Steve Thomas
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Posts posted by Steve Thomas
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5 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:
Steve, first off I would refer you to the actual mission of the OSI, they like an Army military intelligence group would have had no role in Presidential protection unless it involved a visit to a military facility or some relatively remote location where the military was involved in logistics for the trip.
Larry,
What I had in mind was that Section 1-6-3 of the manual for "Protection Coverage For Distinguished Visitors" where it says with respect to the President of the United States, that "Armed OSI Agents may actively participate in this protection regardless of the locale."
and
"Approval is not required...."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11249&search=OSI#relPageId=44&tab=page
Section 1-6-6 of that Manual says that protection of Distinguished Visitors would only exist on air bases, or aboard a USAF aircraft (except as set forth in paragraph 1-6-3 (the President).
Steve Thomas
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5 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:
Steve, I happen to be working on the Air Force now and tracing any particular group over the decades is a major chore,
Larry,
" tracing any particular group over the decades is a major chore,"
I'll drink to that!
Steve
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2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:
Steve, OSI is almost certainly AFOSI or Air Force Office of Special Investigations. INTC is probably Army Intelligence Corps although that is something of an uncommon usage since its normally Military Intel Corps or MIC. It might be going to the 112th but it might also be going to a higher headquarters. AFOSI would have had a regional office at the time, not in Dallas.
Its is a local FBI office memo out of Dallas or an FBI HQ memo, that would probably give a clue as to where it was really going.
Larry,
Thanks for your reply. In looking into this a little bit, I agree that the OSI referred to in this memo was the Air Force's Office of Special Investigations, which opens up a whole 'nuther area of research. It makes me want to re-think the whole "Secret Service on the Knoll" thingy.
I wonder if anyone has ever filed a FOIA request with that office for any files they may have related to JFK's visit to Dallas since they had a Presidential Protection role, and any investigation they undertook in its aftermath. If the 112th was indeed ordered to stand down, I wonder if the Air Force's OSI received the same orders.
see p. 4 of CD 852 (Section 1-6-3)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11249&search=OSI#relPageId=44&tab=page
I was looking at another memo where instructions were being relayed to a Lt. Col. James Schofield of the OSI's 23rd District Office at Carswell Air Force Base, Fort Worth, requesting an FBI investigation of Max Clark in 1952. (He who welcomed Oswald to Forth Worth on his return from the USSR).
From what I can tell, the 112th was constituted, and re-constituted several times in its career, and from what I gather, from 1961 - 1966 it was constituted as the Intelligence Corps Group, with the "Group" part often left off in correspondance.
Steve Thomas
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I was reading through an FBI report on the Minutemen in Dallas, and at the end of it, it says, "INTC, OSI and the Secret Service has been advised..."
I'm pretty sure that the INTC is the 112th Intelligence Corps, but can anyone tell me what the OSI stands for? The closest I can figure out is the Air Force's Office of Special Investigations, but I'm not sure that's right.
BTW, this is an interesting little memo:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=136065#relPageId=4&tab=page
Steve Thomas
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14 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:
I did a 23-minute interview today on the assassination
with Jim Engster in Louisiana,
http://www.jimengster.com/jim-engster-podcasts/Joseph,
Can you give us a synopsis, or anything new that came out?
Steve Thomas
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Bart,
The next time you see Ian, would you tell him I said hello?
Steve Thomas
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I've been slogging through the DPD Archives and haven't been able to find any Reports of Officers Duties that day from Brian, Westphal or Tarver where they describe making a list of employees names and addresses, which is a shame. Brian testified to the Warren Commission, but only describes searching the TSBD and said, " in fact, I didn't have time to (write a report of the Hosty/Revill conversation) because when I got back there they had a list of names they were going to start checking out and they handed me six of them and says, "Start going and checking here and here and here and checking these people."
Tarver and Wetphal did not testify to the WC.
Just as an aside, in going through these Reports, I was amazed at the number of TSBD employees who were standing on the Depository steps at the time of the assassination who, when interviewed in February, 1964, said they thought that the shots came from west of the Depository in the direction of the railroad tracks.
