Jamey Flanagan

These are great discussions to be had gentlemen, for sure, but getting back on course to the subject of the post, I'm wondering if anyone had anything else to add on the "other" film of the assassination with a similar viewpoint to Zapruder or it possibly just being an "unaltered" copy of Zapruder? Several things have always bugged me about the extant Zapruder film over the years. And I have pretty much been all over the place as far as my opinion as to the extent (extant, lol, pun intended) of the alteration. But, I have always believed that there was alteration, even as a young man studying the case who had probably never used the word alteration. Zapruder and Sitzman stated that he started filming just as the motorcade (the advance motorcycle cops) started turning onto Elm. Neither has EVER said that he stopped filming and started back. I don't think he did. I think that for some reason or multiple reasons that the rest of the motorcade and the Presidential limo turning onto Elm has been removed from the current version we call the Zapruder film. The Stemmons Freeway sign has always bugged me even if I couldn't articulate why at the time. And granted, I have never been to Dealey Plaza (as of yet) and I haven't seen the angles or stood on the same "perch" that Zapruder stood, but every road sign I have ever seen in my life has faced toward the oncoming traffic so they can see it. Do you know what I mean? This sign on the extant film looks almost like instead of facing oncoming traffic that it is facing the opposite side of the road. This doesn't make sense to me at all going by seeing road signs my whole life but I never recall seeing one quite like this. And coupled with testimony that the sign was quickly taken down and replaced it just makes me feel like something happened with that sign and that it has been replaced in the film we now see and that since they had to replace that sign anyway they maybe enlarged it a little and placed it at that strange angle to hide something that went on while the limo was in that area. The area where the throat shot occurred. If, as many suspect, the shot came from the south knoll and through the windshield then maybe you could see evidence of the windshield shot from the front and they used the sign to hide that impact. Just speculation on my part of course. And there is no doubt in my mind that there was at the very least a brief limo stop or what officers call a rolling stop at the time of the head shot or head shots that we do not see on this film. I've been pulled over before where I stopped at a stop sign and had time to look both ways before accelerating again. But the officer swore up and down that I didn't stop at all, leaving me dumbfounded because I know I stopped no matter how briefly. Maybe the limo did a rolling stop but I have no doubt that it did some kind of a stop. Enough for people to notice. Not the fluid motion we see in the extant copy. And last, but not least, as much as I appreciate that rapid head movement backwards leading many people to believe in a conspiracy, the facts are the facts........no witness in Dealey Plaza seeing this horrific event unfold right before their eyes have EVER reported seeing that violent backwards head snap that day. And many have said that his head went forward after the head shot. And not the imperceptible to the human eye forward motion just before the violent backwards head snap we see in the film currently. Noticeable forward movement. I'm not going to speculate as to why the people behind the assassination would alter the evidence to make it look more like a shot from the front other than they thought the film would never see the light of day except for selected still frames. To me, if that head snap was done just to remove frames of a limo stop then the forgers would have been better served just leaving the limo stop in and let Greer take one for the team on that. However, I suspect there is more. If, like many believe, there were two head shots almost simultaneously and there was obvious evidence of there being two distinct shots in the original film then that could possibly be a more important reason for them to delete frames even if it left the impression of a frontal shot. Not saying there weren't more alterations to this film, but to me these are the things I consider were altered at the very least.

I agree Pat, we do need a deep dive on Oswald and Marina and not just the same old "official version" we have always heard! I respect what Marina did in later years far removed from the assassination in coming out and saying she thought Lee was innocent and was set up as a patsy. That being said, Marina deserves much more scrutiny than she has ever received. I am convinced that Marina was a spy for Russia much like Oswald was a spy for America. I believe there are numerous things she has held back or just simply lied about. We definitely agree on those two needing another look. As far as your assessment of the "Best Evidence" alteration theory presented, I was wondering what your take on this was Pat. Maybe I'm just reading between the lines, and sometimes written text can easily be taken out of context, but I got the distinct impression that you maybe consider the very idea complete hogwash. And other comments I've read from you about the very idea of alteration as far as involving films or photographs seem to support this assumption on my part. I'm just curious as to the extent that you may dismiss this, that is if you do dismiss it. So, I'm asking whether you believe any of the witnesses from Bethesda who have spoken of the President's body being wrapped differently (in a body bag) and being in a different casket (a pinkish grey shipping casket like used for soldiers as opposed to the expensive bronze casket) than he left Dallas in? And early on in my study of the case it was often Dallas versus Bethesda witnesses compared and pitted against each other, however, many witnesses at Bethesda report the very same head wound in the back of the head that Dallas doctors saw but often times this wound upon arriving at Bethesda was even more massive in size. Do you think those who reported this were just mistaken or lying? Just trying to find out what your take is on that. Thanks in advance for any reply!

