Jim Hargrove

FBI stumbles across two Oswalds... again According to an FBI report located at the National Archives by John Armstrong in May 1999, the FBI had tracked Oswald's alleged return trip to the U.S. from Mexico City, indicating that Oswald took a La Frontera bus from Mexico City and arriving at the border town of Nuevo Laredo on the morning of 10/3/63. Noting that Oswald also applied for unemployment compensation at the Texas Employment Commission that same day, the report found it "highly improbable that Oswald could have traveled" the 426 miles "from Laredo, Texas to Dallas, Texas on 10/3/63, in time to appear personally" before Laura Kittrell at the Texas Employment Commission. The agent who wrote the report was obviously unaware that two people were sharing the identity of Lee Harvey Oswald. Not to mention that entire facets of the Mexico City saga were fabricated. Here is page 2 of the FBI report:

Wow! Mr. B is in such a snit about James Norwood that in his latest list of urls he completely forgot to say how horrible I am! That’s not fair! How has Professor Norwood managed to get the H&L Hit Squad to go to DEFCON 1 so quickly? Could it be Dr. Norwood’s recent article about agent Oswald’s amazing Russian fluency? http://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html That’s probably the real threat to the Hit Squad’s security. Keep up the great work, James. When you’re this much of a target, you know you’re doing something right!

Fascinating questions, DJ. Another fascinating question: How did a 5' 11" Marine become a 5' 9" cadaver just four or five years later? Anyone want to examine the evidence for this?

It sure is hard to keep up with this thread, but thank you for posting this, DJ. Where is the scar behind "Oswald's left ear?

This might be as good a place as any to tell the following story that John told me years ago.... Back when he was researching Harvey and Lee, John visited the Fort Worth Independent School District and got a list of teachers at Stripling and Ridglea West Elementary School. From the list, he managed to call Mrs. Buleau Bratton, LHO’s teacher at Ridglea West. John said that Mrs. Bratton spoke for quite a while about Oswald and eventually said that she had shared a small apartment briefly with “Marguerite Oswald” (the impostor). Mrs. Bratton said that late at night, after midnight, she overheard Marguerite talking on the phone in a foreign language. John suddenly became very interested in the conversation. He asked Mrs. Bratton if Marguerite had been speaking in Spanish, and she said no. He then asked her if the language could have been German, and Ms. Bratton responded that she knew a little German and it didn’t seem to be the language her roommate was using. Mrs. Bratton indicated that she did not recognize the language at all—not a single word, but that she heard Marguerite speak on the phone late at night in the foreign tongue several times when Marguerite thought she was sleeping. Could the language Mrs. Bratton heard Marguerite speak have been Russian? We'll probably never know. Because it is difficult to say anything definitive about this information, John did not include the story in either his book or the website, but I’ll always wonder if phony Marguerite might have been speaking in Russian.

What we agree upon…. Before getting lost in our differences, I thought it might be helpful to summarize this revised list of what most of us here agree upon. I believe James, Sandy, Mathias, Glenn and I all believe it is reasonable to conclude that: 1. Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language is not even close to being explained by his official biography. 2. Oswald's proficiency with the Russian language prior to his defecting to Russia -- as measured by the military's Russian test -- was roughly that of a nine year old native speaker. 3. Not one other U.S. Marine remotely from this era is known to have taken an Army Russian language exam and then "defected" to the Soviet Union less than a year later. 4. Oswald's Russian fluency was kept secret at all times except during his months of service when stationed at a Marine Corps base near Santa Ana California, where his Russian Commie credentials were being established in preparation for his false defection. 5. In Moscow and Minsk, Oswald hid his Russian abilities from all but a very few people, a ruse that would enable him to understand far more that was being said around him than most Russian people would suspect. 6. When he returned to the U.S., Oswald's fluency reading, writing, and speaking the Russian language amazed a number of the White Russians in and around Dallas. 7. All the above makes perfect sense if you assume Oswald was a U.S. secret agent on assignment in the Soviet Union. Thanks to James and Sandy for additions to the above list. Also, I'd like to post that link again to Professor Norwood's article. Does anyone know of a more complete examination of Oswald's Russian fluency anywhere? Here's the link.... http://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html

