Andrej Stancak

I see, you would just question the credibility of these witnesses. Actually, I trust all these people and appreciate their bravery when facing the lack of understanding or even a direct pressure to retract or change their reports.

I asked Fred on September 16 about how he as a LN defender assimilated into his LN theory the reports of several witnesses seeing people and/or puffs of smoke on Grassy Knoll during the shooting. In my view, the witness reports of Jean Hill, S.M. Holland, Lee Bowers, Bill and Gale Newman, J.C. Price, and Ed Hoffman (my list is not complete) cannot be dismissed. Newman's only heard bullets being fired from their right and behind, they did not see any shooters, but they were clear about shots arriving from the Grassy Knoll. How does the LN theory fare with these data? Fred did not answer. And so I still do not know what a LN theorist thinks about data which so clearly disprove the LN view.

This is a list of 106 Dallas Police officers who were Klansmen. The list names one Chief, one Assistant Chief, three Captains and 10 Sergeants of police and the patrolmen. This list is stored as Mss0016, Earle Cabell: Family History, Box 1, Folder 41, Ben E. Cabell Ku Klux Klan. I am thankful to the staff of the DeGolyer library for finding this document based on my very approximate information. Although the list is undated, it is possible to identify the probable year based on the Chief of Police name, L.W. Brown. Chief Brown was the first man in Dallas police only for a short period of time in the year 1923. Chief Brown was preceded by J.H. Tanner and succeeded by C.W. Trammel (Partners in Blue. 100 Years of History of Dallas Police Department, by C. Stowers, 1983). It is not clear why was Ben E. Cabel associated with the list of Klansmen in DeGoyler collection. Ben Elias Cabell (father of Earle Cabell) was Dallas City Mayor in 1900-1904, and the list is clearly from a much later time than Ben E. Cabell’s his mayoral period. There was a big Klan Day at the State Fair Park in 1923 which was attended by 75,000 Klansmen who were addressed by Hiram Evans, the Imperial Wizard. Chief Brown pioneered the installations of the traffic lights in Dallas. A big tower with traffic lights, man operated, was positioned at the intersection of Elm and Ervay street. However, KKK had a fiest in Dallas as flogging of black people and Jews in Trinity River and lynching black people (e.g., Alex Johnson) was blooming in Dallas during 1922-1924. On one occasion, a Dallas police officer took flogging into his own hands, and was indentified later by his victim Phillip Rothblum. The police officer was acquitted and returned to the force shortly. There are couple of names which are relevant to the investigation of President Kennedy’s death, found by comparing each of 106 names with the Assistant Chief Batchelor list of Assignments, Commission Exhibit 5002. W. Fritz, or Will Fritz – Captain in the Homicide and Robbery Bureau. Fritz joined the Dallas police force in 1921, and he was 27 years old in 1923. Smith, B.B. – Deputy Chief of Police, Director, Civil Defence and Disaster Commission Frasier, W.N. - Captain of Police Doughty, M. – could probably be George M. Doughty, Captain of Police (not confirmed) ? Abbott, R.E. – Forgery Bureau The name “Curry, J.” is listed, however, this cannot be Chief Jesse Curry of fame as he joined the police department only in 1936, and he would be 10 years old 1923. Curry’s father was shortly a member of Dallas police before he became a minister for a Baptist church. Could he be the J. Curry in the list of Klansmen? The list of Klansmen in Dallas police refers to the period of the mid-20th when KKK enjoyed its resurrection, started by William Joseph Simmons and the film Birth of the Nation. The Klan 66 in Dallas was practically disbanded after 1928 and it would be a stretch to take for granted that the people in the list were Klansmen also in the fiftieth and sixtieth of the last century when the issue of integration engulfed another surge of KKK activities. However, it is certainly not impossible. The Dallas police counted 130 officers in 1920’ and the 106 names in the list means that almost every police officer was a Klansman during those times. In the overall US population, about 35% of white males of Christian religion and of non-immigrant status were members of KKK in the 20th of the last century. Thus, police officers were Klansmen more often than average population. I always wondered why did Captain Fritz asked Lee Oswald whether Lee had believed in a “deity” during one of the interrogation sessions. Lee answered : “What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . “ (Mae Brussel, The Last Words of Lee Harvey Oswald, http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae Brussell Articles/Last Words of Lee Oswald.html). The reason for asking could be the Klansmen instinct which despised people who were black or Jews (especially in Dallas), immigrants (especially south-European) and were of other religion than south-protestant. Lee obviously blew it in the last item. Lee offered one more statement which had to enrage every true Klansman: "Life is better for the colored people in Russia than it is in the U.S." While it was normal to be a Klansman in the 20th of the last century, the KKK membership in the fiftieth and sixtieth was less open to an outside view. The scarce information we have, such as Joseph McBride’s interview with officer Brumley may be one of the few remaining bits of information about KKK in the Dallas Police in 1963, although archives may still contain valuable documents such as this list. The attached document is of relatively poor quality because it was converted from a PDF to JPEG. Anyone wishing to see the original PDF, please drop me your email address via a private message.