Thanks Vince! I am very well spoken and put thought into what I'm writing to make sure I really convey the message I am trying to get across. However, my talents do not lie in writing of this nature, lol! I was a big history buff in school but English class, not so much, haha! I come up with great ideas all the time for stories but every time I have tried to write it feels like everything is just a big run-on sentence! 😂😂😂 Now, I can write songs with the best of them, but as far as short stories or novels I just don't have that kind of patience or talent. I have always wanted to write a book on the assassination (which I have been a student of since I was 11 and I just turned 44, lol!) and have a great title in mind. Chain Reaction: Crime Of The Century. Since I am no writer, feel free to borrow that title! 😁

Found this on a Google search:

I've often wondered exactly what the hold up was. I know you want the research to be as accurate as possible and that takes time to verify all of these new revelations. I know, at least originally, that this book was supposed to be Oswald-centric. And it's just pure speculation on my part, but being a believer in the John Armstrong Harvey and Lee theory at least in some part and from what I understand Lifton does not believe this theory, I have often thought that one of the possible reasons for the lengthy delay was Lifton trying to weed through the complexities of Oswald's life and reconcile him being in two different places at the same time from the time he returned from Russia up until the assassination (and actually seemingly in two places at the same time while in Russia with reports of him in America during that time period). Part of this of course is just people and organizations using the Oswald name but you also have many people swearing they saw Oswald based on his appearance as well. So, obviously at least part of the time someone who looked an awful lot like the historical Lee Harvey Oswald was in different places using his name. I don't wanna open up a whole other can of worms with this and turn this thread into a Harvey and Lee debate, but with the constant delays in this project it is just something I have considered that may have been a possible roadblock at several junctures in his research. Once again, it is pure speculation on my part, but I'm curious what some of you might think about this idea. Any thoughts?

I'm watching the YouTube video now! Pretty excited about it!

I remember in Lifton's Best Evidence where he called a coroner and without telling them who the victim was (JFK) he read the autopsy notes about the massive head wound and the description of it and the coroner said something along the lines of it sounding like this man had suffered a blow to his head or possibly several blows to the head with an axe! I think he may have called several and they all pretty much say the same thing. None said anything about a gunshot wound if I remember correctly.

As far as the book goes, I'm very interested to finally get to read about some of the new details he has spoken about on radio shows in the past. I know he puts in the research but some of what I've heard I really wanna see in print and find out just what all corroborating witnesses and evidence there are to some of his new revelations. I remember something about some witnesses coming forward about seeing another limo stop, this time somewhere between the underpass and Parkland and something about Jackie trying to crawl out of the limo again. I'm anxious to see if any further corroboration is there to that event aside from the group of teens who were together and testified to it. Something that dramatic never coming to light or being discussed by anyone in the intervening years is almost hard to believe. But many things in this case are! Another fascinating thing I remember hearing him say is that, if I remember correctly, there was a certain doctor at Parkland who actively worked to ensure that Oswald died. I don't remember if he named the doctor publicly, but I believe he said it would be in the book. He said something along the lines of the work they did on Oswald was almost successful, and that Oswald was stabilizing and looking like he was gonna pull through. And then all of sudden this doctor rolled him over on his side or something to that effect, and he just bottomed out and took a turn for the worse. Forgive me if I'm not stating any of this correctly, for it has been several years since that particular interview that I listened to. May have been 2016 or so. I'm pretty sure it's still on YouTube but I can't recall when I last listened to it.

Great post Vince! Well said! I was thinking the same thing as far as what would happen to the book should he pass away!

I found that pic I had uploaded to another thread some time ago.

Yeah Sandy, those damned Warren Omission attorneys NEVER followed up on their questions! Lol! It's just pure speculation on my part, but I would bet that maybe is a reference to folks not taking her testimony seriously because she had said something about there being a little dog in the limo between the President and his wife. Some folks ridiculed her for saying that and tried to discount everything she said. But in all actuality, there was a small lambchop doll between them that a child had given Jackie at Love Field. On another thread in this forum I had posted a picture of this little doll. Despite some wild accounts Jean Hill told later on in her life, I feel her early testimony, especially her first day testimony to be very reliable!

