Tony Krome

Update for this thread;

Miss Naomi Gabriel of Polk informed the FBI that the 1963 Irving Directory canvassing ran for the month of December 1962, and that the directory became available in April 1963. So that gives us a good idea about how they generally operate.

Ed Ledoux over at ROKC has found that the 1961 criss cross shows Robbie M Sharber living at 2511 West 5th. Information that I have is that Robbie M Sharber, by May 1962, had moved to Plano, and had a Plano phone number. When he moved I don't know, but it could have been as early as January 1961, and the 1961 directory would still have shown him at 2511.

The material I have showing BL3-8965 at 2511 West 5th is prior to December 1961. The 1962 criss cross is unfortunatly not available.

Interestingly, a researcher, I only know as Martha, found that Robbie M Sharber, was mentioned in the 1964 COLES directory as living at 2511 West 5th. So did he move back? Was he the owner of the property? Was he renting out 2511 in the intervening period?

****** update, Robbie M Sharber was still in PLANO as of JULY 1965, so the COLES directory info is in error ******

Ed Ledoux has Robert Cassel showing up at 2511 in the 1963 criss cross. We know that Alfred Randle purchased 2439 West 5th in November 1962, so if Cassel moved into 2511 in December 1962, he would show up in the 1963 criss cross.

To summarise the above, we don't know for sure who was occupying 2511 West 5th between January 1961 and November 1962. This is the time-frame which BL3-8965 exists at 2511.

The only time Oswald got close to Walker was in October 1963.

Charles Kllhr and his wife Virginia were friends of Walker. Charles was affiliated with a church over at Oak Cliff.

I'm not aware of any nefarious deeds by Charles, except so say that if the car was postively connected to him, it would have warranted a close look at people close to him in Irving. 

52 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

So Wes walked to the TSBD, with Lee with the package under his arm?  I thought Lee went ahead while he revved his engine to charge the battery.

No, Wesley got out of his car, and as soon as he shut the door, they both started walking towards the TSBD. It was during the walk that Wesley decided to take his time and the distance between them increased, but in the end, only by 50 feet.

57 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Wes never mentioned Lee taking the package out of the back seat when he walked ahead while Wes revved the engine to charge the battery that I remember reading of.

Wesley was directly asked what Oswald did with the package. His first response was to describe Oswald's jacket, then mentioned that he put the package up under his arm. Oswald then waited for Wesley behind the car near the fence. 

Wesley did not describe, in WC testimony, at that point, that Oswald opened up the rear door, or if he reached back for the package before exiting the car. If the package was 2 feet of lightweight curtain rods, I'd imagine he could have simply reached back with one hand and grabbed them.

1 minute ago, Tom Gram said:

Can you imagine hoards of police, FBI agents, Secret Service agents, and even Warren Commission personnel canvassing the neighborhood and going to and from the Paine home over the course of several months, seeing that house and thinking “Er, nobody actually lives there. It must be completely empty. We better just leave it alone”?

This was the investigation into the assassination of a sitting US President, not a stolen hamburger. The alleged assassin supposedly stored his rifle thirty f*****g feet away. The authorities could never find any ammo, rifle cleaning equipment, bag-making accessories, etc. etc. etc; but we’re supposed to believe that not one person ever thought to check a vacant f*****g house directly next door for evidence? No one else finds that just a little bit strange? 

Oh, I hear you alright. They left that house stand there untouched like it was filled with lepers.

Here's something more for you. The Paine address book has two notable entries. The neighbours to the west, the Roberts, was filled out completely, whereas the very next entry, the Randles, was totally blank where the address would be.

We all know what a fastidiuos keeper of records Ruth is, and the notebook shows the BL3-8965 Randle number. Neighbour Linnie knew of Ruth since 1959, and at least admits to meeting with Ruth about two years before March 1964, before she moved to 2439. So that would be early 1962. Let's just say that Ruth entered BL3-8965 in her notebook after that meeting, if she hadn't already done so years earlier. If she did, that can only mean that the Randles had the same phone number both at 2439 and before she moved.

The relevant material that I have uncovered has been passed on to a prominent researcher.

The material clearly shows that if you had of dialled BL3-8965 (the Randle number) in late 1961, the telephone at 2511 West 5th St in Irving, would have rung.

2511 West 5th (the so called "vacant" house in Nov 1963), was the house directly next door to the Paine house.

These are the facts we already know;

1. Linnie Mae Randle advised the FBI in March 1964, that she had known the Paines for about 5 years, which brings it back to 1959, the very same year that the Paines moved into 2515 West 5th St.

2. Linnie Mae Randle advised the Warren Commission in March 1964, that she used to live across the street from the Paines before moving to her then present address at 2439 West 5th St.

3. Alfred E. Randle (Linnie's father in law) purchased 2439 West 5th St in November 1962. Linnie and Bill made the repayments after moving in.

4. Back in 1960s, it was possible for a householder to transfer their telephone number to another location as long as it was within the same exchange, in this case BL3.

I'd be interested to see what fellow researchers here can contribute to this, cheers!

