Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:
PS: I once spent a while trying to find out who the Secret Service agent was who was present at Oswald's first interrogation at 2:20 in the afternoon. Something like six different policeman report one as being there, but never identified who he was.
I just read that Lawson, in a police car, led the motorcade that took jfk from Parkland back to Love Field at 2:14 PM, so it couldn't have been him. I didn't know that.
CE 1026 page 814
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=828&tab=page
Steve Thomas
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24 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:
Steve,
For informational purposes only, I had a look through the Bugliosi book Four Days In November to find the time that he first mentions each of those names on the list, here are the results...
Mr. Kelley (Thomas J) first mentioned Sat 23d 10:35am (at interrogation of Oswald)
William H. Patterson only mentioned Friday 22nd 6:20pm (attempting to track down Brennan by phone)
Roger Warner first mentioned Sun 24th 4pm
Winston Lawson only mention (after Oswald has been taken in to custody) Fri 22nd 7:50pm (with Brennan at line up)
Mike Howard first mentioned Sat 23rd Noon
Charles Kunkel first mentioned 23rd 3pm
John Howlett first mentioned Sun 24th 12:50pm (consoling Robert Oswald)
Dave Grant only mentioned Sat 23rd 10:35am (at interrogation of Oswald)Alistair,
Have you ever read Winston Lawson's Report? The only place I can find it is a CD-ROM here:
http://www.paperlessarchives.com/jfk_assassination_secret_servi.html
Steve Thomas
PS: I once spent a while trying to find out who the Secret Service agent was who was present at Oswald's first interrogation at 2:20 in the afternoon. Something like six different policeman report one as being there, but never identified who he was.
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20 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:
Steve,
Yeah I think you are right there. According to Sorrels WC testimony too it seems like all he did was enlist the help of William Patterson to track Brennan down, but it was someone else who went and picked Brennan up and brought him in. Could it have been Winston Lawson that brought Brennan in? Would kind of make sense as to why he was with Brennan at the line up.
Alistair,
Thanks, but I don't think it was Lawson. Sorrels said he "sent" an agent to pick up Brennan. I don't that Sorrels would be "sending" Lawson anywhere. If anything, it would be one of the agents under Sorrels' direct command, like one of the guys from the Dallas office. Patterson said that there were five or six Dallas agents sitting around DPD Headquarters waiting around to see if there was anything Sorrels wanted. I think it was one of those, but I don't know which one.
And, if you read Lawson's testimony, he was only asked if there was anything unusual about the lineup. He didn't say who was there.
There is a listing in the Dallas Police Archives of the Secret Service personnel who assisted in the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald. These names include:
Forrest Sorrels
Mr. Kelley
William H. Patterson
Roger Warner
Winston Lawson
Mike Howard – whose actual name is James H. Howard
Charles Kunkel
John Howlett
Dave GrantIndex Page, by an unknown author. Index page from notebook containing an inventory of information related to the investigation of the assassination and related cases - under index letter "s", (Original), date unknown. Dallas Police Archives Box 6 Folder # 1, Item# 72: as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box6.htm
I would look in the Reports by some of the others besides Lawson and Kelley.
Steve Thomas
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29 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:
Ian Griggs did some great research on this and its all in his book No Case to Answer. Basically there never was a special Brennan line up per se....Brennan was brought into one of the DPD line ups, don't remember which one. At that point he failed to give a solid ID on Oswald and was simply taken home with no record being made. That's from memory but someone with Ians book handy should be able to give all the details; he also presented on this at Lancer many years ago.
Larry,
Thanks. Ian and I talked about this years ago. Yes, it was a "special lineup" right after the one with the Davis sisters at 7:55 on Friday evening. I just got to wondering who was there. This is very strange to me. From what I can gather, no members of the Dallas Police Department attended. Here you've got a guy claiming to be an eyewitness to the shooting, and no one from the Police Department was there to watch him identify the assailant. That would never have stood up in a court of law would it? There were six members of the DPD who supposedly were there for the Davis sisters, although two of them: Moore and Hall said in their after-action reports that they didn't even attend that one.
Mr. MOORE. Well, I helped answer telephones mostly for, oh, I don't know, until the time I went out to North Beckley to search Oswald's room.
Mr. BELIN. At 1026 North Beckley?
Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe that is right.
Mr. BELIN. About when was that?