Just curious as to whether anyone has any information on the status of this long awaited followup to Best Evidence? I know that Mr. Lifton has been a contributor to this forum in the past so maybe he can come forward and shed some light on this topic. Last I heard I think he was looking for funding online. It feels like this project has been in the works for about 30 years. I know that Best Evidence took some time to be completed though so hopefully it will be well worth the wait. I just haven't really heard anything in quite some time so I was just wondering if this was still an active project or if there was any sort of timeline as for the possible release of it if so. Was just going to bump another thread mentioning this book but all I found were so long I feared this would just get buried. Thanks in advance for any info you could give me!

And although we currently have no photographic evidence (alteration) of the wide turn onto Elm, we do have a handful of witnesses who did speak of the driver, Greer, almost turning down that TSBD access road mistaking it for Elm and having to make a quick adjustment to make that turn onto Elm. It is said he actually either ran over part of the curb or almost did. Then he had to make adjustments to right the limo. So I'm sure this would have taken significantly more time than if the limo had made this smooth turn onto Elm. Maybe that allowed some of these guys to get ahead of the limo.

I don't want you to get the opinion that I'm singling you out or attacking you specifically Pat, because that is certainly not the intention from me, but I just want to make sure I understood your post I just read a few seconds ago. You had talked about the autopsy photos and if I understood correctly then you are of the opinion that all of those authentic. Am I correct in that assessment, or am I just reading between the lines? There is one autopsy photo in particular that I cannot see in any way, shape, or form being even a minute representation of the truth. The photo I'm referring to is the one where the back of the president's head is completely intact and there is just the tiny "entrance" wound in the back. I'm just wondering if you think that particular picture is 100% authentic? It seems to contradict all the Parkland doctors' recollections as well as several in attendance at the Bethesda autopsy who all saw the big blowout in the occipital parietal region of the head. Now, if it's your contention that the picture was taken after a reconstruction job then I must say that was one hell of a reconstruction job they did on the back of his head, lol!

I agree with many of the points made in the last post by Gil. Except maybe for the Beverly Oliver and Gordon Arnold thing, lol! I seriously doubt that Oliver was even there, but if she was she most certainly wasn't the babushka lady. I think, given that the video taken by the babushka lady has never surfaced, that she was an operative for the assassination team and took a video for them of what actually happened. Just a theory. I'm 50/50 on Arnold. He's more believable than Beverly anyway, lol! But another point that most people never bring up is that the events depicted on the extent Zapruder film are described as happening that way by ZERO eyewitnesses! Especially the violent backwards and to the left head jerk. Nobody saw that happen that day in Dealey Plaza! Most describe the head moving forward after the head shot. And not the imperceptible forward movement you see in the extent Zapruder film, though not as violent and fast as the back and to the left we see today.

I appreciate your response, and I do understand all of that. I am curious as to what your answer to my question would be, lol! Would you consider Dino Brugioni an alterationist?

Speaking of The Twilight Zone, lol, I wish someone on some platform would do an anthology series on the JFK assassination and it's aftermath. You'd have enough material for at least 20 or 30 seasons even if it came on year round, lol! You could do an episode on Rose Cheramie, the umbrella man, the chain of possession on the Zapruder film with the Dino Brugioni revelation about it going to Hawkeye, etc. You could even do multiple episode story arcs on the Warren Commission, the Garrison investigation, the HSCA, and the ARRB. You could even do entire season arcs like showing the evolution of the critics from day one up to modern day. Shine a light on the people who questioned the "official" story from the beginning. We owe these people a debt of gratitude that we could never repay! Anyway, it's these small stories that the casual followers of assassination lore may never even hear about that fascinate me! Like the Oxnard call. The Raleigh call. Coley at the news and his puddles of blood, etc.