What we agree upon…. Before getting lost in our differences, I thought it might be helpful to summarize what most of us here agree upon. I believe James, Sandy, Mathias, Glenn and I all believe it is reasonable to conclude that: 1. Oswald’s fluency in the Russian language is not even close to being explained by his official biography. 2. His Russian fluency was kept secret at all times except during his months of service when stationed at a Marine Corps base near Santa Ana California, where his Russian Commie credentials were being established in preparation for his false defection. 3. In Moscow and Minsk, Oswald hid his Russian abilities from all but a very few people, a ruse that would enable him to understand far more that was being said around him than most Russian people would suspect. 4. All the above makes perfect sense if you assume Oswald was a U.S. secret agent on assignment in the Soviet Union.

Hi again, Mathias, I'm not so sure of your conclusion above, but hopefully Prof. Norwood will see this and comment on it. The records, for what they're worth, indicate that Oswald never lived anywhere near Monterey while in the USMC, and there are no gaps in his records that would provide the kind of time needed for this kind of extensive training. Even assuming those records would have been falsified to hide his Russian-language training, some of his Marine associates, Zack Stout for instance, are pretty clear that he didn't study Russian while they worked and bunked with him in Japan and earlier. That's a reasonable point, but in a footnote in his article James also pointed out that Oswald scored roughly the same ("poor") in both his Russian and English tests. The question arises whether dyslexia or some other test-taking disability had something to do with that strange outcome. Again, a good point, but it hardly explains why tests of his Russian vs. English language skills would show roughly the same fluency in each.

Nonsense. I have been trying to get Mr. Parnell to debate a dozen or more issue HERE for weeks. He refuses to do so. Now he says he is willing to debate the exhumation, and so am I, but not until he debates at least some of the other issues HERE which he has been avoiding for months. It is his turn to step up to the plate and go to bat for his views. If he does so, my turn will come soon enough.

Mr. Parnell once again clearly shows that he is unwilling or unable to debate the issues (many of which I summarized near the top of this thread) that he claims have been “debunked” elsewhere. They have not been debunked, and Mr. Parnell, as always, wants to change the subject, this time by discussing the mastoidectomy/exhumation. I have discussed it many times, and am willing to do so again, but not until Mr. Parnell finds the courage to debate HERE the issues he has been ducking for weeks. Posting a link to a page that does NOT debunk the issue is insufficient and is not worthy of the JFK Assassination DEBATE forum. Pick a couple of issues you say have been debunked elsewhere, Mr. Parnell, and paste the arguments here, or summarize them here, or put them in your own words here, or do SOMETHING worthy of the term DEBATE! When you have done that, we can talk about the exhumation again.

Or that he learned Russian even earlier than that.

Once again, as he has done for weeks, Mr. Parnell simply refuses to debate the issues I and others have raised here. Instead, he posts links to other pages, pretends the issues have been debunked there, and then either runs away or attempts to change the subject. Before I agree to a change the debate focus to the mastoidectomy or the HSCA’s so-called fingerprint and handwriting evidence, or something else of his choosing, I expect Mr. Parnell to at least ATTEMPT to do what he has refused to do for weeks, and that is to DEBATE the issues here that he pretends have been debunked elsewhere. I don’t ask that he take on all of the issues that I have been discussing for months, such as those summarized near the top of this page. But it has been his turn to debate at least a few of those topics for months, and he continually refuses to do so. Why?

Will Mr. Parnell pick a topic or two or three from above and actually DEBATE them? Of course he won't! He'll just post links to Greg Parker's nonsense and run away. Why does he bother to appear on the JFK Assassination DEBATE forum if he is unwilling or unable to DEBATE?

I'm repeating below my post from the previous page that Mr. Parnell seems unable or unwilling to debate.

And, as always, Mr. Parnell does not summarize or even discuss the arguments here, on the JFK Assassination Debate forum, because he knows Mr. Parker's arguments will be destroyed. Why is Mr. Parnell afraid to debate the issues? Greg Parker's claims made at the site linked above are debunked here: HarveyandLee.net

New PDF Version of Harvey and Lee from the United Kingdom A nicely scanned version of Harvey and Lee has been available for years at a website run by Barry Krusch. Since it is technically a pirated version, I won’t give the address here, but it is easy to find on Google. Now, the editor of a well known U.K. website has just completed a new PDF version of Harvey and Lee and is seeking John’s permission to use it. Great care obviously was taken in the preparation of this version, and it includes some added research tools. If John and the U.K. organization reach an agreement, I’ll post a link to the file.

