Jamey Flanagan

Well, not saying I have a strong opinion one way or another on Chauncey Holt or any of his claims but if you believe every document you see coming from our government (which is corrupt) or the Dallas PD (which was unbelievably corrupt back then) then I'm sure you believe Oswald did it all himself with no help and it was just an open and shut case. I, for one, do not believe for a second that the names they all of a sudden came up with DECADES later for these arrested "tramps" are actually the ones arrested that day. And IF by some miracle they actually are the same people then I definitely do not believe for a second that they were really just tramps and that nothing nefarious was going on with them. You don't conceal something unless there is a reason to conceal it. The fact that it took decades for them to provide information on them even after many books and articles suggesting they were involved in the plot is pretty revealing if you ask me. But maybe I'm just a "conspiracy theorist" by nature, lol!

Thanks for the clarification Pat! I guess I just assumed they were one in the same considering the connection to the assassination. Do you happen to know if they were related? When reading that document I was thinking that the middle initial and everything were the same. If that's the case I would think maybe father and son, as in possibly a Jr.

Didn't he used to post on here frequently or am I thinking of someone else. Maybe it's just that I've seen his name pop up on here quite a bit. Did he die under mysterious circumstances or anything like many others involved in this case? Just curious.

Good stuff! Hopefully we'll hear more from Robert Morrow on that last document pertaining to him and his book!

Not off at all! I own a copy of John Armstrong's massive investigation into just that aspect Harvey And Lee so you won't find any ridicule from me on that subject, haha. It's funny that you point out the fake ID's because I had just posted not that long ago about all of the confusion surrounding Oswald's name. You were hearing everything from Lee Harold to Lee Henry to Lee Harvey. I even saw an interview where the guy (can't remember which guy it was, I'm thinking David Atlee Phillips) was discussing the supposed Mexico City phone recordings to the Soviet Embassy and he says Lee Henry Oswald to the interviewer. Going back to the original topic, you are spot on that if Oswald were the assassin then he would have been up in that window and ready to fire and the motorcade indeed was running a little late. And if he were just going by the time it said in the papers then he should have been up there well in advance of 10 to 15 minutes till 12:30. You'd think he would have been up there at 12 or earlier waiting if the lone nutters are right, lol!

This is pure speculation on my part, but if I recall correctly in a David Lifton interview on Night Fright about his long awaited Final Charade book he says that in the book he will have a woman who finally decided to come forward with the fact that at the very time of the assassination she was giving Oswald change for the Coke machine. Or something to that effect. I don't remember enough about Carolyn Arnold's movements after she saw or caught a fleeting glimpse of Oswald within 5 to 10 minutes of the shooting, but when I heard this from Lifton her name was the first one that popped into my head as to who this mystery woman could be.

Well, if this testimony is accurate then a picture of the rifle barrel sticking out of the window could have been taken. I'm pretty sure those behind the assassination would have been pretty pleased with a picture like that as long as you couldn't see the gunman and realize it wasn't Oswald, lol! But this is precisely why standard protocol was broken that day. The press was usually in front of the president and if they had been they may have captured more details than the plotters would like known and possibly even get a picture of the real gunman at that angle. Being 7 or 8 cars behind the president in an already slow moving motorcade and you still have to slow down significantly to make that turn onto Elm gives the shooters plenty of time to get those shots off and get out of dodge. Apparently if what he is saying is accurate then he observed the last shot and them being so far behind he couldn't see the shooter at all. Had the press been any closer at all, even one car closer we very well may have gotten that picture of the rifle. As far as spectators in the crowd lined along the streets taking that picture, all their attention was focused on the president and his car. Unless that particular Depository window was just in the background of a picture taken of the president at the time of the shots, which would probably have to have been one of the first shots before he got far enough away from that window to see it, you were never gonna see that. They do these things like magicians do, using those sleight-of-hand tricks. Look over HERE! While the real action they don't want seen is happening elsewhere. I think this is even more true in the shooting of Bobby Kennedy. Sirhan is the distraction while other shooters, chiefly Ceasar the security guard, do the real shooting. I honestly believe that Sirhan didn't fire a single shot that night. Not using bullets anyway. I think he was programmed and given a prop gun like they use in movies. That's why you have the serial numbers being changed and all those shenanigans going on to replace the gun in evidence with a real gun. Possibly even one of the real guns used so that bullets can be traced to it. Some people that night have said something about seeing confetti in the air. Those fake bullets they use have confetti in them I've read, or produce confetti when fired. Once I really thought about it, even if you say Sirhan was programmed, there were reports of other people firing guns in the pantry even besides Ceasar. Why would you risk Sirhan firing wildly and possibly hitting one of your real shooters? I truly believe he was firing a Hollywood style prop gun. Sorry to get off topic but I wanted to clearly illustrate my sleight-of-hand remark. I think I'm a fairly intelligent, observant guy. A friend sent me a video once and I was told to watch it and describe what all I saw happen afterwards. I caught a few things of course but then he watched it with me and pointed out all the things that were going on in that video that I hadn't even noticed. Wardrobe changes from the actors. Things in the background being swapped or taken out completely. There were maybe 50 different changes over the course of this 5 minute or so video clip and I had only noticed a few. He is a physics teacher and he played this video in his class for his students to illustrate human perception and how you need controls and things in experiments because human perception can be tricky. And how you need an open mind and you have to use deductive reasoning and such. Anyway, sorry for the long rambling post, haha!

