agent Fain or in some other way? Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I did not take over directly. When Agent Fain retired directly from the Bureau he had closed the case.(on Lee Harvey Oswald). He had a case which we call a pending inactive case on Mrs. Marina Oswald. This case I did take over. It was in what we call a pending inactive status, that is, nothing was to be done for a period of 6 months. Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her. I might add that it is the practice of the FBI to interview immigrants from behind the Iron Curtain on a selective basis, and she was so selected to be one of these persons to be interviewed. Mr. STERN. When was this? Mr. HOSTY. This was March 4, 1963, when I began my inquiry as to her present whereabouts. I determined on March 4, 1963, through the Immigration and Naturalization Service records that she had moved from Fort Worth to the Dallas area. She was living on a street called Elsbeth Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. On March 11, 1963, I made inquiry at this Elsbeth address, Mr. STERN. You say that you were considering interviewing Marina Oswald? Mr. HOSTY. Right. Mr. STERN. Did you know that she did not speak English? Mr. HOSTY. Yes; I knew that. In fact, I determined that when I did the neighborhood check on the 3d of March. Mrs. Tobias (the landlady at Elsbeth) told me that she didn't speak a word of English and couldn't communicate with anybody except her husband who spoke Russian. So, Hosty was doing a neighborhood check on March 3rd, before he began his inquiry on March 4th to learn her present whereabouts and learned from INS that the Oswalds had moved to Elsbeth. He talked to Mrs. Tobias on March 11th and found out that they had moved. Mrs. Tobias told him that Marina couldn't speak English. What "neighborhood" was Hosty checking on March 3rd? And knowing that she didn't speak English, how did Hosty think he was going to be able to talk to her? Mr. HOSTY. (On the) 1st of November. I worked in the Fort Worth area in the morning and on my way back from the Fort Worth area at approximately 2:30 p.m., I stopped at the residence of Mrs. Ruth Paine, 2515 West Fifth Street, Guess who else lived in the Fort Worth area? The White Russian Community of George DeMohrenschildt and George Bouhe and Max Clark, etc. Were they a conduit of information for James Hosty? They had known that the Oswalds were living on Elsbeth as far back as November of 1962. George Bouhe had files on everybody. Steve Thomas

Pamela, I'm sort of coming around to that position too. Reading through the Soviet documents we have makes me suspicious. They are so contradictory. Mostly it was that bit in Oswald's diary when he wrote that after six weeks of being incognito, he was visited by three guys he had never seen before. That just really made me go, hmmmm... Marina's case is kind of weird. I was reading something the other day about her marriage to her second husband, the guy named Porter. They got married only about a month after meeting. That sounded an awful lot like her marriage to Lee Harvey - or Harvey Lee., or whoever. *grin* Steve Thomas