Jamey Flanagan

Thanks for the reply! Great stuff! I've only ever heard talk of one bullet hole so I don't believe there was another. That one is way too high to be responsible for the throat shot so I rule that out as a possibility. I just wonder where that shot wouldn've ended up? I think I may have heard in one video at some point about a bullet hole in the seat cushion. High up. Like the part you rest your back against. May be mistaken. That could be a possibility if so cause we know it didn't keep going and hit anything behind them in the motorcade.

Was watching this video: When a couple of things kinda stood out to me. First of all the guy who had said he had a conversation with Bill Greer right after the assassination and Greer said that shots were coming from EVERYWHERE. He said one came through the windshield and almost hit me. To me this paints Greer in somewhat of a better light. Most people, me included, have always been puzzled by his actions (or inaction) once the shots began and just concluded that he was in on it. I have always believed this to be true. Instead of stepping on the gas and getting the hell out of there he hits the brakes and according to many came to at least a momentary complete stop. Now, after hearing this report for the first time I am at least open to him not being aware of a plot to kill Kennedy beforehand and being a key player. Like when the White Sox (or should I say Black Sox) threw the world series back in 1919 they knew they had to get the main two pitchers in on it for them to succeed. They were key. The thought has always been that to guarantee that JFK does not escape Dallas with his life then the driver has to stop or slow down significantly to allow a kill shot. But, if the throat shot was the result of the bullet through the windshield, and Greer was aware that early in the shooting that shots were definitely coming from the front, then maybe I can buy that he panicked being that that shot almost hit him and didn't really know what to do. Do you keep driving toward a shooter? The second thing that stood out to me was the statements made by the motorcycle officers, Chaney being one, who adamantly said that the first shot missed and they saw it leave a trail through the grass in line from the Book Depository. And THEN JFK was hit from the front. So, I'm definitely thinking that the first shot did miss. Like Costner says in the movie JFK, "The first shot, sounding like a backfire, misses the limo completely. Kennedy stops waving....". Obviously this shot did make a sound, but everyone said the first shot sounded like a firecracker. But I saw something one time where someone fired a shot through a replica windshield of the limo and the shot going through the glass made a sound just like a firecracker. I'm not a guy who's into firearms so I'm not sure how it all works but maybe that first shot was muffled or a silencer was used and it didn't exactly sound like a gun shot but more like a backfire and then just a few seconds later the windshield shot sounding like a firecracker happens. Being within a few seconds apart most witnesses coupled these together as the same shot. The windshield shot I think was definitely shot with a silencer and the only reason a sound was heard was the bullet going through the glass. Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Would love to hear other's thoughts and opinions. And curious as to whether anyone has heard these Greer statements about the shot coming through the windshield and almost hitting him before. It was new to me.

Well, as I recall the news footage didn't show a helicopter landing but you can hear the sound of helicopter on the news footage seeming to come from the far side of AF1. I can't remember for sure but you might can even possibly see part of it. Not sure about that though. It has been awhile. So you may be right about it being in place already. I remember talk of a pre-autopsy (where undoubtedly the surgery to the head from the Sibert and O'Neil report occurred, along with removal of all bullets and other alterations to the body) possibly being preformed at Walter Reed. The theory went that the helicopter brought the body to Walter Reed for alterations and then the helicopter took it to Bethesda. Some of those details may not be 100% correct as I'm going only on memory from some time ago. But I think that was pretty much the gist of it. And there was also the possibility raised of the body being on AF2 which under procedure leapfrogs AF1 in route and arrives before AF1 while traveling.

If I recall correctly wasn't it the opinion of DSL in Best Evidence that a helicopter transported the body? Correct me if I'm wrong. There was news footage of a helicopter coming down low on the far side of AF1 and the thought was that at some point the body had been taken out of the casket and then placed on board the helicopter.

Yes, there was considerable confusion amongst the doctors when they could find no bullets or bullet fragments in the back wound or the throat wound (once they were aware it was a gunshot wound. I have read elsewhere that someone had phoned Humes BEFORE the body arrived letting him know of the throat wounds existence but the "official" story says he was notified of this after the autopsy by a Parkland doctor if I recall correctly.). Now, as for the head wound, there were a handful of accounts of an intact 6.5 mm bullet or "missile" being removed. DSL could lay out all the evidence of this better than I can given it has been some time since I've read Best Evidence. If I recall correctly there was an Admiral Osbourne who saw a bullet retrieved. And I'm thinking there was a "receipt" in evidence written up for a bullet retrieved at the autopsy that was overlooked by pretty much everyone until DSL discovered it and understood the implications behind it. I'm thinking there was at least one other autopsy attendee who said a bullet was removed from the head. Can't recall who. I remember someone with the last name Canada in there somewhere but not sure it he was the other bullet retrieval witness. Can you help my memory out Mr. Lifton?

