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Andrej Stancak

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  1. Jim: I also take John's article as a theory, and I take it seriously and believe John has also meant it seriously. If it is a serious theory of how assassins escaped from the sixth floor, it needs to be examined and checked from every angle to see if it holds or not. This is what we are doing in this thread because you presented and defended this theory on John's behalf. My analysis, and I spent time both reading John's article and testing various aspects of his theory, says that this theory is not plausible. I gave you my reasons. As far as my explanation of the escape is concerned, I do not have any at the moment but will present it here once I have any.
  2. My about two-minute time estimate for Mrs. Stanton's return is realistic, and it would allow Mrs. Hine to go round the 2nd-floor offices and return to her workplace. However, the point and a major problem for John Armstrong's escape theory is that Mrs. Stanton took the elevator on the first floor and used it to get to the second floor before Inspector Sawyer even entered the building. I am puzzled by your inability to acknowledge that the sum of problems related to the escape theory is such that it disproves it entirely. 1. The lift was not stuck motionless on the fourth floor in the very early period after the shooting, instead, it was available for employers for use. Mrs. Stanton used it about 1 minute after the shooting and entered the elevator on the first floor. 2. The lights were on in several parts of the building during the shooting which makes it unlikely that the power was switched off. 3. The phones were not arriving when the motorcade was approaching (Mrs. Hine) which has a logical explanation in people watching the motorcade or being on lunches rather than calling the Depository switchboard. No phone calls arriving, no signal lights on the switch box. 4. At least two phones on the second floor were in operation just seconds after the last shot making power outage unlikely. Who and how could switch on the power just some 10 seconds after the last shot? 5. The conspirator Bill Shelley was not at the back of the first floor within one minute of shooting. He remained at his spot on the top landing for about one minute (his WC testimony) and only then stepped down and walked towards the concrete island. Likewise, Lovelady remained on the steps for several tens of seconds and joined Shelley in their walk toward the concrete island. 6. Neither Bill Shelley nor Billy Lovelady was seen in the back of the first floor by either Vicki Adams or Sandra Styles. 7. There was no opening in the floor in the area adjacent to the second east window that would allow entering the elevator shaft just by lifting the opening. Such an opening would have to be drawn in the sixth-floor map because it would need to be protected and signed, but it was not. Instead, the boards near that window were loaded by two layers of book boxes. It is not possible to lift the boards from below as the boards are long and hammered to the joints by nails. Cutting and noisy bouncing lasting minutes would be required to open the floor, and the floor would not look intact afterwards. 8. The floor above the shaft was stiffened to prevent accidents due to potential cracking of the wooden boards. Any mechanisms which are needed to hold the lift could not be simply mounted on the wooden boards of the sixth floor; instead, the shaft would have its own roof. The construction of the shaft was such as to prevent any accidents, not such as to help people to get access to a floor above the shaft. 9. There was no opening on the shaft walls on the fifth floor either. To access the shaft space above the fourth floor, one needed to move the lift below the level of the fourth floor, step on the top deck of the elevator, and drive it up or down as required. The elevator service technicians can do this. 10. The elevator was of small size and it is unlikely that it would have a vent opening on the top and a railing around that would allow people to step on it and squeeze through into the shaft. There is still no data on your part on what type of elevator was installed in the Depository building and nor did you show the building plans to illustrate the construction of the shaft. It is not enough just to say that it was all possible because some lifts have both a railing around the cabin and a ventilation opening on the roof of the elevator. It is necessary to prove that this specific lift allowed people getting to the top deck. The CT researchers have specific responsibility for theories they disseminate. The assassination case is compromised not only by the lack of reliable primary data (testimonies, films, photographs) and active disinformation but also, unfortunately, by unsupported CT theories which contribute to the confusion and mislead the public and other researchers. I hope you do not wish to be in this category of CT researchers.
