Andrej Stancak

For completeness, here are a few black-and-white photographs showing Lee Oswald after his arrest while he still had his CE150 on. The grey level of the shirt, of course, depends on the illumination and therefore, the same shirt can look almost black in poor light to medium grey when illuminated by a flash or top fluorescence light. The combinations of CE151+CE157 and CE150-CE157 are also shown.

Bart: you ran out of arguments and employ arrogance and a very personal-attacking style instead of reason. There are two shirts which need to be considered as candidate Prayer Man shirts. They differ substantially in how dark they would look like after converting their colours into greyscale. One (CE151) appears grey after converting it into greyscale and the level of grey corresponds to the grey seen in CE151 in Warren Commission exhibits. There is almost no difference between the greyness of CE151 (in Warren Commission exhibits or after converting coloured CE151 into a grey scale) and the greyness of the pants. This is what we see in Darnell. It is true that Darnell film is blurred and a multiple times copied document, however, this process would affect all grey tones in the same way. Two grey spots looking similar in their greyness in the first generation copy would maintain their similarity in the fifth generation copy of Darnell. In contrast, the CE150 is a dark brown shirt and reaches a very dark grey tone, close to black, and this difference would not be smeared by copying Darnell film over again. It is not possible that both CE151 and CE150 would match Prayer Man's shirt (and Prayer Man's pants) at the same time. Only one shirt would match (since their grey levels differ so much), and everyone needs to make a choice. My choice, supported by Lee Oswald's statements as reproduced by interrogators, is that it is the light-red shirt which Lee Oswald wore in the morning hours of November 22. Your choice, it seems, is that it was the brown shirt CE150. You will need to answer queries by other researchers asking you how a dark brown shirt can look like a light-grey shirt in Prayer Man in Darnell film. I wanted to explain the possibility of Oswald wearing CE151 during the time of assassination for the record because the problem of Oswald's shirt is too important for Prayer Man cause to leave it unanswered. From my perspective, the record has been made.

Pat: thanks for your thorough analysis of the shirt problem in your online book at patspeer.com. If there would be a trial with Oswald, the "proof" of prosecution of Oswald's guilt as President's assassin owing to fibres from CE150 being on Mannlicher-Carcano rifle would have been dismissed because the defendant side would be able to prove that Lee wore the light-red CE151 during the time of the assassination. There would be questions about how could then the CE150 fibre occur on the rifle. In my opinion, the prosecutor would bailout by saying that the fibres are there because Oswald had the rifle in his possession and manipulated with it while wearing CE150 in the past. So, although the CE150 fibres on the Mannlicher Carcano rifle look bad and equal to planting false evidence, the prosecution would just lose one piece of "evidence". The shirt problem may be one but not the strongest reason for leading Lee Oswald to his death in DPD garages on Sunday morning.

I already provided proofs by comparing both shirts, CE151 and CE150, with the pants Oswald wore on Friday morning (CE157) in my posts here. What more evidence do you need to understand that only the light-red shirt CE151 would match Prayer Man's shirt in Darnell? It is not too difficult to understand what is the consequence for Prayer Man's identity if Oswald wore CE150 (brown shirt) during the assassination.

Bart: I know, whatever I write is wrong, a guess, a belief, laughable, rubbish etc. - in your eyes. There is nothing I can do about it, so ignoring your views is the best way forward. However, whoever opens this thread will be able to compare the quality of our arguments and also see how you react if someone expresses a different opinion. By the way, by dressing Oswald into the dark brown-red shirt you would exclude him as Prayer Man because converting a darker shirt than CE151 into grey scale would make Prayer Man's shirt look darker than his slacks. There is only a limited range of colours which can render the same shade of grey as Prayer Man's grey slacks. Light red (CE151) is one of those colour while a dark brown-red colour (CE150) is not amongst them. Late edit: Here is the brown-red shirt CE150 converted into a grey scale and paired with CE157 (grey pants). Do you really see this dark shirt on Prayer Man in Darnell? If not, then you have only two choices: Prayer Man wore the other Oswald's shirt CE151, or someone else than Lee Oswald wore a light-coloured shirt giving that light grey tone in Darnell film.