"THE ULTIMATE SECRET OF THE JFK ASSASSINATION" http://jfk.deeppoliticsforum.com/morningstar/morningstar3-2.htm

Couldn't get it to add the pic so I had to post the web address to get to it.

https://images.app.goo.gl/YU9qqknw51GGg6Fv9

I know most of you will probably ridicule this, and I'm not saying that this is what I believe (I do find it an intriguing alternative to Lifton's theory from Best Evidence), but what if JFK'S body wasn't swapped from the bronze ceremonial casket to the shipping casket only to be swapped back to the ceremonial casket again? Confused yet? Well, most of you would consider it a stretch of the imagination at best, but Robert D. Morningstar has a very interesting theory. His theory is that Tippit, who bore somewhat of a resemblance to JFK, and was frequently teased by friends and fellow officers calling him Jack (as in Jack Kennedy), was used as a JFK body double. Sounds pretty crazy, right? But how many aspects of this case have seemed crazy at first glance? I have seen mafia men being interviewed and body swapping was quite common to them. Anyway, Morningstar did a half JFK half Tippit picture and all of the bone structures matched up for the most part. Tippit's eyebrows were a little bushier and would need plucking and thinning out. And Tippit's hairline was a little more receding, but the "JFK" morgue pics did have that weird looking thing going on with the hairline. Maybe that was the reason for the surgery to the head area that the Sibert & O'Neil report referred to. The scalp being refracted to hide the hairline. There was a website many years ago where he laid his theory out but not sure if you can still access it. He had comparison photos of the Tippit autopsy and the "JFK" Bethesda autopsy. In one the supposed body of JFK had a defect in his lower chest area near the bottom of the pic. Tippit had the same wound on him. If I recall correctly there was a mole on the ear of both men, or possibly the neck, that wasn't present in other pics of JFK. If nothing else I do believe those supposed JFK X-Rays that showed the orbital bone shattered above the right eye when JFK had no damage to the front of his face or that kind of damage around his orbital socket were of Tippit. He had a wound just like that. I know some people saw a right temple wound but that still wouldn't correlate to those X-Rays. And I think they could have used Tippit's brain as one of the brains that were weighed. I'm pretty sure I have lost all of you at this point, lol, but just suppose.........what if Tippit was the Bethesda autopsy body? And JFK stayed in the ceremonial casket. Tippit, after work done on him by Liggett to resemble JFK more closely, was placed in the shipping casket and was put on another plane that got to Washington BEFORE Air Force One carrying the body of JFK. Then you don't have all this casket swapping going on. Maybe this scenario is just too hard to believe. BUT, it could be an explanation for the dead secret service agent stories that were out there early on. As a cover story for why they were flying two caskets back to Washington instead of one. When no questions were asked they got away with it so to speak, the dead agent story is dismissed as just a rumor. Lol, just something to think about.

The first day accounts, especially first few hours accounts are SO important in a case like this where "outside" influences manipulate not only the evidence and the narrative but also manipulates the recollections of the people giving these accounts that they are so sure about at the time, yet after the "outside" manipulation they begin to doubt what they saw and heard. They see a supposedly unaltered camera original Zapruder film that contradicts what they observed and say to themselves that the camera doesn't lie and they must have just imaged or exaggerated some of the events in their minds due to trauma and stress or something. They see "official" autopsy pics showing no massive wound to the rear of the head and doubt what they saw or try to rationalize it somehow like maybe the pieced the head back together from fragments or something, not wanting to believe their own government would present outright forgeries as fact! Yet SO many firsthand accounts that were ridiculed at the time have been proven as fact in the years since. Just going by memory, Jean Hill I think it was that was saying something about a little dog being in between the President and Jackie and people tried to discredit her every statement from her lying (or embellishing) that fact. How can you believe anything she says? She thought she saw a dog in the limo! But sure enough many years later it was discovered that Jackie was given a stuffed Lamb Chop puppet that she had between them and it looked like a little dog. That's just one instance. There are many more! To me the first day and first few hours accounts need to be considered above all others!

