Help Please - need to see FBI Item D-77: Kleins orders

[James DiEugenio]

Mr. Josephs, 

 

Above, you refer to REA for the rifle.  I thought REA transported the handgun, not the rifle?

Edited April 11, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

David J.,

You actually think the USPS and Klein's and Seaport Traders had knowledge of Lee Oswald living in Russia and being tracked by the FBI? Why would they have had that information at their fingertips?

[James DiEugenio]

Klein's and Seaport Traders? That's not what he is saying.

What he is saying is that the FBI was monitoring radicals through post offices and had informants there.  When Oswald returned from the USSR, everyone in the government was aware of it because of his correspondence with the State Department in early 1962 through the embassy.  This concerned his loan, the adjustment in his discharge, and the fact he was returning with a Russian wife--which was highly unusual, so much so that the INS got involved.These discussions and letters went on for a period of about 4-5 months.  (John Newman, Oswald and the CIA, pgs. 245-48)

On their return, Lee and Marina  stopped in Holland for 2-3 days, at which time some commentators believe Oswald was being debriefed.  Then they were met in NYC by Spas T. Raikin of Traveler's Aid, who was sent to meet him by the State Department.  In May of 1962, FBI HQ tells Dallas to interview Oswald before he has even left Russia.  Because the FBI was aware of the ONI traffic about Oswald's return and his discharge. This FBI traffic circulated between Washington, NYC and Dallas.  So the FBI interviewed him in June of 1962.

So the idea that Davey is trying to advance, that somehow no one knew a former American commie defector who had been in the USSR for over two years, and threatened to turn over radar secrets was coming back, and we better be aware of that and interview him and then monitor him,  this is WC, Bugliosian hokum.  In Clarence Kelley's book, he says the FBI monitored his mail and knew the publications he was dealing with. (ibid,p. 263)  

We are to think they knew he was getting The Worker, but no one knew he got a four foot package from one of the biggest weapons mail order houses in America?

Maybe because he didn't.

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[David Josephs]

Thanks Jim...  you'd think the fact Oswald's mail and activities were being monitored was obvious.

This is from the week the rifle and pistol were supposedly delivered...  The "blacked out name" is a source from whom the FBI received Intel on Oswald...

On the right we have a report on his FPCC activities from April 21, 1963...  AFTER he supposedly went to the USPO, saw the postcard in his PO Box, handed it to a clerk who in turn fetched a 5 foot cardboard carton from Klein's.  He then... 

...what Dave?  When Oswald leaves the USPO with his package... what happens next?  how did he get the rifle home? why didn't he keep the carton to transport the rifle? where did the carton go?  

In the bottom doc we see an account of Oswald mailing the Worker about the FPCC...  in June.

I'm curious Dave...  all the FBI reports between March 1963 and Nov 1963 and not one mention of a rifle...  or Judyth Baker for that matter...  both figments of an overactive imagination.  The FBI does not mention a rifle during that time because there was no rifle to talk about...

Prove otherwise.

 

[James DiEugenio]

DJ:  Thanks Jim...  you'd think the fact Oswald's mail and activities were being monitored was obvious.

 

If you never read anything except Bugliosi, the WR, and Jean Davison, its not so obvious.

[David Von Pein]

David Josephs said:

I'm curious Dave...  all the FBI reports between March 1963 and Nov 1963 and not one mention of a rifle...  or Judyth Baker for that matter...  both figments of an overactive imagination.  The FBI does not mention a rifle during that time because there was no rifle to talk about...

Prove otherwise.

There's tons of proof that Oswald owned and possessed a rifle and a revolver as of March 1963. Tons! You just refuse to believe ANY of it is legitimate. ALL of this stuff is fake (or flat-out wrong), per many CTers:

1. All (or most) of the "Waldman Exhibits" that are available in Volume 21 of the WC volumes.

2. Commission Exhibit No. 773.

3. The backyard photographs (which show Oswald with a rifle and a pistol).

4. 6 HSCA 146 (verifying the legitimacy of the backyard photos).

5. Marina Oswald's testimony where she talks about seeing the guns Lee owned.

6. Marina Oswald's testimony where she admits that she herself took the backyard photographs.

7. Jeanne DeMohrenschildt's testimony where she states that she saw a rifle in the closet of Lee Oswald's apartment on Neely Street in Dallas....

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"

8. The testimony of William J. Waldman, in which he testified that Klein's definitely did ship the C2766 Carcano to Oswald's post office box in Dallas in March of '63.

9. The handwriting on both the money order (CE788) and the order coupon and envelope for the rifle purchase (CE773). That handwriting and handprinting was positively identified as the writing of LEE HARVEY OSWALD by multiple handwriting experts for the Warren Commission and the HSCA. But CTers want to now pretend that ALL of those experts got it wrong (or were just flat-out lying, take your pick).

So, as we can see, there is AMPLE proof that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and possessed the Kennedy murder weapon (and the Tippit murder weapon as well).

Do conspiracy theorists really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Can CTers REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's and Seaport personnel who were performing the physical searches for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess many conspiracists must buy it.

Edited January 19, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

......

