Steve Thomas

Ofstein and Oswald

I believe in the possibility of coincidences as much as the next guy, but there are some coincidences that are kind of eerie. In this area, there are several that I can think of:

• Oswald and Ofstein were the same age. They were both born in 1939

• They both worked at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall

• They were both referred to JCS by Louise Latham at the Texas Employment Commission

• Ofstein went through the Monterey School of Language and the possibility exists that Oswald may have as well.

DENNIS HYMAN OFSTEIN

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/ofstein.htm

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was in the Army, sir.
Mr. JENNER And when did you go in and when were you discharged?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I went in in August, I believe, in 1957, and I was discharged November 1960.

Mr. JENNER Did you take any work in the language school out in California at Monterey?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What language did you study there?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian.
Mr. JENNER Tell me how that came about?
Mr. OFSTEIN Well, when I went in the service I was interested in radio--I was a disc jockey at the time, and the closest thing my recruiting sergeant said that I could get to radio would be possibly with the Army security agency, so I signed up, and after basic training I went to Fort Devens, Mass., and was held there on a temporary status while the agency determined what type training I should have, and I was given a language ability test and passed that and had a choice of three languages to take, and Russian was my first choice and I was sent to Monterey to study.

This sounds pretty benign, almost like he was a radio disk jockey in the army...except for a couple of things which I'll get into later.

I was puzzled by the term “Army Security Agency” and the fact that the “Agency determined what type of training I should have”. More on that later.

Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in Dallas at the present time; I was born in St. Louis and I have lived in Florida for the most part of my life.
Mr. JENNER. And are you a married man?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived in Dallas?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. You were already employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall when Lee Oswald came there, were you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes sir.

Mr. JENNER. And how long had you been employed there when Lee Harvey came with the company?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was hired in March, 2 years ago, 1962--I would say approximately 9 months.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when he came about approximately when?
Mr. OFSTEIN. October 1962.

Mr. OFSTEIN. For the past 2 years I have been with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as a cameraman.
Mr. JENNER As a cameraman?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was your work immediately prior to that, by whom, were you employed?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was working for Sinclair Refining Co. at a local service station.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Ofstein was discharged in November, 1960 and had lived in Dallas for three years. So almost immediately after being discharged, he relocates to Dallas where he takes a job working in a gas station?

When George de Mohrenschildt first visited Haiti in 1956, he was working for the Sinclair Oil Company.

Department of State Incoming Telegram No. 013865, Dec. 19, 1963, House Select Committee on Assassinations (contained in JFK Document No. 009963)

de Mohrenschildt would help Oswald get a job at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall in 1962.

Now, I don't know many Sinclair Service Stations there were in Dallas in 1961 and 1962. I've asked the Dallas Historical Society if they can provide one.

A Bob Johnston from the Dallas Historical Society Forum wrote me and said, “I do know of one other on Hampton Road during that time that my cousin by marriage, J. H. "Red" Bland, owned, but that's it.

And, another one

former Sinclair station

622 N Haskell Ave
Dallas, TX

In recent years, this former Sinclair station has housed several restaurants. It is now home to the MaD Foodery restaurant. The decorations on top of the columns are not part of the original station design.

inclTexas Sinclair Gas Stations

http://www.roadarch.com/gas/txsinclair2.html

Haskell is way out on the northwest side of Dallas

However, there was another one also, and wouldn't this be ironic if this is where Ofstein worked?

(There was a Sinclair Service Station at 1820 N. Beckley in Dallas)

At 12:45 PM on November 22, 1963 Gene Andre Guinn, age 31 of 636 Lacewood was arrested along with the Joiners for picketing at the Dallas Trade Mart. Guinn was a member of the White Indignant Citizens Council. . Guinn was also suspected of printing the “Wanted For Treason” leaflets.

According to the Mary Ferrell Chronologies, “Guinn runs for political offices and seems to be a right winger” (He ran for City Council in 1965.) His address would be in Police District 84, which Officer Tippitt had been assigned in the past. This street is near O'Bannon street where Mrs. Stella Jacob lives. She formerly lived at 508 S. Marsalis and she works at the TSBD.”

In a handwritten note to the Guinn citation, Ferrell adds, “He owned Sinclair Station, 1820 N. Beckley; member of hate group; did Rockwell's printing?”.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40392&relPageId=183&search=Gene_Guinn

Jack Revill wrote a memo to Captain Gannaway about the subversive groups under surveillance prior to Kennedy's visit.

Dallas Municipal Archives and Records Center : Box 13, Folder 4, Item 52

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/27/2705-002.gif and

jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/.../Poster%205.doc

“The only demonstrators observed at the DALLAS RADE MART were members of the INDIGNANT WHITE CITIZENS COUNCIL. Six of those individuals were taken into custody shortly after knowledge of the assassination became known. This step was taken to prevent theses persons from being assaulted by spectators at the scene. The arrested persons of this group are as follows:

BOBBY JOINER

RAYMOND LEE JOINER

GARY DWAYNE JOINER

ROY EUGENE JOINER

GENE AURORA GUINN

WILLIAM L E CUMMINGS”

(I have seen his name spelled Gene Andre Guinn, Gene Audra Guinn, and Gene Aurora Guinn).

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was laid off by Sinclair Refining Co. and I registered with the Texas Employment Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Did anybody in particular handle that over there at the Commission?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall who the person was at the time.
Mr. JENNER. A lady or a gentleman?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name Latham--Louise Latham trigger any recollection?
Mr. OFSTEIN. The name is familiar--whether she was there or not--I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Is that name familiar in connection with the Texas Employment Commission?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Out of the blue, Jenner asks Ofstein if he knew Lousie Latham.

John Graef testified before the Warren Commission on March 30, 1964.

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--I'll have to recall as best I can.
“In about October 1962, as director of our photographic department we found ourselves in need of another man, so at this time I called the Texas Employment Commission and spoke to them about sending me someone having as close as possible the abilities that might work out in our photographic department.”

”Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what you told her in that connection, as best as you can reconstruct it, giving us her name--it was a her?
Mr. GRAEF. “I believe I remember--yes--Louise Latham”. “They have a larger pool to draw from, so I called--in the course of my dealing with them they have various departments and in the course of dealing with them, I became familiar with one person.” “... So, I called this person repeatedly--after the first call or two--this has gone on now over several years and she knew the type person I was looking for and the type of experience that I was looking for, so I called her, and her name was Louise Latham.”

Mr. JENNER. Where had you learned to decipher Russian characters?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I learned this while I was in the service.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you stationed?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was stationed in Germany for the active part of my tour. I was stationed in California for my training and at the various and sundry other little towns for basic training and temporary status.
Mr. JENNER Did you take any work in the language school out in California at Monterey?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What language did you study there?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian.

