Does the limo slow down?

[Craig Lamson]

Craig:

Unless you are off in Siberia, you should know that I am an agnostic on this issue.

Chris, unlike Rigby, is a more level headed guy on it. I think what he is trying to do is sync up the films in time frame by frame, and then show that something happens in one film at a different time than in another film. Even Logan, who is anti-alterationist, agrees that this is a sound approach.

I am waiting for him to come up with something in that regard.

I think its a novel and interesting approach.

You need to read the stuff on Duncans forum. Chris has plenty there.

[François Carlier]

Actually, the car didn't only SLOW down. It didn't only STOP either.

Actually, Bill Greer PARKED the limousine and lighted a cigarette.

Unfortunately, we can't see it BECAUSE THE FILM WAS ALTERED.

Too bad !

/F.C./

Edited August 5, 2010 by François Carlier

[Dean Hagerman]

Actually, the car didn't only SLOWED down. It didn't only STOP either.

Actually, Bill Greer PARKED the limousine and lighted a cigarette.

Unfortunately, we can't see it BECAUSE THE FILM WAS ALTERED.

Too bad !

/F.C./

Not funny

[Paul Rigby]

Is this some kind of joke?

Good question. Shall we explore further? Let's.

One or two newspapers failed to mention the name of the person who shot the movie, and some other paper showed frames from the Muchmore film but mistakenly said they were from the Zapruder film??

A promising start, it has to be said: a non-summary summary. But now our resident stand-up gets into full comedic stride. From circular logic...

Where in hell do you think they got those Muchmore frames?? You just proved that the film was on the air by the 26th, otherwise they would never have had them.

...to, er, no logic:

And why do you cite Muchmore telling the FBI that she had no "photographs" of the shooting?? Of course she didn't take photographs. She filmed the assassination.

Brilliant.

And now for the punchline:

And you have to remember that "gruesome" is a relative term. To people who hadn't yet seen the Zapruder film and were still in shock and mourning, seeing blood being blown out from the President's head was undoubtedly more gruesome than they could handle.

You've forgotten something here, Bob, and it's kind of important: The film described as "gruesome" is meant to be the Muchmore film, not the Zapruder, remember? So explaining why late November 1963 TV viewers were shocked by seeing the Zapruder film is, from your anti-alterationist perspective, just not very bright.

Now that is funny.

Is this a sample of the kind of logic you guys use to promote alterationism?

Yes; and right over your head it sailed, too.

Never mind, keep trying!

[Paul Rigby]

Isn't that what Bob is saying?

That people had not seen the Z film yet?

That is why he called it "relative".

No, it isn't. But it should have been. Hence the laughter.

Perhaps you could help him out, Jim, by vetting his posts on the subject? That way he could get to say what you think he should, instead of mangling things hopelessly.

[Paul Rigby]

Actually, the car didn't only SLOW down. It didn't only STOP either.

Actually, Bill Greer PARKED the limousine and lighted a cigarette.

What do you reckon, Francois, Lucky Strike or Virginia Slim? Given the range, it would have to be the latter, surely?

[Paul Rigby]

I am not Bob...

At last, a point of substance.

And the Muchmore film isn't a gorefest.

”A motion picture taken of the President just before, during, and after the shooting, and demonstrated on television showed that the President was looking directly ahead when the first shot, which entered his throat, was fired. A series of still pictures taken from the motion picture and published in Life magazine on Nov. 29 show show exactly the same situation.”

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/The_critics/Lane/Natl-Guardian/Natl_Guardian.html

Of course, what was shown on WNEW-TV in the first hour of Tuesday, 26 November had to be withdrawn and history rewritten. But, happily, we've caught back up with them and now know what they did.

Enter stage right, the PNAC...

[David Josephs]

I agree with Jim that Chris' methodology of syncing all the films to search for anomolies is sound.

Question for Chris though... with different/variable film rates what might be seen in one might NOT be seen in another just due to physics, right? I realize we'd be looking for Muchmore significant changes (lol). But only if frames were removed, not if they were simply painted over.

and given the Nix and Muchmore films were much less likely to have been altered than Zapruder, a complete stop of the limo, is imo not realistic. I seem to remember reading though that Greer was picked exactly BECAUSE he had a tendency to hit the brakes when presented with an unexpected stimulus... soryy I can't cite it, maybe someone else can.

There is no way Zapruder was shown to the public that weekend. and if you look at Muchmore's first part (my Muchmore is a part 1 and 2) it does indeed end as the limo is about to turn onto elm and there is indeed some footage in Muchmore of the limo on Elm before the shot.