Mr. MOORE. I am going to guess around 6 or so in the evening. The notes may show a little closer time.Mr. BELIN. All right. About how long did you stay out there?
Mr. MOORE. Hour and a half, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. MOORE. We drove back to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. Now I assume then that you went through the property and marked it, and what have you. This took a little bit of time?
Mr. MOORE. Yes; it did.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that day that has anything else to do with the assassination of the President or the Tippit murder that you can think of offhand?
Mr. MOORE. No.H.M Moore's Report Box 3, Folder# 10, Item# 11
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm
After bringing the property back from 1026, he inventoried it.
Nothing about attending any lineup at all Friday evening.
Hall's Report Box 3, Folder# 7, Item# 2, page 2.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm
Nothing about being in any lineup at all Friday evening.
Was not interviewed by the WC
Brown, Sims, Boyd and Dhority all wrote Reports, but make no mention of Brennan's lineup. Brown and Dhority took the Davis sisters home after their lineup.
It's just very weird.
Steve Thomas
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4 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:
Just did a quick search for Lawson's testimony and found this;
Mr. STERN. When did you next see Oswald?
Mr. LAWSON. I recall seeing him in another room in homicide headquarters with a couple of plainclothes people and their talking to him. I saw him later in the evening, perhaps 9:30, 10 o'clock, when he was brought down to a showup room, because we had information that a gentleman had seen someone at a window, and so----
Mr. STERN. Do you know who that was, the witness?
Mr. LAWSON. I do not know; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. Could it have been someone named Brennan?
Mr. LAWSON. The name doesn't mean anything to me. Mr. Sorrels had sent an agent out to bring him down to police headquarters to talk to him, and he informed us he had seen someone in the window, but he had also seen Lee Oswald on television in the meantime, and he didn't know of how much, value he would be.
Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about whether he thought----
Mr. LAWSON. He could not say yes or no, whether Oswald was the individual or not.
Mr. STERN. Did you notice any irregularity in the way the showup was conducted?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did it seem like a normal one to you, the size of the people?
Mr. LAWSON. I didn't notice any irregularity.Addition, the name of the person Sorrels sent to pick up Brennan was, I think, William Patterson.
Alistair,
Thanks, I was looking at that too.
Sorrels had William Patterson calling around trying to find Brennan, but I'm not sure he was the agent Sorrels sent to pick him up. I was reading through Patterson's testimony to the Church Committee here: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1431&search=Patterson#relPageId=25&tab=page
from around pp 12 onwards
He talks about attending an interrogation of Oswald, but doesn't say anything about attending a lineup. He said there about 5 or 6 agents from the Dallas office sitting around the DPD Headquarters in case Sorrels needed anything. He also didn't write up a Report, so I just don't know. He mentioned Roger Warner as being around, but I haven't gone back to see what Warner might have said.
Steve Thomas
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I guess this has been talked about to death, but I was just a little curious about who was present when Brennan was confronted with Oswald.
I've gone through the lineups in the DPD Archives, and the only place I found one was in Box 6, Folder# 1, Item# 73, page 3.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box6.htm
Mr. McCLOY. Were you present at the showup at which Brennan was the witness?
Mr. FRITZ. Brennan?
Mr. McCLOY. Brennan was the alleged----
Mr. FRITZ. Is that the man that the Secret Service brought over there, Mr. Sorrels brought over?
Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether Mr. Sorrels----
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I was present but I will tell you what, I helped Mr. Sorrels find the time that that man--we didn't show that he was shown at all on our records, but Mr. Sorrels called me and said he did show him and he wanted me to give him the time of the showup. I asked him to find out from his officers who were with Mr. Brennan the names of the people that we had there, and he gave me those two Davis sisters, and he said, when he told me that, of course, I could tell what showup it was and then I gave him the time.
Mr. McCLOY. But you were not present to the best of your recollection when Brennan was in the showup?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe I was there, I doubt it.Mr. Sorrels. And when they came down there with him, I got ahold of Captain Fritz and told him that the witness was there, Mr. Brennan.
He said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up."So I took Mr. Brennan, and we went to the assembly room,
So when we got to the assembly room, Mr. Brennan said he would like to get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the distance away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting took place as he could.
And I said, "Well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we can move up forward."
They did bring Oswald in in a lineup.He looked very carefully, and then we rooted him up closer and so forth
Mr. STERN - How many other people were in the lineup?