Steve Thomas
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15 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
CE 2003 located in (24H259) is the list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Jack Revill of TSBD employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. The Report submitted to Gannaway says it is coming thru Jack Revill. Page 3 of CE 2003, found on page 260, is signed by R.W. Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section. R.W. Westphal and P.M. Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau. Carroll and Taylor were also Detectives in that Bureau. W.P. Gannaway was the Captain and Revill was one of the Lieutenants.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
Lieutenant Revill told the Warren Commission that he drafted his report within 30 minutes to an hour of when he and Hosty had their conversation in the basement (5H39). The list of employees and their addresses were drawn up by Westphal and Parks, but Revill said he got the address from Bob Carroll. If, for the sake of argument, Revill got the Elsbeth address from Carroll, where did the name Harvey Lee Oswald come from? That's not the name on the library card. Unless Revill or Westphal got the name wrong as well as the address.
Steve Thomas
The list of TSBD employees reproduced in CE2003 can also be found in
Box 4, Folder# 3, Item# 26 of the Dallas Police Archives, JFK Collection.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm
and Box 18, Folder# 5, Item# 25
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box18.htm
At the same time Revill is preparing a Report of the names and addresses of the TSBD employees, (within 30 minutes of meeting Hosty) he is also preparing a Report to Chief Curry on the Subject Lee Harvey Oswald 605 Elsbeth concerning meeting with James Hosty at 2:50 PM wherein Hosty tells Revill that the FBI knew that Oswald was a communist and that he was “capable of committing the assassination of President Kennedy.”
DPD Archives Box 18, Folder# 5, Item# 3.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box18.htm
It seems clear that the pipeline of information showing Oswald living at 1026 N. Beckley is not coming through Revill and Brian.
Steve Thomas
QuoteSteve Thomas
Steve Thomas
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Jack Revill's testimony before the Warren Commission (5H42)
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; from Detective E. B. Carroll or Detective Taylor.
Mr. DULLES. Are they subordinates?
Mr. REVILL. No; they are detectives assigned to the special service bureau. One of them works the narcotics squad and one of them is assigned to the vice unit.
Mr. DULLES. You never ascertained where they got it?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this might be the address that they got from Oswald, I do not know. I never even thought about it until you brought up the point that this is not the address.
Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can.
Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also.
Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour----
p. 47
The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you, again, lieutenant.
Mr. REVILL. I will attempt to find out on that address, and I shall let Mr. Sorrels know, with Secret Service.
Warren Commission Document# 948 is a memo from Sorrels to Inspector Kelley dated May 19, 1964. In that memo, Sorrels says that Revill contacted Sorrels and said that Revill told him he got the 605 Elsbeth address from Bob Carroll. As the driver of the car that took Oswald from the Theater to the police station, Carroll allegedly looked back over his shoulder and read the address off a Dallas Public Library card that had been removed from Oswald's billfold by one of the officers in the back seat.https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344#relPageId=2&tab=page
In their after-action reports filed with Chief Curry on December 3rd, neither Caroll (DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 73), nor Detective E.E. Taylor, Special Services Bureau, Narcotics Section (DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 81) make no mention of giving Revill Oswald’s address.
On top of all this, when the police did arrive at Beckley, they were looking for someone named Harvey Lee Oswald. The housekeeper, Earlene Roberts testified to the Warren Commission, that,
“Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it---who would forget that?
Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men---it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me.
Mr. BALL. What did they say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. And he says, "I don't know, I'll have to call the housekeeper," and he called me and I went and got the books and I said, "No; there's no one here by that name," and they tried to make me remember and I couldn't, and Mrs. Johnson come in in the meantime and there wasn't nobody there by that name, and Mrs. Johnson said, "Mrs. Roberts, don't you have him?" And, I said, "No; we don't, for here is my book and there is nobody there by that name." We checked it back a year.
