Harvey and Lee: John Armstrong

[Steven Gaal]

James B Walcott

Mr. Wilcott. Well, it was my understanding that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee of the agency and was an agent of the agency.

Mr. Goldsmith. What do you mean by the term "agent?"

Mr. Wilcott. That he was a regular employee, receiving a full-time salary for agent work for doing CIA operational work.

Mr. Goldsmith. How did this information concerning Oswald first come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. The first time I heard about Oswald being connected in any way with CIA was the day after the Kennedy assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And how did that come to your attention?

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I was on day duty for the station. It was a guard-type function at the station, which I worked for overtime. There was a lot of excitement going on at the station after the Kennedy assassination. Towards the end of my tour of duty, I heard certain things about Oswald somehow being connected with the agency, and I didn't really believe this when I heard it, and I thought it was absurd. Then, as time went on, I began to hear more things in that line.

Mr. Goldsmith. I think we had better go over that one more time. When, exactly, was the very first time that you heard or came across information that Oswald was an agent?

Mr. Wilcott. I heard references to it the day after the assassination.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who made these references to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. I can't remember the exact persons. There was talk about it going on at the station, and several months following at the station.

Mr. Goldsmith. How many people made this reference to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Mr. Wilcott. At least--there was at least six or seven people, specifically, who said that they either knew or believed Oswald to be an agent of the CIA.

Mr. Goldsmith. Was Jerry Fox one of the people that made this allegation?

Mr. Wilcott. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. Goldsmith. And who is Jerry Fox?

Mr. Wilcott. Jerry Fox was a Case Officer for his branch, the Soviet Russia Branch, [REDACTED] Station, who purchased information from the Soviets.

Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Wilcott, did I ask you to prepare a list of CIA Case Officers working at the [REDACTED] Station in 1963?

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, you did.

snip

Mr. Wilcott. The specific incident was soon after the Kennedy assassination, where an agent, a Case Officer--I am sure it was a Case Officer--came up to my window to draw money, and he specifically said in the conversation that ensued, he specifically said, "Well, Jim, the money that I drew the last couple of weeks ago or so was money" either for the Oswald project or for Oswald.

snip

Mr. Wilcott. I believe that Oswald was a double agent,

was sent over to the Soviet Union to do intelligence work,

that the defection was phoney and it was set up and that

I believe that Marina Oswald was an agent that had been

recruited sometime before and was waiting their in Tokyo

for Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Goldsmith. What is the basis for that opinion?

Mr. Wilcott. The basis for that is discussions that

I had with people at the XXXXX Station. Those are discussions

with people who gave the indication that there was every cer-

tainty that Oswald was an agent of CIA, runout of XXXXXXX

Station, and that he was freed from Russia there in the

final courses in Russia and was trained by CIA people at

Atsugi.

Thank you, Ray, for posting the exact language of Wilcott's testimony.

Clearly the unbiased reader can see that Wilcott's statement "under oath" was NOT FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE.

Wilcott began hearing rumors from people inside the CIA -- RUMORS! That's all he had.

So much for proof.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Mr. Wilcott. The specific incident was soon after the Kennedy assassination, where an agent, a Case Officer--I am sure it was a Case Officer--came up to my window to draw money, and he specifically said in the conversation that ensued, he specifically said, "Well, Jim, the money that I drew the last couple of weeks ago or so was money" either for the Oswald project or for Oswald. //// A bad joke or confusion ..or the accurate truth ,gaal

[David Josephs]

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. IOW you're just a thug with a vocabulary and a sense of history. Nice.

No doubt you have the inside scoop on the testicle controversy, you being such a putz and all...

Let us know a year or two in advance of when that revelation will come out... The marketing hype will barely be palpable...

And once again we see David Josephs palpably seething with jealousy...

It must be awful seeing your nemesis with his own ideas and his own research making exciting new inroads into this puzzle while your role is reduced to delivery boy for someone else's.

You Dawn and Jim used to go on about "minions" but you just cannot see the irony can you?

None of what you promote is your own work David. You do know that don't you?

Just because you are being used as a conduit does not therefore make it YOUR research. As I said, you are merely the delivery boy.

With that in mind maybe a more humble and less aggressive approach would more befit your small time status in the promotion of H&L.

I'm not holding my breath...