Yeah, the ones I remember as a child in the early eighties had the picture come out, then you peeled off this plastic sheet or something over the front of it, and then you kinda waved it around in the air or something and slowly the picture started to reveal itself. Keep in mind however this would be the memory of a 4 or 5 year old at that time, haha!

John Butler, in one interview from the time of the assassination, like within the first few days I believe, she had said something about how you were only supposed to leave the picture in the camera for like a minute but with all the excitement going on she had forgotten she even took it and said it was about 4 or 5 minutes until she got it out. Or something to that effect if I'm recalling everything correctly.

This is fascinating stuff! Thank you all for this info!

Just to speculate, if say officer J.D. Tippit were the officer in question running back behind the TSBD then you wouldn't have a report of an officer running behind there because he didn't live to write said report. I know I have heard at least one account of Tippit being behind the TSBD. Can't remember who. May have been a caller into a radio program back in the 70's or 80's. They said something about a vehicle being back there and Tippit yelling at them to move the vehicle. Just food for thought.

Great stuff! Never heard this story before! Haven't read your book yet but I've watched as many of your long YouTube videos on the Tippit killing as I could find! Impeccable work!

So, has anything ever come to light on this Featherstone guy to lead you to believe that he might not have been on the up and up? I know lots of media people even back then had ties to intelligence agencies somewhere down the line. Anything in his record that is an obvious tie to someone who might have been a figure in the coverup?

Haha, yeah I saw that in the multi-part interview I watched with her! Lol! I definitely find her more credible than her companion that day, Jean Hill. But her recollection of events seems a little off. Not saying I think Hill is straight up lying, but to put it kindly there does seem to be some embellishment there as the years went by. The story seemed to get bigger with all these other people in it seeming more shady. Almost a complete opposite from Mary Ann Moormon. Moorman seems to naively assume everyone is on the up and up and although she doesn't come out and say it she seems content with the "official" story. Maybe she's just holding back something or maybe she just didn't see anything she considered out of the ordinary. In the one long interview I watched the guy questioning her did ask about the babushka lady and she doesn't recall ever seeing her or anyone like her there close to them. And she had somewhat backtracked a little if I'm not mistaken. She says she had stepped off into the street to take the other pictures but said in that particular interview that she did back up out of the street to the edge of the curb. I still think she was in the street. Unless it has been debunked since, the measurements and recreation that Jack White did to calculate just where she was standing to get the pic lined up seemed pretty sound to me. Then again, I have heard said that the famous Moorman 5 was really taken by the babushka lady. Don't know if that theory would even hold up. If I'm not mistaken there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for chicanery there. Seems to be a pretty tight chain of custody on that picture if I'm not mistaken. Her sequence of events sure sounds strange though. She seems to be talking about that 5th picture, the head shot, but says it was the first shot she heard and then she heard 2 more. Unless as some say that there was a double head shot, and then one of the shots that missed was fired last it just doesn't make sense. Many things in this case don't. But, if that were the case, how does she not hear or recognize the throat shot or any others that may have come before her famous photograph?

Thanks Steve Thomas! What I found disturbing about the website you linked above was the section where there were a couple of different reports of a street dressed officer possibly firing at an unknown fleeing suspect behind the knoll area. Did you see that?