Mr. BALL. And you didn't have that name you didn't ever know his name was Lee Oswald?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No---he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for Harvey Lee Oswald.http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm
CE 2003 located in (24H259) is the list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Jack Revill of TSBD employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. The Report submitted to Gannaway says it is coming thru Jack Revill. Page 3 of CE 2003, found on page 260, is signed by R.W. Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section. R.W. Westphal and P.M. Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau. Carroll and Taylor were also Detectives in that Bureau. W.P. Gannaway was the Captain and Revill was one of the Lieutenants.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
The list of TSBD employees reproduced in CE2003 can also be found in Box 5, Folder# 2, Item#101.
The index for this item says that this Intelligence Report was prepared by R.W. Westphal. The list shown in the DPD Archives is only page 1 of CE 2003 and shows the Warren Commission Exhibit page number, so it was included in the DPD Archives after the Warren Report.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm
Lieutenant Revill told the Warren Commission that he drafted his report within 30 minutes to an hour of when he and Hosty had their conversation in the basement (5H39). The list of employees and their addresses were drawn up by Westphal and Parks, but Revill said he got the address from Bob Carroll. If, for the sake of argument, Revill got the Elsbeth address from Carroll, where did the name Harvey Lee Oswald come from? That's not the name on the library card. Unless Revill or Westphal got the name wrong as well as the address.
Steve Thomas
Steve Thomas
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2 hours ago, Michael Walton said:
It's very simple. Go here and you'll see how he walked east from the TSBD, got on the bus, and the bus headed back to the TSBD to go to Oak Cliff. Traffic was snarled so he got a cab.
Not hard to figure out and nothing sinister.
Michael,
Yes, but my initial question was not "how", but "why.
Was he fleeing, or was he doing something else? And why that corner of Field and Elm? If he was walking just to catch any old bus, the McWatters bus wasn't the first bus he would have encountered, McWatters said that there were a whole bunch of buses tied up. And, if my memory serves me right, the McWatters bus wouldn't have taken him past his house on Beckley anyway.
We'll never really know.
Steve Thomas
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9 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:
Are you sure the power went off in the TSBD after the shooting?
Ron,
I had to smile. If you do a simple google search asking the question, "Did the power go off in the TSBD?", you see that people have been debating this for years.
It looks like it comes down to a matter of interpretation when Geneva Hine, who is alone in the second floor offices said,
" Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling..."
Was she talking about the lights in the building, or just the lights on her telephone?
And just because the motorcade was coming "near us", doesn't mean that people in New York or Wichita or Abilene would quit calling.
After she witnessed the assassination, she went back to her office and on the way,
Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.
Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?
Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.I wonder who "that girl" was.
I don't think you can dispute the fact that the elevators quit working though.
Steve Thomas
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7 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:
Are you sure the power went off in the TSBD after the shooting?
Ron,
I'm pretty sure. I'll have to back and research it, but I remember the testimony of a policeman or two who had to get off the elevator going up and use the stairs, 'cause the elevator stopped moving, and I think I remember a secretary saying that the power went off for about five minutes or so.
VICTORIA ADAMS, trying to get back into the building - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the (freight) elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
Jack Dougherty talks about using the "push button" elevator to come down from one of the upper floors after the shots, so it would have to be from the time Dougherty came down and Adams tried to go back up that the elevators quit working.
Steve Thomas
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I, along with a lot of other people over the years, have been puzzled by the idea that, after the assassination of JFK, Lee Harvey Oswald would leave the TSBD, walk several blocks east on Elm St., and catch a bus heading back west towards the TSBD and Dealey Plaza. This doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, unless...
What if Lee was trying to contact someone and let them know about the assassination? I know that the power went out in the TSBD right after the assassination. Did that include the telephones too? I seem to have a memory of one of the secretaries at the TSBD testifying to the WC that the phones went out too.
I was reading through the transcripts of the HSCA "Critics Conference" in 1977. This was a fascinating group of people that included, Sylvia Meagher, Mary Ferrell, Paul Hoch, Peter Dale Scott, Josiah Thompson, Gary Shaw, et.al and I ran across these references:
Transcript of HSCA Critics' Conference of 17 Sep 1977
Mary Ferrell, p. 206: Oswald got on the bus in front of the Rio Grande Building headed back toward Houston and Oak Cliff.