Mr. SORRELS - As I recall it, there were five. In other words, all told there was five or six--I don't remember. I believe there were five.(At the 7:55 PM lineup with the Davis sisters, there were four people in the lineup)
In their WC testimony, neither C.W. Brown or C.N. Dhority make any mention of this lineup with Brennan and Sorrels. They were the police officers with the Davis sisters at 7:55 PM. Brown attended all four of the lineups. Fritz had to ask Sorrels who was there and to find out from his Officers who was there.
So, who was the “we” that Sorrels talked about?
Steve Thomas
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10 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:
Chuck,
A number of ARCOMS were grouped together to form an (MI) or (MIG) Military Intelligence Group , like the 4th Army or the 5th Army Group.
Chuck,
I'm sorry. I mis-spoke. At the time, the Reserve MID's or Detachments were not grouped together into Groups the way the Active Army Groups were.
When Col Robert Jones testified before the HSCA, he identified himself as the Operations Officer of the 112th Military Intelligence Group.
When Lt. Col. Mark A. Miles retired in 1972, he was awarded the Legion of Merit upon his retirement at Headquarters, 5th Army. The medal cited Miles' service since April 1970, as deputy commander of the 112th Military Intelligence Group at 5th Army.
These were Active Army
At this point, I am confused.
SAN ANTONIO EXPRESS, Wednesday, March 4, 1970
"The 112th Military Intelligence Group is located here (San Antonio) and was the operation which relayed information to the Data Bank for the 112th Army area although it is not part of the 4th Army."
The King Alfred Plan and 112th Military Intelligence Group
San Antonio Light, October 6, 1972
Lt. Col. Mark A. Miles has been awarded the Legion of Merit upon his retirement at Headquarters, 5th Army. The medal cited Miles' service since April 1970, as deputy commander of the 112th Military Intelligence Group at 5th Army.http://coldcaseupdate.blogspot.com/search/label/112th%20MI%20Group
However, in a January 24, 2014 article by Ruth Quinn on the 112th's deactivation on January 29, 1993, she writes, “The 112th began its existence way back in 1946 as the 112th Counter Intelligence Corps detachment in Dallas, Texas and was assigned to the Fourth Army. At the time, the detachment consisted of 16 officers, six warrant officers, and 26 enlisted men. The mission was counterintelligence in the Zone of the Interior (inside the United States) in a region that included New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas.”
https://www.army.mil/article/118745/112th_MI_Brigade_Inactivated__29_January_1993/
I think that intelligence matters were funneled through the 4th Army.
The 112th was Active Army.
The Army Reserve Detachments on the other hand, were autonomous and suffered from what was described as "benign neglect". The Command Structure was confusing. They were under the oversight of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) or the Army Intelligence Agency (AIA) but under the operational control of their parent headquarters, such as the 4th Army or 5th Army. The 488th reported to the DIA.
See:
Reforming Military Intelligence Reserve Components
1995 - 2005
by Colonel Thomas R. Cagley
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a233391.pdf
Steve Thomas
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8 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said:
There is a thread on this website on Whitmeyer. For your convenience, here is a blurb off of "Sparticus":
In 1956 Jack Alston Crichton started up his own spy unit, the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment in Dallas.
Chuck,
Thank you. I'm learning a little more about the 488th.
I know about the Spartacus website and the Wikipedia entries, but I'm trying to dig a little deeper. For instance, these entries regurgitate this same line, "
"In 1956 Jack Alston Crichton started up his own spy unit, the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment in Dallas".
What is the source for that? How does one know it was 1956 and not 1957, or 1955, or 1960?
Was the 488th that Crichton was associated with part of the US military command structure?
The US Army Reserve did have STRATMID's (Strategic Military Intelligence Detachments) that were part of a larger ARCOM (Army Reserve Command). A number of ARCOMS were grouped together to form an (MI) or (MIG) Military Intelligence Group , like the 4th Army or the 5th Army Group. These made up the ARCONUSA (Army Reserve Continental United States). There were 158 of these STRATMIDS in the United States. These Detachments were comprised of 9 men, and were compared to the size of a rifle company. The thing was, the requirement was that they had to be commanded by a colonel. They were "rank heavy". All chiefs and no Indians.
There really was a 488th STRATMID. Is this the same one that Crichton is related to?
What company, regiment, brigade, division, ARCOM, reserve army corps did the 488th belong to?