Just to update anyone possibly following this thread and interested. If I'm understanding correctly, there was a picture of Mary herself being Moorman 1. There was a picture of a motorcycle patrolman well in advance of the motorcade with whom she had went to school with. In the interview I'm watching now she hasn't said anything about this next picture I'll discuss but apparently in Dallas police reports they stated that one of her pictures captured the TSBD. So there are 3. She then took a picture of another motorcycle officer she knew which was Lumpkin. She said she gave the picture to officer Lumpkin later and many years later asked him about it and he said he had lost it somewhere along the way at one point possibly when he moved. And then there was the famous Moorman 5 photograph.

Apparently she had taken 5 pictures that day. I've been studying this thing for most of my life and I have yet to my knowledge to see any of the other 4. Have any of you seen any other pictures taken by Moorman? In a case where it seems that every known photograph and every still of every motion picture has seemingly been analyzed in excruciating detail this seems strange to me. Have the other 4 been made public at all? I just wonder what could be on these and if anything can be taken from those to help fill in some of the gaps.

Ok, so forgive me if any of this has been addressed before in other threads. Was watching an interview of Mary Moorman and her describing what all happened during the assassination. Several things jumped out at me. It was a public question and answer type thing and was after the 50th anniversary so significant time had passed. She says the limo never came to a complete stop, but personally I think that all these years of seeing the Z film (along with the fact that she had a camera in front of her face and possibly just didn't see a momentary stop) has maybe tainted her memory. But the limo stop isn't really what this thread is about. I'm wondering just how many pictures she had taken? I have never heard of more than the one. Never seen any more of hers. She said as she took her picture she heard a shot. She was asked if she noticed any distress or anything in the limo and she said no she thought she was gonna get a good picture of JFK smiling and facing her. This leads me to believe she is referring to an earlier photograph. Because she then said after that she heard two more shots. She says she only heard 3 and all sounded like firecrackers to her. She reports the typical bang.......bang, bang heard by the majority of witnesses. But then she also talks about seeing his hair fly up and such associated with the head shot. It's just all a little confusing. And this is over 50 years later so there's that. I know she used a Polaroid camera, right? I vaguely remember those from my childhood but those are the ones where the picture comes out instantly and you gotta kinda wait for it to develope I guess you'd say. Am I correct in all this? So, using a camera like that, would she have had time for more than one picture between the first and third shot? But she says when recounting the events "pictures" as in the plural form. If she did take any more pictures I would think they would be analyzed and be considered important as well if nothing more than maybe capturing faces in the crowd. Am I correct in thinking there is only one picture that Moorman took? You would think that having a camera you would take more than one picture. If nothing else you'd probably take pictures at intervals as the motorcade progressed and would have others besides the one where the President was right in front of you. Maybe not. It's pretty confusing so I just wonder if anyone could clear any of this up or if any of this has been addressed in the past on this forum. Thanks in advance!

Just out of curiosity, are there any of Connally's wounds that are even debated as to being frontal entry wounds? I've been studying this particular homicide and all that it entails for over 30 years, since I was 11 or 12, and it just hit me that no one ever really discusses JC's wounds when not talking about the single bullet theory. Now, I'm not suggesting that the windshield shot could be responsible for any of JC's wounds so this is just a little off topic. Just out of curiosity I got to wondering if all of the Governor's wounds were definitively back to front wounds. Of course that back shot seems to be one of entry, and I've never heard it debated that it did not pass through and exit near his nipple. I'm not exactly sure this same shot caused the wrist wound but I'm open to the possibility. I do not believe one bullet (and since we all know just how ludicrous the magic bullet theory is, so by one bullet I do not mean one passing through JFK first) created the back wound entry and exit, the wrist entry and exit and the thigh wound or whatever. Maybe one bullet caused 2 of the three but I don't see it causing all 3. Anyway, all of these seem to be shots from behind and I'm pretty sure I have never heard an argument to the contrary. If that is the case then the idea that the shooters from in front were merely emergency, shoot if necessary, plan B shooters seems to have a bit more legs.

Ron, that is actually pretty interesting about the short gun barrel because something I was watching recently on YouTube had a witness to the shooting talking about what she saw. Can't remember exactly who it was but pretty sure it was a woman. Could it have been Carolyn Arnold maybe? Or possibly Patsy Paschall. Anyway, whomever it was, she had a remark about how the rifle didn't seem as long as a normal full sized rifle. The Worrell story about that rifle barrel he allegedly saw just made me think of that.

Good stuff Chris Bristow! Excellent work!!!!