Gary Shaw p. 179: “Pat Russell, DeMohrenschildt's attorney officed in the same building with the Army Intelligence Fourth Division.”
Ms. Ferrell: “Up there in the Rio Grande Building? I didn't know that.”
The Rio Grande Building, 251 N. Field St. was a 297 ft. tall, 19 story building in downtown Dallas now known as the Rio Grande Life Building. The street address was changed to 249 N. Field St. It was one block north of Elm St.
https://www.emporis.com/buildings/118467/rio-grande-life-building-dallas-tx-usa
It has been demolished?
http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=40597
This is what I have come up with so far.
The Rio Grande Building was at 251 N. Field St. Oswald wrote to the INS at 251 N. Field in 1962 about June's citizenship status. She was classified as an "alien" and Lee wanted her status to be changed to a U.S. citizen.
The INS had an office at 1402 Rio Grande Building
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11246&relPageId=35&search=Rio_Grande Building
On April 1, 1964, Miss Brenda Route, Deputy Clerk, Domestic Relations Court, Dallas County, Texas, advised SA James Hosty...that on November 13, 1963, Mrs. Ruth Paine filed a petition for divorce from Michael Paine citing “cruel and tyrannical treatment” that made living together impossible. No action was taken, and after six months the matter was automatically dismissed by notice to the attorney, which in this case would be Raggio and Raggio, 734 Rio Grande Building, Dallas, Texas.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1199&search=Rio_Grande+Building#relPageId=50&tab=page
In her Orleans Parish testimony, Ruth said that it was the firm of Roggio and Roggio in the Rio Grande Building. Her lawyer was a woman.
The 112th INTC Region II office was at 912 Rio Grande Building.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96524&relPageId=59&search=Rio_Grande%20Building
James Powell's statement, April 12, 1996. Taken in California by Timothy A. Wray, ARRB Chief Analyst for Military Records
Powell: That's what the other agents were doing except for those that, there was always a staff in the building in this case the Rio Grande Building and there were probably three or four of those people there at the time when I had my time off. The other agents were just out doing their regular job.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=77654&relPageId=20&search=Rio_Grande BuildingThe owners of the Republic Investment Company, located at 848 Rio Grande Building were suspected of bookmaking operations in Dallas with close ties to Campisi and Vincent Marcello of New Orleans.
See also https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83307&relPageId=6&search=Rio_Grande%20Buildingconcerning an investigation of James Henry Dolan. Dolan was also connected to the people at the Republic Investment Company.
is a March 26, 1965 letter from Gordon Shanklin to Lieutenant Colonel Roy Pate of the 112th INTC at Room 912 of the Rio Grande Building referencing two copies of a letterhead memo on the Dallas/Fort Worth Minutemen Club. The letterhead memo is not attached. The referenced memo is a summary of a separate memorandum previously submitted.
(I only include this letter to show that the FBI was sharing information on the Dallas Minutemen with the 112th INTC)
William Kelly wrote in the Education Forum on Posted March 12, 2014 that the Secret Service had their office in the Rio Grande Building.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/21070-view-from-the-snipers-nest/#comment-285539
Jack White posted in the Education Forum on Posted August 7, 2006http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/7628-order-in-the-courts/#comment-71655
“The SS may have been in the "federal building/postal annex" on the
south edge of Dealey Plaza. I seem to remember that the FBI was
in the Rio Grande Building several blocks east of the plaza. Or maybe
it was vice versa.”
What if Lee Oswald went to the Rio Grande building looking for someone, couldn't find them, and got back on a bus to go back home?
(That's assuming the bus story is true. He could have gotten stalled in traffic, got off the bus, and hitched a ride with someone he recognized in a Rambler station wagon, or got in the Waley cab - if the Rambler story isn't true)
If anyone else has info on the occupants of the Rio Grande Building, I'd appreciate it.