I thought I’d repost the article above to see if any of the H&L critics would like to discuss evidence here, although they will probably just prefer to conduct the usual gossip and provide links to other sites, pretending those sites actually debunked Harvey and Lee, which none of them do.

Harvey and Lee Critics Failed to Debunk ANYTHING I presented in this thread This lengthy thread was started a half year ago when an H&L critic attempted to mock the clear fact that “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” command of the Russian language was FAR too good to be explained by his Official Biography®. In post after post right here in this thread, I and others showed how wrong that critic was. Eventually, the absurdity of the H&L critics’ arguments prompted Prof. James Norwood to research and write a definitive article on Oswald’s unexplained Russian language skills. It can be read here: http://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html It hardly comes as a surprise that the H&L critics were unable to debunk a single one of the many examples presented in this thread proving that two young men were sharing the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald” in the 1950s and early 1960s, all taken from information presented in John Armstrong’s book Harvey and Lee. Among the examples the critics failed to debunk were: “Lee Harvey Oswald” in the fall semester of 1953 simultaneously attended PS 44 in New York City and Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans. The very next year, according to brother Robert, several newspaper accounts, NYC school records and numerous eyewitnesses recorded in currently accessible YouTube interviews, Oswald attended Stripling junior high in Fort Worth while simultaneously attending PS 44 in New York City. Lee Oswald’s half-brother John Pic told the Warren Commission several pictures of “Oswald,” including the famous Bronx Zoo, were not of his brother. In September 1958, one Oswald sailed to the South China Sea and was stationed in Taiwan while the other was treated for VD in Japan. In January 1961, one LHO appeared at the Bolton Ford truck dealership in New Orleans while the other was living in the USSR. During roughly the same period, one LHO was spotted by Marita Lorenz and others in Miami and the Florida Everglades working with anti-Castro Cubans while the other LHO was living in Minsk. Many existing documents indicate “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height was 5’9” tall, while many others indicate he was 5’11”. Hardly any show he was 5’10”. H&L critics like to say Oswald sometimes “exaggerated” his height, as if the U.S. Marine Corps allowed it’s own soldiers to give estimates of their own heights on medical records. One Oswald did not drive and only had a learner’s permit. The other did drive and had a valid Texas driver’s license. One Oswald was seen by many witnesses in Dallas and with Jack Ruby in 1963 while the other Oswald was living in New Orleans. “Lee Harvey Oswald” according to DPD reports and civilian eyewitnesses, was arrested in the Texas Theater balcony AND on the main floor. One was led out the theater back door, and the other out the front. While one LHO was elsewhere, the other was seen at the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target. A second Oswald was seen at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership in Dallas on Nov. 2 where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car. While Harvey Oswald was working at the Texas Book Depository, another LHO appeared at the Irving Furniture Mart On Nov. 6 or 7 for a gun part where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked, and at the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) on Nov. 15 to apply for a job and oh-so-subtly ask how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas. While Harvey Oswald was still working at the Book Depository on November 20, a second LHO was hitchhiking on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4-foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introducing himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald.” He discussed the President's visit, wondered if you could shoot a president, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already at work). Harvey and Lee and this thread have also provided many examples of how Hoover’s FBI altered witness statements about events in Dealey Plaza, altered sworn testimony of their own agents at the Warren Commission hearings, and lied about the secret transfer and alteration of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” so-called possessions. The critics’ failure to debunk any of the above didn’t surprise me. Most of John’s major points about the Two Oswalds simply cannot be discounted. Toward the end of their appearances in this thread the critics claimed, without citing any evidence at all, that a fellow named “Greg Parker” had explained everything on another website, but they failed to show (or even summarize) those explanations here. Had they done so, people like myself, David Josephs, Sandy Larsen, and James Norwood could have easily torn those arguments to pieces. Of course, they didn’t have the courage to debate the issue here, claiming only that Greg Parker had all the answers. Perhaps one or more of the H&L Hit Team will resurrect the Greg Parker excuse now, but you can bet they wont try to debate the issues here, where all can see the paucity and speciousness of their arguments. Toward the end of this thread, at least up to this point, ONE THING ABOUT THE H&L CRITICS AMAZED ME! I’m sure it is obvious to anyone who reads the last few pages of this thread.

