Andrej Stancak

Jim: the Warren Commission does contain inaccuracies such as the alleged sighting of two white men on the first floor by Officer Baker. An example: Billy Lovelady told the Warren Commission he had stood on the top landing (when photographed by Altgens). In reality, he stood one step below the top landing. Lovelady may not have remembered well, it could be an innocent mistake. With Baker's testimony, the fact that the Commission did not ask who these two white men were only meant that these were actually two Afro-American gentlemen, Troy West and Eddie Piper. This is the reason why it was not followed up. How it got changed to white men, I do not know. It could have been an honest error or it was an attempt to support the possibility of Vicki Adams seeing Shelley and Lovelady which she denied. Neither Sandra Styles nor Vicki Adams ever approved your version of events in which Shelley and Lovelady were in the back of the first floor before Baker and Truly. You seem to arbitrarily select which parts of Warren Commission testimonies you believe and which not. So, according to John and yourself, Baker' white men and Vicki Adams' Shelley and Lovelady in the back of the first floor within a minute were true events. However, since Shelley' and Lovelady's Warren Commission testimonies do not fit your theory, you choose not to believe them and this is how you make your theory possible. While it continues to boggle my mind that you question Vicki Adams's story as described in Barry Ernest's book, we also have an interview with Buell Frazier. Below is a transcript from the "Living History with Buell Wesley Frazier" interview recorded by the Sixth Floor Museum and posted on August 27, 2013. Mr. Fagin led the interview. The interview can be found on YouTube.com by typing the title of the video broadcast. Frazier confirms Shelley's and Lovelady's statements for the Warren Commission. The relevant section of the interview starts at 33 min 50 s: Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all? Mr. Frazier: (pause) I did. This was all... I do not know how many minutes later … (noisy recording), but the lady I stand next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady came by, a woman came by, she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". Of course, there is also Darnell film showing a person wearing a tie and suit (the only person in the doorway wearing a suit and a tie was Shelley), being of Shelley's body height and standing at the location he occupied in Wiegman and Altgens, and himself saying that he did not do anything for about a minute (= he stood where he stood earlier), however, since the picture is blurry, he could not stand there, could he?

John: I am not sure, Tony may be right. It can be the east-north corner of the building we view in which case the critical second east window is not seen in this picture.

The image of the sixth floor shown by John is most likely the south-east view with the second east window in view. The arched type of the windows we see in John's picture was only on the sixth floor south wall, not on the north side. Frankly, I see nothing like a ventilation opening on the sixth floor. It is neither in the images showing the arrangement of boxes after the shooting nor in the open view of the sixth window shown by John. Moreover, it is not drawn in the floor map of the sixth floor. It should have been drawn in the floor map if this was the only access to the lift machinery sitting on the fifth floor. If it served air flow, why would it be covered with rows of books? Who placed them back on the ventilation hole when the two alleged assassins were already inside the fifth-floor box and could not do it themselves? It may be worthy to contact the living witnesses (Mr. Lewis, Mr. Frazier?) to learn more about the technical aspects of the passenger elevator. There may be more documentation about the building in the municipal archives or in the holdings of the Sixth Floor Museum.

I am puzzled by the drawing of the fifth-floor map which says no opening on the lift box on that floor. The building was a five-story building in 1895, and the lift machinery was located on the fifth floor. This entailed the wheel and the engine because it was a traction lift. I guess there should be some access to the lift mechanism from the fifth floor for maintenance purposes. It would not be practical to have the only access through a comparatively small opening from the floor above.

Sandy: I think we understand Vicki Adams' s story the same way, and it is a pleasure for me to be on the same boat with you if not on all then at least on this point.