Steve Thomas
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12 hours ago, Chris Newton said:
Hey Steve,
I've never seen any rent receipts either. Good catch.
Well Chris, it sort of begs the question.
If Oswald wasn't at the places the official record says he was, then where was he?
I've come to believe that the whole Mary Bledsoe, 621 Marsalis sojurn was a total lie. She testified to the WC on April 2, 1964 and based her testimony on notes that she had composed the week before. She said in her testimony, "I've forgotten what I was supposed to say".
If Oswald wasn't at Marsalis in the week after he moved out of the YMCA, where was he?
I've been toying with the idea that Marina lived on Neely, but Lee didn't, and that he was telling the truth when he denied to Fritz and Bookhout, et.al that ever lived on Neely. I've found three times where Marina said she was living on Neely in January. She corrected that later, but it makes me wonder. Ruth Paine said she visited Marina on Neely, but if my memory serves me right, whenever Ruth came there, Marina was there, but Lee wasn't.
The Tobias's spoke about a time when several men came to Elsbeth and moved Marina out, "for a while". They didn't know when she returned. George DeMohrenschildt talked about "taking Marina away" from Lee and said that they took her to several White Russian friends, but I don't know.
Steve Thomas
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I posted a thread on the Reopen the Kennedy Case Forum that postulated that we don't have rent receipts or a tenant registry for ANYWHERE the official record said he lived.
There aren't any for the Neely St. address.
The Tobias rent for receipts for the Elsbeth St. residence weren't entered into evidence.
The calendar page for October, 1963 was torn out of Mary Bledsoe's calendar,
Mr. Johnson forgot to bring the receipt book when she testified to the WC. All she had was a scrap of paper that had the name O.H. Lee on it.
And, I don't remember the Tobias rent receipts or the Beckley St. receipts listed among the evidence the Dallas Police turned over to the FBI.
Did I miss those?I have been looking, and to the best of my knowledge, aside from the YMCA logs for November, 1962 and October, 1963, I can't find tenant registers or rent receipts for ANY place Lee Oswald ever lived.
Unless I'm mistaken, we don't have any written verification that Oswald ever lived at any of the places the official record says he did.
Steve Thomas -
Thomas,
1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:Dear Paul,
IMHO, you need to be a bit more precise with your language.
Oswald (or an Oswald Look-Alike) didn't drive the Rambler station wagon away. He was driven away in it. Possibly by our buddy, David Sanchez Morales.
-- Tommy
FWIW, as the driver of the Rambler, my money is on Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro of the house on Harlandale fame.
On April 1, 1964 Roger Craig testified before the WC, and told them,
"Mr. BELIN - What about the man who was driving the car?
Mr. CRAIG - Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a thin white-looking Jacket..."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/craig.htmPull up a close-up picture of the "Dark Complected Man" sitting on the curb in Dealey Plaza during the assassination.
In 2014, Richard Douglas posted a series of photos of the Dark Complected Man in the jfkassassinationforum
here:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=da10693a75f6fceb0ce372badd010bff&topic=11687.0
Would you say that this man is 5'11", 158 lbs, has brown hair, wears dark glasses, and has a dark complexion?
The physical description provided above is not that of the Dark Complected Man, but of Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.
See 5/26/64 FBI Report of SA Wallace Heitman, page 5
http://www.maryferre...p;relPageId=223If you're interested, I once wrote an essay on a "Possible Rambler Lead" that you can read here:
http://stevethomas.weebly.com/
And this kind of ties in with what Paul has been saying. Bobby Joiner, who was arrested at the Trade Mart, said in a newspaper interview that some of the signs displayed at the Stevenson incident were stored at Walker's residence on Turtle Creek.
Raphel Quintana and Raoul Castro, officers of the Dallas Alpha 66 SNFE, told the FBI that they had attended the Stevenson incident.
Raoul Castro owned a Rambler and Quintana tried to get rid of the "Kill the Kennedy Klan" bumper sticker.