Chris Bristow, sorry but you lost me in all that math, haha! Aside from the location of the shooter, is the through and through bullet hole in the windshield responsible or could be responsible for the throat shot in your opinion? Like realistically, not like how they calculated that the magic bullet scenario was theoretically possible in the Warren Comission? Could that high bullet hole line up with the throat shot without putting a shooter in an implausible position? I have taken into account too that in the Altgens 6 JFK was already grasping his throat and bent downward. At the actual moment of impact he probably was sitting straight up and waving or just having stopped waving to the crowd. With the Stemmons Freeway sign right in the way at impact it's hard to tell exactly.

Well, the most commonly accepted reason why he would want Jackie there is to ease the public's mind about the transition and the continuity of government. Just for appearances so to speak. Although I'm not sure if they were aware of it at the time, or if it was even suspected, but there were already whispers all over the country (and certainly at the local level in Texas where people knew how ruthless Johnson could be) that Johnson had something to do with the assassination. If not involved in the planning I think many people at least assumed he had foreknowledge and was so eager to be president that it was understood that the ensuing "investigation" would pretty much be a cut and dry Oswald did it lone nut scenario. It was all supposedly a public relations thing so it wouldn't appear that LBJ was seizing power ASAP, but instead the Kennedy administration, represented by Jackie in the photo were handing over the reigns. Wasn't the story floated by LBJ that he had talked on the phone with RFK, who insisted that he immediately assume the office of president? And later found out not to be true? All of this was done to put out the idea and the image that the Kennedy family had put their stamp on the Johnson administration and the transition. Anyway, I can see how this event could have been used to leave the casket unattended momentarily but I just don't think this could have neccesarily been planned as THE number one option. Like a previous commenter said, you could not be 100% ensured that Jackie would go along with it. In fact, in her state of mind, as a plotter I would assume she would refuse to leave the casket for the swearing in. So, if this was indeed how it happened that the body was taken then it was just a fortuitous circumstance that they took advantage of and not the plan all along in my opinion.

Yeah, earlier in the post someone pointed out that the bullet hole was much higher than where the video has it located. In the video it has the area circled with the white thing you spoke of that I agree is Kennedy's shirt. So I was like the bullet hole was much too high to correspond to a trajectory that lines up with the throat wound. However, since then I have seen other posts commenting and seen other videos about how a bullet reacts to going through a sloping windshield. Going into a sloping windshield from the front will affect the trajectory by making the bullet go downward a certain number of degrees. And a shot from behind if it goes through a sloping windshield will make the path of the bullet travel upwards a certain number of degrees. That settles the fact once and for all at least in my mind as to whether a bullet hole came from the front or from the back. There has never been any doubt for me as to the through and through bullet hole being the result of a frontal shot but I have seen it argued by lone nutters that the hole, if there was one at all (their argument since "officially" there was no hole), originated from behind maybe from the headshot or some other Oswald shot. Anyway, after seeing actual test firings that show how a bullet going through a windshield will slope downward I have now changed my mind again as to the possibility of that being the throat shot bullet. So now I'm back to square one and I accept that a bullet entering at that high spot near the rearview mirror could have been the throat shot.

So, I just noticed the comments from the video I posted in the first post. There was one VERY interesting comment you all should read from the one who posted the video on YouTube. He quotes someone who had sent him a comment on an encounter he had about a week before the assassination behind the Texas School Book Depository when he was 9 and there with his Dad. Trust me, you need to read this! Now, it can't be taken as gospel truth or anything cause the guy used a screen name it looks like but it's not that far fetched if you really think about it. George Bush was the CIA liaison to the anti-Castro Cuban brigade which included E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis. Oswald was involved with the anti-Castro Cubans. Ruby was making trips to Cuba and running guns. For some reason when they said a man with a thin tie on I immediately thought Bill Shelley. I can't say why. Who knows? Maybe something I saw or read once. But when I read that the name Bill Shelley immediately popped into my mind. From all I've read anyway I believe that the Texas School Book Depository was (similar to the O'Reilly Coffee Company Oswald was previously employed at) was more or less a front business but did other operations for the C.I.A. or FBI. Not saying that everybody involved in the warehouse had intelligence connections or that there wasn't legitimate work done for that business, but some of the higher ups involved in that endeavor have somewhat sinister connections. Starting with the building owner D. H. Byrd. His involvement with the civil air patrol in which Dave Ferrie and Lee Oswald were members at one time. Anyway, just thought I'd give everyone a heads up to look in the comments section.