Jim: The two white men: did you consider a mistake by Baker in saying they were white? No one else but Baker mentioned the presence of two white men in the back of the building that soon after the shooting. Eddie Piper and Troy West, to my knowledge, were the two men staying on the first floor during the shooting. One of them was seen by Vicki Adams as she reached the first floor. It would be strange if Truly would see two unknown white men in his building just after the shooting, and Baker and Truly would just pass them and not even ask who they were. Eddie Piper confirmed seeing Truly and another man as they got to the building. If one of the men was sitting there (according to Baker), this man could hardly be an assassin - such a man would use any opportunity to leave the building. Late edit: I start to understand the difference between your and my interpretation of the two white men. In my view, the illogical reference to two white men in the first floor during the moments when Truly and Baker reached the back of the first floor is either an innocent mistake (Baker should have said "black" instead of "white"), or more likely an attempt to further support Vicki Adams's falsely added statement about her meeting Shelley and Lovelady. This was in a desperate attempt to save the second-floor encounter between Baker and Oswald. Replacing "black" with "white" in Baker's testimony had the same purpose as adding Shelley and Lovelady to Vicki Adams' testimony. In your theory, Baker's reference to two white men was a reflection of a true course of events which Warren Commission was scared to reveal, namely that Shelley and Lovelady ran to the back of the first floor right after the shooting to manipulate the switches in the electrical box, and Vicki Adams saw them while they were there. As Warren Commission knew the truth about the 1st-floor escape route, they needed to cover it up and therefore, the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady were arranged in such a way that these two people were nowhere in the back of the building so early (1 minute) and their movements including going to the concrete island were concocted. I should also say that all testimonies surrounding Oswald's movements were kept as hazy and unexplored as possible by the FBI, WC and Dallas Police.

Jim: I recall reading John's article at least 2 years ago, and it looked to me the same when I enquired a couple of days ago. Mind that I did not have any intention to memorise every detail of John's article during my first reading and of every revision made between then and now. I certainly trust you if you say that Shelley+Lovelady part was added more recently. The images are fuzzy but they show three people (Williams, Shelley, Stanton) there who stood at the same places as before. Only 30 seconds has elapsed from the last shot when Darnell film was captured. If you say that Shelley was not there on the top landing, then who would be the person standing in the middle of the cluster of three? It was someone of the height of Bill Shelley, he stood at his spot, it was about 10--20 seconds after Wiegman film. Of course, you can say that the images are fuzzy and claim that everyone lied (Adams by trying to distance herself from seeing Shelley and Lovelady, Shelley when he said he stood at his spot for a minute or so), however, images do not lie. They may be difficult to read, indeed. Thanks for explaining to me your interesting theory. I remain unconvinced with Shelley and Lovelady part as I believe that they indeed went to the concrete island and then they returned back to the building about 3-4 minutes after the last shot, and this is not compatible with these two people colluding with the conspirators by switching on or off the mains in the building. This clearly is not a problem forJohn and yourself.

Jim: Leavelle visited Vickie Adams the night she had changed apartment to avoid being constantly harassed by the FBI/DPD who asked her always the same thing: how she got to the first floor and whom she saw. Vicki told no one the address of her new apartment. Leavelle used an unbelievable and unlikely explanation for his visit by saying that there was a fire in DPD and the files with testimonies were burnt, so he wanted to ask again. Vicki Adams did not sign Leavelle's report. So, yes, Vicki was an extraordinary threat to Warren Commission version of events in which Oswald had to get to the first floor before Baker and Truly came in to the second floor. This is why her testimony was altered, she was not given a chance to authorise it (she actually authorised the version which did not make it into the Warren Report). You should read Barry's book before writing your opinions. I read it twice, about a month ago for the second time. I also read John's escape article. Actually, I read it about two years ago, and immediately saw the problem with Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady who were presented as co-conspirators. The way how the movements of these two men are presented in John's article is incorrect and if the theory hinges on this, then it is also the end of the first floor escape route. To the pictures: Bill Shelley is the man in dark suit with a black/dark tie standing in the centre of the top landing in Altgens6. This man is also seen at this spot in Wiegman film (taken seconds after the last shot) and also in Darnell. With Darnell, the situation is a bit complicated because there are three persons standing at the center of the doorway create one large blob. Yet, I was able to reconstruct this blob, and can provide step by step explanation of how I achieved this solution. Bill Shelley is the person delineated by blue contour lines in (D). Darnell film was captured about 30 s after the final shot. To recall: Mr. Ball. What happened; what did you do then? Mr. Shelley. I didn't do anything for a minute.