  3. Sure, it is in Mrs. Geneva Hine's testimony for the Warren Commission (below). Darnell film was taken not longer than about 30 seconds after the last shot and it is reasonable to assume that the doorway scene in Darnell which still contains Shelley, Sanders, Frazier, Lovelady, Williams, Molina, Reese, and Stanton (her figure is much disputed though) dissolved soon after. The people mentioned by Mrs. Hine were back on the second floor in about 2 minutes, long before Inspector Sawyer arrived. Please note that Campbell and possibly Reid saw Oswald in the small storage room in the front of the first floor as he was returning to the building; Oswald possibly left his post at the western wall even a bit sooner than other doorway occupants making his total stay in the doorway less than a minute which also explains that no one (except Frazier and possibly Shelley) spotted him. Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in? Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was. Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? Miss HINE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Who were they? Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.
  4. Jim: would you please show Sarah Stanton standing outside the building in the eastern part of the building. I am familiar with all possible video clips and photographs, however, none showed Sarah Stanton. None could show because she entered the building in the first batch of people returning to the building and used the front elevator. Inspector Sawyer came in later. So, the elevator was not parked on the fourth floor during the shooting - it was on the first floor waiting to be used.
  5. Right, however, was this thread not meant to be about the front lift escape theory by John Armstrong in which two assassins were supposed to get to the sixth floor by climbing through the roof of the passenger lift, then to climb the fifth floor using a ladder, open the wooden floor of the sixth floor from beneath against boxes of books resting on these wooden boards, and then return back via the same route while Shelley and Lovelady made sure that the lift stays on the fourth floor by switching the electricity off but then on again to allow the lift to start moving? However, Mrs. Sarah Stanton was able to enter the passenger lift immediately after the shooting (so, it was on the first floor, not on the fourth floor) and used it to get to the second floor. I understand that she wished to use the lift because she was overweight, weighing more than 300 pounds. So, I wonder how Mrs. Stanton's movements suit John Armstrong's escape theory: From the FBI report (Warren Commission Exhibit, CD7, undated) on Mrs. Sarah Stanton: “… advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elms Street, Dallas, Texas, and at about 12:30 P.M., on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps of the building as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions, however, she did not know where they came from and immediately went into the building, caught the elevator and went to the second floor offices and into the office of the Southwestern Publishing Company, located there, to try to look out the window and see what was happening… She knows LEE HARVEY OSWALD by sight, being employed by the same concern, but is not personally acquainted with him and did not see OSWALD on November 22, 1963, and she never seen him with a gun.
  6. Thanks, Paul, for your astute comments. Yes, Baker did not identify right away (his affidavit from November 22) Lee Oswald, who was in DPD custody already, as the man whom he allegedly encountered in an open-space area of the 3rd or 4th floor. He added a "lt brown jacket" to his first affidavit as the cloth the man had on himself which could mean a light-brown jacket. I just do not know what Baker's first affidavit means. Superintendent Roy Truly also saw a light-coloured shirt on Oswald on Friday, 22nd of November: This document is available via a link in The Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter.
  7. Jim: once Officer Marrion Baker needs to be brought to support the lift escape theory, something is wrong. There was no second-floor lunchroom encounter between Baker and Lee Oswald, so his referral to a brown shirt which he allegedly saw on Lee Oswald does not sound credible. Bart discovered a few months ago James Hosty's original notes taken during the very first interrogation of Lee Oswald - this authentic record says that Lee went up to the second floor from the first floor (Domino room from where he saw two Afro-American employees passing by), bought Coke, returned back to have lunch and there he was when shots rang out (or when he heard the excitement due to motorcade turning to Houston street). He moved quickly toward the glass door and out and while he stood in the doorway he was photographed by Wiegman and Darnell. At no time point after he bought the Coke did he need to return to the second floor lunchroom to buy another Coke. Marrion Baker was told what to say in his reports and since the dark brown shirt was the one which the FBI needed to have pinned to Oswald (the fibres story explained in Pat Speer's book), Baker told he had seen Oswald wearing a brown shirt. He also said he has seen two white men while moving through the first floor, however, there were no white men there at that moment except Baker and Truly.