Steve Thomas
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10 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:
Steve,
Of course I'm only guessing -- but it seems to me that Oswald did not carefully plan that application. He got it on November 1st, 1963, and he had been in Dallas for a little over three weeks. He started at the YMCA, and he couldn't use that address. Then, his first rooming landlady kicked him out after a few days, and I think that took Oswald by surprise. When he finally got a job and a room and settled in Dallas, he hurried to get a PO Box.
Oswald had a PO Box in Fort Worth, in Dallas in early 1963, and in New Orleans. Oswald always had a PO Box -- not only to receive Communist literature secretly, as some people have claimed -- but most likely for underground conspiracy correspondence. Oswald was only pretending to be a Communist -- all these unexpected letters from Oswald to the CPUSA, the SWP and the Soviet Embassy in New York -- these were all a deliberate paper-trail.
But the significance of 3610 N. Beckley on Oswald's application for P.O. Box 6225 seems clearly related -- now that you mention it, Steve -- to the Coz-I-Eight apartments at 1306 N. Beckley during the two weeks from October 19 to November 3, 1962 -- because the digits are merely jumbled.
My guess is that this wasn't a code or a clue -- I think that Oswald was simply in a hurry to fill out his application, and he wanted a fake address, and 1306 N. Beckley came to his mind quickly, and he deliberately jumbled the address to 3610 N. Beckley. If it had been an error, or mere dyslexia, only two digits would have been reversed. But here the numbers are clearly shuffled.
So I believe this was a hasty but deliberate forgery of an address that Oswald knew good and well was not his new address on November 1, 1963.
It was like his name at 1026 N. Beckley -- O.H. Lee. It was close, but not identical. It was hasty, but even Marina would be fooled. Yet why wasn't Postmaster James Humes fooled? Humes testified that his clerk gave him Oswald's real address from his PO Box application -- but you proved that was false.
So -- there is the real clue -- that James Humes didn't tell the whole truth to the Warren Commission. That's where we want to start. What was James Humes' connection with the Minutemen? With Pinky Westbrook? With Jack T. Martin?
Regards,
--Paul TrejoPaul,
I'm sorry to have strayed so far from the original topic about the Jack Martin film. I didn't really mean to do that.
You wrote, "He started at the YMCA, and he couldn't use that address. Then, his first rooming landlady kicked him out after a few days, and I think that took Oswald by surprise."
The only witness in this case worse than Helen Markham is Mary Bledsoe. There was that whole false scenario about seeing Oswald on the bus after the assassination, and isn't there a fake police report out there about Ruby and Oswald getting into a fight at her rooming house where the police had to be called?
I don't trust a thing she says.
I see a pattern of Oswald going from the YMCA to North Beckley - twice. Once in late 1962 when he leaves the YMCA, disappears for two weeks and finally settles on Elsbeth. Gary Taylor is looking for him in the North Beckley neighborhood and believes him to be living at the Coz-I. The second time when he returns from Mexico, lives at the YMCA for several days, and goes looking for a place to live on North Beckley. It really makes me wonder if there wasn't something significant about that neighborhood.
You wrote, "My guess is that this wasn't a code or a clue -- I think that Oswald was simply in a hurry to fill out his application, and he wanted a fake address, and 1306 N. Beckley came to his mind quickly, and he deliberately jumbled the address to 3610 N. Beckley. If it had been an error, or mere dyslexia, only two digits would have been reversed. But here the numbers are clearly shuffled.
So I believe this was a hasty but deliberate forgery of an address that Oswald knew good and well was not his new address on November 1, 1963."
I guess that was my question. Why did 1306 N. Beckley "come to his mind quickly"? If he was deliberately trying to hide his identity, he could have made up any old address as his home address on the P.O. Box application. Why use that one, and then screw it up so badly? Having lived in that neighborhood in late, 1962, going to the laundromat, eating in restaurants, studying the bus schedules, possessing several maps of the Dallas area, he had to have known that Beckley didn't go out that far. So why draw attention to it, and do it in such a way that is easily discovered to be false?
