Towner vs. Zapruder

[Chris Davidson]

Bill,

No need to compare 2 Dorman frames.

I'd much rather compare one to a frame I know is valid, from my camera.

Here's another Dorman frame compared to mine.

Sprocket holes aligned, problem with the heighth in Dorman.

Why aren't the partial adjacent frames along with the main frame shown in Dorman?

They show the sprocket holes, just as mine does along with the adjacent frames.

What are they hiding?

In case you missed that extra sprocket hole in the previous animation it's in the last frame of this one, between the top red lines.

Interesting how it's close to the same heighth.

chris

[Bill Miller]

Why aren't the partial adjacent frames along with the main frame shown in Dorman?

They show the sprocket holes, just as mine does along with the adjacent frames.

What are they hiding?

chris

Chris ... have you bothered to check with anyone that might know something about Doorman's film and the ways it has been presented in the various documentaries to see if anything has been hidden???

Bill

[Chris Davidson]

The original question has NOT been answered.

The Towner camera shoots at 16 FPS, NOT 24.

The literature/documentation wouldn't state it shoots at 16FPS, if 24 was the correct rate.

It doesn't matter what it plays like, that's subjective. It doesn't matter if you've run it through a million projectors.

It doesn't matter what transfer methods have been used.

The ORIGINAL camera shoots at 16 FPS.

Why not run a valid test with it.

We know what the outcome would be.

chris

This is not rocket science. I have seen this type of thing come up in nature films. For instance, film a horse walking at 16 fps and then at 24 fps and see which one is natural. Mack has said, 'Camera speeds varied by 5% or more from beginning to end and each film scene speed depends on several variables. Our transfer of the entire Towner reel was made at 20 fps, which is more than 10% faster than normal (which was almost certainly 18fps). The transfer probably shows the limo moving too fast. That, of course, is not a significant visual problem but it would wreak havoc with anyone using the video transfer to establish the camera's true speed.'

I also know what Gary has said to you. So like I said ... you should post it so everything is on the table.

Bill

According to mfgr specs, no 8mm cameras run at 18 fps. They run at 16 fps, because that is the

PROJECTOR RATE. Camera rate must coordinate with projector rate. That is why there is an

American Standards Association.

Jack

Thanks Jack,

I'm not sure they understand the theory of standards.

chris

And then, there are also those who in addition to not being able to read and understand witness statements (Altgens), as well as do comparative analaysis of photographic evidence (Altgens/CE900/WC Re-enactment photo), also can not grasp and understand the basic principle of mathmatical computation.

It just so happens that MATH is accepted by the courts.

All that one has to do is provide sufficient evidence to prove that the computations are correct.

The WC Re-enactmey was COMPLETELY PHONY!

Their own evidence proves it.

The "Warren Report" special which aired back in 1967 tested (5 DIFFERENT) B/H 414PD's.

Their results had those cameras running from between 15.3 - 20.7 FPS.

So, besides Towner's camera, the Z camera is unable to obtain a speed of 24 FPS.

A brief clip from that program. If you want to see how they tested it, email and I will link you to that part.

Also, from Myer's PDF, the FBI results for the Z camera.

chris

[Chris Davidson]

Can you tell how far into the intersection the limo starts it's turn onto Elm St from the Hughes film?

I sure can't.

What if I gave you a similar view as Hughes and pointed out cops in this same intersection. Would it help?

Or, if I showed you a movie clip of those same cops with a car passing by.

What if I needed to bury approx 30 Ft in distance traveled or approx 3 seconds of filming. Towner 160 frames@16 FPS or Myer's 160 frames@24FPS.

What this be an opportunistic place to do it?

Why DON'T ANY of the assassination films show the limo REACHING the Houston St. crosswalk and then continue into the Elm St turn?

Hughes, Bell, Muchmore, Towner, Nix, Dorman. Take a look at all the films. Stops or Breaks

Tom has pointed out the WC exhibit which has Altgen's incorrectly positioned farther east, closer to the Elm/Houston St. corner than he appears in the Z film.

All just another COINCIDENCE!!!!

chris

[Jack White]

Chris...does this have anything to do with the WIDE TURN reported by many witnesses?

Jack

[Chris Davidson]

Jack,

Not sure how wide of a turn you are referring to.

But compared to Myer's path(yellow arrows), and using the SS plotting of JFK(red lines for LOS) and West/Drommer plats, I come up with a 30 Ft difference in that portion of the turn, approx.

This is with Towner's LOS the corner of the TSBD.

This has to do with the manipulation of time/distance in the overall scheme of the WC.

30Ft. is also the distance between 4+65 and 4+95.

chris

P.S.

Thanks Tom!!!

[Chris Davidson]

Chris...does this have anything to do with the WIDE TURN reported by many witnesses?

Jack

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. 
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? 
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. 
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway? 
Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.

I'm still trying to find this occurance in the Towner film. The one that films at 24FPS.

I guess he was in a state of shock BEFORE any of the shots rang out.

How could he be so contradictory in his precise description of the limo's turn onto Elm St.

chris

[Jack White]

Chris...does this have anything to do with the WIDE TURN reported by many witnesses?

Jack

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. 
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? 
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. 
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway? 
Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.

I'm still trying to find this occurance in the Towner film. The one that films at 24FPS.

I guess he was in a state of shock BEFORE any of the shots rang out.

How could he be so contradictory in his precise description of the limo's turn onto Elm St.

chris

Truly and several others mentioned the wide turn.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. 
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? 
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. 
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway? 
Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.

I'm still trying to find this occurance in the Towner film. The one that films at 24FPS.

I guess he was in a state of shock BEFORE any of the shots rang out.

How could he be so contradictory in his precise description of the limo's turn onto Elm St.

chris

I want to first mention that the difference in the frame from your camera and the one you used from an assassination film was due to the assassination film for that show was given borders put around it for a softening effect, thus while the sprockets holes matched ... the outside dimensions would not between the two you used. I discovered this through talking with Gary Mack and if it has already been posted ... sorry for repeating it again.

Roy Truly did say that the Limo turned wide ... however, his being able to tell that it got within an inch from the curb was a mere interpretation on his part ... and a bad one at that! The Limo was a Lincoln and one might expect it to make a wide turn considering that the turn onto Elm Street exceeded 90 degrees. I believe that the full frame Doorman film shows that the car turned right into the center lane, which proves that Truly's interpretation was in error IMO.

If I had to make an educated guess from my own personal experiences in life when looking at things from being slightly elevated or from having people standing between me and the object I am looking at ... any of these two things could have only made it appear that the limo turned further than what it did. One example of this is the idea that some people have thought when viewing the Zapruder film that one of the cycles flanking the passenger side of the limo had continued on down Houston Street and didn't turn at Elm. Then all of a sudden we see that cycle coming along the north lane from under the overhanging tree branches seen on Zapruder's film. That cycle appears to be riding within inches against the crowd standing along the north side of the street, when in reality it is not. Through 'angle and interpretation' is what I believe caused Truly to think the limo about hit the north curb when it made its turn onto Elm Street.

Bill Miller

Edited July 6, 2008 by Bill Miller