Jim: I do not know if there was any shooting from the sixth floor, it may well be that the shots came from the Daltex building nearby. I sincerely do not know and am therefore not proposing my view of how any assassins had escaped from the sixth floor. If I once have a theory, I will phrase it and post it for people to comment on it. However, John and yourself have a theory and you brought it here (thank you for this), therefore, we are discussing your theory. Your theory entails several speculations of which all needed to be true for your escape theory to be true. I questioned some of the points. Since I am involved in the reconstructions of the doorway scenes and am familiar with witness testimonies, books and photographic evidence pertaining the doorway, I immediately spotted the problem with your escape route theory in assuming that Bill Shelley was a co-conspirator who was there right after the shooting to pull the power switch allowing the first floor lift to depart from the fourth floor. Only, that he was not there. You repeatedly point to the Warren Commission testimony of Vicki Adams which says that Adams did meet Shelley and Lovelady in the vicinity of the frail lifts (where the power switches were located). However, this part of her testimony is not what she told the Warren Commission. She never saw the two men at the moment when she and Sandra got down to the first floor. I wonder if you actually have read Barry Ernest's book. As per Shelley's movement, he could not be in the back of the first floor seconds after the last shot to resume the power in the building by pulling the switch in the mains box. 1. He said in his Warren Commission testimony to have stayed on the top step where he stood during Altgens6 and Wiegman for about a minute or so. 2. He is seen at his spot in the centre of the top landing in the cluster of people in Darnell film. This is about 30+ seconds after the final shot. 3. He was seen by Buell Frazier to depart the steps toward the concrete island after Gloria Calvary told them after the shooting. This is fully consistent with the previous points 1 and 2. So, either you find someone else than Shelley who credibly was at the back of the first floor near the power switches just at the right moment after the shooting or your escape route theory suffers a fatal flaw. There are other problems with your escape route theory. Did you elaborate on what time was necessary for the assassins to get to the first floor (after the last shot)? This is important to know as there were many people in the vestibule behind the glass door within some 2 minutes after the last shot. Should the assassins come at about 2 minutes after the last shot, they would open the lift door and bump into people there. While you think this is all right, my view is that no assassin would crawl through two floors to get to a lift which spills them where potential witnesseses stand. How comes that no traces were left after lifting the wooden boards and returning them back to their place from the inside of the lift shaft? The assassins would one by one have to squeeze through a tiny opening on the top of the lift box. This not only takes time but it also causes noise. The noise would come from the lift on the fourth floor at which floor several people have stayed. They would likely hear the noise of someone jumping from the top of the lift onto the lift platform. What about the rifles(?). Did they carry the rifles with them when exiting the first-floor lift? Was it not an obstacle when squeezing through the lift opening? Were they two or three people? If three, was the lift big enough to carry them all?

Well, you were vague enough, however, you wrote that my "theory" (I do not have any theory) differs from your view and your view states that Warren Commission had fabricated the encounter between Vicki and Sandra and Shelley and Lovelady. It is not true that my view would be different from your view in this particular respect. You put my views alongside Jim's view, and Jim actually says that such an encounter did happen because it is in Warren Commission's testimony of Vicki Adams. This is how you misinterpreted my views. The only point we differ is that I read the testimonies and photographic materials differently to you and the people you mention. I say that it indeed took several minutes to Shelley and Lovelady to return to the building after staying for about a minute or so (Bill Shelley's words) in the doorway before moving to the concrete island. Shelley did not lie about how he got to the building. He came back in about 3 minutes after the last shot and was brave enough not to approve seeing Vicki Adams during his Warren Commission interview, in spite of being lured to say it. This sequence of events basically eliminates John Armstrong's escape theory, presented here by Jim, because Bill Shelley did not have time to go to the back of the building right after the shooting to pull the switch in the electrical box. My view also differs from those saying that Shelley and Lovelady are seen in Couch/Darnell because these two men were still in the doorway at that time. I have listed in this thread several points to explain the reasons for which Shelley and Lovelady could not be the two men in Couch/Darnell. Shelley's presence in the doorway is supported by 1) His testimony for the Warren Commission, 2) Buell Frazier interview (2009) in which he said that he has seen them leaving the steps after Gloria Calvery told them about the shooting when she had reached the lower steps, 3.) by the configuration of people in the centre of the doorway in Darnell. That cluster contains three people: Otis Williams in the front, Sarah Stanton in the shadow, and Bill Shelley between these two people. I have reconstructed this cluster and showed it multiple times on this Forum. Bill Shelley's affidavit does not say anything about staying on the top landing after the shooting for about a minute because the affidavit is very brief and does not contain any timing of Shelley's movements, only a sequence of events which matches his Warren Commission testimony. What the Warren Commission did was that they took the true course of movements of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady and combined them with Vicki Adams' s movements. The movements of both Shelley+Lovelady and Vicki+Sandra were correctly outlined in Warren Commission report, what was incorrect was merging them on the first floor at the time when Vicki reached the first floor. She did not see Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the first floor, and her testimony was changed by the Warren Commission to say she did.