Mr. OFSTEIN Well, when I went in the service I was interested in radio--I was a disc jockey at the time, and the closest thing my recruiting sergeant said that I could get to radio would be possibly with the Army security agency, so I signed up, and after basic training I went to Fort Devens, Mass., and was held there on a temporary status while the agency determined what type training I should have, and I was given a language ability test and passed that and had a choice of three languages to take, and Russian was my first choice and I was sent to Monterey to study.
Mr. JENNER. And how long were you at Monterey?
Mr. OFSTEIN. One year.
Mr. JENNER. And was that entire year spent in the study of the Russian language?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I assume, with an entire year's study at that special school of Monterey, you acquired a facility with the language, did you?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Not as well as I should have; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And why was that?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was a little on the young side then and I was interested in other things and the freedom to leave the post and go to town and the availability of recreation there deterred my studies.
Mr. JENNER. I see you acquired some facility in reading Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And some facility in speaking Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was this conversational Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir
Mr. JENNER. What about writing Russian?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; all that was covered.
Mr. JENNER. And at the end of the 1 year what happened?
Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent to an oversea duty station in Germany and completed my tour there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your study of the Russian language at anytime from the time you left Monterey until the present?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Only in little--what you might say, self study in spurts.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I interrupted you--you told him you could handle few characters?
Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you then tell him about your study of the Russian language when you were in the Army?
“Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he asked me where I had learned it and I told him I had picked it up during the time I was in the service, as well as the German language, which I picked up while I was stationed in Germany,...”

So, Ofstein spends a year studying Russian, and also picks up German while he was stationed in Germany.

William Kelly in the Education Forum Posted 27 July 2006 - 05:24 AM

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7527

“...a number of other figures did spend time there, including Ralph Meyers, the son of Ruby's friend Larry Meyers. Ralph was Army Security Agency,

JFKcountercoup

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2011/09/monterey-language-institute-presidio.html

Dick Russell, in The Man Who Knew To Much wrote: The official record on Oswald makes no mention of his having received official tutelage in any language during his Marine years. However, at a Warren Commission executive session whose minutes were declassified in 1974, chief counsel J. Lee Rankin is quoted saying of Oswald: “We are trying….to find out what he studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages.” (This was an Executive Session on January 27, 1964).

California’s Monterey School, where Ricahrd Nagell had received his own extensive language training, was still quite active when Oswald was stationed in California in 1959...

In Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald
http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html
It is noted:

However, Lee Oswald wasn't trained in Russian, and his military file discloses no such training. Several of his fellow Marines recalled Oswald teaching himself Russian, and he apparently requested to take a written examination to test his knowledge. The examination is part of Oswald's USMC file, and no attempt was made to conceal it from the Warren Commission. The existence of the exam was voluntarily disclosed to the Commission during the deposition of Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom of the Marine Corps's Personnel Department, Records Branch.(23)

23. Warren Commission Hearings, Vol. VIII, p. 307. There has been speculation that Oswald attended classes at the Army's Monterey Language School (now the Defense Language Institute), fueled by a statement of Lee Rankin, chief counsel to the Warren Commission, that the Commission was looking into a rumor that Oswald had attended classes at the school. The Commission investigated the matter and concluded that Oswald had not studied there. As author Gerald Posner notes, Monterey was not an intelligence facility, and its records show that Oswald never attended a single class there. (Gerald Posner, Case Closed [New York: Random House, 1993], p. 63.)

The Career of Lee Harvey Oswald

By Jeremy Bojczuk

http://22november1963.org.uk/the-career-of-lee-harvey-oswald

The Warren Commission appears to have heard, from sources not yet publicly identified, that Oswald had received instruction from the Defense Language Institute: “We are trying to run that down to find out what he studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages” (Warren Commission Executive Session, 27 January 1964, p.192). He had spent about three months at a marine base not far from Monterey: Warren Commission Document 113. According to the portion of his Marine Corps record that has been made public (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, pp.656ff), Oswald had been tested in the Russian language while in the marines, which implies that he had been taught Russian while in the marines. Needless to say, foreign language tuition and testing were not normally part of Marine Corps life. Oswald had no significant knowledge of any other foreign language.

The WC Executive Session was on January 27, 1964

Folsom testified on May 1, 1964

This was four months later. While Folsom makes no mention of Oswald attending the Monterey School, it would seem that that the Warren Commission could have resolved that question between January and May

WC testimony of Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom, on May 1, 1964 (WC VIII) p. 307 concerning a Department of the Army Russian exam given to Oswald in February, 1959.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=315&tab=page

Colin Crow:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=11247.25;wap2

“OFSTEIN said this statement aroused his suspicions and he asked Sgt. TOM CRIGLER, who is employed with the U. S. Army Recruiting Station, Dallas, and is a resident of the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, regarding this. He said he told CRIGLER he had run into a fellow at work who had spent some time in Russia and he wondered if the FBI should run a security check on him inasmuch as he, OFSTEIN, did not want to jeopardize his own status for any possible future security clearances in the event he ever returned to the U. S. Army."

The problem with the above is the fact that Sgt. Tom Crigler told the FBI that Ofstein contacted him in August, 1963. Five months AFTER Oswald had left Jaggars. Why would Ofstein suddenly want the FBI to run a check on Oswald in August, 1963 when he allegedly hadn't seen the guy in five months? Why would Ofstein be concerned about "future security clearances" a minimum of five months after Oswald had spoken to him about "microdots" and three months before the assassination? Why did Ofstein say it was the "microdot" conversation that pushed him into the Crigler meeting but fail to mention the meeting was in August?

Ofstein also states that Oswald gave him the details of his P.O. Box address in Dallas and that he sent a letter to it after Oswald had left the company asking (AGAIN) if Oswald and his wife wanted to visit his house for dinner.”

On December 9, 1963 Thomas Crigler was interviewed by the FBI. He said that he met Olfstein “accidentally” on the street.

See FBI interview of Crigler December 9, 1963:

CD 205 p. 478

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=481&tab=page

Thomas H. Crigler, Jr., 1705 McAdams, advised he is currently a Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army Security Agency, Field Representative, assigned to U.S. Army Recruiting Station, Dallas. He advised that he and Dennis Ofstein were assigned to the same U.S. Army branch in Europe and that he knew Ofstein from about June, 1960 to December, 1960 purely as another person attached to the same unit with him. He said that he had never become socially or well acquainted with Ofstein at that time. He said the caption of their group was the 507^th USASA Group, Heilbron, West Germany.”

