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Whereabouts of Mr. Hudson


David Josephs
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That shot from behind the fence, and behind them, is why they disappeared. . . when they dropped down and took cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken, What am I missing here? There is no "they" according to the Nix film ... only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence. Had it not been for Moorman's photo and the Nix print Groden had ... I could accept the possibility that you offer, but they cannot be dismissed. There isd no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place ... if there is, then can someone show it to me?

Bill

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No shooter. No Mom. No baby. And no broom. Just two kids, a boy and a girl between 18 and 21 -- as barely older, 23 year-old Marilyn Sitzman described them -- standing together at the top of the stairway. That's why we don't see them sitting on the bench behind the wall in the Betzner and Willis photos. The girl is blocking a view of most of the boy to her right in much the same way that Running Man blocks a view of most of Emmett Hudson to his right on the steps below. She may have been holding a rolled-up umbrella. After the shots began, but before the last shot, the two kids took cover behind the wall -- which is why we don't see them in the Moorman photo -- and were soon joined there by late twenties, white not black, Running Man who called back, urging 58 year-old Emmett Hudson and 60 year-old Francis Mudd to get down, which they did, Hudson on the steps and Mudd in the grass to his right. Within 10 seconds or so after the last shot, the kids got up and ran to the back, according to Sitzman. However, they weren't getting up from the bench, but rather from the ground behind the wall.

Ken

Martin,

Sitzman assumed the kids got up and ran away ... she never said she saw them do it. My understanding is that she only saw them last when the parade entered the plaza.

The Sitzman scaling is not accurate for she was closer to the camera than the BDM, which your illustration didn't allow for.

Bill

You have a lot of fantasy Ken. lol

Nice story but nothing of the photographic evidence support it.

bdmradius96.png

willisbdmsitzman-1.jpg

best

Martin

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I don't understand your question regarding the shots from the grassy knoll. I believe GA was there as he said and that shot(s) were fired from the knoll.

I'm not saying Sitzman mad anything up, just mis-remembered the timing, as did Rosemary by just a few seconds.

The photographic record certainly supports the above statements. The only support I have seen for Sitzxman being correct is by using one blurred image while not crossing referencing the Moorman, Nix, and Betzner assassination images.

Bill

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That shot from behind the fence, and behind them, is why they disappeared. . . when they dropped down and took cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken, What am I missing here? There is no "they" according to the Nix film ... only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence. Had it not been for Moorman's photo and the Nix print Groden had ... I could accept the possibility that you offer, but they cannot be dismissed. There isd no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place ... if there is, then can someone show it to me?

Bill

FWIW, there are news reports, both radio and newspaper as I recall, of a black couple being seen "scrambling" (I think is how one reads) along a walkway after the shooting.

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Sitzman then wraps up that part of the interview by saying she always felt that the couple had remained sitting on the bench because when she looked back in that area after the shots had been fired they were in the process of getting up from the bench.

It's easy to understand how she might think they were getting up from the bench since they had dropped to the ground right in front of it. When they stood up, it appeared that they had gotten up from the bench which was facing the street between her and them.

By the way, this doesn't preclude Gordon Arnold from also being there.

Ken

Ken ... Betzner took his photo just prior to the first shot being heard and there is no one sitting at the bench in Betzner's photo. Sitzman for what ever reason got that part wrong. Willis took his photo just under one second later and his photo shows nothing different than Betzner's. Other than Sitzman's description, which seems based on assumption, the photo record simply doesn't support her remarks.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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FWIW, there are news reports, both radio and newspaper as I recall, of a black couple being seen "scrambling" (I think is how one reads) along a walkway after the shooting.

Todd,

I am sure you do not believe the photos were altered and would probably also agree that newspaper reports in situations like this during moments of mayhem are often unreliable. There is no doubt that the black couple left the walkway area, however the photo record doesn't show them doing so anytime between Betzner's photo being taken before the first shot rang out right through to the Nix film showing the one lone individual up there going to the ground.

I can see someone who is an alteration supporter considering the black couple being at the bench, but those who do not cannot have it both ways. I think in the Betzner photo the pyracantha bush blocks the corner of Elm and Houston, which could cause someone sitting on the bench to get up and move to a better vantage point.

Also, (not related to this response), I know Sitzman mentioning a bottle breaking, but none of the assassination films and photos show broken glass along the walkway. The only liquid seen looks to be confined to one puddle as if poured out ... and certainly not from a bottle smashing against the concrete. I hear this continually coming up and I just wanted to mention it.

Thanks,

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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Martin,

Sitzman assumed the kids got up and ran away ... she never said she saw them do it. My understanding is that she only saw them last when the parade entered the plaza.

The Sitzman scaling is not accurate for she was closer to the camera than the BDM, which your illustration didn't allow for.

Bill

Bill, i took care of the scale of course. She is scaled properly proportional to the different distances.

I'am 3D Designer. You are maybe not aware of it.

So, the illustration is correct.

Thanks

Martin

Edited by Martin Hinrichs
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That shot from behind the fence, and behind them, is why they disappeared. . . when they dropped down and took cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken, What am I missing here? There is no "they" according to the Nix film ... only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence. Had it not been for Moorman's photo and the Nix print Groden had ... I could accept the possibility that you offer, but they cannot be dismissed. There isd no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place ... if there is, then can someone show it to me?

Bill

1. "...only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence."