Sandy: I am afraid you do not understand what I am saying. Vicki Adams spoke the truth, it was only the Warren Commission which misinterpreted her story and what she had witnessed. Please do not try to picture me as disputing Vicki Adams' true testimony. This I find to be a foul play by you to suggest I do not believe what Vicki Adams testified. My view also differs mightily from Jim Hargrove's version which I consistently oppose. What I also say is that Bill Shelley did not lie when he said he stayed after the shooting for a minute or so. He told so to the Warren Commission and he is also seen on the top landing in Darnell. It is your problem that Shelley's testimony and the visual evidence (Darnell) is not enough and that you still believe Shelley lied about staying on the top landing for a minute. My version of Shelley's whereabouts questions the front lift escape theory which suggests that Shelley was the confederate who needed to get to the back of the building and restore the power supply in the building. I am very disappointed with how you twist my views and would wish that you stop doing it.

I find it incomprehensible that someone would issue some very derogatory statements about the administrators of this forum on some other platforms. If an administrator is at low esteem in a member's eyes, that member should consider leaving the Forum. While differences in views among two members of the Forum can be heated at times, none of the members should go to a different forum and write derogatory evaluations about the other member there, administrator or not. Such rule protects this forum and it can be required from any EF member. I see no problem saying "We differ with XY in this and that point" on Facebook or some other forum, but I find it unacceptable to see statements portraying another member of this Forum as a coward, l_i_e_r, fraud, dishonest, incompetent, you name it. My comment does not strip anyone from the freedom of speech because it is possible to express differences of views without questioning the character or abilities of any of the forum's members. I should also add that an administrator does not need to be an expert in a particular aspect of the case, and administrators seldom take part in actual exchanges in threads. They are here to moderate, to check that we abide by the rules. Admins are arbiters in the matter of conduct on this forum.

My view is that posting the list of banned members, especially if it included cases several years old, would not be correct due to data protection issues. Being mentioned in such a list has some adverse connotations which potentially can affect banned members in their undertakings unrelated to the JFK case. That said, members of this forum should be able to ask the administrators whether a particular member was banned or not. As far as quoting a banned researcher's piece of work, this observes the standard arrangements for protecting intellectual property, and therefore, a banned member's work needs to be quoted properly by mentioning the source, date of retrieval and the name of the author. I have quoted Mr. Doyle's interview with Sarah Stanton's family members and the photograph he was sent by copying the link, saying when I retrieved it and stating the name of the person who posted. However, this should be automatic for any piece of work we quote.

Sandy: I do not think that Shelley had lied when he said he stayed where he was for a minute or so. It is not Shelley who some people think he is in Couch/Darnell. Shelley is seen on the top landing in Darnell at his Altgens-Wiegman spot, matching exactly what he had said to the Warren Commission. If you agree that the man in the western front part of the Doorway was Lovelady, I do not understand why Shelley could not stand where he was just 30 seconds after the last shot. As far as Shelley is concerned, he is right there at his spot, a piece of his black tie can also be seen. So, Shelley's testimony plus visual data are already some corroborating evidence. I find the DPD affidavit as too brief and inaccurate. I would assume lying by a witness only as the last resort and would first try to explain findings by checking statements by multiple witnesses. Neither Shelley nor Lovelady actually confirmed seeing Vicki Adams after they returned, so they did not lie and they did not help the Warren Commission a bit with their testimonies. The lie that occurred was when the Warren Commission wanted to discredit Adams's statements by saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady. The two gentlemen did not take part in this lie.