It's weird.
Steve Thomas
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8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:
Steve,
Thanks for your viewpoint. I am comfortable regarding some rogue MI activity -- but not official MI activity.
The same with Military Intelligence. It was individuals who were personally attracted to the Radical Right --
As for the PO Box application with the phony address that LHO submitted -- IMHO LHO deliberately wrote a phony address. It is not a simple change of one number, as in normal errors or dyslexia. It's a deliberate jumble, IMHO. LHO was trying to hide from the world -- this is also why he registered at 1026 North Beckley as "O.H. Lee."
Regards,
--Paul TrejoPaul,
I agree.
As far as the "deliberate jumble", it's not a very creative one is it?
Or, is it a clue that was meant to be found?
Steve Thomas
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Paul,
For whatever it's worth, I believe that military intelligence had SOME kind of operation going on in Dallas.
But was it the 112th? or the Army Reserves via Whitmeyer, Lumpkin et.al? or the 507th Army Security Agency?
I don't know. They all had different chains of command and reporting requirements; but I believe that there was SOMETHING going on.
That's a nut I haven't been able to crack.
Steve Thomas
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13 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:
Doug,
Thanks for the tip about Pinky Westbrook. IMHO, the USA was at least as divided in 1963 as we are today. The Right and the Left were miles apart. Men who were in World War Two and in the Korean War would retire from the US Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines, and would often become radicalized by groups such as the Minutemen.
FBI Agent James Hosty, in his book, Assignment Oswald (1996), said that his main job in Dallas was to track the Radical Right. He said that Ex-General Walker (the only US General to actually resign in the 20th century -- not retire, but resign and forfeit his Army pension) was the leader of the Minutemen in Dallas.
James Hosty worked with an ATF Agent named Jack Ellsworth, who told the FBI and the Warren Commission that "the most likely persons to murder JFK were General Walker and the Minutemen." That is a matter of record.
Jack T. Martin was a member of the Minutemen. Was Pinky Westbrook a member of the Minutemen?
For example -- how did the Dallas Police Department know that LHO was living at 1026 North Beckley, when Roy Truly only had Ruth Paine's address in Irving as LHO's address? I used to think that was easily answered by Dallas Postmaster James Humes, who had the North Beckley address in LHO's PO Box application -- but Steve Thomas showed me that LHO had deliberately written the wrong address (3610 North Beckley) in that application!
Yet James Humes called the DPD with the actual address of LHO on North Beckley within 90 minutes of the JFK assassination. We still don't know how. The best explanation, therefore, would be some sort of careful conspiracy by the DPD along with underground operatives -- perhaps in Military Intelligence. Possibly Pinky Westbrook. I'll look deeper into him. Or perhaps boys in the Minutemen, like Jack T. Martin, had extra roles.
Again -- Ex-General Walker was a leader among the Radical Right from coast to coast, and among the rightists in Dallas, Walker was a hero -- not a crazy old man.
In the same context of knowing where LHO lived on the day of the JFK murder, we must also remember the WC testimony of his landlady, Earlene Roberts, who said that a DPD police car she did not recognize drove up to her rooming house and tapped the horn quickly -- 'tit-tit' -- just like that, only a half-hour after the JFK assassination, while LHO was still changing clothes.
So, it seems clear that somebody in the DPD knew exactly where LHO lived only minutes after the JFK assassination. Who was it? Was it Pinky Westbrook? Was it somebody like Jack T. Martin?
Regards,
--Paul TrejoPaul,
The significance of 3610 N. Beckley on Oswald's application for P.O. Box 6225 would only relate to Gary Taylor's WC testimony that he thought Oswald was living at the Coz-I-Eight apartments at 1306 N. Beckley during two weeks of October 19 - November 3, 1962 when Oswald went "missing".
So far, I've found three instances where Oswald transposed numbers:
1) The P.O. Box number stamped on the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets in New Orleans,
2) The home address listed on his P.O. Box application for Box 6225,
3) The social security number he wrote down on his Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall job application.