Joseph: I was able to obtain one list of Klansmen, and am posting it in a new thread.

Thanks for your comment. I will keep searching for a list of DPD Klansmen, just in case. If we knew who from the Dallas Police force was in KKK, it would give a better idea who was in the inner circle within the force, connected more than by their work duties. These officers would cover each other's backs during any investigation.

Joseph: this is a great podcast and a great book of yours, one of my favorite JFK assassination books. I wonder if there is any chance to view the list of Dallas police officers (1960') who were KKK members? Both Chief Curry and Captain Fritz were in KKK during their young years (and maybe even later).

Fred: welcome to the Forum, and congratulations on your new book. While I am one of the conspiracy buffs, I understand how much work it takes to write a book. This particular Forum is a place to debate issues related to JFK assassination. While it is possible to also discuss books on the topic, this assumes that people have purchased a book and wanted to review. There are hundreds of books on JFK assassination and only a very small number of books have been debated here. I would like to know how can a lone-nut explanation deal with the observations of several witnesses seeing people and/or puffs of smoke on Grassy Knoll during the shooting. In my view, the witness reports of Jean Hill, S.M. Holland, Lee Bowers, Bill and Gale Newman, J.C. Price, and Ed Hoffman (my list is not complete) cannot be dismissed. Newmans only heard bullets being fired from left and behind, they did not see any shooters, but they were clear about shots arriving from Grassy Knoll. Did you consider this issue in your conclusions?

Jim: I do not approve your posting of messages by a person who has been banned from this and other forums because of his insulting behaviour towards the moderators and other forum members. This person confuses his impressions and speculations with facts, and keeps repeating his false information without any ability to correct himself. Anyway: 1. The top of Prayer Man's head reached to 5'2'' in Darnell. This is an indisputable fact since the vertical and horizontal dimensions of the doorway are known and it is therefore possible to project the realistic dimensions of the doorway onto Darnell stills. Therefore, Mrs. Stanton who was 5'5'' could not pose as Prayer Man - she would be too tall. Period. After not passing the height criterion, the whole idea of Mrs. Stanton being Prayer Man collapses. The hair colour and the body build and Prayer Man's bent leg are further points refuting Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man. However, this is what the person you represent likes: to argue constantly about some perceptions and subjective assessments. 2. Mrs. Stanton, being a heavyset lady, required some space while on the top landing. The necessary space to accommodate her body was at the back of the doorway, close to the glass window. Please see here the top view of the top landing. It is an earlier version of the doorway with Mrs. Stanton still represented as a relatively thin lady wearing a light-colour shirt. Mrs. Stanton could not see much of events unfolding in front of her from that vantage point and this might have been the reason for a quick return to her office after the shooting. However, there is a "smudge" at the spot behind Bill Shelley's right shoulder in one of Darnell stills (top panel in the figure below) which would correspond to a person 5'5''. 3. As far as the presence of Mrs. Stanton in other films or pictures is concerned, Altgens6 shows the face of a person standing behind Billy Lovelady and close to Bill Shelley's right shoulder, which means to the left of Buell Wesley Frazier and consistent with all statements of Mr. Frazier. I am working on the 3D reconstruction of this scene for some time, and hope to be finished soon.