And this is how CE151 paired with the grey slacks according to photographs contained in the Warren Commission exhibits.

I guess Lee Oswald wore the light-red shirt, Commission Exhibit 151, on Friday morning. That shirt was not seen in colour until 2016 when Pat Speer, thanks to his perseverance, was able to obtain colour pictures of CE 151. Lee Oswald told the interrogators that he had changed his shirt after he arrived at the rooming house, 1026 North Beckley. The quotations below are the statements of law enforcement officers interrogating Lee Oswald. A report by Special Agents Odum and McNeely from their interviews of Buell Wesley Frazier is also quoted as it is relevant to the shirt problem. Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes—long sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page) Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousers before going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page). Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ). FBI agent James Bookhout: "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers" (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page). Besides, there is Buell Wesley Frazier's recall of the shirt which Lee wore on Friday morning: Special Agents Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Buell Wesley Frazier and recorded the following: "As Frazier recalls, Oswald was wearing a reddish shirt and a gray jacket, waist length." (WCH vol. 24, 408-410, retrieved from https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0213b.htm). The best piece on Lee Oswald's shirt is Pat Speer's online book: A New Perspective on Kennedy Assassination. Chapter 4b, Threads of Evidence. The problem was that the FBI identified some fibres on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fibres allegedly matched - CE150, the dark, brownish shirt. They only could continue l.y.i.n.g about the shirt as how could the fibres from CE150 be on the rifle if Lee wore the light-red shirt CE151 during the time of JFK's assassination? Of note, there would not be any chance that Lee Oswald was Prayer Man if he wore the dark, red-brown shirt CE150 as this shirt would appear much darker than the shirt worn by Prayer Man. Also, only CE151, the light-red shirt, had tails both on the front and the back; the front tail obfuscated the view of the belt on Prayer Man. The brownish CE150 had a rounded hem with no tails. CE 151 from patspeer.com: Late edit: below is an illustration of how the light-red shirt CE151 matches Prayer Man' grey pants after converting the images into grey scale. Please note that Prayer Man in the 3D model is viewed from a slightly different angle compared to Darnell still. Amounts of shadows and lights and the contrast and blurring could still be tweaked, however, this example serves well to say that CE151 could be the shirt which Prayer Man wore on Friday morning and during the assassination.

There is a number of anomalies in BYPs which Jack White, Tom Wilson and others have flagged up. My theory is that BYPs genuinely show Lee Oswald, however, that the pictures were altered in very obvious manner. This gave Lee Oswald a plausible denial - he postured himself as a sort of potentially aggressive leftist in these pictures which could be used to pin guilt on him. However, he could always show that the pictures were manipulated and that gave him protection in any trial. Of course, it is a speculation and hardly anyone besides Lee Oswald could confirm it.

Ray: the reconstruction with myself posturing as Lee Oswald had only the purpose to show that the extreme leaning was actually possible without falling. I had no assistance or navigation as to how to orient my right foot or left arm. The front of the left foot touches the ground but not the heel of the left foot. This is the cost of placing all body weight onto the right foot; the left foot only provides some stability but carries almost no weight. I also did an overlay of Andy onto Lee Oswald's figure to check if Andy's posture would be a good approximation of Lee's posture. However, it is not my intention to argue about the details of my work: the sole purpose was to show that the posture displayed in BYP was humanly possible. By the way, John Butler was able to find, back then when this topic was discussed (2017?), a fitting photograph of young John Kennedy leaning forwards to simulate the angle of the leaning tower of Pisa. It shows how seemingly impossible postures can be actually achieved. Late edit: I hope people can spot the staggering similarity between Lee Oswald's posture in BYP and Prayer Man's posture (with right foot on the second step and carrying all the body weight and the right leg slightly bent in the knee joint).

The problem of extreme leaning in the backyard picture has been already discussed on this Forum. I guess it is possible to reproduce Lee Oswald's posture without losing balance. I have modelled the posture using a human avatar named Andy in Poser 11.1. Using Andy's figure, it is possible to visualise the relationships and angles in legs, hips and arms.

