Tony Krome

2 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Sawyer rushes in, and says he wants to go upstairs. Shelley takes him upstairs on the front elevator. But he glances down the hall and sees Dougherty coming out of the Domino room or bathroom or something. So he yells at him to come down and guard the elevator. But Dougherty doesn't understand and just goes back to work, using the west elevator. 

It was established that Sawyer exited his car circa 12:34, so we are looking at possibly 12:35 when Sawyer finds himself by the passenger elevator with the mystery man.

You have Dougherty moving from the bathroom to the west elevator at the point where Shelley yells out to him to come on over and guard the passenger elevator.

That would be a 100ft shout out to Dougherty through all sorts of obstacles on the 1st floor. 

In any event, you now have Dougherty ignoring Shelley, to enter the west elevator at circa 12:35. He then has to make the 30 second trip up to the 6th where he begins to pick orders. At the shortest possible time, we must closing in on 12:37

He then has to re-enter the elevator and take it down to the 5th, where he begins picking orders. We are now at the time where Baker is talking to Sawyer on the 4th floor, one floor below Dougherty.

I can't see how the noise Dougherty heard was generated by Baker/Truly above him.

4 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Shelley lied to Dougherty. 

On a Saturday?

8 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Perhaps then he didn't understand what Shelley told him and just went back to work.

Shelley stated that he was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. He then stated he accompanied police up the elevator, and implies that because of that, he leaves Dougherty in charge of the elevator. (you are saying passenger elevator)

Are you now saying that Shelley issued instructions to Dougherty at the freight elevator area, before Shelley moved to the passenger elevator?

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes. The FBI (Burnett) did precisely that.

From a 2007 discussion:

"By the time that document was written (09/23/64), it was surely common knowledge at the Dallas FBI offices that Lee Oswald was carrying a Coke bottle in the TSBD at some point just after President Kennedy's assassination. Perhaps Burnett, like other people who I think have done the same bit of incorrect "merging", thought that Baker did see LHO with a Coke, and wrote it down as such (and he got the floor number wrong too remember...strange, indeed, if Baker was sitting right there beside him...and stranger still is the question of WHY Baker couldn't pick up a pen and write the whole damn thing himself if he was right there)." -- DVP; May 5, 2007

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"Hi David, Good point. If Baker was there, why didn't *he* write out the statement? Without a doubt, the document is in the FBI agent's handwriting. .... The agent imo included the Coke not because Baker said it, but because it was "established myth" by 9/64 and the agent included it as part of the narrative. He probably didn't give it a second thought and neither did Baker when he crossed it out. It wasn't important to them. I'm speculating, sure. But is it more plausible that the coverup crew wanted to hide the Coke story and yet left this document in the record?" -- Jean Davison; January 10, 2010

"incorrect merging" Noted!

9 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But there was most definitely a "third party" involved in that 9/23 statement. The 3rd party was FBI agent Richard J. Burnett, who most certainly wrote the words we see in that document....

The FBI hand writes something that didn't happen. Thanks for that.

26 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

OK. The assumption was that if any shots were fired from the TSBD they were fired from the front of the building. Truly thought the freight elevators were locked in place. So he told Shelley to go guard the front elevator. It makes perfect sense. 

And Dougherty? How is he left guarding the passenger elevator by Shelley if he's on the 5th floor?

50 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Truly said he thought the shots came from the railroad yards. He thought the elevators at the back of the building were locked up on the fifth, and told Shelley to go make sure no one suspicious came out the elevator at the front of the building from where he would have to have assumed the shots were fired, if indeed they were fired from the building.

Truly knew Baker wanted to get to the roof. In fact Baker thought the roof may have been a gun platform, until he arrived;

Mr. BAKER - I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it.

Your scenario has exposed Truly as the person that was responsible for moving Shelley away from an area where he could have seen the culprit emerge from the elevator.

Another problem is that you say Shelley went with Sawyer up the passenger elevator (circa 12:34) Shelley said he then left Dougherty in charge of the elevator. How can Dougherty be in two places at once? You have Truly seeing him at circa 12:37 on the 5th floor in the north-west corner of the TSBD. Sawyer would shortly be meeting Baker by the 4th floor freight elevator circa 12:38, supposedly with Shelley in tow.

On 10/20/2022 at 3:24 PM, Pat Speer said:

Truly then looks around and sees Shelley and tells him to watch the front elevator. He sees Piper and tells him to watch the back door. Truly and Baker then run up the stairs.

The scenario you have described here is Truly being aware that that Baker suspects a gunman at the top of the building, that he's aware of both elevators hanging high, and that they have to take to the stairs.

It follows that there would be a concern that if any of those elevators happened to descend while they were climbing the stairs, it may contain the culprit.

You have suggested this exact situation in that Truly orders Shelley to stand by the elevators, and not to let anyone out.