Maybe unrelated but wasn't there an Honest Joe's Pawn Shop van with a machine gun or something on top of it parked somewhere behind the fence or in the railroad parking area or something? The van drove through the area apparently just before the parade came through and was supposedly parked somewhere up in that area. Just bringing this up because somewhere earlier in this thread there was talk of a possible gunman on top of a car spotted in the Nix film or something to that effect. To play devil's advocate, could the firearm on top of the van parked somewhere behind the fence be mistaken for a gunman's rifle with him being on top of a vehicle. Being older posts, all of the related pics were gone so I don't have the advantage of seeing those so excuse me if I'm mistaken about any of the above related info. The other thing is that I do believe Hicks could have been a radio man for the assassination team but I just can't see him being the same person as the "Dark Complected Man" who was beside "Umbrella Man" during the assassination. From his testimony of being near the Stemmon's Freeway sign it would seem to place him in that area, but DCM and Hicks look nothing alike to me.

Ok, so when that time of year rolls around and they do those As It Happened marathons about how news of the assassination unfolded, I always remembered thinking it was strange that initially reporters (or maybe it was just one reporter) kept saying Lee Harold Oswald if I remember correctly. Most people just say it's an honest mistake. Reporters generally do tons of research, or have access to their news department who do that exhaustive research for them. I'm just saying, if it was just a slip of the tongue you'd think by his next report he'd get a call telling him it was Lee Harvey, not Lee Harold. So, anyway, I was just watching that Killing Oswald documentary and they were playing a tape of David Atlee Phillips (Mr. Bishop himself, lol!) and he was talking about the supposed phone call to the Russian embassy in Mexico City by Lee and he says clear as day that the man introduced himself as Lee Henry Oswald. I'm just curious what everyone here makes of the confusion or deception involving his middle name. And for those who subscribe to the Harvey And Lee theory, I wonder if the real Lee Oswald, the redneck Texan who was born in New Orleans had the middle name Harold or Henry. It would be a much more common name in America than Harvey I think. Especially in the South. And the other Oswald, Harvey took his given name of Harvey as the H in the middle name. And of course, combining their records it became one Lee Harvey Oswald. Thoughts?

Was listening to a 1978 interview of Richard Lipsey about the autopsy of JFK he was present at on The Lone Gunman YouTube channel. The Autopsy he describes is VERY different from the one you most commonly hear described that was a circus like atmosphere. Very chaotic. Not at the one he attended. And he says they attributed 3 shots from behind to JFK alone. A lower back wound that did not exit, a neck wound that exited through the throat, and a head shot that did damage to the right side of his face. At least above the right eye area if I heard right. I would love to hear David Lifton's thoughts on this interview. I don't remember this guy Richard Lipsey being in Best Evidence, but it has been some time since I last read it.

That would make WAY more sense to me if the chicken bones were found on the 5th floor. As late as Bonnie Ray Williams claimed he was still up there eating, do you think the shooter or shooters would just be sitting there hoping he'd leave in time? LOL! Something has to give. Either someone told him to leave and then threatened him not to talk about it or he ate on the 5th and they just tried claiming the bones were found on the 6th to make Oswald seem cool and calculated and eating chicken just before blowing away the President. In a case where nothing really is as it ever seems it's at least plausible.

Douglas, did your source or sources happen to say anything about an intimate relationship between Priscilla and Marina Oswald? Just curious because I have read that several times over the years but it's usually just speculation mostly I think.

I also recall hearing in a video on YouTube I think (can't recall which one) that Honest Joe's had official secondhand Dallas Police officer uniforms for sale in his store. They noted in the video that it would be easy for possible assassins to disguise themselves as DPD officers by buying uniforms from Honest Joe's. I find it a rather curious connection if Hinckley did buy his gun from either Honest Joe's or his brother's pawn shop. Especially given GHWB being from Texas, his alleged ties to the JFK assassination, and his ties to the Hinckley family.