However, he said later in his FBI interview that about a week after meeting Ofatein in the street in August, Ofstein and his family came to Crigler's house, and that twice mor he and his wife visited Ofstein at his (Ofstein's) house.

In researching the 507^th UASA Group:

https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/ASA%20Europe/USAREUR_ASAE.htm

I”n contrast to Vietnam where airborne COMINT was playing a significant role in the 1960s, there was no need for airborne COMINT assets in Europe where the ASA collected COMINT via a well-established network of fixed Field Stations.”

“Our mission was communications monitoring and intercept “

According to Wikileaks the Army Security Agency:

“The Agency existed between 1945 and 1976 and was the successor to Army signal intelligence operations dating back to World War I. ASA was under the operational control of the Director of the National Security Agency (DIRNSA), located at Fort Meade, Maryland; but had its own tactical commander at Headquarters, ASA, Arlington Hall Station, VA.”

“Composed of soldiers trained in military intelligence, the ASA was tasked with monitoring and interpreting military communications of the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, and their allies and client states around the world. The ASA was directly subordinate to the National Security Agency and all major field stations had NSA technical representatives present.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Security_Agency

These are two very interesting websites. Many of the men went through the Language School at Monterey. They were on the front lines of the East/West tensions at the height of the Cold War in Germany. Their job was to monitor, intercept and translate Russian and East German military radio traffic:

https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/ASA%20Europe/USAREUR_ASAE.htm

In May 1951, HHC, 502nd Communications Reconnaissance (Comm Rcn) Group was activated at Ft. Devens, MA. The unit received orders to move to Germany in June 1952. Upon arrival in Europe, the Group was assigned to HQ ASA, Europe and ordered to Badenerhof Kaserne in Heilbronn. The 502nd was probably further attached to the Seventh Army and assigned the mission of providing signal intelligence and security support to the field army and its subordinate units. At this time, the 502d Group also assumed control of the 302d and 307th Communications Reconnaissance Battalions which were already in country.

On 15 October 1957, the 502nd ASA Gp was redesignated as 507th USASA Gp.

The 507^th reported directly to Headquarters USA Europe.

see also:

http://www.picturetrail.com/bennettpics

Paul Mowrey, Det K-1, Coburg, 1957-58:

https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/ASA%20Europe/USAREUR_ASAE.htm

“The primary mission at Coburg when I was there was intercepting Russian and German voice traffic, mostly tank units in some phase of their training cycle. I was part of about 10 students who graduated from the ASA Voice Intercept School in Feb, 1957. After the surge in traffic from the Hungarian Revolution and perhaps to attain more central control over what is going on, the Army decided to upgrade Russian language transcription services. This effort was headed by CWO Owen Yates in the 502nd (GP) in Heilbronn.

All transcription material from Lübeck, Bahrdorf, Coburg, and Passau came to Heilbronn to be checked or cross referenced. After we gained some experience we were sent out to the 302nd and 307th.”

So, Ofstein went to the Monterey School of Languages where he studied Russian for a year, and knew German which he had “picked up while he was in Germany” working for a military unit who job it was to intercept and translate Russian and East German military radio traffic.

Ofstein deserves a closer look, and I'd like to see his military records to see what his Unit and military designation was. Things don't seem quite so “benign” now.

Steve Thomas

Roger,

You wrote:

"It seems that Oswald was being run by many different parties"

It was John Martino who said, "Oswald didn't know who he was working for..."

While I think Oswald was "lent" to the FBI, you have to place this in the context of the antagonism that existed between the FBI and the CIA. While the CIA was sending "someone" down to Mexico City, Hoover was saying (paraphrasing), "Our men have listened to the tapes and seen the pictures of the guy down there, and he doesn't match the man the Dallas Police have in custody."

While the CIA was running a fake defector program in Russia, Hoover was putting out reports that someone else was using Oswald's birth certificate.

While the CIA was doing everything it could to arm and train anti-Castro exiles, Hoover and the FBI were being ordered to shut the training camps down, seize arms caches (Lake Pontchartrain), and stop the maritime raids out of Florida (like Interpen and Alpha 66).

When Tom Huston was trying to overhaul the U.S.'s domestic intelligence programs under the Huston Plan, it was Hoover that refused to sign on.

As far as Oswald being ONI, I'd invite you to read up on the Army Spy Scandal and Senator Sam Ervin's Subcommittee Hearings on Constitutional Rights.

In my personal opinion, that was really scary stuff.

It was Colonel Folsom, in his WC testimony who said,

Mr. ELY - I am a little curious about Keesler Air Force Base. Is that under the auspices of the Air Force rather than the Marine Corps?
Colonel FOLSOM - Yes; it is an Air Force School.
Mr. ELY - And do people from all branches of the service get trained there?
Colonel FOLSOM - Yes; we have cross training with all the other services.

It is alleged that Oswald attended the Monterey School of Languages. That was an Army Intelligence School.

I think there was a lot of "cross training".

Steve Thomas

Might be a good idea to get this thread back to its starting point -- WAS OSWALD AN INTELLIGENCE AGENT?

The question has a built-in ambiguity -- it can mean, "was Oswald EVER an Intelligence Agent," or it can mean, "was Oswald an Intelligent Agent in the USA?"

This might be overly simplistic, and it probably is.

But I think using disaffected servicemen in fake defections to Russia was CIA.

Once Oswald arrived back in the US, he was handed off to the FBI as a somewhat still usable asset..

The domestic war against the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and the use of agent provocateurs to disrupt subversive groups in the COINTELPRO program was FBI.

Steve Thomas

Maybe Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After The Fact 1967 or her WC Index published in 1965?

Sylvia Meagher's book was one of the first books I ever read on the subject. I was stunned to learn that the evidence in their own 26 volumes didn't support the conclusions presented in the Commission's Report. That stuck with me all these years.

Steve Thomas

Glenn,

you're probably way too young to remember this, but in the 60's - (hell in the 80's, remember Mother's Finest, "Baby Love"?) - "my baby" meant "my man." or "my baby's daddy." "or my deadbeat, lazy-ass husband..." but you get the point.

or it could have meant "my son." my mom would use it when I was due for yet more cheek-pinching humiliation.

You're right.

Steve Thomas

Vince,

I fixed it--you CAN now click on the image to enlarge it. NOTICE THE CHERAMIE LISTED--ANY RELATION TO ROSE CHERAMIE???? GET JIM DIEUGENIO ON THIS!

I immediately wondered the same thing, but I don't think so.

1) Rose Cheramie apparently told Lt. Francis Fruge that she was enroute to, among other things, "pick up her baby"

I don't think that Al Cheramie was a baby.