Thanks, John, this is very useful and elaborate. I can only add from my angle, from reconstructing the doorway scenes, that Z255 scene depicted in Altgens6 is quite different to what we see in Wiegman, confirming your conclusion that the time estimate provided by Daley Myers (Z257 = W015) is way off. At least few differences: 1. Carl Jones gazes toward Houston Street in Altgens6, and in a general front direction in Wiegman. 2. Mrs. Stanton moved from behind Lovelady (Altgens6) to the space in the shadow, behind Mr. Shelley in Wiegman. 3. Lovelady moved closer toward the central railing in Wiegman. 4. Mr. Molina moved more to the east in Wiegman compatred to Altgens6. (There seem to be more changes in Williams and Molina in Wiegman compared to Altgens6, however, I cannot recall the exact details at the moment.)

Jim: Bill Shelley is still on the top landing in Darnell, some 30 seconds after the last shot. He eventually went to call his wife but he first went out to the concrete island in front of the building. This is not only in the Warren Commission testimonies but it has been also witnessed by Buell Wesley Frazier (the part of Shelley and Lovelady leaving to the front of the building after hearing from Gloria Calvery). At the same time, the ceiling light is on in the vestibule just feet from the lift in the front part of the building - no power outage there. There is no time stamp for when he actually went into the building to call his wife, it is most likely that that happened after he and Lovelady came back via a side entrance, some 3 minutes after the last shot. Bill Shelley for the Warren Commission: Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.Mr. BALL - What did you hear?Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. Mr. BALL - And then?Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it. Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then? Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:? Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west. Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.Mr. BALL - Then what happened?Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

It is all about the detailed timing of Lee Oswald's movements which, unfortunately, is not known. Given the uncertainty of the exact moments of Lee Oswald's arrival into doorway and of duration of his stay there, multiple statements can be correct as none contains an exact time stamp. My analysis of Hughes, e.g., the frame often shown by David Josephs, tells me that Prayer Man was not at his spot when the Presidential limousine was just passing the depository building and before the shots rang out. So, yes, Lee did not watch the parade with other people, he was not in the doorway minutes before, he did not have chat with other employees. This is consistent with Inspector Kelley's report. Lee came, if he was Prayer Man, into doorway during the moments after President's limo passed and was certainly at his spot just after the last shot - this is documented in Wiegman. So, yes, he also saw the tail of the motorcade, the pandemonium, the commotion and the excitement. This fits with what he told during his very first interrogation and what Agent Hosty has recorded. As to the timing, I have calculated that Lee would need 12 seconds to walk briskly (not run) at 6 km/hour speed from the 1st floor lunchroom to the doorway (21 meters in my reading of the 1st floor plan) and thinking of Wiegman's first doorway frame W014 or W015 showing the doorway to coincide with Z313 + 1 second, we can estimate the likely time of his departure from the first floor lunchroom. I can be wrong, however, Lee may have reacted to the noise of the crowd which had augmented when the motorcade got to Houston Street. That would be the go signal making him leave the 1st floor lunchroom. He would be still in the building when the first shot rang out (thus, he was IN the building) on his way out, approaching the glass door, and he would reach his spot just a second before the last shot. It takes up to 3 seconds to squeeze through the semi-open glass door and get to Prayer Man's spot. Prayer Man was watching the cars passing the Depository in Wiegman but he was completely uninterested in events evolving around him in Darnell. His behaviour is very odd - all doorway occupants optimise their vantage points and view angles to see the most of the area around the Tripple Underpass. None of the doorway occupants behaved like Prayer Man. The spot at the western wall was the only spot which Lee could take if he entered the doorway late. Please mind that as he exited through the semi-open glass door, he could not go left because that route was blocked by Mrs. Sanders. He could not stay at the centre of the doorway, as there was the huge Mrs. Stanton and the tiny Mr. Shelley who occupied these premium posts. He could not stay just there slightly west of Mrs. Stanton and Mr. Shelley, because of Buell Wesley Frazier. He was standing close to the western pane of the glass door in the shadow, almost touching the door (his Wiegman location). Billy Lovelady at that point was at his Altgens6/early Wiegman location, on the second step, so Lee needed to move still further to the west and front of the top landing - to his Prayer Man location. At that spot, Lee would not obstruct the views of any of the people standing on the top landing. Late edit: Lee reacted to the noise of the crowd when he decided to go out, to see the commotion, the excitement, not to the shooting. I am inclined to believe that he did not anticipate any shooting to occur. However, the shooting which did occur had a very different meaning to him compared to other people in the doorway. Instead of going to the island or railroad tracks, or at least gazing to that general area, he watched in an indefinite way towards East Elm or Houston - he was thinking and pondering his next steps. The scenario may have been the one described in Chris Fulton's Inheritance: he was an intelligence asset and he was possibly informed about a mock assassination attempt which, however, he was told had been called off on the last minute (bad whether reason?). Therefore, he was not expecting anything to happen and quietly ate his lunch and went out to see the crowds when it looked like the motorcade is approaching. However, once he was out, he knew that the called-out action actually took place and was even hijacked to be a real assassination. He knew the people who had been preparing the mock attempt and who called it off, and this could be on his mind as he stood there staring to nowhere.