Has anyone ever seen a piece of paper, file, document, budget request, expenditure report, personnel roster, monthly fitness report, requisition for toilet paper with the 488th name on it?
These kind of things.
Steve Thomas
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On 1/7/2017 at 0:20 PM, Jim Hargrove said:
Steve,
I spent hours last summer trying to find Croy's badge number online without success. I skimmed through his WC testimony and didn't see it, nor was it listed on his 11/26/63 letter to Curry (WCE 5052), one of the few clear docs I could find from him. If you have any luck locating it, please post here.
Jim
Jim,
I guess I was wrong. In Box 14, Folder# 2, Item# 55, there is a Report from a Robert T. Davis to Captain Solomon recounting his duties on November 24th. He identifies himself as Robert T. Davis, Reserve Officer # 957. I guess that if you were to look for something associated with Croy, you'd look somewhere in the 900's.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm
Solomon told the WC, and in his Solomon's Exhibit 5107 (21H534) that a Reserve Officer could only be on duty while in the presence of a regular officer. If Croy was running around by himself, he wasn't on duty.
Steve Thomas
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On 4/15/2016 at 5:59 AM, Joseph McBride said:
From my 2013 book INTO THE NIGHTMARE: MY SEARCH FOR THE KILLERS OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY AND OFFICER J. D. TIPPIT
THE DEAD SECRET SERVICE AGENT STORY
And as was noted in Chapter 13, DPD Detective Marvin A. Buhk reported to Chief Curry on December 3 that Secret Service men had been involved in the hunt for the suspect in the Tippit killing.
The first reports of the murder of Patrolman Tippit also related that a Secret Service man had been wounded; since then, nothing has been heard about that Secret Service man. What was his relation to Patrolman Tippit...
As Buhk wrote in his after-action report to Police Chief Jesse Curry on December 3, 1963, “We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously.”
Notice that Marvin Buhk speaks of more than one Agent being present. The “Agent” Buhk spoke to was also a primary catalyst in shifting attention away from the branch library. At 1:34PM, Patrolman C.T. Walker broadcasts on Channel 2 that the suspect is in the Library. At approximately 1:40 Sergeant C.B. Owens tells Dispatch, and the Dispatcher broadcasts to all cars to “Disregard all information on the suspect arrested, it was the wrong man.” This is only about an six-minute window of opportunity. When did these “secret service men” arrive at the Library, how did they know to go there, and when did one of them have time to “talk to the man previously”?Steve Thomas
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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Steve,
I spent hours last summer trying to find Croy's badge number online without success. I skimmed through his WC testimony and didn't see it, nor was it listed on his 11/26/63 letter to Curry (WCE 5052), one of the few clear docs I could find from him. If you have any luck locating it, please post here.
Jim
Jim,
Two things:
1) I'm thinking that Reserve Officers weren't issued badge numbers like regular policemen were. A lot of the Reports of Officers' Duties on the 24th of Nov. were put together in Box 14 of the DPD Archives. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm
I had to smile. Compare the Report of Croy in Box 14 Folder# 2, Item# 46 with a guy named O.W. Harrison, also a Reserve Officer in Box 14, Folder# 2, Item# 86.
Looks like the were done with the same cookie cutter. *smile*
2) I'm thinking that Croy was driving around in his own car that a police scanner in it. In his WC testimony, Croy said that he heard the President had been shot when the call came in over the radio, and that he was at Colorado and Zangs when the call came over the radio that an Officer had been shot at 501 E. 10th.
But, on the Dispatch Tapes, you never hear him respond that he is Code 5 (enroute), or Code 6 (that he's arrived). And you don't hear the Dispatcher directing him there, and him responding. It makes me think that he could hear, but couldn't transmit. I think that's why he stopped at the Courthouse and asked some officers if they needed any help, rather that calling in by radio.
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Richard Price said:
Steve, I see this is an old topic which has no responses. If you are still monitoring it, I have a possible answer. I was looking at a series of photos identifying people associated with the assassination and came across a name that fits. This post stuck in my mind, as I browse a subject or two each week usually plus new posts. The name I came across which might be a possibility is Bardwell Odum, FBI. The same one that had possession of a picture from the CIA of someone possibly associated with Lee H. Oswald (Mexico City photo). He gave a deposition stating that he tried to get Marina to identify the person, but was blocked by Marguerite, who said Marina was too exhausted to be bothered.