2) "Rose Cheramie" was an alias for Marcades.

As an aside, Fruge's deposition to the HSCA on April 18, 1978 is referenced in the Staff Report in Volume X of the HSCA Appendix volumes.

Does anyone know how to see his actual deposition?

Personally, I find it very hard to find my way around around the HSCA documents and files.

Steve Thomas

V

When a youth, I sometimes fired my dad's .22 rifle.

The pop of the firing was not very loud.

Jack

I've often wondered if the first shot, or couple of shots were from a .22 and that's why so many people interpreted them as firecrackers.

Steve Thomas

This is just a question. I haven't done any research on this, so I don't know.

Apparently, both Jean Hill and Beverly Oliver claimed to have seen a figure on the grassy knoll. How do the physical descriptions of this person compare? Was he wearing the same kind or color of clothes? Was he wearing a suit and tie? Was he bareheaded, or was he wearing a hat?

Some day, it would be interesting to sit down and compare the physical descriptions of the person or persons encountered by Ed Hoffman, Julia Mercer, Gordon Arnold, Lee Bowers, Malcolm Summers, etc.

If I remember right, the person described by Julia Mercer seemed to fit pretty closely with that described by Lee Bowers.

Steve Thomas

Chris,

Did the SS ever make an attempt to identify those two agents? The SS could have determined which of their agents was there simply by asking all of them so why do we not have witness statements from these two.

Warren Commission Exhibits 767 and 768 are Winston Lawson's Preliminary and Final Survey Reports for the Dallas trip. These are in Volume XVII of the WC Hearings and Exhibits. They list the Dallas Post Assignments for the various Secret Service Agents. see:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=657&tab=toc

In his WC testimony, Lawson said that there were 28 SS Agents assigned to the Dallas motorcade.

Mr. LAWSON. Detectives, 40; department of public safety uniformed, 40; rangers, 5; plainclothes, 16; Dallas County Sheriff Department, 14; fire department, 26; the White House detail agents, 20; agents from the Vice President's detail, 4; agents from the Dallas office, 4.
Mr. STERN. So there were 28 Secret Service agents involved?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lawson.htm

The one person who I would have thought would be in the best position to look at where people were, would be SS Inspector Thomas Kelley, but I can't find where he was asked about possible Agents on the knoll either in his WC or HSCA testimony.

He told the WC that:

Mr. KELLEY. As an inspector, I am part of the chief's headquarters staff. I conduct office inspections of our field and protective installations, and report on their actions to the chief.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/kelley1.htm

He told the HSCA that:

Inspector KELLEY. The chiefs office directed me to proceed to Dallas, Tex., to assist Mr. Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office, to assist him in finding out what had happened at Dallas, what were the events surrounding the assassination, and to coordinate any investigation that might be conducted by the Secret Service concerning the assassination.
Mr. MATTHEWS. And you arrived in Dallas, Tex., that evening?
Inspector KELLEY. That evening.
Mr. MATTHEWS. Upon your arrival, did you understand that your responsibility was to conduct a criminal conspiracy investigation?
Inspector KELLEY. No. Actually, at that time it was to find out exactly what happened and what the role of the Secret Service had been in that tragedy there.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/hscakell.htm

You can find a Secret Service Duty Roster for the Texas Trip done by Vince Palamara here:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/palamara/ssrosters.html

Of the SS Agents who were supposed to be there, I think you can find reports from just about all of them concerning their whereabouts and activities. There are only three that I know of that are missing.

In a February 15, 1999 article entitled “Conspiracy Beliefs (and Denials) In High Places”, author Vince Palamara quotes an article by reporter Earl Golz in the August 27, 1978 issue of the Dallas Morning News. In his article, Golz wrote that one Dallas Secret Service Agent named Elmer Moore did not submit a report, that he was in San Francisco and did not return to Dallas to join the investigation until a week later. Vince Palamara then went on to say that two other agents did not submit a written report: James H. “Mike” Howard and Charles Kunkel. Palamara wrote, “For his part, Howard claimed in a lecture in February 1999 that he was at the Hotel Texas cleaning up when the shooting occurred and that Kunkel was in Washington, D.C on an unspecified investigation at the time. Howard and Kunkel's whereabouts remain unverified.”

Palamara, Vince. “Conspiracy Beliefs (and Denials) In High Places.” 2/15/99, As cited in the Kennedy Assassination Homepage, 1995-2002 by John McAdams, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/beliefs.htm

Of the Secret Service Agents who weren't specifically assigned to Dallas, I don't know if every agent in the Service was polled to determine their whereabouts on November 22nd

If you're interested, I'd invite you to read an essay I did one time called "Secret Service, On the Knoll and Beyond" here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=12084

Steve Thomas

Hi Steve,

According the Sharper’s statement, shortly after the shooting, a white male entered the Dal-Tex building by the freight entrance and asked to use the phone. Sharper took the man to the third floor and brought him back down about seven minutes later. Sharper described the man as “30 to 35, attired in a light colored overcoat and a light colored felt hat.”

This doesn’t sound like a description of Larry Florer. The youtube video below is apparently of Florer being taken in for questioning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWl4dFch6uk

In the video, Larry Florer is pointing out and talking to another young man. I can’t help wondering who he is.

Tom

Tom,

Thanks. I realized my mistake almost as soon as I hit the send button.

It has also been mentioned that it was Jim Braden who Sharper pointed out to the police. I don't know how Braden was dressed.

See Mary Ferrell's database entry for Braden here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/marysdb.php?id=1388

Steve Thomas

According to Will Fritz, someone, whose name he could not remember gave him Oswald's Beckley address before he began interrogating Oswald:
(WC 4H207)

Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.

(WC 4H210)

Mr. Ball. Was there anything said about where he lived?
Mr. Fritz. Where he lived? Right at that time?
Mr. Ball. Yes
Mr. Fritz. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived, but I am not too sure about that – just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn’t live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.

Will Fritz's Interrogation Notes:

http://www.jfklancer.com/Fritzdocs.html

1^st Interview November 22^nd:

Present Were:

B.O. + James Hosty

Jame W. Bookout

(B.O. is identified seperately from James Bookout)

Will Fritz's WC testimony concerning his 1^st interview at 2:20 on November 22nd

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm

Mr. BALL. Who was present when you talked with him?
Mr. FRITZ. At that time, when I first brought him in there there would be Sims and Boyd and probably one or two officers from the office, I am not sure, just who else might have been there. I know those two, I am sure, I believe those two were there. Just about the time I started talking to him, I had just started to question him, I got a phone call from Mr. Shanklin, Gordon Shanklin, agent in charge of the FBI calling for Mr. Bookhout, and I asked Mr. Bookhout to go to pick up the extension.
Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Bookhout there?
Mr. FRITZ. He had just come into the lieutenant's office and Mr. Shanklin asked that Mr. Hosty be in on that questioning, he said he wanted him in there because of Mr. Hosty knowing these people and he had been talking to them and he wanted him in there right then.