It is a tough call. There are good arguments on both sides to claim either possibility: that Lovelady and Shelley are out and walking, or that they are still in the doorway during the moments when Darnell filmed the doorway. I am inclined, after giving it considerable time and effort, to prefer the latter possibility. 1. The doorway in Darnell was captured only some 30 seconds after the last shot. At that moment, people were still in shock and frozen and had no reason to walk seomewhere else right away. Therefore, there is still continuity with the preceding Wiegman scene in which both Lovelady and Shelley are seen all right. Bill Shelley is the man in a dark suit and wearing a black tie and standing at the centre of the top landing. Lovelady is seen descending the steps in the last Wiegman frames, so he could be where some think he was in Darnell, on the second step and very close to the western wall. It is possible that Lovelady stopped at the second step at the moment just after the Wiegman sequence ended and took the exact spot previously occupied by Carl Jones. 2. I have modelled both men of interest in Darnell. The man in the front is leaning towards his left at an angle which is almost equal if not equal to the leaning seen in Lovelady in Altgens6. The body height of that man was 5'8'', give or take half of an inch. The overlay with a realistic model of Lovelady works well. This does not prove identity on itself, however, at least does not exclude Lovelady. As far as Shelley's figure is concerned, he himself told the Warren Commission that he did not do anything for about a minute after the last shot, meaning he stood in Darnell at the spot where he is seen in Altgens and Wiegman. I was able to reconstruct his figure by fitting a man of about 5'4''-5'6''. The man standing in the centre of the doorway in Darnell is shorter by at least 2 inches than Lovelady. This is consistent with reports of people who met and knew Bill Shelley. According to these reports (acquired and reported by Bob Proudhomme in the original "Oswald leaving the TSBD?" thread), Shelley was 5'6'' as a maximum. My reconstruction of Altgens6 shows him 5'4'' or 5'4 1/2''. 3. As Shelley was shorter than Lovelady, this poses problems to the possibility of these two men being captured by Couch(Darnell) in front of the Depository because the man resembling Lovelady is shorter than then man believed to be Shelley. 4. The men seen walking in Couch/Darnell do not appear to walk together. They arrived to the spot at which they look as close to each other from different directions and with different speeds; they certainly did not walk in synchrony before the snapshot showing them close together. 5. Likewise, each of the two men continues walking in different directions after the snapshot showing them close together. The men resembling Lovelady walks toward the railroad tracks, and the man resembling Shelley slows down and seems to stop at the concrete island. 6. Lovelady has an orthopaedic problem manifesting in having his head too much forward relative to the front plane of his chest. This causes rounded back or a hunch. I cannot see this feature in the man walking in front of the building. 7. I took the original frames of the Gerda Dunkel GIF and analysed them one by one. I believe that the frame showing both men in this GIF as if walking together has been enhanced to an extreme. Looking at the original frame, there is no bold spot on the top of "Lovelady's" head. 8. Carl Jones is seen to arrive to the concrete island and stepping on the lamp there after walking quite fast from the front steps of the doorway towards the concrete island. He would be the first person from those standing on the steps to arrive to the concrete island because his way was unimpeded. It would be difficult for Shelley to overrun him from his post at the centre of the top step (especially after he said he had remained standing there for about a minute). Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion on what is one of most puzzling questions regarding whereabouts of these two men.

John: thanks for mapping all possible escape routes from the sixth floor; this is very useful. The fire escape has been maybe the first idea of Officer Baker and a reason for his dash towards the wast corner if the building first before he entered the Depository via main entrance. Difficult to find any hard evidence after more than 55 years, is it not?

Paul: welcome to the forum, I hope you will enjoy it. Can you please post a link to the ASME standard 1955? I would also like to know about the rules pertaining the shaft and the roof of the shaft. In my view, we need to see the architecture plans of the building and to know the type of the passenger elevator as of 1963 to be able to to evaluate what was possible and what was not. As to the light seen on the sixth floor, there was also a light in in the lobby right behind the glass door (1st floor) in Darnell film, taken some 30 s after the shooting. The reasons for Baker and Truly not being able to call any of the two freight elevators could be that only one of the elevators had the ability to be called from a remote floor and only if the elevator door was properly closed. The other elevator could not be called at all. There could be a simple explanation for the failure to call a lift when the two men got to the back of the first floor.