Richard,
Thanks for your input, but....
I'm embarrassed as all get out.
I was looking at something else the other day and was using Fritz's Interrogation notes.
I was looking at his handwritten copy when I noticed that just above the initials B.O., he had written Jame W.
I think that he didn't press down on his pen hard enough, or the paper had a little oil on it or something, and the letter S got dropped off.
Bookhout's name was James W. Bookout. I think the person who typed Fritz's notes made the same mistake I did. I now believe that what Fritz wrote was, "Jame(s) B.O., thinking that Bookhout was two words, but he didn't know how to spell it; and then wrote in Bookhout sometime later on when he realized that it was just one word.
I feel sheepish.
Steve Thomas
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On 7/12/2016 at 8:06 PM, Jim Hargrove said:
Nothing concerning CROY'S appearance or experiences at the Tippit site was ever officially recorded.
Does anyone know what Croy's Officer ID# was?
I ask because I don't see anything in the Dallas Dispatch tapes referring to him.
Steve Thomas
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On 6/1/2016 at 9:11 PM, Chuck Schwartz said:
WR Westbrook appears to have been a member of an intelligence unit in Dallas, per this this piece:
488th Reserve Military Intelligence Detachment
The chain of command for the 488th Reserve went up through the Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence,
Chuck,
This was an outstanding piece of work. Thank you.
It leads me to a couple of questions:
1) Everyone seems to take the following statement at face value: (from the info piece on the 488th here: http://spartacus-educational.com/JFK488mid.htm
"In 1956 Jack Alston Crichton started up his own spy unit, the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment in Dallas. Crichton served as the unit's commander under Lieutenant Colonel George Whitmeyer, who was in overall command of all Army Reserve units in East Texas. In an interview Crichton claimed that there were "about a hundred men in that unit and about forty or fifty of them were from the Dallas Police Department.""
Now, one doesn't form a military "unit" on their own. The Army wouldn't stand for it, and wouldn't authorize any expenditures for it. So, is this "unit" something dreamed up in Crichton's own mind in some kind of delusions of grandeur? The statement I cited says that the "unit's" commander was Whitmeyer. Has anyone ever seen a single piece of paper with the 488th's name on it? A report? a Document? a File? a TOD or a TOE? You wrote, "The chain of command for the 488th Reserve went up through the Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence...."
What Company, Regiment, Division did it belong to?
2) On this same web site in an info piece on Jack Crichton it says, " In an interview Crichton claimed that there were "about a hundred men in that unit and about forty or fifty of them were from the Dallas Police Department."
Do you know if that interview is online anywhere?
Thanks again for your work.
Steve Thomas
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This is just a guess...
"Mr. Lawson acknowledged
that Lt. Col. George Whitmeyer, who was part of the Dallas District U.S. Army
Command, who Lawson said "taught Army Intelligence"1/31/78 HSCA interview of Secret Service agent Winston Lawson (RIF#18010074-10396)
Is this possibly where Whitmeyer worked?
Jules E. Muchert Army Reserve Center
10031 E. Northwest Highway
This Property was a part of the original boundaries of White Rock Lake Park. The City of Dallas sold the Property to the Federal Government in 1956 for an Army Reserve Training Center Site.
http://www3.dallascityhall.com/committee_briefings/briefings0607/QOL_061107_muchert.pdf
Steve Thomas
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If this is the same George L. Whitmeyer who, according to the 1940 Census was born in northcentral Pa in 1890 and was 50 years old in 1940, would have been 28 years old in 1918.
http://www.archives.com/1940-census/george-whitmeyer-nj-125053713
Steve Thomas
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Was George Whitmeyer of the pilot car fame an ambulance driver in WWI?
see pp. 45-47 of this book: Pennsylvania Voices of the Great War. edited by J. Stuart Richards.
In his 1978 obituary, it says that Whitmeyer's sister from Philadelphia attended his funeral.
Steve Thomas
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On 5/2/2013 at 9:59 AM, John Dolva said:
I don't think the JFK assassination the most significant political assassination of the 20'th Century.
I don't know if John Dolva is still posting anymore, but what do others think of his 2013 comment?
Steve Thomas
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10 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:
Here's the Title Page, I guess you have to write them or arrange to visit the Archives in person.
That's funny. I was poking around and ran across something I posted 10 years ago asking if the HSCA documents were available online.
Guess not much has changed since then.