Yes, the limo slows down.

Hey Craig!

Must you always be so pissed at the entire world that everything you write has to be so caustic?

Can't imagine ANYONE taking anything you say seriously or you ever getting into a normal discussion with members of this forum...

Your rights, my rights, on this forum not withstanding.... how about a little people-skills training... you remove the enjoyment of open discussion with attack after attack and nothing to contribute... Must you chime in on every thread with your "I haven't had any in 30 years" attitude? Even Oscar Myer packages their baloney to look appealing.

Great job dude

[Paul Rigby]

And the Muchmore film isn't a gorefest.

Bob used the word "relative" to qualify his point. You ignore that.

And if I listed the anti-alterationist absurdities you ignore I'd be here all night.

Be that as it may, let's consider the question of "relative" to what.

First, and most obviously, the Muchmore film could not conceivably have been considered "gruesome" even had it been shown in 1963, complete with added footage of the assassination untaken by Muchmore.

The first version of the Z film could.

Second, what was this age of innocence?

One in which footage of a firing squad and its victims was shown (live?) by CBS TV; and the assassination-by-stabbing of a Japanese cabinet member broadcast. Very innocent.

One of the many troubles with the anti-alterationist cause is that it is fundamentally anti-historical. It reads history backwards; and with CIA spectacles. Fortunately, Angleton had at least one thing right: The past, if we allow it, can telescope into the future.

[Chris Davidson]

and given the Nix and Muchmore films were much less likely to have been altered than Zapruder, a complete stop of the limo, is imo not realistic. I seem to remember reading though that Greer was picked exactly BECAUSE he had a tendency to hit the brakes when presented with an unexpected stimulus... soryy I can't cite it, maybe someone else can.

David,

The question about the blood amount (Duncan's thread) coming from JFK's throat is directed at Greer/Kellerman's reactions.

Both of them look back toward JFK long before 313.

Did neither see it because of JFK's arms.?

Would there be blood on JFK's hands, reaching for his throat?

The limo slows down.

Greer looks back a second time before 313, does he still not see any blood?

chris

[Craig Lamson]

Hey Craig!

Must you always be so pissed at the entire world that everything you write has to be so caustic?

Can't imagine ANYONE taking anything you say seriously or you ever getting into a normal discussion with members of this forum...

Your rights, my rights, on this forum not withstanding.... how about a little people-skills training... you remove the enjoyment of open discussion with attack after attack and nothing to contribute... Must you chime in on every thread with your "I haven't had any in 30 years" attitude? Even Oscar Myer packages their baloney to look appealing.

Great job dude

Hey Josephs..STFU....

Don't like what I write...DON'T READ IT! Simple enough, even for you.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Craig Lamson

[Craig Lamson]

Craig is such a charmer isn' t he?

The Don Rickles of Spartacus.

After a few years of dealing directly with CT morons, what exactly do you expect? Lightness and love?

I've been called every name in the book...its coming right back at ya.

BTW jimmy, you should buy a mirror.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Craig Lamson

[Robert Harris]

Isn't that what Bob is saying?

That people had not seen the Z film yet?

That is why he called it "relative".

No, it isn't. But it should have been. Hence the laughter.

Perhaps you could help him out, Jim, by vetting his posts on the subject? That way he could get to say what you think he should, instead of mangling things hopelessly.

Paul, what I actually said, seems to settle the issues here, since you did not even attempt to dispute anything I said, other than the "gruesome" part.

We have all seen the Zapruder film a zillion times and have forgotten how it affected us the first time we saw it. But I cannot think of an image I have seen on television or in the newspapers throughout my entire life, that is more "gruesome" than the frames following 312.

But on 11/26/63, only a handful of people had seen it and the WC deemed it unfit for public viewing. Obviously, that was wrong, but as a matter of taste, and by the standards of 1963 it was not unreasonable. Have you ever watched the Geraldo show in which Groden brought in a bad copy of the film. Did you hear the crowd's response?

Seeing blood blown out from the President's head in the Muchmore film was certainly "gruesome" at the time. In fact, I cannot remember EVER seeing a movie or newsreel back then, in which the audience saw a real-life murder being committed - NEVER, not even once.

[Dean Hagerman]

The Don Rickles of Spartacus.

[Craig Lamson]

The Don Rickles of Spartacus.

Thanks so much for making my point, Howdy Doody...