Jim: some elevators have safety hatches, some not. Some have them visible to the passengers and some not. However, the safety hatches in all lifts open from ouside as the law requires else passengers such as young male adolescents would roam in the elevator shafts just for fun... Do you know what type of elevator was installed in the TSBD? The Sixth Floor Museum could know this information, and they also can have the 1961 architect building plans which would show the construction of the shaft. The idea that the elevator would hang on the wooden boards and joints of the sixth floor appears unlikely.

Jim: The Otis lift had a square on the top deck looking like a safety exit hatch but it could only be open with a special key; just pressing on it did not help. It is a law that the hatch can be only open from outside the lift. The other video appears weird - had the chair in the lift? The passengers smiled and it all looked strange. It certainly did not look like a US or EU country with strict safety rules. Please consider this: the lift shaft was bricked from the bottom to the top of the fifth floor. The shaft had its own roof which was below the wooden floor of the sixth floor. Even if you would remove the boards on the sixth floor, you could not jump into the shaft as there would be still a shaft roof. It is an illusion to think that if you would remove few boards you could jump straight into the shaft - this is called safety. I see no sign of any opening on the sixth floor in the vicinity of the second east window on the sixth floor before or after placing new plywood in the pictures you posted. If there was important access to the shaft there, it would be either ring-fenced or sign-posted, and it would be on the floor map of the sixth floor. There was no such opening because the shaft was never meant to be accessible from the top.

Paul, my understanding is that you cannot access the shaft from the top (e.g., from the sixth floor in case of TSBD). Any service check of the area above the lift (above the 4th floor) had to be done by moving the lift car just below the level of the fourth floor and stepping on the roof of the car. There was most likely a ladder in the shaft (above the fourth floor) allowing to climb up to the top of the shaft. However, one could not break through into the room above the shaft by standing on the top of the ladder and pushing the roof of the shaft because that roof (which was also the floor of the sixth floor) was stiffened to prevent an accident if a board on the sixth floor would loosen. Another way of checking the area above the lift (the fifth floor) was moving the lift to below the level of the fourth floor, opening the door, stepping on the roof of the car and then having an assistant move the car up to its normal 4th floor level. The technician standing on the top of the car would then effectively be on the fifth floor and could do the necessary maintenace there in this way.

Thanks, Paul, for giving it such thorough thougth. We will know Jim's view on Shelley and Lovelady's presence in the first floor one minute after the shooting when Jim completes his reading of The Girl on the Stairs. I am not happy to show distrust to John's escape theory as I read his book and learned a lot from it. However, CT researchers have the big responsibility not to let themselves be carried by fancy possibilities which cannot be proven because we can cause a big damage to the whole CT case. The escape from the sixth floor using the elevator shaft would require an opening on the sixth floor at the area above the lift shaft. I cannot see it on any photograph of the sixth floor. Neiher it is drawn on the map of the sixth floor. There was no such opening, and piles of books covered about the half of the floor area above the passenger lift. I was puzzled by absence of any opening on the fifth floor and thought it would be on the sixth floor, however, it is neither on the sixth nor the fifth floor. It was not needed. The necessary maintenance and checks of the top of the lift or of the top-most part of the shaft (5th floor) is done by parking the car below the level of the floor (e.g., just below the level of the 4th floor) and opening the door. This allows the technician to step on the top of the lift cabin where there can be small motors (e.g., for closing the lift door, or for ventilation of the cabin) and some solid metal beams and hinges with metal ropes which carry the weight of the lift. As per air pressure wave, a traction lift moves slowly and there are clefts around the car which makes the space above and below the car one continuous volume. There is no strong air pressure wave in the shaft in a four story building in which a traction lift is moving slowly from floor to floor. The empty space above the lift (fifth floor) would accumulate the extra air pushed by the lift, and the rest would flow down through the spaces around the lift. The traction lifts in a comparatively small building may not even have the trap door on the roof of the cabin, and no vents anywhere above the lift. I work in a building 1970' with two stories. I asked about the trap door in our lift, and the technicians told me there is none in the lift; if I am ever in trouble while in the lift I have to call them. My point is that there was no opening on the sixth floor which could be open to climb down to the shaft. This is the reason for not seeing it on the sixth floor map or on any photographs. If there were such opening, it would be ring-fenced and signposted to avoid people to step on it, not to mention to place heavy boxes on it. Actually, the top of the shaft is stiffened from below by metal plates to prevent someone to break through the wooden boards and fall down into the shaft. All this just makes the passenger lift escape theory improbable not only for the access phase but also for the escape phase.