Steve Thomas
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5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
David,
How does this (jibe?) (jive?) (what's the right word?) with what Ellis supposedly told a HSCA staff investigator - that he saw debris coming up from a nearby curb?
See p. 23 of Vol XII of the HSCA Report here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84#relPageId=27&tab=page
The footnotes those statements are based on, are on page 31 of Vol. XII here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84#relPageId=35&tab=page
and refer back to JFK Doc 013841.
Steve Thomas
Here's the Title Page, I guess you have to write them or arrange to visit the Archives in person.
AGENCY INFORMATION
AGENCY : HSCA RECORD NUMBER : 180-10109-10154 RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 013841
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ORIGINATOR : HSCA FROM : ELLIS, STARVIS TO : [No To] TITLE : [No Title] DATE : 08/05/1978 PAGES : 3 DOCUMENT TYPE : NOTES SUBJECTS : CONSPIRACY THEORIES; EYEWITNESS; STARVIS, ELLIS CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL CURRENT STATUS : OPEN DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 08/10/1993 COMMENTS : Box 242.
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14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Thanks Steve. I hope that an expert on Gloria Calvery can answer that question.
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying...
Is "crying" the same thing as
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics...
Steve Thomas
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9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
That's what I think. They simply don't know what is happening behind them. They were part of the leading motorcycle escort, so they were well ahead of the President's car when the shots were fired.
Did Ellis, et al, ever say they heard any shots fired? ~shrug~
David,
How does this (jibe?) (jive?) (what's the right word?) with what Ellis supposedly told a HSCA staff investigator - that he saw debris coming up from a nearby curb?
See p. 23 of Vol XII of the HSCA Report here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84#relPageId=27&tab=page
The footnotes those statements are based on, are on page 31 of Vol. XII here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84#relPageId=35&tab=page
and refer back to JFK Doc 013841.
I have never learned how to find an online version of HSCA documents. I frustrates the heck out me.
Steve Thomas
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11 hours ago, Chris Newton said:
I've noted this before but it's the white nationalist "cross in a circle" patch on Ellis' left forearm that I'm most curious about.
Chris,
Someone told me a long time ago that that patch signified a policeman who had received CPR training. I don't know if that's true or not.
Steve Thomas
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8 hours ago, David Josephs said:
I just have found that approaching this logically usually leads in the wrong direction...
*smile*
Steve Thomas
Brennan's lineup
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Jim,
I think Sorrels had it right when he testified, " He (Fritz) said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up."
If you go to the Index for the DPD Archives, there must be 50 references to the lineups. I've gone through all of them, and the only place Brennan shows up is in this one Box 6 file. I think the DPD did arrange for another lineup, just for Brennan. Based on the Reports filed by the people who were present at the Davis lineup, and the WC testimony of Will Fritz, there were no DPD people present. What I'd like to know is who else was there besides Sorrels. Winston Lawson sort of backhandedly refers to it, but the WC only asked him if there was anything unusual about it in the way the other "suspects" looked. They didn't ask him specifically what Brennan was asked and what he answered.
Based on his WC testimony, Lawson could very well have been present at this Brennan lineup. He said that Brennan didn't have much to offer in the way of evidentiary value and that Brennan's name didn't mean anything to him.
Mr. STERN. Do you know who that was, the witness?
Mr. LAWSON. I do not know; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. Could it have been someone named Brennan?
Mr. LAWSON. The name doesn't mean anything to me.
In his Report of what he did on November 22nd, Lawson said that he returned to DPD Headquarters and reported to Sorrels and "remained there under his direction". CE 772, page 633 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=659&tab=page
Nothing about attending Brennan's lineup.
Yes, Brennan testified that he thought it was Patterson that picked him and brought him down to DPD Headquarters. Patterson was interviewed by the Church Committee, and said that he had not filed a formal Report on Oswald's interview, but the Committee jumped from Oswald's interview to a discussion about Hosty, and then Patterson's interview with Marina. So I can't tell from this document if he was present for the Brennan lineup or not.
(I'm sorry, I forgot to include the citation for this, but if you do a search in the MF Foundation, you'll find it.)
CE 1024 is a collection of SS Agents' Reports. Patterson is not among them. In his cover letter to CE 1024, Rowley writes to Rankin that Sorrels' and Lawson's Reports were not included as they were already part of the Commission's records.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=736&tab=page
Steve Thomas