The two men can hardly be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady: 1. Bill Shelley was 2-4 inch shorter than Billy Lovelady. None of the GIF frames confirms this. 2. The alleged Lovelady had a different head posture compared to real Lovelady. Billy Lovelady had an orthopaedic problem called forward head posture causing the front plane of his head to be quite in front of his chest (a hunch). This problem is not seen in alleged Lovelady in Couch/Darnell. 3. These two men, alleged Shelley and Lovelady, do not know each other, they move independently. Please note that the alleged Lovelady came later than alleged Shelley who is moving kind of slow. "Lovelady" goes toward railroad tracks while "Shelley" seems to linger around the island. 4. Shelley stood on the top landing while Lovelady was already descending the steps in Wiegman. Yet, in Couch/Darnell, "Lovelady" is arriving after "Shelley" who was standing behind him on stairs and who had to pass several people. Shelley is still on the top landing in Darnell, so how can he be in front of the building? 5. Carl Jones stood on the second step and had an easy exit from the doorway. Yet, he arrives at the island in front of the building later than either "Shelley" or "Lovelady". In reality, Carl Jones should be the first to come.

Mr. Larry Rivera sounds like a very nice gentleman. Unfortunately, he has it all very wrong and he does not know about it. Mr. Rivera does not seem to be interested in knowing the truth and sticks to the ancient misinterpretation of Billy Lovelady as Lee Oswald. Mr. Rivera does not know the name of the cameraman who took Prayer Man, yet considers the Prayer Man case for lost because his "Doorman" rules. I spent time modelling Altgens6 and also modelling Billy Lovelady based on the FBI mug shot photographs. I then fitted the 5'8'' Billy Lovelady's figure into the doorway and it matched exactly the figure of who else - Lovelady. Here is my overlay of Altgens6 and the 3D model. This overlay is the essential sanity check - if there is a mismatch here, any subsequent fitting or height estimates may not be correct. And here is my model of Billy Lovelady: Finally, the doorway with Lovelady. In A: the reconstructed doorway with Lovelady modelled based on the FBI photographs. You can see that something is wrong here: Lovelady stands on the top landing, and that would yield his figure to be too high compared to how we see him in Altgens6. B. This view and this location of Mr. Lovelady is correct - he stood on the second step. Notably, he told the Warren Commission to have stood on the top landing. (This is the advantage of 3D modelling - one can experiment and test different alternative locations). C. Overlay of the model and Altgens6. D. A zoomed view of Lovelady and Mr. Shelley (the man in dark suit), and Carl Jones (the Afro-American man), Otis Williams (white long sleeve) and Joe Molina (short-sleeved shirt). Please note how the person standing behind Billy Lovelady perspires: her partial face can be seen in the space between Billy Lovelady's and Bill Shelley's head. Another small piece of the person standing behind Lovelady can be seen above his right shoulder. More to come soon when I finish fitting Mrs. Stanton as the person behind Mr. Lovelady. I hope this settles the question of "Doorman" once and forever. Not the "Prayer Man" people have it wrong, the "Doorman" people blew it badly.