It's amazing to think that some lone nutters refuse to even accept the possibility that there was a conspiracy and/or coverup. I'm not talking about schills who push the ln agenda but either don't believe it or flat out know that wasn't the case. They just push that agenda because they are told to or for career advancement or whatever. I'm talking about people who truly believe Oswald acted alone. Intelligent people too. Not just sheep who follow the herd. Just based soley on connections you HAVE to see that it is at the very least VERY fishy! Lyndon Johnson, who arguably had the most to gain from the assassination, was from Texas. Becoming President he had the ability to control the investigation, appointing handpicked Warren Comission members which included Allen Dulles, a man who Kennedy had fired. Talk about the fox being in charge of investigating what took place in the hen house! Another guy fired by JFK was General Charles Cabell, whose brother Earl was the mayor of Dallas at the time. The building Oswald worked in being owned by DH Byrd, who was a founder of the Civil Air Patrol which Oswald and Ferrie were once members of. Byrd and LBJ were familiar with each other. There's the memo from Hoover about agent George Bush and the anti Castro Cuban community. GHWB also being an acquaintance of George Demorndshilt or ever how you spell it, lol, who was chummy with Oswald. He had GHWB's name in his address book under his nickname Poppy (as he was known by close friends and family). What about Prescott Bush? Have ya'll seen the picture of Prescott Bush, Richard Nixon and Jack Ruby? We all know Nixon was at least familiar with Ruby since Ruby was an informant for Nixon in California back in the late forties. Nixon, the man Kennedy had beaten in the last election. Had the election stolen from him. The man who planned the Bay Of Pigs operation and worked with mafia figures on plans to assassinate Castro. Some of the same people he worked with on the Castro and Cuban thing ended up being the same people arrested for the Watergate burglary. Hunt, Liddy, Sturgis amongst others. I could go on and on all day long but how do these ln'ers explain how all of these people connected controlled the city where JFK was shot, the building from which he was shot, the guy who was blamed for it, the guy who killed the accused assassin, and the investigation into it? All this being coincidental is beyond reason. And how people connected with the assassination were rewarded for helping in the coverup. LBJ of course became President immediately. He put Connally on his staff for taking one for the team and perhaps trying to buy his silence. Nixon of course took over from LBJ and when Agnew was forced out he made Ford his VP. Former Warren Comission member Gerald Ford who was known as the FBI's best friend on the Comission. The man who performed verbal surgery on the late President by moving the shallow back wound up to the neck and having it exit allowing the single bullet theory to even have a chance to be swallowed by the American people. Wasn't it under Ford when GHWB was made director of the CIA? And he too later became President. But I'm sure all of this is just sheer coincidence. Lol!

Haha! I'm surprised no one has written a book yet titled Paine In The Ass: The Michael And Ruth Paine Story.

I just watched a TV special about her murder on YouTube. It was pretty interesting. The thing that set off red flags for me though was the mention of a Nash Rambler station wagon at the scene. Immediately my mind went to Roger Craig and seeing Oswald or an Oswald double running down and getting in the vehicle. Ruth Paine did own one apparently and at the station when confronted by Roger Craig, Oswald supposedly said something to the effect of "That belongs to Mrs. Paine, don't try to drag her into it!" Anyway, the only man who witnessed the murder of Mary Meyer was apparently a tow truck driver called to the scene for a disabled Nash Rambler. Within a minute or two of stepping out of his vehicle he hears her screams and goes to them and sees her murder. Apparently, according to the program, he said for years after that it was his belief that he was called to the scene to be a witness to the crime. Apparently the station wagon disappeared. Was never towed by him anyway. Not saying Ruth Paine was involved or that the vehicle Roger Craig saw was even the Paine vehicle, but if you subscribe to the theory that the CIA murdered her and the CIA also had a hand in the assassination, then the Nash Rambler station wagon is possibly a link between the two. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

A little off subject, but while I see you online David, I was wondering if you have any updates on Final Charade? I haven't heard anything in awhile and was wondering if you have a time frame for release. Thank you!

Just wanted to see what everyone's take was on this man. From all appearances he seems to be loyal and close to the Kennedy family, especially Bobby. He and Dave Powers had both went along with the "official" story in their Warren Comission testimony but in the Tip O'Neill biography "Man Of The House" he wrote of a dinner with those two where both indicated that shots were fired from behind the fence on the grassy knoll. After Tip pointed out how that differed from their WC testimony O'Donnell replied "I told the FBI what I had heard, but they said it couldn't have happened that way and that I must have been imagining things. So I testified the way they wanted me to. I just didn't want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family." That's not to say that he was neccesarily a traitor or anything because Robert Kennedy did many puzzling things that seemed as if he went along with the "official" story at least on the surface. Like sending Walter Sherridan to N.O. to torpedo Garrison's investigation. And some say that the missing JFK (or who ever it belonged to, lol) brain and other objects were delivered to Bobby by Burkley. This apparent cover up from RFK may lend credence to the research into a supposed Operation Freedom that Bobby headed himself to solve the Cuban situation and take out Castro. I've heard as well about RFK talking by phone to one of the anti-Castro Cubans involved in this operation and flatly stating one of their guys killed his brother. That would be just like the plotters to blame someone in RFK's own operation for the assassination. And I have no doubt that Bobby knew it was a conspiracy but I really do believe he thought Oswald was part of the assassination plot. I think that may have had a lot to do with Bobby keeping his silence on the assassination for the most part. He felt personally responsible. Not just for his Cuban operation being turned around on his own brother but for his agression in trying to take out the mob. Anyway, back to Kenny O'Donnell......he stayed on with the Johnson administration for awhile. Then later worked on the RFK campaign until his assassination. I just wanted everyone's thoughts on him. Do you think he had any knowledge or involvement at all? I don't really think so but so many people close to the Kennedy family did so many strange and puzzling things after the JFK murder.