  8. It seems that my culture-based interpretation of the colour of CE151 is actually the same as that of Lee Oswald: Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes—long sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page) Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousersbefore going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page). Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ). FBI agent James Bookhout: "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers" (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page). Besides, there is Buell Wesley Frazier's recall of the shirt which Lee wore on Friday morning: Special Agents Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Buell Wesley Frazier and recorded the following: "As Frazier recalls, Oswald was wearing a reddish shirtand a gray jacket, waist length." (WCH vol. 24, 408-410, retrieved from https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0213b.htm).
  9. Jim: I have never described the colour of CE151 as "bright" red, only as light red. CE151 is pinkish, the CE150 which Lee wore during his arrest would be dark brown or brown-red. CE150 was distinctly darker than CE151. These two shirts cannot be interchanged. CE151 is a button-down collar type of shirt, a detail which Lee told his interrogators and which detail excludes the CE150 as the shirt he wore during the time of the assassination. While I do not care what John Armstrong writes about the colour of Oswald's shirt (there are much more serious issues with his escape theory than the colour of the shirt), I do care about knowing exactly which shirt did Lee Oswald wear during morning hours because only the CE151 would not only allow to consider Lee Oswald as Prayer Man but also provide additional circumstantial evidence for this possibility.
  10. Jim: this is one of many points which you keep repeating in spite of data saying otherwise. Lee Oswald wore a light red shirt, CE151, not the dark brown-red shirt, CE150 in the morning hours of Friday, November 22. Please note that he worked all Thursday in the same shirt which he had on himself when he arrived to work on Friday morning. That shirt was dirty and Lee needed to change it and he did after he arrived at his room at North Beckley. I am copying here my text from the thread "Oswald's shirt". Oswald's clothes, similar to his whereabouts or the statements of people who saw him on Friday morning were deliberately kept unclear and even contradicting. This was the disinformation strategy which unfortunately affects us all even today. (While you do not like to refer to Prayer Man in this thread, it may be of interest to you that the colour of CE151 (light-red) matched, after converting it to greyscale, the grey tone of his pants (khaki or grey worker's cloth colour). This combination of similarly grey shirt and slacks is seen in Prayer Man). Posted March 27 (edited) I guess Lee Oswald wore the light-red shirt, Commission Exhibit 151, on Friday morning. That shirt was not seen in colour until 2016 when Pat Speer, thanks to his perseverance, was able to obtain colour pictures of CE 151. Lee Oswald told the interrogators that he had changed his shirt after he arrived at the rooming house, 1026 North Beckley. The quotations below are the statements of law enforcement officers interrogating Lee Oswald. A report by Special Agents Odum and McNeely from their interviews of Buell Wesley Frazier is also quoted as it is relevant to the shirt problem. Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes—long sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page) Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousers before going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page). Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ). FBI agent James Bookhout: "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers" (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page). Besides, there is Buell Wesley Frazier's recall of the shirt which Lee wore on Friday morning: Special Agents Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Buell Wesley Frazier and recorded the following: "As Frazier recalls, Oswald was wearing a reddish shirt and a gray jacket, waist length." (WCH vol. 24, 408-410, retrieved from https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0213b.htm). The best piece on Lee Oswald's shirt is Pat Speer's online book: A New Perspective on Kennedy Assassination. Chapter 4b, Threads of Evidence. The problem was that the FBI identified some fibres on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fibres allegedly matched - CE150, the dark, brownish shirt. They only could continue l.y.i.n.g about the shirt as how could the fibres from CE150 be on the rifle if Lee wore the light-red shirt CE151 during the time of JFK's assassination?
  11. Paul: I agree with your take on Lovelady or Prayer Man being Lee Oswald. I am in the process of reconstructing Altgens6 using 3D modelling, and from what I saw so far there are no doubts in my mind that Lovelady was the man whom many consider being Lee Oswald. By the way, Lovelady stood on the second step, not on the top landing (first step) as he claimed during his testimony for the Warren Commission. An honest error in my view. Please find here a taster of my analysis. In (A), Lovelady is seen standing on the top landing - that would make him much taller than Bill Shelley who stood behind him and to his left. (B) is correct. C and D are overlays of Altgens6 and the 3D model.