David: the sketch you show is a part of the official WC plan of the first floor and it is very inaccurate. Please look at the depths of the six treads, how unequal they are. I started with this sketch four years ago when my project started and had to abandon it soon thereafter.

Gary Murr was kind enough to share the original measurements of the top landing taken by the FBI agents.

I used the value of 1 cm for the mortar in those initial estimates, slightly more than 1/4 and slightly less than 1/2.

Chris: I am not sure what do you want to say. You took my 2016 model which I then stopped using because I felt I could not make high-quality overlays. The reason was the absence of realistic dimensions of the doorway at that time. I was on a project for some 5 months and have estimated various dimensions solely based on photographs. For instance, the height of the doorway was estimated by counting the number of bricks on the western wall and multiplying this figure by the size of a standard US brick. The depth of the doorway was estimated to be 3'6'' but in reality, it was 3'9''. For this reason, the outer doorway in my 2016 model does not align perfectly, however, the inner part of the doorway seems to hold well. More importantly, the body height of Prayer Man has been estimated correctly with his head 5'2'' above the top landing and the connecting line touching the top of his head pointing to Frazier's chin. Prayer man's head is just a tiny bit above your blue 5' line, which is just fine. More importantly, the article defined the landmarks which any fitting of Prayer Man's figure needs to observe, such as his head crossing the aluminum frame, his right elbow at a certain distance from the red brick column (or "touching" the head of the man below) , etc. After completing this model, I stopped my work as I felt that some inaccuracies in alignments of my model and Darnell can only be resolved with modelling the doorway with realistic measures. The realistic model was available maybe about in summer 2017, and you can find some overlays of this model in my January 2018 article on thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com. However, even this model uses a slightly wrong depth of the doorway (3'8'') because the true dimension of the depth of top landing popped up only after publishing the article. You can see a revision comment in my January 31 article to this effect. I then embarked on reconstruction of Altgens6 and simultaneously worked on a realistic figure of Lee Oswald. Both projects are close to finishing, however, due to my job duties I cannot find a single day, not even a weekend, to be able to resume and finish - and one day would not suffice anyway.

David: I have constructed a 3D model of the doorway using realistic measures of the doorway. I then modelled the 3D model of Lee Harvey Oswald to show Prayer Man posture and fitted this figure into the doorway in the way that it matches Prayer Man figure. Then I read Prayer Man's figure height using a tape measure tool, and it showed the height of 5'9''. The posture of Prayer Man is tightly related to his location. I showed my data on many occasions starting April 2016 when I started to post, and lastly when I reconstructed the alternative solution testing the possibility of Jack Dougherty being Prayer Man. For the very early work, please see my article from April 19, 2016: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2016/04/19/prayer-man-in-darnells-film/ . This article defines the landmarks which any reconstruction of Prayer Man needs to observe. It is not my random decision where to put Prayer Man or how tall he could be. As far as my last estimate, please see the measuring stick crossing Lee Harvey Oswald's body as Prayer Man in my last work. There are at least 10 posts of mine in various threads addressing Prayer Man's body height. I explained to you specifically in one of my recent posts how can you get a rough estimate of Prayer Man's body height by comparing the top of his head with Mr. Frazier's head. However, I think this discussion is futile. It leads nowhere as whatever I write in response to you, it will be questioned by quite silly, sorry, comments. Do you really want to discuss Prayer Man's height or only provoke? Please show your calculations, estimates, measurements, whatever.

The weight cannot be elaborated from a picture, however, the gender can. It is simple: the distribution of body heights of US population in 1963 for people of a certain age is known. Prayer Man was 5'9'' and the probability is approaching zero for such a person being female.