This is the transcript of the relevant part of the interview with Mrs. Stanton's family members: 02:08: Sarah Stanton saw Lee Oswald on stairs. She asked if she was going down, and he said he is going upstairs.02:32: "No, I am going upstairs" "I came down to get the soda and I am going back ... to the room where he was working" 03:12: Sarah saw Lee Oswald holding a soda in his hand.04:26: Lee got the soda from the machine there.05:03: Sarah said Lee was going to eat and he just came to get a soda.05:48: Sarah asked if Lee was going to have lunch. He said: "No, I am going back to my room."06:09: "The reason ... She wanna to talk to him because he was a very quiet person... and he was not going to... to have a conversation with nobody".06:23: "So, she said he never talked, so she asked him if he was going out to lunch. And he said, "No, just a soda". "07:19: Sarah went down because President was already coming but he was not there yet. So she went to prepare herself and be on the stairs where she met Oswald.08:15: "He went upstairs". Sarah Stanton met Lee Oswald while he was already holding a Coke in his hand. Lee was on stairs during their encounter although this is a bit confusing as it is not clear outright if the stairs were between the first and second floor or the second and third floor. Lee holding a Coke before the motorcade was a big problem for the second floor encounter between Marrion Baker and Lee Oswald. Buying a Coke before the motorcade renders Lee's presence in the second floor lunchroom after the shooting entirely meaningless. This was the reason for suppressing Mrs. Stanton's statements by the law enforcement, even if her statements had played into the cards of Warren Commission: Lee, according to Mrs. Stanton, said he was going up to the room where he was working, which could be the fifth or sixth floor, the floors to which Warren Commission would have loved to pin Lee Oswald. There is also a problem with the time at which the encounter between Mrs. Stanton and Lee Oswald happened. Billy Lovelady's and Bill Shelley's testimonies for the Warren Commission suggest that both these men came out to the doorway early on, not some 5 minutes before the shooting, and Mrs. Stanton was already out when they came out. Mrs. Stanton was out much earlier than 12.25, possibly 12.10 or 12.15. The figure of Prayer Man in Darnell contains sufficient details to accept the possibility of Lee Oswald being Prayer Man. I understand that you see it differently and hope you will change your views later after you see more analyses of Prayer Man's figure.

It is all right, Ken. I understand your disappointment. People had invested their time, funds, careers, family lives, sleepless nights, and fears to find out what happened to John Kennedy, Lee Oswald and Officer Tippit. I have the highest appreciation for these people. Yet, someone may say that it was all in vain as the plotters and the killers have not been brought to justice. I say it all had a purpose. It is like when millions of sperm cells are making their way to the egg but only one can succeed and very often not even one. However, the one which made it would not make it without those million cells around. I am convinced that the case can be solved and that a breakthrough will come. One of the theories (and each is supported by a stamp club, you are right) is correct, we only do not know which one and what cross-talk there is between multiple theories.

I like your natural and logical approach to the height problem, and appreciate your approval.

Chris: The most correct line is the one taking into account the perspective which is the top edge line of the orange-yellow wall. Of course, the wall is 5'2'' and sits on the top landing.This line would connect with the lower aspect of Mr. Frazier's chin. The blue lines crossing Prayer Man's head were all right in the sense that they highlighted an important landmark but they ended just below the chin.

The next figure shows an overlay of Darnell still, the 3D model with the slab, and the blue horizontal line. The top right corner of the slab was slightly higher than the left corner. However, the height of the slab was exactly at the top of Prayer Man's head at about 1/3 of the horizontal length of the slab. While the blue horizontal line is a good approximation of the relative height of Prayer Man compared to Mr. Frazier, the horizontal line of the slab is still a better choice. The result is the same for each of the two solutions (blue line or the horizontal line of the slab) albeit more accurate if the perspective factor is taken into account. The top of Prayer Man's head, if perspective is taken into account, reached to the the lower aspect of Mr. Frazier's chin. I would be grateful for expressing any doubts about the correctness of my analysis and reasoning as if I do not hear any I am inclined to assume that the 5'2'' estimate has been accepted.

The height of the human head is 9.1'' in a male of an average body height, however, it gets to 9.7'' - 10'' in very tall people such as Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier. Here is a copy of a Wikipedia page labelled "Human head": Thus, the height of Mr. Frazier's head was about 10''. Not 7 1/2'' or 8'', it would be a mistake to assume such a small head in an adult male. In Darnell still, the top of Prayer Man's head reaches to the lower edge of Mr. Frazier's chin, and it is therefore reasonable to assume that the height Prayer Man's head reached to was 72'' (Mr. Frazier's body height) - 10 (height of the head) = 62'' or 5'2'' above the plane of the top landing. This is illustrated with the horizontal blue line in the figure below: The question is if drawing this line is justified given the effect of perspective which can alter apparent dimensions of distant and close 3D objects. To check the appropriateness of the simple drawing above, I have placed a slab, a 3D object, into the doorway in such a way that it would cover Prayer Man's head. Recall, Prayer Man stood in the front part of the top landing. The vertical plane crossing the riser of the top step would cross Prayer Man's head about in the centre. The slab is thick enough to also cover the head of Mrs. Stanton should she stay on the top landing at Prayer Man's location (she did not!). And a top view of the slab:

Thanks, Ken, for your comment which I do not know if it was intended to point to the lack of deep research interest on my part of on somebody else's part. I am maybe a fourth-generation researcher. Of course, I would love to speak to the witnesses or to the pioneers of JFK research such as Harold Wiseberg or Mark Lane, unfortunately, this possibility was not given to me. As a fourth-generation researcher, however, I do what I can do and what my predecessors could not do: I am reconstructing the old photographs using 3D modelling, and am able to extract information which previous researchers did not see. I see a big progress in the understanding of what was happening in the doorway during the shooting in spite of many people downplaying or twisting it. As far as Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanon are concerned, I would have hoped that the researchers living in Dallas/Texas had contacted the two ladies in the sixties or seventies when they were both alive and had good memories. In fact, the family members of Mrs. Stanton confirmed that Mrs. Stanton had been approached but she did not want to speak to anyone. It could have been the same with Mrs. Saunders. The FBI testimony of Mrs. Stanton differs from what she told to the family members in several important points indicating that she knew that there was a difference between what happened and what she had told to the FBI. We at least have their photographs which are extremely helpful. The testimonies of the family members will inevitably have limited accuracy and would be filtered not only by memory lapses but also by the fact that they are reported by someone else. Actually, the stakes are high in this or similar now scattered threads related to Prayer Man. The question is whether the person standing close to the western wall in Darnell just after the shooting could be Lee Oswald. The whole official story of the Warren Commission hangs on it and this is not a small or unimportant thing.

John: your camera interpretation certainly has a number of defenders, as does the coke in Prayer Man's hand. It also can be that he did not hold anything and it was the back of his right hand which caused a reflection. My current view is that it is the bottom of a coke bottle orientated flat towards the sun what could cause the contrasting light spot in Wiegman. If so, Prayer Man may have put the bottle into the recess on the second step between Wiegman and Darnell because I cannot see any bottle in Darnell stills. Of course, this is a speculation, I have no data to prove the coke or anything else.

Ken: Mrs. Linda Zambanini was able to retrieve the photographs of Mrs. Sanders and they are in page 1 of this thread. I am not sure if Linda or anyone else have contacted the living family members. While it would be interesting to know if Mrs. Sanders's family had also any memories of the 22nd of November told to them by Mrs. Pauline Sanders, her location in the doorway does not produce too many disputes. She is seen in one, and only one, frame of Darnell film as a tiny person standing very close to the glass window in the eastern part of the doorway: Her body height was about 5'' and it matches the relative body height in a group photograph of standing ladies (page 1). Mrs. Sanders was the second shortest person in the row of ladies suggesting that she was indeed short. I have estimated her body height in my blog article: http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com (January 31, 2018). The hairline of Mrs. Sanders is very unique. It was dark and boyish looking, and created as if a small cap on her head. This hair would be consistent with the hair seen in the tiny person in Darnell still (yellow frame in the picture above). Some uncertainties were about the location of Mrs. Stanton, the other of two ladies standing on the top landing while the motorcade was passing in front of the Depository building. Fortunately, Mrs. Stanton's photograph has also been discovered and her family members confirmed that her body height was 5'4'' - 5'6''. Having these new data, I decided to verify the possibility that Mrs. Stanton could pose as Prayer Man and this was the purpose of my recent posts in this thread. Mrs. Stanton could not be Prayer Man for quite a number of reasons: 1. Mrs. Stanton was too tall relative to the height of the top of Prayer Man's head. The point corresponding to the top of Prayer Man's head was 5'2'' above the plane of the top landing. Mrs. Stanton was too tall (5'5'') and her figure in the 3D model has exceeded Prayer Man's figure. I was able to show the height mismatch using 3D modelling. 2. However, one does not need to use 3D modelling to grasp that Mrs. Stanton would be too tall to be Prayer Man. Her son Larry (6' - 6'1'') was of about the same height as Mr. Frazier. In the photograph in which she and her son stood next to each other, the top of Mrs. Stanton's head reaches to Larry's nose. As Larry and Mr. Frazier were of identical body height, it is possible to to draw an analogy and check how her body height would map onto Mr. Frazier's body. This simple comparison showed that Mrs. Stanton was indeed too tall to be Prayer Man since the horizontal line crossing the top of her head has crossed Mr. Frazier's nose; however, this line is higher than the line crossing the top of Prayer Man's head. My last post actually reproduced this finding using a 3D model. 3. Mr. Stanton had massive upper arms but her upper arms and forearms were comparatively short. Further the lenght of her forearm was about the same as the lenght of her upper arm. In contrast, Prayer Man had an unusally long forearm, much longer than Mr. Stanton's forearm. 4. If fitted to the Prayer Man location, the figure of Mrs. Stanton would show clear disparities with Prayer Man's figure: 1. besides being too tall, her right elbow would not overlap with Prayer Man's elbow joint, it would be much higher and far away from Paryer Man's elbow joint. 2. Mrs. Stanton would stand with her legs straight and her left leg would not cover the visible part of the radiator as Prayer Man's left leg does. 5. Mrs. Stanton had grey hair which created a thick layer above her forehead. This hair is not compatible with Prayer Man's hair which was short, dark and consistent with a male haircut. 6. Mrs. Stanton was obese, she weighed above 300 pounds. As in many obese people, her figure shows her head to be attached to the shoulders as if there was no neck. Prayer Man's figure was that of a slender person and his head was clearly above his shoulders. 7. Mrs. Stanton stood in the vicinity of Mrs. Shelley, Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Williams. Thus, according to her own statements she was in the cluster of people standing about in the centre of the doorway, she did not stand alone at the western wall. 8. Mr. Frazier resoundingly confirmed that Mr. Stanton stood to his left, consistent with Mrs. Stanton's own and other people's testimonies, in his 2002 interview with Gary Mack (53:15). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNq-y_NLvj8&t=3216s