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

sleeping on his sister's couch?

At some point, there were 8 people sleeping in the Randle two bedroom house. Presumably the 2nd bedroom was occupied by Wesley's mother and step-dad (apart from his stay at the medical facility). The main bedroom, I guess, was occupied by both parents, and the 3 daughters were scattered about somehow.  So the couch makes sense, is that something you have heard Wesley mention? 

48 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Is it the person lowering their arm between the two women in red? Looks like a white, long sleeved arm.

 

Great Gif Chris, clearly shows someone clapping on the TSBD steps.

7 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

The shooting occurred as Benavides was approaching the patrol car. He heard the shots and hit the brakes about fifteen feet before reaching the spot. If he would have "mashed the gas pedal", he would have placed himself in the line of fire had the shooting continued. 

 

My question was; what do you estimate the time span was between the 1st & 2nd shots? 

14 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Would you drive through the scene of an ongoing shooting or would you do like Benavides did and stop a few feet before the scene?

 

Personally, I would duck down and mash the gas pedal. If someone was willing to shoot a cop, I wouldn't risk presenting myself as another target.

While I have your attention, and using Benavides' testimony, what do you estimate the time span was between the 1st & 2nd shots? 

On 4/30/2023 at 6:14 AM, Bill Brown said:

Benavides was 15 feet away when the shooting occurred.

 

Would you stop within 15 feet of an ongoing shooting?

100% the same guy in both photos.

The lighting source and the haircuts contribute to the perception of two different people.

The left photo has the light source coming in from top left, which "flattens" the chin and shadows the nose and one ear. The right photo has the eyes better illuminated by the camera flash.

I'm also seeing a difference in pupil size, which makes sense with the different light sources.

33 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Was Hughes a recent hire?

She'd been working for Southwestern for years

7 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I'm glad I brought up the topic of the girl on the phone and the locked door at the Southwestern Publishing office (in this other thread). Because it looks like I inadvertently provided some of the conspiracists here at the EF with yet another person that they can add to their "Suspicious Persons" file when it comes to their search for JFKA suspects and co-conspirators.

No need to thank me. I'm always glad to be of service. 

I gather you are don't consider the lady on the phone as suspicious.

Fair enough, you have the TSBD employee list, who is your candidate?

17 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

So, by deduction, there was girl in the Southwest Publishing office, the outlines of whom could be seen through a curtain, but her ID was unknown to Hine. Hone knew the girl in the Lyons and Carnahan office.

Unless someone can identify that lady, she may have been a stranger to Hine.

She makes a phone call right after the JFKA. What are we talking? 30 seconds, a minute?

Why lock the door if there was staff inside?

29 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn’t answer the door.

Hine could hear her voice. Hine could see her through the curtain.

Months later and Hine had no name to match this person?

4 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Robert MacNeil (of the MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour): "the president's driver slammed on the brakes."

Mrs. Earle Cabell: The motorcade "stopped dead still."

William Newman: "When I say 'stopped' I mean . . . like they hit the brakes."

At least 40 witnesses, from all over the plaza, said the limo either stopped or visibly slowed. Yet, in the Zapruder film the limo maintains a steady speed throughout the shooting.

Let me be a little clearer. "Screeching" is audible. I'm not questioning the limo stop.

"screeching of tyres" is what this Witt guy says

Calling on Witt believers to find any corroborating accounts

38 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

After LHO was working in downtown Dallas, and once the WH agreed to a motorcade, was when that particular specific opportunity presented itself.

What was the date that the WH agreed to a motorcade?

35 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Pat,

Do you agree with me that if Bonnie Ray Williams left the sixth floor of his own accord sometime after 12:00 noon without seeing anyone, then it was a remarkably lucky coincidence for the sixth-floor conspirators?

I don't put much stock in "lucky coincidence" in this case.

I don't believe the sixth-floor conspirators would have relied on waiting out Bonnie Ray Williams. They were there to play a role in the assassination, and they surely weren't going to mess around and hope that BRW would leave on his own. 

I think it is highly likely they confronted him and shooed him off the floor under some "security" pretext. And he wouldn't have realized the significance of their presence until later. 

 

 

Did you know that if there was no follow up interviews with the 3 boys, after their initial statements, you'd come away thinking Williams was with the other two the whole upstairs time.

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Never mind. You and I agree that Sawyer went up the passenger elevator.

But do we agree that Dougherty heard some kind of loud noise as soon as he arrived on the fifth floor, and that could not have been a gun shot?

Yes to Sawyer on the passenger elevator.

Dougherty says he heard one noise. The WC and Dougherty both believe he was on the 5th floor at the time of the assassination.

I involved myself in a discussion with Pat to explore the possibility that Dougherty heard the noise after the assassination.

At this point, I'm sure that Truly and Baker did not see Shelley and Lovelady by the freight elevators, and that Shelley was about right with his FBI estimation of 10 minutes.

Here is Lovelady entering the 1st floor;

Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman. 
Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. 
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. 
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. 