There's tons of proof that Oswald owned and possessed a rifle and a revolver as of March 1963. Tons! You just refuse to believe ANY of it is legitimate. ALL of this stuff is fake (or flat-out wrong), per many CTers:

1. .....

......8

So, as we can see, there is AMPLE proof that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and possessed the Kennedy murder weapon (and the Tippit murder weapon as well).

David J., do you really think the FBI "planted" all of those records in BOTH the Klein's files in Chicago AND the Seaport Traders files in Los Angeles prior to each of those companies finding the pertinent "Hidell" purchase records for both the rifle and the revolver on November 23, 1963? Do you REALLY believe they planted all of those records---right under the noses of the various Klein's & Seaport personnel who were performing the physical search for those documents on 11/23/63? Such a notion is absurd, of course. But I guess you must buy it.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Again DVP does one of his patented pivots.  The guy has more pivots than Hakeem Olajuwon did.

That was not the question. But please note the technique.

He brought up the whole FBI was not really monitoring LHO.  Then when it is shown that they were, he goes off on another path.

Even though hese other sources to exhibit the transaction have already been discussed and found wanting.

To use on example,  in her original SS interview, Marina said Oswald did not own a rifle with a scope. That neutralizes three of them.

Then let us grant, for the sake of argument only, that the Klein's records are real (which I do not buy at all).  Why did they then send him the wrong rifle?  And if that were the case, why could the FBI not find any instance in which Klein's did what DVP is saying happened: they sent a customer the 40.2 inch rifle because they were out of the 36 inch rifle.  The FBI had the records to do this with.  But they  did not show a precedent..

FInally, DVP never replied to the rather bizarre photos of handwritten over records, which did not even bother to insert an underline. And recall, this is shown in the volumes as a Waldman exhibit, which again is on Davey's list.  But evidently he was unaware of this rather bizarre practice.  And never asks the question of why it was Waldman testifying anyway.  

Hmm.

Edited April 11, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"

Was Jeanne DeMohrenschildt a big fat falsehood teller when she gave the above WC testimony, Jimmy?

Edited April 11, 2017 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

LOL, ROTF, LMAO! 

Jeanne DeM is the witness who said that Oswald used to take his kid out into the park and shoot his rifle off at birds

A long time ago I suggested you should do stand up Davey. Because you could say the dumbest stuff with a straight face.

This thread is proving I was right.

[Michael Clark]

21 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

MRS. DeMOHRENSCHILDT -- "And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?"

Was Jeanne DeMohrenschildt a big fat falsehood teller when she gave the above WC testimony, Jimmy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had been shown to him, but I don't remember that. 

Mrs. Oswald. the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.

------------

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?
Mr. JENNER. You say---
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.

------

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other part of the house?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two rooms. And then I returned back, and told George do you know what they have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on, according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any change----

Edited April 11, 2017 by Michael Clark

[David Von Pein]

28 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

...let us grant, for the sake of argument only, that the Klein's records are real (which I do not buy at all).

Good! More liars! And more "fake" stuff!

Continue, Jimmy....

 

Quote

...why could the FBI not find any instance in which Klein's did what DVP is saying happened: they sent a customer the 40.2 inch rifle because they were out of the 36 inch rifle.  The FBI had the records to do this with.  But they did not show a precedent..

Why would they have felt the NEED to perform such a meaningless task? Just to please you conspiracy clowns? (Yeah, right.)

 

Quote

DVP never replied to the rather bizarre photos of handwritten over records, which did not even bother to insert an underline.

Oh good! Jimmy thinks still MORE stuff is fake! Lovely!

Any end to the fakery in this case, Jimbo? Any end at all?

 

Quote

And never asks the question of why it was Waldman testifying anyway. 

Waldman was the Vice President of Klein's. And Waldman himself even told the FBI that HE (Waldman) was, indeed, the proper person to subpoena if testimony became necessary (with respect to the microfilm, at any rate). So what's your beef now, Jimmy?

Shall I add Bill Waldman to your "Liars List" too? (I'm sure he's already high up on your list anyway, right James? Why of course he is. Otherwise, Klein's sent the rifle to Oswald. And you'll never admit that fact in a billion years.)

Edited April 11, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

57 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Jeanne DeM is the witness who said that Oswald used to take his kid out into the park and shoot his rifle off at birds.

Great! Still more liars!!

Keep the liars comin', Jimmy!

Edited April 11, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Michael Clark]

45 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Great! Still more liars!!

Keep the liars comin', Jimmy!

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She (Marina) said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." 

-----------------------

......So, LHO takes a high powered military rifle to the park, with his two year old, and shoots at leaves?

I can see George doing a face-palm at the hearing; she tried though, she was trying to tow the line!

------------------

Mr. JENNER. Had you been there before?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you had ever been there?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. Maybe I was. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax----
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important.

Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember....

------------------

Nice try jaenne-d, Good thing that they told you that the oath doesn't mean anything in these procedings and assured you that no-one would be under threat of prosecution for perjury.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Michael Clark

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Jeanne DeM is the witness who said that Oswald used to take his kid out into the park and shoot his rifle off at birds.

Dead wrong. Jeanne never said that SHE herself saw Oswald out in the park shooting his gun. Jeanne was talking about what MARINA had said to her.