  12. James: Welcome to the Forum. I hope you find your Forum debates useful and enjoyable. The neck wound was reconstructed by Tom Wilson in the book A Deeper, Darker Truth (2009) written by Don Phillips. While the method is neither trivial nor easy to understand, Tom Wilson's model of the wound clearly shows the bullet entrance in relation to the surgery. Of note, the bullet entrance wound appeared to be to the right of the opening for the tracheostomy catheter.
  13. For completeness, here are a few black-and-white photographs showing Lee Oswald after his arrest while he still had his CE150 on. The grey level of the shirt, of course, depends on the illumination and therefore, the same shirt can look almost black in poor light to medium grey when illuminated by a flash or top fluorescence light. The combinations of CE151+CE157 and CE150-CE157 are also shown.
  14. Bart: you ran out of arguments and employ arrogance and a very personal-attacking style instead of reason. There are two shirts which need to be considered as candidate Prayer Man shirts. They differ substantially in how dark they would look like after converting their colours into greyscale. One (CE151) appears grey after converting it into greyscale and the level of grey corresponds to the grey seen in CE151 in Warren Commission exhibits. There is almost no difference between the greyness of CE151 (in Warren Commission exhibits or after converting coloured CE151 into a grey scale) and the greyness of the pants. This is what we see in Darnell. It is true that Darnell film is blurred and a multiple times copied document, however, this process would affect all grey tones in the same way. Two grey spots looking similar in their greyness in the first generation copy would maintain their similarity in the fifth generation copy of Darnell. In contrast, the CE150 is a dark brown shirt and reaches a very dark grey tone, close to black, and this difference would not be smeared by copying Darnell film over again. It is not possible that both CE151 and CE150 would match Prayer Man's shirt (and Prayer Man's pants) at the same time. Only one shirt would match (since their grey levels differ so much), and everyone needs to make a choice. My choice, supported by Lee Oswald's statements as reproduced by interrogators, is that it is the light-red shirt which Lee Oswald wore in the morning hours of November 22. Your choice, it seems, is that it was the brown shirt CE150. You will need to answer queries by other researchers asking you how a dark brown shirt can look like a light-grey shirt in Prayer Man in Darnell film. I wanted to explain the possibility of Oswald wearing CE151 during the time of assassination for the record because the problem of Oswald's shirt is too important for Prayer Man cause to leave it unanswered. From my perspective, the record has been made.
  15. Pat: thanks for your thorough analysis of the shirt problem in your online book at patspeer.com. If there would be a trial with Oswald, the "proof" of prosecution of Oswald's guilt as President's assassin owing to fibres from CE150 being on Mannlicher-Carcano rifle would have been dismissed because the defendant side would be able to prove that Lee wore the light-red CE151 during the time of the assassination. There would be questions about how could then the CE150 fibre occur on the rifle. In my opinion, the prosecutor would bailout by saying that the fibres are there because Oswald had the rifle in his possession and manipulated with it while wearing CE150 in the past. So, although the CE150 fibres on the Mannlicher Carcano rifle look bad and equal to planting false evidence, the prosecution would just lose one piece of "evidence". The shirt problem may be one but not the strongest reason for leading Lee Oswald to his death in DPD garages on Sunday morning.
  16. I already provided proofs by comparing both shirts, CE151 and CE150, with the pants Oswald wore on Friday morning (CE157) in my posts here. What more evidence do you need to understand that only the light-red shirt CE151 would match Prayer Man's shirt in Darnell? It is not too difficult to understand what is the consequence for Prayer Man's identity if Oswald wore CE150 (brown shirt) during the assassination.
  17. Bart: I know, whatever I write is wrong, a guess, a belief, laughable, rubbish etc. - in your eyes. There is nothing I can do about it, so ignoring your views is the best way forward. However, whoever opens this thread will be able to compare the quality of our arguments and also see how you react if someone expresses a different opinion. By the way, by dressing Oswald into the dark brown-red shirt you would exclude him as Prayer Man because converting a darker shirt than CE151 into grey scale would make Prayer Man's shirt look darker than his slacks. There is only a limited range of colours which can render the same shade of grey as Prayer Man's grey slacks. Light red (CE151) is one of those colour while a dark brown-red colour (CE150) is not amongst them. Late edit: Here is the brown-red shirt CE150 converted into a grey scale and paired with CE157 (grey pants). Do you really see this dark shirt on Prayer Man in Darnell? If not, then you have only two choices: Prayer Man wore the other Oswald's shirt CE151, or someone else than Lee Oswald wore a light-coloured shirt giving that light grey tone in Darnell film.