If Shelley and Lovelady entered the west entrance within a minute of the assassination, I don't see why Lovelady would go up to one of the guys and ask the time in relation to "continue working". It should have been obvious that it was circa 12:31, and that they were still on their lunchbreak. Plus why ask one of the guys if his boss is right there?

However, the 25 minutes Lovelady told HSCA that it took to enter the TSBD makes more sense, in that he would ask that question.

3 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Tony,

You make a good point, but we do agree that Baker was up on the roof of the TSBD with Truly, right?

If so, then I don't see how Baker could have been up there much before 12:35. After all, by the WC's own admission, the (supposed) Baker/"Oswald" confrontation could not have completed before 12:32. Baker and Truly still had to run up three more flights of stairs with a momentary pause on each one as Baker surveyed the immediate area, no matter how briefly. Baker and Truly still had to take the 5th floor elevator to the 7th floor and then ascend to the roof. They then had to surveil the roof, peek over and make a quick check for any possible hiding places, and then leave. 

Are you saying that was completed before 12:36?

How much less time? 12:35, maybe?

And if it took more time, then how on his way back down could Baker have run into Sawyer on the 4th floor in time for Sawyer to get back down to his cruiser by 12:40 or so?

I still think that Pat Speer's hypothesis is very possible - that the loud noise heard by Dougherty ("backfire") was not a rifle shot but was actually a noise made by Baker and Truly on the roof. 

Previously in this thread, I mentioned circa 12:38 for the Baker/Sawyer meeting. The time would relatively be an even split between Sawyer exiting his car and re-entering his car.

Pat has Shelley calling to Dougherty to guard the passenger elevator at the point where Sawyer confronts the mystery man. (who Pat believes is Shelley)

So Shelley calls out at circa 12:35 as Dougherty is walking to the west elevator.

Major problem here is how on earth could Dougherty believe everything was so normal on the 1st floor, 5 minutes after the assassination, that he intended to start picking orders?

That aside, effectively, in Pat's hypothesis, both Shelley/Sawyer and Dougherty would be riding their respective elevators upwards at the same time. Dougherty to the 6th, Shelley/Sawyer to the 4th.

The above destroys Shelley's affidavit by the way. Dougherty was not "left to guard the elevator"

So by the time Dougherty reaches the 6th, Sawyer is moving across the 4th floor, noting the ladies, the open space etc.

Dougherty begins to pick orders on the 6th. If we have the Shelley call out at 12:35, we must be reaching 12:37 by the time Dougherty takes the ride up 6 floors, and actually completes picking orders on the 6th.

Then Dougherty re-enters the elevator and descends to the 5th to again pick orders, at a time where it must be close to the time where Baker meets Sawyer on the 4th at circa 12:38.

To subscribe to this hypothesis, not only is Shelley's affidavit incorrect, but also what he told the FBI. The hypothesis demands that Shelley's estimation of 10 minutes to enter the west entrance was out by more than 10 times.

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Paul

I agree that Lovelady was not a witting conspirator. Not only was he naive, gullible and used by Shelley ... so apparently was Oswald.

In following this thread, and digging into the 2nd floor encounter, it really opened up a lot for me.  It shines an unfavorable light upon both Roy Truly and Bill Shelley (neither of whom I knew much about).  For one, Truly wasn't just a manager; he was a member of the Board of Directors of the TSBD and had been part of this organization for a long time (so he had to know what was going on behind the scenes).  Roy Truly took the infamous call from Ruth Paine to hire Oswald, and later lied about the fictitious 2nd floor encounter ... a story that Officer Marion Baker was unable to keep straight.  Shelley also changed his story several times about where he was after the shooting ... but he appears to have killed the building power temporarily, 'guarded' the elevator, got Oswald out of the building and then flagged him as missing to Truly, and finally identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the DPD station.   

I encourage you to read William Weston's April 2020 article in Kennedys and King about the strange goings on at the TSBD. He references a Jerry Rose article, “Important to Hold that Man” that challenges Oswald being singled out, since there were at least 14 people missing from the building at the time (and they would not return until 1:30 pm). And Weston chases down the so-called Glaze letters, written by a Lubbock journalist (Elzie Dean Glaze) who interviewed Shelley, where he allegedly claimed to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA. 

Not only was Lovelady harassed, so apparently was Roy Truly, who according to Jim Marrs (in Crossfire) was, up to the time of his death in 1985, continuously frightened by "federal authorities." Truly's wife Mildred refused to talk about the assassination even with members of her own family. 

Gene

Don't forget Truly and Shelley were handling rifles on the Wednesday. And where was Oswald at the time? He was right there, so close he could hear their conversation.

Oswald reported this to police on Friday. I'm sure even DVP would give Oswald some credit for that.

So if one suspects Truly and Shelley, what was the intention of the Wednesday gathering at the will-call counter?

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

a loud "bang" at 12:36/37 seems plausible to me. 

You can work Sawyer backwards through the timeline. He's back in his car on the radio at circa 12:40. Before that he was discussing security with police near the front doors. Before that he rode the passenger elevator down from the 4th floor. And finally before that, he was chatting with Baker in the North/West 4th floor corner of the TSBD.