Hi, Tom, It may be that many of us here have a hard time knowing what to make of your posts for, I suspect, several reasons. Speaking for myself, I just don’t know enough about cryptography or information theory to even guess at the odds that some of your “puzzle” solutions could appear randomly if enough potential solutions were applied to the content of any given document. Secondly, although I certainly believe that there is a trainload of highly manipulated evidence currently in the JFK collection at the National Archives, it is hard for me to imagine how Nagell himself had the means and the opportunity to introduce altered documents into the system so that it would eventually make it to NARA. Can you shed light on either of these questions?

Sandy, What "related difficulty" are you talking about?

Two young boys, Lee Harvey Oswald and an eastern European refugee who spoke Russian and was given the name "Harvey Oswald," were selected by the CIA for inclusion in a super-secret project known as MK-ULTRA. The plan was to merge the identity of a Russian-speaking refugee with that of American born Lee Harvey Oswald over a period of many years. If the merging of identities was successful the CIA could then place a native Russian-speaking young man, with an American identity, in the Soviet Union as a spy. The young man known to the world as "Lee Harvey Oswald" successfully "de­- fected" to the Soviet Union in 1959 and returned to the United States with a Russian wife in 1962. A year and a half later this young man was set-up as the "patsy" in an elabo­ rate scheme engineered by career CIA officials to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Following the assassination the FBI and Warren Commission collected and pieced together background information from the Russian-speaking refugee and Ameri-­ can born Lee Harvey Oswald that was used to create a fictionalized person we know as "Lee Harvey Oswald." Two days after the assassination of President Kennedy the Russian-speaking refugee, Harvey Oswald, was shot and killed by Dallas night-club owner/CIA gunrunner, Jack Ruby. Arnerican born Lee Oswald was, and may still be, very much alive. --from Harvey and Lee, preface See Dr. Norwood's LEE HARVEY OSWALD ESSAY, right here: http://harveyandlee.net/J_Norwood/Legend.html

Geez, Tom, you sure have my attention, but can you cite EVIDENCE to support any of this?

As far as I can remember, Nagell only associated with LEE Oswald, not HARVEY. Nagell’s experiences seem to indicate that LEE was in on the conspiracy; in his featured role as “The Patsy-to-Be” HARVEY probably wasn’t. <g> However, this case puts everyone’s memory to the test, and I’m not getting any younger.

It’s a treat that Prof. Norwood is making such substantial contributions to HarveyandLee.net. He combines the thoroughness and vigor of an academic researcher with a real flair for popular writing. In the opening pages of Harvey and Lee, John Armstrong examined the possibilities that Oswald may have studied Russian at a language school and concluded there simply wasn’t a time when he could have done so. He also interviewed Zack Stout, who was stationed with Oswald in Japan and the Far East for roughly an entire year before he (Oswald) suddenly began speaking and reading and writing Russian while based in California. Stout said, “ We slept in the same bunkhouse and most of the time worked on the same radar crew. The idea that Oswald studied Russian in Japan is ridiculous--it just didn't happen.” (H&L p. 5) Norman Mailer apparently had little to say about what language Marina and her new husband spoke in private, a shortcoming I have heard both John and James complain about. The link to Prof. Norwood's new article, again, is here: http://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html

DJ, How much confidence can we really put into a study comparing rubber stamp fonts? Let’s say though, for the sake of the discussion, that these stamps prove conclusively that Harvey Oswald was at least partially responsible himself for creating the DoD ID card. Where does that leave us? He surely had to have help obtaining the ID card in the first place, either from the other Oswald or from someone with access to the blank forms. Classic Oswald® at this point was 20 years old, though we both probably think Harvey could have been a couple of years older. Is there any doubt that someone his age, laying the ground work for an upcoming attempting espionage assignment in the USSR, would prepare false documents, or do much of anything else, without direct supervision?