Are these the result of:
1) haste?
2) sloppiness?
3) a medical condition?
4) deliberate obfuscation?
I think we ought to look at every number Oswald ever wrote down.
As far as knowing how the police first learned of 1026 N. Beckley, my conclusion was that that information came from military intelligence. See:
Steve Thomas
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If you have some money you want to invest, invest it in prisons and crematoriums.
I lived in Colorado for a while. By the time I left, land in Vail was costing $1,000,000 an acre. People living in Vail can't afford to bury their dead. They have to ship the bodies out of Vail to a town called Minturn.
Never underestimate the capacity for man' inhumanity to man.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/philippines-duterte-drugs-prisons_us_582495bee4b01019814da067
Steve Thomas
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4 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:
I heard somewhere on the news tonight that there's an online petition to get the electoral college to vote for Clinton.
Imagine it happening. Would that be a Constitutional crisis or what?
Or dare I say civil war?
Ron,
I've been reading up on the election of 1800. The election went to the Electoral College and the College tied. The decision got bumped up to the House of Representatives where it took them 35 ballots over several days to decide in favor of Thomas Jefferson.
Interesting times.
Steve Thomas
PS: If I understand it correctly, the Electoral College can elect anyone. I personally would like to see them draft Michelle Obama. She seems to be the most respected person in America right now. But that's just my personal opinion.
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4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:
It seems to me that if Trump or his surrogates were talking about business deals, or talking about how to influence the election or policy after, then that is quite different than what JFK and Nikita were doing.
James,
That is what I was talking about. It seems like the Trump/Putin talks, or mutual admiration society, or whatever you want to call it, is more like hammering out business deals, or "spheres of influence" as we used to call it; while the Kennedy/Krushchev talks were more about how to prevent nuclear war.
I'm thinking that the right wing of today sees communism as dead, and views Putin as just another right wing business mogul - who they can recognize and relate to.
In the 1960's, conflicts were more ideology driven, now it seems to be more business driven - or maybe I'm just being naive, and it was always business driven.
In the trifecta of U.S./Russia/Chinese struggle, the alliances are constantly shifting. I think we are heading toward a U.S./Russia alliance vs. China world map. Our right wing of today seems perfectly okay with Russia annexing the Crimea and the Balkans, while we scrap NATO alliances and free-trade agreements.
(This isn't really relevant I suppose, but I was reading about the General's Putsch in Algeria in April of 1961, and, if you read their memoirs, I was struck by the Generals' belief that the real danger of communism sweeping through North Africa and the Middle East wasn't Russian communism, but Chinese). We think the fall of The French at Dien Bien Phu was the height of French anti-communist effort, but France had more armed forces fighting in Algeria (more than 400,000) than in Vietnam. Fully half France's armed forces were committed in Algeria.
(And again, I suppose I'm rambling, but - between the Bay of Pigs, the Generals' Putsch in Algeria, which spread to mainland France, and the Secret War in Laos, which one commentator called the "most bombed country in the world", April, 1961 was a pretty hairy time.
See "The Secret War in Laos" here:
According to this web site, the War in Laos was entirely driven and financed by the CIA. Totally similar to what was going on in Cuba.
According to the Office of the Historian, Bureau of Public Affairs
United States Department of State
"The first foreign policy crisis faced by President-elect John F. Kennedy was not centered in Berlin, nor in Cuba, nor in the islands off the Chinese mainland, nor in Vietnam, nor in any of the better-known hot spots of the Cold War, but in landlocked, poverty stricken Laos."
Steve Thomas
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What would be the difference between back channel communications between Trump and Putin and between Kennedy and Krushchev?
I suppose the intent would be one.
It strikes me that the right wing would have been up in arms if they knew about Kennedy talking to Krushchev - they already had Wanted for Treason posters out and about.
But today, it doesn't seem to bother the right all that much.
How times have changed.
Steve Thomas
Who is "Draskovitch"?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Does anyone know who the person referred to in this memo is?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=136379#relPageId=2&tab=page
Steve Thomas