But you say that Truly sends Shelley to the passenger elevator, and Piper to the rear door. This action effectively leaves the freight elevators unsupervised.

And where is Baker in all this? Is he standing there mute as Truly issues orders that are supposedly made to corner the gunman? Orders that leave the freight elevators wide open on the 1st floor, for your mystery person to emerge from, to avoid Piper by turning to the west entrance.

Your scenario has the appearance of Truly ensuring an unwitnessed escape.

On 10/20/2022 at 1:40 PM, Pat Speer said:

Let's say Adams saw Shelley by the phone a minute and 10 after the shooting. Baker and Truly headed over a few seconds later. Truly yelled out to Shelley to guard the front elevator and yelled out to Piper to guard the back door. 

For the timeline, that would be 12:31:10 for Shelley to be by the phone.

If the following WC testimony is correct, Adams is talking to Shelley, so I doubt Shelley is talking to someone on the phone at the time;

Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what they said? 
Miss ADAMS - Nothing.

If you have Shelley by the phone, one minute and 10 seconds after the shooting, its likely he hasn't yet dialled his wife, waited for her to answer, explained what had happened, taken the mandatory questions from the wife, and then hang up. There is simply no time for that to have occurred, because for Shelley to leave the front steps at 12:30:30, that gives him only 40 seconds to walk to the railway tracks, enter the west entrance, and arrive by the phone.

Shelley told the FBI that he entered the west entrance about 10 minutes following the shooting. According to you, Shelley entered the west entrance in less than 1 minute.

2 minutes ago, John Deignan said:

A question back on topic-once Truly showed Baker where the stairs were, why did Truly go up the stairs ahead of Baker? Baker has his gun drawn going up the stairs expecting to possibly run into the shooter. Was he going to shoot through Truly?

Yes, if Baker expected to run into a gun-toting escapee descending the building, its certainly perilous for the unarmed civilian ahead of him in such a tight staircase. If they met on the stairs, I don't see how Truly could avoid crossfire.

10 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

The first floor or at all?  

Curry: As an officer rushed into the building, Oswald rushed out. The policeman permitted him to pass after the building manager told the policeman that Oswald was an employee. He apparently lost himself in the crowd then.

Campbell: Truly and an officer ran into the building. In a storage room on the first floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald. "Does this man work here?" the officer reportedly asked Truly. Truly reportedly told the policeman that Oswald was a worker.

Sounds like the same story to me.

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Oswald said he spoke to Shelley as he exited the building.

What time do you have Oswald exiting the front door? I think the WC had the exit as 12:33 to make the bus/taxi thing work.

54 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Incredibly, Ball/Belin asked Shelley if he saw Baker and Truly run into the building but never asked if he saw them in the building.

Is this what you refer to;

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

I'm not clear on how Truly issues instructions to Shelley between the TSBD entrance and the rear stairs if Shelley is on the island.

33 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

There was obviously some confusion. Sawyer thought he went to the top floor. But it was the fourth floor. 

Now, it could be that he wanted to go to the sixth floor but was deliberately taken to the fourth floor by Shelley. That can't be ruled out. 

Theories can only work within timelines. So for practical purposes, lets say the last shot was fired at 12:30:00

Baker and Truly are seen near the TSBD front steps at 12:30:30

What time and where do you have Truly ordering Shelley to 1st floor passenger elevator?

8 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

It was Shelley alright.

"The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about."

So you are saying that Sawyer asked to go to the 4th floor, and Shelley pointed out to Sawyer that the passenger elevator would take him to that floor?

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

That's not what he said.

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. 
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. 
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? 
Mr. SAWYER. That's right. 
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door? 
Mr. SAWYER. Right. 
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? 
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. 
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door? 
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right. 

Notice how Belin avoids the question of who this man was like the plague. While Sawyer went upstairs with a man whom he believed worked in the building (almost certainly William Shelley) Belin refused to nail this down, because Shelley's presence at the front of the building at roughly 12:34 (after running around the outside of the building, and after calling his wife) supported Vickie Adams' recollection of seeing him at the back of the building within a minute or so of the shots. 

But notice as well that when Sawyer says "We run into this man" it's unclear what man he is talking about. I'd assumed he was backtracking a bit and referring to Shelley. But he could very well be saying someone came down in the elevator. If so, that is mighty curious. All of the men on the upper floors were accounted for, save Steven Wilson, who said nothing about coming down to the ground floor after the shooting. 

Shelley? Doubt it. 

Back to the other subject. You have the person who emerged from the west elevator on the 1st floor as avoiding Piper and exiting the west entrance. You also have this same person entering the west elevator on the 5th floor. You are suggesting this person had something do with the 6th floor at the time of the assassination. Is this your escape scenario?

7 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Yeah, I have long suspected that the WC failure to question Inspector Sawyer about the man exiting the passenger elevator as he, Sawyer, rushed in was a deliberate failure to pursue a lead. 

Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man ....... a man who I believed worked in the building.

This is right around 12:34

A minute before that, the mystery man could have been by the 4th floor elevator/ stairs

You'd think Belin would have been interested in a description of that man, that a police officer "ran" into, especially in those crucial minutes.

47 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Whatever the origin of the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter story, there is no doubt in my mind that Baker did indeed confront a suspect near the stairs inside the TSBD on about the "3rd or 4th floor."

More focus should be on whether Rowland's man could be Baker's man. A straight shot from the 4th floor stairs/elevator area is the 4th floor passenger elevator. Then we have Sawyer's mystery man nearby the passenger elevator on the 1st floor.

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Yes, that is pretty much it.

Always willing to examine alternate scenarios, so here we go;

The Baker/Sawyer meeting happened at approx 12:38. This was at the 4th floor freight elevator as Baker was descending.

The loud noise you have Dougherty hearing from the 5th floor had to be within minutes beforehand. Lets say 12:36/7

Dougherty has to enter the elevator on the 6th floor before descending to the 5th. Lets say 12:35/6

Dougherty was picking orders on the 6th after ascending from the 1st floor. Here we are getting very close to the time of the assassination, in fact Dougherty would have to enter the elevator almost immediately after it descended (controlled by a person you have not identified) from the 5th floor. 

1. How does Piper not see this mystery person emerge from the elevator within a minute after seeing Truly?

2. How does Dougherty miss all the commotion on the 1st floor as he walked from the bathroom to the elevator?

3. Piper does not see Dougherty or discuss the shots with him as he walked to the elevator?

4, Why did Dougherty return to work at approx 12:32?

5. Indications are that Oswald was in the Domino room at approx 12:23/5. Oswald and Dougherty make no mention of each other, so was Dougherty in the bathroom for up to 15 minutes?

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

He was told there were shots. He subsequently said "Well, that loud sound I heard must have been a shot." But he only heard one and the loud sound he heard came from directly above him over by the elevators, and not from the open windows directly below the assassination window. It follows then that he heard something other than a shot. He was also consistent in that he returned to work five minutes or so after the shots were fired. And well, hell, if one assumes he was correct then it seems likely the loud sound he heard had something to do with Baker and Truly coming down from the roof. 

And, by golly, Truly said he saw Dougherty on the fifth floor as he came down in the elevator. That Dougherty returned to work AFTER the shooting thereby becomes the only logical conclusion...one which the WC staff avoided like the plague. 

So you have Dougherty hearing no shots, and you have him returning to work after the assassination. In other words, everything was like a regular lunch break, and a regular return to work after the lunch break.

Since he did not hear any shots, did not see Truly and Baker rush across the first floor, and did not hear Truly yelling out twice for the elevator, you have him in the bathroom.

You then have Dougherty taking the west elevator up to the 6th floor for his return to work, then take the elevator back down to the 5th where he heard a loud noise. You are suggesting this noise was made by Truly/Baker above him. On the 5th is where he is seen by Truly as he comes down from the roof.

Do I have this correct?

18 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I don't know. He said he ate lunch in the Domino room. But he may have been in the bath room when the actual shots were fired. In any event, he was almost certainly somewhere near the back of the building seeing as he didn't hear any shots. 

In his hand-written affidavit, he states he did he hear a shot, then after that, he went downstairs. He writes that he was "working on the sixth floor today" which means he filled out his affidavit on that Friday.

1. Can you explain why you believe this affidavit is false?

2. If Dougherty was not on the 5th/6th floor in the minutes either side of the assassination, and did not hear any shots, why then was he bought before the WC?

25 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Dougherty was downstairs at the time.

Exactly where do you have Dougherty at the time of the shooting?

9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

And if LHO wasn't the sixth-floor sniper, then the question needs to be asked --- How, then, did the real 6th-floor assassin(s) manage to avoid being seen by Garner, et al, in the minutes following JFK's murder?

An appropriate question.

A fleeing 6th floor person had to firstly avoid Dougherty who admitted he was in the north/west corner of the 5th floor at the time. In fact he stated he was 10 feet from the west elevator.

Dougherty takes the west elevator down as Truly/Baker ascends the stairs, so Dougherty was at the 5th floor elevator/stairs area for minutes after the assassination.

No point in debating anyone, Garner saw Truly/Baker after the girls had descended the stairs. The thing that interests me is what was Baker doing when she saw him? Was he moving from staircase to staircase, or was he confronting someone?

33 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I believe that Paine was instructed to tell Oswald about the job; that Truly was instructed to offer the job to Oswald; that and Oswald was instructed to take the job.

The phone call, therefore, was just theatre. The call happened, for the record. 

But you have to go further back, even before the "morning coffee meeting". Without the newly employed Frazier at the TSBD, your "assets" would have no avenue for TSBD employment.

So how did they get Frazier employed?