Excuse me Pat, but the way you just casually throw around the term "alterationist" reminds me of the way the lone nutters throw around the term "conspiracy theorist", lumping everyone together from some guy who thinks there was a low level conspiracy and cover-up to what you might consider a full blown nutjob. And it's always used with negative connotations. Let me ask you this, do you consider Dino Brugioni (forgive me if I butchered the spelling) an alterationist? A highly credible guy who is just saying what he personally saw and what he saw was most definitely not the content in the extent Zapruder film. Do you think he is lying? Mistaken? Or to quote that great wordsmith George W. Bush, was he just misremembering? At the very least frames were removed. Each frame is an eighteenth of a second. There is blood spray in one frame. That's it. Anyone with a shred of common sense will tell you with that impact, with just how many people were covered in blood and brain matter, that all of that blood splatter is not gonna happen in an eighteenth of a second and be over with. If that makes me a nutjob "alterationist' then sign me up buddy, lol! Nothing personal either. I respect the work you've done in the field. You have made many valuable contributions.

Could it be that the ambulance was the one in Dealey Plaza that had to leave with the epileptic seizure guy just before the motorcade arrived? I think I read that about the guy rushing toward the limo in the book The Lonestar Speaks. I'll have to try and find it again in there.

I recall reading about a man coming out on the street approaching the limo and he was tackled by SS agents or something to that effect. I could be mistaken but I think it may have been somewhere around Lemmon Avenue on the motorcade route. Think this incident could be related to the speculation here on this thread?

I think possibly a casualty of missing frames or editing is what was described by a close assassination witness. I'm pretty sure it was Bill Newman although it could have been Charles Brehm. He said something about hearing that first shot and JFK jumping up in his seat a little. Said he thought it was the President kind of joking to a backfire or a firecracker at first, kinda like "Oh, it got me!" I was listening to various interviews of witnesses so I don't remember exactly who it was for sure, but I believe he was a police officer that said a very similar thing after hearing the first shot the President did something that he had first thought was joking about the sound not recognizing it was a gun shot. I guess you could argue that JFK raising his hands up to his throat was what these two men interpreted as him possibly acting like he had been hit as a joke. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I just finished the 2 hour version. I found it a bit underwhelming myself. Not trying to knock it or anything by any means. I thought maybe it's just because I'm pretty knowledgeable about the case that I've heard and read all this stuff before. And that those who aren't as familiar with the subject matter would find this just as eye opening and shocking as I found movies and documentaries when I first started getting into the case. But I can watch the film JFK and it has that same impact on me like when I first saw it. It hits the right beats and is suspenseful. I know that comparing movies and documentaries are like comparing apples and oranges but it just felt a little flat to me. Especially since I really enjoyed the Untold History series so much. Really looking forward to the 4 hour one. I feel like maybe this one was just geared towards casual followers of the assassination and the 4 hour will be more for those who really want to sink their teeth into the case.

It's kind of like Oswald.....if you wanna break it down into the simplest question....if this guy is as guilty as everyone thinks he is then why are so many items of evidence lost, fabricated, and manipulated? Or in other words why would you have to try so hard to frame a guilty man? If Sirhan, even under hypnosis was the assassin, and the lone assassin, then why would the serial number on the gun keep changing? Why would you have multiple "magic" bullets in this case bouncing and ricocheting all over the place to make this scenario possible?

As well as the flame witnesses also other witnesses talked of seeing confetti floating around during the shooting and in the book RFK Must Die it is said that blanks as used in Hollywood has confetti inside them. I've never owned a firearm or am by no means an expert on firearms so I plead ignorance and have to rely on others statements on those matters. I'm a big fan of The Walking Dead TV series and I've noticed several times when they are firing you'll see a flame shoot out and when I've seen people fire real weapons in real life I haven't seen anything quite like that. It's all circumstantial evidence of course, but considering the chain of possession problems with the Sirhan gun and the musical chairs game of serial numbers associated with this gun then I consider all of the Sirhan "shots" to victims circumstantial evidence as well. Especially considering the testimony of the coroner Nagucci.

I do believe that Sirhan was firing blanks. It does not seem at all ridiculous or implausible at all. In fact, it seems very plausible and ideal. For one thing, say Thane Eugene Caesar was an assassin....... Sirhan is a MK Ultra assassin but comes out in front firing wildly into the crowd....... especially after they start jumping on him...... who's to say that Sirhan couldn't accidentally shoot Caesar? Or any other assassin behind RFK? Would Caesar volunteer to be in the line of fire? Maybe you can say he's MK Ultra too. It's like how a magician uses slight of hand. Sirhan is the diversion. Firing blanks in front to get everyone's attention while the real killer/killers do their job almost unnoticed.