So, I got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office and asked Mr. Bookhout to come in, the reason I asked both of them to come in and Mr. Bookhout is in my office most of every day and works with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with Mr. Hosty.
Mr. BALL. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was anyone else present?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not.

2^nd Interview November 23^rd 10:35 – 11:34

Present Were:

T.J. Kelly

Robert Nash

Grant??

B.O. and myself

Boyd + Hall

B.O. asks about Heidel selective service card – admits having- would not admit signature – wouldn't say why he had it.

Will Fritz's WC testimony concerning the 2^nd Interview on November 23rd”

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm

Mr. BALL. What do your records show as to the first time you talked to him on November 23?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see....

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I have it. I show 10:25 a.m.
Mr. BALL. 10:35?
Mr. FRITZ. 10:25.
Mr. BALL. 10:25 a.m.?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at this time? Still-look at your notes there.
Mr. FRITZ. I show here Jim Bookhout, Forrest Sorrels, special agent in charge of Secret Service, Robert Nash, who is U.S. marshal there in Dallas, and an officer besides myself.
Mr. BALL. What officer beside yourself?
Mr. FRITZ. I have that in here.

(Mr. Ball never gets back to that in his questioning.)

In Fritz's Interrogation Notes of the 23^rd, he says that B.O. asked Oswald about the Hidell ID.

http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/fritz4-5.jpg

He wrote that Oswald admitted having the card, but says that Oswald would not admit to having signed it.

WC testimony of James Bookhout:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bookhout.htm

Mr. STERN - What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there any pattern to his refusing?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would refuse to discuss.

You can find a copy of James Bookhout's Reports on the Interrogations of Oswald in Appendix XI of the Warren Report here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=643&tab=page

In his Report on the Interrogation of Oswald of the 23^rd, he says that Dallas Police Officers F.M. Turner and Billy Senkel were present, but I think he confused them with Officers, Hall and Boyd.

On page 623 of this Appendix, Bookhout talks about Oswald and the Hidell ID card, but does not specifically say who asked Oswald about it.

Kelley's Report of interview on November 23^rd

^{https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29105}

Present were:

Jim Bookhout

Will Fritz

Forrest Sorrells

Robert Nash

and three unidentified officers of Will Fritz's detail

(If it were Hall and Boyd who were present, who was the third unidentified officer?)

In his Report of the Interrogation that can be found in Appendix XI of the Warren Report here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=650&tab=page

Kelley says that it was Officers Hall and Boyd who were present, but in this Report, he doesn't mention a third officer. He said that it was Fritz who showed Oswald the Hidell Selective Service card and that Oswald refused to answer questions about the card put to him by Fritz and Bookhout.

Elmer Boyd's WC testimony concerning the 1^st Interview:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/boyd.htm

Mr. BOYD. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there---I don't recall who all was there--I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office and he talked to him in there.
Mr. BALL. Tell us about what time of day that was?
Mr. BOYD. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And who was there in the room with Oswald at that time?
Mr. BOYD. With Oswald at that time?
Mr. BALL. You took Oswald into Fritz' office about 2:20?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was there besides Oswald?
Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz, and let me see, there was some FBI agents.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Mr. BOYD. I know one came in just shortly thereafter and I remember Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty came in right after Ave got in there.
Mr. BALL. And who else was there?
Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall and Mr. Sims; M. G. Hall is our other partner.
Mr. BALL. He's your other partner?
Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Sims was there, and was there a Secret Service man in there?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see---I think there was a Secret Service man there, but I don't recall---I don't know what his name was.

Concerning his second interview on November 23^rd:

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work the next day--that would be November 23.
Mr. BOYD. I think I got in around 9 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. BOYD. I arrived at 9:30 and I stayed around the office until 10:25 and Mr. Sims, Hall, and myself went up and got Lee Oswald out of jail again and brought him down to my office.
Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that?
Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you brought him down to your office?
Mr. BOYD. Well, Mr. Fritz and the FBI and Mr. Robert Nash, the U.S. marshal, and Mr. Kelley of Secret Service were in Captain Fritz' office at .that time.
Mr. BALL. Who else was in the office?
Mr. BOYD. Let me see---I believe Mr. Sims and Hall, and Captain Fritz were there.
Mr. BALL. Now, Sims said he didn't stay there.
Mr. BOYD. Well, he came back out after we got him down there that's right.
Mr. BALL. You stayed there, didn't you?
Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Report of M.G. Hall's activities on November 23^rd:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/09/0942-001.gif

At 10:25 AM, November 23, 1963, Sims, Boyd and I checked Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz's office for questioning. Cap't Fritz, F.B.I. Agent Bookout, Secret Service agent Kelly. U.S. Marshal Nash, Boyd and I were in the office at this time.

In his WC testimony, Sims also says that he left and Hall stayed for the interrogation.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/sims.htm

Mr. SIMS. We checked at 10:25 a.m.--we checked--Boyd and I checked Lee Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for questioning.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. SIMS. And that was all.
Mr. BALL. And yourself?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I believe it says here "Boyd and Hall stayed in the office during the interrogation."
Mr. BALL. You weren't in there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

I'm curious about this person with the initials B.O. who was present at the interrogations on both the 22nd and 23rd, and who would have questions about the Hidell Selective Service card.

I've gone through the Personnel Roster in Batchelor's WC Exhibit 5002 here:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

and I just don't find a DPD Officer with the initials B.O., especially someone high enough up that he would have access to Will Fritz in Homicide.

Several years ago I had a discussion with someone who suggested that B.O. Was FBI Agent Bardwell Odum, but I don't think so. I've never seen anything that suggested that he was there, and besides, in his WC testimony, Fritz identifies him as “an officer”, suggesting a police officer, rather than “agent” as in FBI agent.

On two occasions, Fritz refers to a Police Officer that he either refuses, or is reluctant, to identify.

So, do we have a Mystery Police Officer?

Steve Thomas

WILLIAM SHARP: W/M, 7479 Detonta St., Dallas

-

was arrested in the Dal-Tex building,

"without a good excuse" (time:12:45)

-Sharp had been detained

by an unknown no.

of uniformed Dallas officers

-J.R.Leavelle than took charge of Sharp and

took him to the Sheriff's office

-

what happened next to Sharp is unknown

(20H499)

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/A%20Disk/Arrests%20Suspects%20Dallas/Item%2011.pdf

Steve Thomas

Sorry. This was a miscue.