I'll be turning 42 in February so the assassination was quite a bit before my time. I just thought I'd share how I was introduced to the assassination and the evolution of my interest throughout the years. If this post belongs in a previous thread the administrator is free to move it. The first I ever recall knowing anything about the assassination was seeing the end of the miniseries where Martin Sheen played JFK. Going back now and watching it I see it is slightly more graphic than I remember but not that graphic. Just saying it didn't leave an image burned in my mind or anything. But I felt immediately drawn to this for some reason. If I had to guess I'd say this was around 1988. The 25th anniversary. I was in fourth grade I think, so at this point I don't think we had even learned anything in school about the assassination. I remember watching the mock trial of LHO and to me even though they concluded guilty it was apparent to me even at this age that this was not the case. I remember a special called The JFK Conspiracy or something like that I recorded on VHS that had James Earl Jones as narrator. They time tested the ability of Oswald to pull off the assassination and murder of Tippit in the required time and it didn't add up. There was another special sometime later I recorded on the same tape called The Kennedy Assassinations or something like that. This first introduced me to the RFK case and the death of Marilyn Monroe possibly being connected to the Kennedy killings as well. It was also the first time I had heard any connection between Watergate (which I was unfamiliar with I'm sure) and the assassination. I remember seeing the preview for JFK before it's release and knowing I had to see it. My mom had to tell them it was ok for me to see it since I was under 16 at the time. I was blown away! Still one of my favorite movies EVER! And in my opinion one of the most important movies ever made. I don't recall what books on the case I read first but I bought and read On The Trail Of The Assassins shortly after this. There were several I checked out and read from the library. I have always just devoured information on this subject. I own RFK Must Die. Many years later in my twenties I bought Best Evidence at a thrift store. I always loved The Men Who Killed Kennedy series. Anyway, I just thought I'd share how I fell into this particular rabbit hole that I've been in for over 30 years, lol! Would love to hear other's stories about their first taste of this subject.

I disagree about Clint Hill. I wouldn't say he went above and beyond. I think it's more a case of all the others doing nothing and at least he did something. If you make a C in class it looks way better if everyone else made F's, lol! He was the only one who did a remotely competent job, but in no way, shape or form would I describe it as going above and beyond his duties. At the very best he did the job every agent should be expected to do. I know there are still people out there who believe the currently accepted Zapruder film is the authentic camera original but at the very least I believe they removed frames showing the wide turn on Elm, the limo stop (or possibly 2 limo stops), and I believe the sign JFK goes behind at the moment he was he hit was embellished or fabricated to conceal something. Anyway I included that opinion in this post because I think the only reason Clint Hill was able to catch the limo at all was because it stopped momentarily at least for the headshot. And now it's almost regarded as this mythical, superhuman feat chasing down the limo (even if it were going only 11 mph at the time) when in reality the only reason he made it at all was because of the limo stop.

So Vince, I work 12 hour weekend shifts and I listened to a 5 hour long video of yours today at work and at least at that time you singled out 3 agents: Floyd Boring, Emory Roberts, and William Greer. You thought all the other agents were just negligent or accessories after the fact. Am I correct? Are you still under that opinion? And if so are there any you're slightly iffy on? Just curious if any other agents actions or words have set off your radar. I agree on the 3 you named and believe the president's security could have been stripped with just these 3, a bunch of hungover and sleep deprived agents and a few who hated Kennedy's lifestyle and immorality. Some other agents actions were questionable. By the way, I saw a YouTube video a month or two ago that had an interview of Sam Kinney's neighbor who says Kinney revealed to him that he found the stretcher bullet in the limo outside Parkland while cleaning it and he walked inside and put it on the stretcher. Just curious if you've heard this story and if so what you thought of it.

I believe it was Emory Roberts who was in the motorcade ordering agents off the rear of the Presidential limo and such if my memory serves correct. I think Boring was just in charge of putting together the trip and planning but was not in Dealey Plaza in the motorcade.