To understand the problem of Mrs. Stanton's figure posing as Prayer Man, I have highlighted with yellow lines few important features in Prayer Man's figure: the contour of his head, the right elbow, and forearm and his bent left leg. Please note the short distance between Prayer Man's right elbow and the head of the man below. # The overlays of these contours (in purple), the Darnell still and Mrs. Stanton's figure are shown in the next two insets which also summarise the unsolvable problems with Mrs. Stanton = Prayer Man solution. Obviously, Mrs. Stanton was too tall to be Prayer Man. The top of her head would reach to Mr. Frazier's nose just like it does in the family photograph, in which Mrs. Stanton's head reached to the nose of her son Larry (6' - 6'1''). The height problem is demonstrated with the blue horizontal line. The yellow line is the height to which the top of Prayer Man's head would reach. As predicted in my previous posts, the right elbow is too high and too far from the head of the man standing three steps lower and who I believe was Mrs. Billy Lovelady. It is not important at this stage if the man was Billy Lovelady or someone else. This head offers an important landmark and every plausible solution has to show that the right elbow is as close to that man's head as Darnell's still shows. The yellow line indicates the large gap in the region of the right elbow. The gap is owing to: 1) the person on the top landing is further away from this man's head compared to Prayer Man who effectively stood on the second step. 2) homologous body parts in two people of unequal body heights (5'9'' and 5'2'') will not be on the same height levels even if the taller of the two people stood 7'' lower than the shorter person. In this particular situation, the elbow joints will be 2'' higher in the short compared to the tall person. 3) Mrs. Stanton was 5'5'' which adds additional 3'' to the elbow height difference. Finally, Prayer Man's bent left leg covers a part of the radiator in Darnell's still but not Mrs. Stanton's legs. Should Mrs. Stanton stand at Prayer Man's location, her straight legs would not obstruct the visible part of the radiator. There is another problem with Mrs. Stanton's location close to the western wall. The back of her right hand does not reflect the sunlight. If she is moved few inches eastwards, her hand would indeed touch the sunlight. In that case, however, other features of her figure would not match Prayer Man, especially her head which would be in front of Prayer Man' head. Of course, the distance from the lower man's head would not decrease, it would rather increase.

[The next two posts were moved from a different thread after realising that the content of that thread was only marginally related to Mrs. Stanton. Please note that the figure of Mrs. Stanton has been updated to the one shown in my latest posts in this thread]. Returning to Mrs. Stanton, let us place her figure (5'5'') onto the top landing and explore how would she fare as Prayer Man. To recall, Mrs. Stanton's figure was carefully modelled using the family photograph in which Mrs. Stanton had posed with her son Larry. Mrs. Stanton was a huge lady weighing more than 300 pounds, with massive (but not long) upper arms and bottom. This is the family photograph and with the figure of Mrs. Stanton: I changed the colours of Mrs. Stanton's clothes to yield grey colors in a black-and-white photograph, and here she is standing at approximate Prayer Man's location. Please note that she is as close to the front edge of the top landing as possible. And a Darnell view with the doorway embedded into Darnell still: The overhead view of the doorway with Mr. Frazier's and Mrs. Stanton's figure may be handy too.