His name was actually Sharper. There is an FBI interview of Sharper by William de Brueys taken on January 22, 1964. He was an elevator operator in the Dal-Tex Building, and may be the man who pointed out Larry Florer to the police. (Florer was actually the man who was in the Dal-Tex Building "without a good excuse".)

You can find Sharper's interview in CD 385 p.16 here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10786#relPageId=21&tab=page

Steve Thomas

Richard,

Steve, I'm not sure, but this could be linked to Leavelle's Texas accent. There is a 3439 "Daytona Dr" in Garland, TX.

Thank you, but the Detonta address comes from Leavelle's own written report, not a verbal one.

This could be the result of a transcriber's error by the stenographer who typed the report, I don't know.

I'm just surprised that no Dallas researcher seems to have followed up on this, or there doesn't seem to be a story by somebody who says, "Hi, my name is X Sharp and my father, William Sharp once told me a story about having been picked up by the Dallas Police on November 22nd..."

I think I may be getting a little closer. There is in fact a 3439 Detonte St. in Dallas

http://www.geographic.org/streetview/view.php?place=Detonte%20St,%20Dallas,%20tx,%20USA

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3439+Detonte+St,+Dallas,+TX+75223/@32.7818877,-96.7534247,14z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x864ea26daff71383:0x1420015f1ab17052!8m2!3d32.7818832!4d-96.7359099

That area is all residences.

Steve Thomas

Chuck,

Anna Bisaro wrote this article on William Sharp:

William Shapr... had sold the mail order rifle Lee Harvey Oswald reportedly used to kill the president.

Thank you for your reply.

However, this raises a couple of questions...

I became aware of the William Sharp, who was a gunsmith for Kleins Sporting Goods, but was he the William Sharp, residing on Detonta St. in Dallas?

And if so, was he in the Dal-Tex Building on November 22nd?

If he's the same person, doesn't this seem a little hinky to you?

There also was a William Sharp of Dallas, who was involved in the oil and gas industry, but it seems mostly in Louisiana,

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dallasmorningnews/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=90716087

which might make sense if he was in Dallas visiting the Dallas Uranium and Oil Company, which had offices in the Dal-Tex Building; but if was visiting there, why does Leavelle's after-action report say he was there "for no good reason"? (DPD Archives, Box 5, Folder# 5, Item# 30)

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1518-001.gif

(BTW, I think the address on Detonta St. is 3439 as per Leavelle's Report, but a Google Map search fails to find either a 3439 or a 7439 Detonta. It doesn't pull up any street named Detonta).

Was there any connection ever established between the William Sharp who was arrested in the Dal-Tex building and either Jim Braden or Larry Florer?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

Pat,

Pat,

Some years back, while browsing through the Dallas JFK archives, i realized that there were no handwritten, signed, and dated copies of the numerous "Reports on Officer's Duties" subsequently published by the Warren Commission. These reports, as published, moreover, were all typed-up. It seems clear then that at the very least someone took all the handwritten reports written by the Dallas Police and typed them up, correcting them for spelling errors. When one reads these reports, for that matter, there is a consistency of tone and style that suggests these reports were actually written by one man, some time after the shooting itself.

I'm sorry.

You were right, and I was wrong.

If you look at Box 3 of those files as you referenced, and again at Box 5, Folder 5, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

it seems readily apparent that these Reports were done on the same typewriter, by the same person, in the same manner.

I have no idea who that person was.

You might be interested in the WC testimony of Reserve Officer Kenneth Croy.

You can find a copy here.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/croy.htm

Look especially on pp. 198 and 199.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which we have marked Exhibit 5052, which is a copy of a letter that you prepared for Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, was that prepared down in the police department, or was that prepared at one of your business offices?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=408&tab=page

Mr. CROY. That was prepared at the Dallas Police Academy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. CROY. On Shorecrest back of the northwest substation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that prepared by hand?
Mr. CROY. Yes, it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you responsible for getting the typing done?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that report over to?
Mr. CROY. Captain Solomon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then was it his responsibility to get the typing done?
Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just turned it in. What he did with it, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it eventually come back to you?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The typed copy never came back to you?
Mr. CROY. No.

Captain Solomon was Croy's Supervisor.

The Reports were typed up by a stenographer.

Now, in Croy's case anyway, I don't think the DPD's establishment was happy with his initial statement, and they made him come back and do another one. (Personally, I think they wanted to prove that Ruby was already in the basememt).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mr. Croy, why didn't you mention in this report, dated November 26, your seeing this man you believe to be Ruby?
Mr. CROY. Why didn't I mention that in there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CROY. Because at that time Captain Solomon told me that there would be another report made and I would have to go downtown to the city hall before a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the time being, and put this in this other affidavit that you have, that this right here was just basically to find out where we were in the city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then when you prepared this other statement on December 1, who called you and how did you come to go before Notary Public A. L. Curtis?
Mr. CROY. He is a lieutenant. After I signed it, I took it there to be notarized by him.

Mr. CROY. What it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it up. Then the next day I went back down there and they re-read it to me and went over and over and over and over the same thing over and over again. And then I took it into Lieutenant Curtis and signed it and had it notarized.

Steve Thomas

WILLIAM SHARP: W/M, 7479 Detonta St., Dallas

-

was arrested in the Dal-Tex building,

"without a good excuse" (time:12:45)

-Sharp had been detained

by an unknown no.

of uniformed Dallas officers

-J.R.Leavelle than took charge of Sharp and

took him to the Sheriff's office

-

what happened next to Sharp is unknown

(20H499)

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/A%20Disk/Arrests%20Suspects%20Dallas/Item%2011.pdf

Steve Thomas

Pat,

Some years back, while browsing through the Dallas JFK archives, i realized that there were no handwritten, signed, and dated copies of the numerous "Reports on Officer's Duties" subsequently published by the Warren Commission. These reports, as published, moreover, were all typed-up. It seems clear then that at the very least someone took all the handwritten reports written by the Dallas Police and typed them up, correcting them for spelling errors. When one reads these reports, for that matter, there is a consistency of tone and style that suggests these reports were actually written by one man, some time after the shooting itself.

I'm sorry.

You were right, and I was wrong.

If you look at Box 3 of those files as you referenced, and again at Box 5, Folder 5, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

it seems readily apparent that these Reports were done on the same typewriter, by the same person, in the same manner.

I have no idea who that person was.