  18. And this is how CE151 paired with the grey slacks according to photographs contained in the Warren Commission exhibits.
  19. I guess Lee Oswald wore the light-red shirt, Commission Exhibit 151, on Friday morning. That shirt was not seen in colour until 2016 when Pat Speer, thanks to his perseverance, was able to obtain colour pictures of CE 151. Lee Oswald told the interrogators that he had changed his shirt after he arrived at the rooming house, 1026 North Beckley. The quotations below are the statements of law enforcement officers interrogating Lee Oswald. A report by Special Agents Odum and McNeely from their interviews of Buell Wesley Frazier is also quoted as it is relevant to the shirt problem. Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes—long sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page) Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousers before going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page). Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ). FBI agent James Bookhout: "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers" (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page). Besides, there is Buell Wesley Frazier's recall of the shirt which Lee wore on Friday morning: Special Agents Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Buell Wesley Frazier and recorded the following: "As Frazier recalls, Oswald was wearing a reddish shirt and a gray jacket, waist length." (WCH vol. 24, 408-410, retrieved from https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0213b.htm). The best piece on Lee Oswald's shirt is Pat Speer's online book: A New Perspective on Kennedy Assassination. Chapter 4b, Threads of Evidence. The problem was that the FBI identified some fibres on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fibres allegedly matched - CE150, the dark, brownish shirt. They only could continue l.y.i.n.g about the shirt as how could the fibres from CE150 be on the rifle if Lee wore the light-red shirt CE151 during the time of JFK's assassination? Of note, there would not be any chance that Lee Oswald was Prayer Man if he wore the dark, red-brown shirt CE150 as this shirt would appear much darker than the shirt worn by Prayer Man. Also, only CE151, the light-red shirt, had tails both on the front and the back; the front tail obfuscated the view of the belt on Prayer Man. The brownish CE150 had a rounded hem with no tails. CE 151 from patspeer.com: Late edit: below is an illustration of how the light-red shirt CE151 matches Prayer Man' grey pants after converting the images into grey scale. Please note that Prayer Man in the 3D model is viewed from a slightly different angle compared to Darnell still. Amounts of shadows and lights and the contrast and blurring could still be tweaked, however, this example serves well to say that CE151 could be the shirt which Prayer Man wore on Friday morning and during the assassination.
  20. There is a number of anomalies in BYPs which Jack White, Tom Wilson and others have flagged up. My theory is that BYPs genuinely show Lee Oswald, however, that the pictures were altered in very obvious manner. This gave Lee Oswald a plausible denial - he postured himself as a sort of potentially aggressive leftist in these pictures which could be used to pin guilt on him. However, he could always show that the pictures were manipulated and that gave him protection in any trial. Of course, it is a speculation and hardly anyone besides Lee Oswald could confirm it.
  21. Ray: the reconstruction with myself posturing as Lee Oswald had only the purpose to show that the extreme leaning was actually possible without falling. I had no assistance or navigation as to how to orient my right foot or left arm. The front of the left foot touches the ground but not the heel of the left foot. This is the cost of placing all body weight onto the right foot; the left foot only provides some stability but carries almost no weight. I also did an overlay of Andy onto Lee Oswald's figure to check if Andy's posture would be a good approximation of Lee's posture. However, it is not my intention to argue about the details of my work: the sole purpose was to show that the posture displayed in BYP was humanly possible. By the way, John Butler was able to find, back then when this topic was discussed (2017?), a fitting photograph of young John Kennedy leaning forwards to simulate the angle of the leaning tower of Pisa. It shows how seemingly impossible postures can be actually achieved. Late edit: I hope people can spot the staggering similarity between Lee Oswald's posture in BYP and Prayer Man's posture (with right foot on the second step and carrying all the body weight and the right leg slightly bent in the knee joint).
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