That's because the young couple was on the ground, behind the wall immediately after Betzner/Willis but before Moorman, then off and running from the area ten seconds or slightly more after the head shot. Time stamp your Willis print and you'll know exactly where they were at that time.

2. "There is no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place. . . (italics mine)"

In the Thompson interview, Sitzman said:

". . . after the last shot I recall hearing and the car went down under the triple underpass there, I heard a crash of glass, and I looked over there, and the kids had thrown down their coke bottles, just threw them down and just started running towards the back. . . I don't recall which way they went. . . I heard the bottles crash, and of course I looked that way, to my right, right away, and they were getting up and running towards the back. . . I always have the feeling that they were still sitting on the bench, because when I looked over there, they were getting up from the bench."

So Sitzman did see the young couple after the shots.

Ken

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Martin,

Sitzman assumed the kids got up and ran away ... she never said she saw them do it. My understanding is that she only saw them last when the parade entered the plaza.

The Sitzman scaling is not accurate for she was closer to the camera than the BDM, which your illustration didn't allow for.

Bill

Bill, i took care of the scale of course. She is scaled properly proportional to the different distances.

I'am 3D Designer. You are maybe not aware of it.

So, the illustration is correct.

Thanks

Martin

Your illustration may or may not be correct. But why would you cut and paste Sitzman at the end of the wall? No one is saying that she was there. And she was a tall woman, possibly 5'9" according to a relative of hers whom Jack White spoke to per a post of Jack's on this forum back in 2006. And she was wearing high heels.

Anyway, it doesn't change anything. The young couple was standing at the top of the stairs in Betzner and Willis. Then they took cover on the ground behind the wall just before Moorman. Ten seconds or so after the last shot they were gone.

Ken

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Your illustration may or may not be correct. But why would you cut and paste Sitzman at the end of the wall? No one is saying that she was there. And she was a tall woman, possibly 5'9" according to a relative of hers whom Jack White spoke to per a post of Jack's on this forum back in 2006. And she was wearing high heels.

I did that for height comparison purposes. I thought everybody get it.

Anyway, it doesn't change anything. The young couple was standing at the top of the stairs in Betzner and Willis. Then they took cover on the ground behind the wall just before Moorman. Ten seconds or so after the last shot they were gone.

Ken

I doesn't change anything for you. You forget to add words like : i think, i believe, in my opinion...etc

cause what you said again is nothing but your own believe.

Thats you good right but i certainly disagree.

Martin

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Herb... you gonna say that 59 witnesses who saw and heard shots from the GK also does not "ring true". What about her statement or person leads you to believe her statement doesn't ring true?

For what purpose would Sitzman make that up?

and if "made up" please explain how the coke, bag and broken glass with liquid winds up where they are, who put them there

and finally, since that bottle is not in any other photo... when did the coke bottle get put on the corner of the wall?

Ken...

So it sounds like you are agreeing with me... that BDM is really the boy and girl standing together... that makes sense to me as well which would explain why they disappeared so quickly yet I would place the boy in front based on Rosemary Willis' and other's description...

As far as I can tell, Rosemary's description of the BDM figure never addressed gender. According to the HSCA, it was referred to merely as "a person."

Ken

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Your illustration may or may not be correct. But why would you cut and paste Sitzman at the end of the wall? No one is saying that she was there. And she was a tall woman, possibly 5'9" according to a relative of hers whom Jack White spoke to per a post of Jack's on this forum back in 2006. And she was wearing high heels.

I did that for height comparison purposes. I thought everybody get it.

Martin

Great. Now put your cut and paste figure further back from the wall at the top of the steps in both of the Willis and Betzner photos. Then we might have a more accurate idea of how tall the BDM figure really was in comparison to a 5'9" woman in heels.

Ken

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Bill, i took care of the scale of course. She is scaled properly proportional to the different distances.

I'am 3D Designer. You are maybe not aware of it.

So, the illustration is correct.

Thanks

Martin

Right on, Martin .. I wish I could do that stuff. Now ... are you able to get the ground level at the wall on its west side?

Bill

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1. "...only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence."

That's because the young couple was on the ground, behind the wall immediately after Betzner/Willis but before Moorman, then off and running from the area ten seconds or slightly more after the head shot. Time stamp your Willis print and you'll know exactly where they were at that time.

2. "There is no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place. . . (italics mine)"

In the Thompson interview, Sitzman said:

". . . after the last shot I recall hearing and the car went down under the triple underpass there, I heard a crash of glass, and I looked over there, and the kids had thrown down their coke bottles, just threw them down and just started running towards the back. . . I don't recall which way they went. . . I heard the bottles crash, and of course I looked that way, to my right, right away, and they were getting up and running towards the back. . . I always have the feeling that they were still sitting on the bench, because when I looked over there, they were getting up from the bench."

So Sitzman did see the young couple after the shots.

Ken

Ken ... I understand you believe the black kids are the BDM and that they went behind the wall after the first shot was fired. If this is the case, then where did the guy come from in Moorman's photo ... you are surely not saying that there were three people within the BDM image - are you?

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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Great. Now put your cut and paste figure further back from the wall at the top of the steps in both of the Willis and Betzner photos. Then we might have a more accurate idea of how tall the BDM figure really was in comparison to a 5'9" woman in heels.

Ken

Ken's right ... One doesn't know the distance is from the wall. I know the ground in that corner was lower than the ground near the bench and a Sitzman standing in front of the wall would appear taller in Willis by having her stand behind it.

Bill

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