Steve Thomas

Pat,

Shortly after Ruby shot Oswald in the basement of the Dallas Police headquarters, a small group Dallas Police Lieutenants were commissioned by Curry to find out, among other things, how Ruby got into the basement. This Committee was headed by Lieutenant Paul McCaghren. Jack Revill was also part of that group. They were also tasked to find out if Ruby and Oswald knew each other. This Committee lasted for about a month, or a month and a half and all their work was turned over to Curry. Unlike the Warren Commission, they worked in veritable secrecy, but you will find, I believe, that much of the Warren Commission's work was predicated on the work that this small group of DPD officers did. I also believe that all of these reports that you see filed with Curry in the DPD Archives came about as a result of that Committee's work.

You can find reference to this internal working committee here:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/mccaghr.htm

You'll notice that most of these Reports are dated in the first week of December or so.

In his testimony to the HSCA, Jack Revill identified the members of this internal investigation. They were:

Captain REVILL. "This particular committee was comprised of In* spector Herbert Sawyer, Captain Westbrook, Capt. O.A. Jones, myself, a Lt. Paul McCaghren, Lt. Frank Cornwall, Lt. Cecil Wallace, and initially a detective, one of my subordinates in the intelligence unit, H.M. Hart, and as I said, it was our function to investigate the shooting of Mr. Oswald by Mr. Ruby."

One of the things that struck me is that none of these guys were from the Homicide and Robbery Bureau (which was headed by Fritz). They were drawn from places like the Burglary and Theft or Forgery Bureaus, or from Criminal Intelligence. Here you have a murder of someone in the Dallas Police basement, but you don't assign the investigation of how that happened to the Homicide Bureau.

I don't think that Curry and Fritz liked each other, and I don't think Curry trusted Fritz all that much.

Steve Thomas

Pat,

Some years back, while browsing through the Dallas JFK archives, i realized that there were no handwritten, signed, and dated copies of the numerous "Reports on Officer's Duties" subsequently published by the Warren Commission. These reports, as published, moreover, were all typed-up. It seems clear then that at the very least someone took all the handwritten reports written by the Dallas Police and typed them up, correcting them for spelling errors. When one reads these reports, for that matter, there is a consistency of tone and style that suggests these reports were actually written by one man, some time after the shooting itself. From what I can gather, the first appearance of these reports is in CD81, which was not provided the Warren Commission until 1-7-64. It seems clear to me, then, that someone within the Dallas PD cleaned up and re-wrote all the original reports over the month of December 1963, and that the original reports were then destroyed.

I believe this person was T.L. Baker. Baker's own report was quite long, so he was clearly a bit of a wordsmith. When testifying before the Warren Commission, moreover, he was asked if he edited CD81-b, in which these reports were first provided the commission. His answer was quite interesting, IMO. He said "Something like that."

In any event, I've been looking for some sort of corroboration that these reports were in fact written by Baker, or anyone else, and have struck out. Does anyone remember this being discussed elsewhere, and anyone's reaching a similar conclusion? Or even someone's shooting it down?

Shortly after Ruby shot Oswald in the basement of the Dallas Police headquarters, a small group Dallas Police Lieutenants were commissioned by Curry to find out, among other things, how Ruby got into the basement. This Committee was headed by Lieutenant Paul McCaghren. Jack Revill was also part of that group. They were also tasked to find out if Ruby and Oswald knew each other. This Committee lasted for about a month, or a month and a half and all their work was turned over to Curry. Unlike the Warren Commission, they worked in veritable secrecy, but you will find, I believe, that much of the Warren Commission's work was predicated on the work that this small group of DPD officers did. I also believe that all of these reports that you see filed with Curry in the DPD Archives came about as a result of that Committee's work.

You can find reference to this internal working committee here:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/mccaghr.htm

You'll notice that most of these Reports are dated in the first week of December or so.

One of the clues, I think, is that these reports are all addressed to Chief Curry, some by way of an intermediary like Jack Revill or Captain Gannaway, and some addressed to Curry directly.

How many ordinary patrolmen address their Report of Duties directly to the Chief of Police? Normally I think they would address their written Report to their Supervisor like a Sergeant, Lieutenant or Captain. For example, in his December 3rd Report to Curry, Paul Bentley wrote that after turning Oswald's ID over to Lt. Baker, he then went to his Supervisor, Captain Westbrook to make a report of Oswald's arrest. (I don't know if Bentley's Report to Westbrook was written or verbal, but if it was written it would be interesting to read.)

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/06/0638-002.gif

One thing I have looked for is whether they were done on the same typewriter or not. Are they single spaced or double spaced?

As far as the similar appearance in tone and style, I'm sure that that the DPD officers received some kind of training in how to write up Reports. I think that's what you see reflected here.

Steve Thomas

In John Armstrong's analysis of the Harvey and Lee story, a picture emerges of two Oswald's: one kind, respectful, and gentle with kids. The other: belligerent, truculent, and obnoxious.

Steve Thomas

Hi, Steve,

Interesting idea, but I’m not sure where your description of the two Oswalds’ character distinctions comes from.

Jim,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I have read Harvey and Lee. I've read excerpts from it over the years, but not the whole work itself.

The descriptions I mention come from a variety of places.

These are from WC testimonies:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

Mr. WOOD. (Sterling Wood. 13 year old son of Homer Wood)

“The man out at the rifle range had a mean, stern face. You could tell he was a cold man, and that is what made me look at him more than I did anybody else. So when I saw the picture on television that night, I was sure it was him.”

Mr. PIZZO. (sales manager at the Lincoln Mercury dealership where “Oswald” took a test drive)

“Me too. So, I kind of said, "Are you kidding us or what? You either have his name or you don't." He said, "Well, Frank, don't you remember?" I said, "I don't remember." He said "I brought him to your office and you said he needed $200 or $300 down, and I said, "Yes, I guess I remember." He said, "Well, you should remember because when I took that man for a ride he drove like a wild man, and besides we had Gene Wilson's car and Gene got mad because we used up all his gas." He said, "He drove so fast, he scared. the daylights out of me. Don't you remember me coming back and saying how mad I was?"

FBI Report of an interview with Dobbs House waitress Mary Dowling:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11759&relPageId=3&search=Mary_Dowling

“ He was nasty and used curse words in connection with his order” (on November 20, 1963)

The Kittrell interview you cited.

I contrast this with the man who left money with Marina and told her to make sure to get the baby (June) some new shoes, and the man Buell Wesley Frazier described as enjoying playing with the children on the front lawn.

My thought is this:

If you are going to set somebody up to take the fall, as Joseph Milteer told Willie Sommersett, and that "slouchy, unkempt"

"nasty, curseword-using," "wild" man" is impersonating Oswald, are there occasions when that person signed Oswald's name, and what does that signature look like?