Jim: It is for you and John to show that the TSBD passenger elevator (made in 1961) had a trap door open and ready for an easy access. Elevators 1961 were already modern elevators looking similar to many elevators we use in the buildings made 1970-1990. These elevators have neat cabins with trap door locked from the outside and not visible to the passengers, and not accessible from the inside of the car without stepping on something. What type was this passenger elevator- Otis, Krone, Westinghouse? If we knew, we could find such an elevator in companies archives or they may even be in use somewhere. The onus to know these facts is on you, not on the reader. Thinking that the trap door was opened prior to assassination is another speculation which would need to be proven. But even if this would be the case, you have not explained how a man standing alone on the platform can squeeze himself without any support through the trap door to ascend to the shaft. The roof on every old lift I saw is well and neatly covered - how would it be possible to open and then close it in the short time and without causing noise? When would it happen? Would it be already 15 minutes before the shooting which was the time when Arnold Rowland saw two men on the sixth floor? Why would employees avoid using the passenger lift such a long time before the motorcade arrival? Was the electricity already off 15 minutes prior to shooting so that the two assassins could work on the top deck to get to the shaft?

Bumped for Jim. I am of the view that the whole escape theory is impossible owing to the trap door problem (although there is a number of problems with witness testimonies as well). Contrary to what John Armstrong and you try to suggest, the exit hatch cannot be open from the inside of an elevator. The safety exit door on the top of the lift can only be open from outside using a special key which only firearm staff or lift maintenance have. The inner roof of every lift is neatly covered and usually holds a light. It is a major technical operation to open the roof of a lift and it is meant as the final rescue solution. In a way, I feel sorry for John who put a lot of effort into pursuing the vent shaft escape scenario, and I learned a lot from this case - it can happen to everyone strongly believing in something. My advice would be to withdraw the article describing the escape route using the passenger lift because it damages John's reputation.

Thanks, Jim. Your theory makes me explore the lifts. Of course, I am not an expert and can only rely on information acquired by searching through the Internet. It seems that the emergency trap door on the top of the car is not accessible to people in the lift - it is for rescuers, not for the passengers to rescue themselves. This is what I found on the Imminent Threat Solution website: "As mentioned previously, the emergency exit hatch at the top of the elevator is more than likely locked from the outside, as required by law. You may not even be able to reach this unless there’s another person in the elevator to help you, or a railing to stand on." https://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/escape-and-evasion-skillcom/elevator-action-how-to-escape-being-trapped-in-an-elevator/ Late edit: The reason why elevator exit hatch can only be open from outside using a special key is that if there is a technical problem then to be inside a car itself is the safest option for the passengers. The hazard of falling or being injured by the lift which can start moving abruptly or by objects in the shaft is extreme.