Moved to "Pauline Sanders" thread.

Moved to "Pauline Sanders" thread.

Bart: I took your picture, extended the yellow line and drew another line representing the eastern wall of the building, and then measured the angle between the two lines. The angle is 18.48 degrees. Why do you think this angle would be different from e.g., my estimate of 18.20 degrees? Your analysis supports other analyses whether they were done by calculations using NASA data or using D modelling (Google Earth). As far as the shadow on the right shoulder in Mr. Frazier's figure is concerned, please note that this shadow was cast by the front edge of the doorway ceiling. This shadow would be symmetric on Mr. Frazier's shoulders should he be aligned perfectly with the edge line of the top landing. However, Mr. Frazier stood at an angle relative to the edge line of the top landing and therefore his right shoulder was further back in the doorway than his left shoulder. The consequence of his stance is that the shadow reached lower on the right shoulder than on the left shoulder, and was therefore not symmetrically distributed over the shoulder line. This shadow was not cast by the western pillar though. Mr. Frazier, at that moment, stood quite far from the shadow line related to the western pillar. Please check this overhead view of the doorway. It shows both types of shadows and Mr. Frazier's location which was quite far from the western shadow.

Could you maybe calculate your proposed angle of the shadow line in the doorway?

I should add that the diameter of Prayer Man's upper arm is not something which can clearly favor either Lee Oswald or Mrs. Stanton. The problem is the length of the forearm which was unusually long in Prayer Man's figure. It was Lee Oswald who had a very long forearm. In the figure below, the Poser model of Lee Oswald (middle) needed to have his forearm extended by 10 or 15% compared to a standard male to match Lee's forearm in the NOPD photograph. Before I place Mrs. Stanton on Prayer Man's location, let me point to the dilemma with any figure posing as Prayer Man who would stand with both feet on the top landing. Please observe the short distance between Prayer Man's right elbow and the head of the man standing on the third step from the bottom. Of course, the two points (PM's right elbow and the head of the man below) were in fact about two feet apart, however, Darnell shows the distance as almost a touch. This short distance cannot be reproduced once the figure is moved to the inside of the doorway which would happen by placing Prayer Man with both his feet onto the top landing. Further, Prayer Man's elbow would be about two inches higher in a figure 5'2'' on the top landing compared to someone measuring 5'9'' but standing on the second step. The figure below shows the inevitable two inches increment in the height of the forearms just because standing one step apart (7'') and compensating it by small body height (5'2'' compared to 5'9'') does not yield the same vertical locations of homologous body parts. In case of Mrs. Stanton, we need to add 3'' (this much was she taller than 5'2'') to the 2'' = 5''. The forearm level will be 5'' higher in the figure of Mrs. Stanton posing as Prayer Man compared to Prayer Man we see in Darnell. However, this will move her right elbow even further away from the head of the man standing few steps below. The forearm problems do not end here. Since Mrs. Stanton would be further to the inside of the doorway than Prayer Man standing on the second step her head would need to be aligned with the vertical edge of the aluminum door frame. This can be achieved, however, only on the cost of moving her closer to the wall. Unfortunately, she will move few inches away from the shadow line and the back of her right hand would not reflect the sunlight any longer. So, we would need to move her few inches westwards to have her right hand exposed to the sunlight. However, this will move her away from the plane crossing the vertical line of the door frame. Besides being too tall to be Prayer Man, Mrs. Stanton would not reproduce the distances from other objects in the doorway. I will show some images illustrating Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man soon. However, this small exercise may be useful to appreciate that Prayer Man's location in Darnell s a tight geometric problem which has only one solution. We are lucky that Darnell and Prayer Man yielded this unique combination of spatial relationships. The problem of Prayer Man's height is closely related to his exact location, and the problem is solvable even if it takes some time.

Jim: I agree that the shirt situation largely depends on inferences without any hard evidence and on relying that certain testimonies were truthful. While I would not call it evidence, the upper arm above the elbow joint in Prayer Man's figure appears to be quite wide which may be owing to the rolled-up sleeve. It is a subjective perception which many will not agree with and given the lack of details it is difficult to find a judge.