Steve Thomas

I don't know, maybe this has been done before, and I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but do you know if anyone had done a correlation study between the person signing Oswald's name and the behavior of the person doing the signing at the time?

Handwriting experts claimed that in all times, various documents that bore the signature of Lee Harvey Oswald were signed by the same person.

Below are examples of L.H.O's signatures.

1) Application to the Cosmos Shipping Co., New Orleans dated 8/6/63 WC Exhibit 774 (17H)
2) Affidavit of Support addressed to American Embassy dated 1/17/62 WC Exhibit 775(17H)
3) Application for a New Orleans Public Library Card WC Exhibit 777 (17H)
4) Application to the A.C.L.U. WC Exhibit 783 (17H)
5) Application for P.O. Box 2915 dated 10/9/62 WC Exhibit 792 (17H)
6) Change of Address card for P.O. Box 2915 dated 5/12/63 WC Exhibit 794 (17H)

I personally think that there is a difference in the transition from the O to the s in the word Oswald.

In John Armstrong's analysis of the Harvey and Lee story, a picture emerges of two Oswald's: one kind, respectful, and gentle with kids. The other: belligerent, truculent, and obnoxious.

Steve Thomas

Katzenbach wrote this memo by hand on the evening of Sunday 24 November, a few hours after Lee Harvey Oswald had been shot dead by Jack Ruby. A typed version was prepared the following morning and sent to Bill Moyers, an assistant to President Johnson.

http://22november1963.org.uk/katzenbach-memo-moyers-warren-commission

I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to inconsistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials."

Steve Thomas

The thing that struck me was, how did Katzenbach know, two days after the assassination, what the FBI report was going to say, and how did he know that it was going to be inconsistent with what the DPD was saying?

I guess it goes back to the motive part in Katzenbach's memo: "Speculation about Oswald’s motivation ought to be cut off..."

At its heart, JFK's assassination boils down to a murder mystery, and in any given murder investigation, you have to satisfy the three basic requirements of means, motive, and opportunity. Supposedly Oswald had the means and the opportunity, it was the motive that was in question.

I know that Bill Alexander wanted to indict Oswald for murder "in furtherance of an international conspiracy", and that Henry Wade freaked when he heard that (see his WC testimony here: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/wade.htm).He said, "Well, on that score it doesn't make any sense at all to me because there is no such crime in Texas, being part of an international conspiracy, it is just murder with malice in Texas, and if you allege anything else in an indictment you have to prove it and it is all surplusage in an indictment to allege anything, whether a man is a John Bircher or a Communist or anything, if you allege it you have to prove it.

So, when I heard it I went down to the police station and took the charge on him, just a case of simple murder."

How did Katzenbach know on the 24th what the FBI report, which had not yet been written, was going to say?

Steve Thomas

Katzenbach wrote this memo by hand on the evening of Sunday 24 November, a few hours after Lee Harvey Oswald had been shot dead by Jack Ruby. A typed version was prepared the following morning and sent to Bill Moyers, an assistant to President Johnson.

http://22november1963.org.uk/katzenbach-memo-moyers-warren-commission

"It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy’s Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now....

I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to inconsistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials."

Can anybody think off the top of their head what some of those inconsistencies might have been?

Steve Thomas

I've always been puzzled by the idea that Oswald traveled the 10 or 12 blocks from N. Beckley to 10th and Patton in only a few minutes (if you believe he left N. Beckley shortly after 1:00 and Tippitt was shot at 1:10 at the earliest and 1:16 according to the official record), and yet it took him the better half of a half an hour to go the six blocks from 10th and Patton to the Texas Theater.

Leaving aside for the moment whether Burroughs sold him popcorn at 1:15, or that Oswald sat next to Jack Davis at the theater earlier than that:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Unspeakable/TwoLHOs.html

The police dispatch tapes reports him ducking into the Theater at 1:44 PM.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

If it wasn't Oswald at the Theater, then who was running around Oak Cliff in that half an hour, and why would it take him so long?

Steve Thomas

Well, I can see the three empty cartridges being cleaned of fingerprints before he departed the 6th floor (I know, John, I know; much simpler just to stick them in his pocket, right? LOL) but the one that puzzles me is the live cartridge that was found in the chamber of the rifle by the DPD. Did he wear gloves while loading the cartridges into the clip?

Also, what about fingerprints on the clip itself? It apparently did not fall out of the magazine until the rifle was halfway to DPD headquarters. How did he wipe the prints off of it?

Robert,

According to Day's WC testimony, both the empty shells and the live round were tested for fingerprints, and no prints at all were found.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/day1.htm

Mr. DAY. Were taken, I processed these three hulls (found at the TSBD) for fingerprints, using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what exactly you did in testing those hulls for fingerprints?

Mr. DAY. I used fingerprint powder, dusted them with the powder, a dark powder. No legible prints were found.

Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints.

Mr. DAY. There was one other article released with this, an envelope containing the three negatives I made of the prints on the side of the magazine housing of that 6.5 rifle, which I did not definitely identify as belonging to Oswald.

While, in his testimony, Day refers once to the clip, he does not specifically say he dusted it for prints. He mentions testing the side of the magazine housing and all other metallic surfaces, but not specifically the clip.

Mr. BELIN. Do you carry any equipment of any kind with you when you go there?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. We have a station wagon equipped with fingerprint equipment, cameras, containers, various other articles that might be needed at the scene of the crime.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Lieutenant Day and I answered the call.

Mr. BALL. What equipment did you take with you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We took our camera and fingerprint kits and our truck. We have a truck that is equipped with all that stuff - a station wagon.

W.E. Barnes first reported to the TSBD, but when the report came over that Tippitt was shot, he was dispatched there. He had the equipment for doing so, and said he tested Tippitt's car for prints, but does not say he tested the shells for prints.

In Poe's WC testimony he says that he gave the hulls to Barnes of the Crime Search Section.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the hulls?

Mr. POE. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene.

Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package?

Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges.

Mr. BALL. To the crime lab?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

I wonder if the "crime lab" that Poe refers to was the station wagon that Day and Studebaker mention.

I haven't seen any reference so far that the live shells found in Oswald's revolver, or the live shells that were supposedly found in his pocket were tested for prints.

Just as an aside, I wonder who the guy in the brown jacket was, seen by "6 or 7 witnesses", fleeing the scene of Tippitt's shooting by running away east (in the opposite direction of the Texas Theater) up the alley between Tenth and Jefferson.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/21/2195-001.gif

Steve Thomas