Can anyone help me with what appears to be a triviality but what puzzles me a great deal: John believes that the two assassins used the passenger lift both for getting to the sixth floor (allegedly, this was easy) and for escaping. I checked some youtube videos proudly showing lifts made in 1960'. All lift cars I saw had a neat ceiling with a cover in their interior. Of course, the ceiling cover could be dismounted if needed, however, this would not go without using instruments or damaging the top deck of the car. It would require time and some work to free the exit from the car. So, how the assassins got out from the lift car? They had to unscrew the top deck, and then one by one squeeze themselves through the opening on the top. The first going man had it easy because the second man still standing in the car could help. However, the second man would just not get out as there was no one who could lift him. How much noise would it cause? The fourth floor was pretty much packed with ladies (about 7-8 of them) who chose to watch the motorcade from their office. One side of the lift box was a part of their office, so they would hear some noise causes by the assassins as they were working on the top deck to free the opening, and by climbing up to the fifth floor. There was apparently a ladder above the car in the shaft connecting the fifth and sixth floor. Still, how could they free the boards and remove the piles of books which exerted a weight upon the boards? How much time would it take to create the opening on the sixth floor and why e.g., Bonnie Ray Williams did not hear or see them? I gather only one man using only one hand could work at that stage because he would be standing on a narrow ladder and holding himself with one hand on the ladder. The problems were not smaller on their return. One by one they would have to jump from the top of the car into the lift car (some 7 feet height). That would occur on the fourth floor. Another big noise when the second man would jump onto the platform of the lift. How comes that no one heard the two loud jumps? Then they needed to mount the top back, possibly using a screwdriver. However, the white-shirt assassin needed to be in the second floor lunchroom before Baker and Truly got to the lunchroom as they saw (90 seconds after the last shot) Oswald wearing a brown shirt (it was light red, however, this is a different story). Thus, the lift had to move down from the fourth floor to the second floor right away without spending any time on mounting back the top deck. The car allegedly stayed on the second floor at that moment and one assassin remained in the car. Could he alone mount the top deck without any help? There were already people on the second floor (Mrs. Hine, Mrs. Reid, Mr. Williams, Mr. Campbell, Mrs. Stanton) and how comes they did not see/hear any noise coming from the lift as the poor assassin was trying to fix the top deck of the lift? There is also a problem with the movements of both the white- and brown-shirt Oswald. The white-shirt Oswald got to the second floor lunchroom before Truly and Baker reached the second floor, he had to buy a Coke and move from the back of the second floor to the front of that floor. This is what Mrs. Reid saw after she returned to her office about 2 minutes after the last shot - Oswald holding a Coke was walking from the lunchroom to the stairs in the front of the second floor. The timing does not seem to hold because Mrs. Reid came to her place with other workers in one batch only after Baker and Truly allegedly accosted Oswald in the lunchroom. Further, the white-shirt Oswald would not leave via back stairs but via the front stairs. An even more puzzling thing is that the brown-shirt Oswald did not need any Coke because he was seen and asked about where he was going by Mrs. Stanton minutes (around 12.20) before the shooting, and this brown-shirt Oswald said he was going to buy a Coke for his lunch. So, only one Oswald could possibly go to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke, and it could only be the white-shirt Oswald. However, Baker said the man he had seen had a brown jacket on himself.

Jim: Sawyer did not say that the lift has just landed and the man who exited the lift advised them. Instead, he said the lift was there when he arrived and they run into that man. That man appeared to have stood in front of the lift door and advised the officers before they entered the lift, and it could have been a Depository employee as Sawyer believed. So, that man could stand there when Sawyer arrived, and they "run into him". Does this sound plausible?

Paul: The testimony of Inspector Sawyer does not say that the man who stood in the vicinity of the passenger lift and advised them was just exiting the lift. The lift apparently was stationary on the first floor as they approached the lift. The man in question may have stood right in front of the lift and he appeared to be an employee. Both Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were back in the building after first going about 100 yards in direction of the railroad yard; they came back in 3-4 minutes which was just before Sawyer entered the building after having a brief chat with some officers there. Both Shelley and Lovelady testified that they had stood at lift doors (not clear whether the passenger or freight lifts) and helped officers to get to higher floors. It is all about the interpretation of these statements: "We got into the elevator. We run into this man" Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.

I wonder if the man whom Marrion Baker had seen on the 3rd or 4th floor, according to his very first report, could take the front elevator to get to the first floor. People remained in the offices during the assassination and some of them could decide to go down, in which case the passenger elevator would have been an option. According to this escape theory, two men got to the elevator and one of the men was in the 2nd-floor lunchroom about a 1 minute after the shooting.. This would mean that the other man had to stay in the elevator while the elevator remained motionless for 3 more minutes without anyone wanting to use it. Is this likely?

All right, I leave it here. Thanks for bringing on this interesting topic. I was trying to find out if there is any chance to get to the architectonic plans of the building at the time of two reconstructions (1961 and 1981), however, this would require an effort which I cannot invest at the momenent. I would like to know the details of the lift construction and how any lift-related objects the 5th and 6th floor looked like. In some countries, every building undergoing a major reconstruction has to have the plans approved by he city's building commission and the building plans are archived with the project applications. I would hope that the City of Dallas would have the architectonical plans of TSBD in their archives. Even the Sixth Floor Museum could have such plans.