You and Parker spend the lion share of your time here posting about H&L ... YOU chose to view the H&L threads, YOU choose to comment on them with opinion and Parker-parrot-speak and then YOU get all uppity about my presenting the H&L evidence and not hawking my work here?

Why is it when we go to your profile and look for topics YOU'VE started the answer is ZERO... NONE, NADA, ZIP yet you can lecture me on the focus of MY work? When we look at your posts, 95% of them are on H&L threads... seems to me you're a bit obsessed with the topic and the members who support it... and then you lash out at me and Jim and Steve cause you are so terribly bad at rebutting the evidence... but then again you kiss Parker's artillery pretty regularly so he does your heavy lifting...

When you actually write something original, or start a thread on something YOU think - let us know.

Go take any of my 6 Mexico articles www.CTKA.net and critique them... Tell me what is wrong with my Judy Baker essay and evidence analysis. Let me know what you've done in regards to my Rifle posts, the timing of the assassination timeline or any one of a dozen different topics I've started or the scores of threads my posts appear within..

It is so obvious that you are "projecting" again. You find yourself in this thread MOST of the time, getting all worked up over not being able to counter anything on your own, with your own work... it certainly appears as if you don't do any of your own work.

With people who understand that it requires a little time and effort to read thru the work offered by H&L, or any one specific topic, before they chime in about how wrong it is, my approach is much less aggressive.

When the time comes you enter a H&L conversation without guns blazing and present a coherent argument, the skys will part and angels will sing... and you can be taken seriously. But first you might considering learning even just a little bit about the subject matter.

Your repeatedly need to demean the work and my contribution to it appears to me to come from a great insecurity on your part in your own inabilities to cobble together an organized rebuttal to anything that's been offered. Tracy sure seems to spend the majority of his time focuses on H&L... when does HE start "promoting their own work" - or is that only my irony?

That deer-in-the-headlights look you must have as you wade thru real work and real evidence comes shining thru your posts every time Bernie... and that you're PROUD that you can comment on something you haven't bothered to even read or aquaint yourself with is even more appalling... why would anything posted from such a self proclaimed uninformed member have any bearing on what others think of H&L? you ever wonder what that does to how people read any of your other work - if there is any....

btw - Parker and I can take care of ourselves Bernie... I'm actually finding his banter more and more amusing ... At least he has different interests within the case although from his time on H&L threads you'd barely know it.

I'm more than willing to drop any and all aggression or hostility if you and the boys agree to present the EVIDENCE which supports your posts and not get personal with ever uttered word...

Start cordially with the DoD letter to Blakey about Oswald never getting on that ship to Taiwan... and the evidence which shows him leaving and returning as well as the evidence which establishes his presence at Ping Tung...

And how Gorsky can have Oswald leaving the USMC in March 1959 while Donovan is Harvey's CO in the Summer and Fall of 1959...

Any proof you can provide which substantiates the DoD "Fact Sheet" of his not sailing on Sept 16th would be a great start... then there's Donovan, the guard duty shooting, etc...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0415a.htm is the link to CE1961 which shows him leaving the 14th of Sept and returning the 6th of Oct...

Isn't that a conflict with this: while being corroborated by the rest of the evidence?

LEAVING for South China Sea Sept 14th

Coming BACK on OCT 6th

Donovan with Oswald in Taiwan hidden until the HSCA...

Edited July 23, 2015 by David Josephs

[Steven Gaal]

Mr. Parker states he has informant that can show the Culture & Sensitivity tests could be made on the ship I guess Mr. Parker thinks the Secretary of Defense office are a bunch of liars....,gaal

Edited July 23, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Greg Parker]

There is too much counter evidence for him going. I will adopt your position regarding the FBI. It is a lie and a cover-up. But not for any doppelganger program. They just didn't want anyone digging around what was really happening in SEA at the time. As I have already said, I cover what was happening in my next volume.

Now how about you address Bernieritia Smith's testimony regarding the tooth and about little Bobby Newman (who was the person Myra was convinced by Armstrong was really "Harvey") - and explain why she was ignored by Armstrong.

After you've done that, I have a whole raft of other stuff you've so far avoided addressing.

[Paul Trejo]

Mr. Wilcott. The specific incident was soon after the Kennedy assassination, where an agent, a Case Officer--I am sure it was a Case Officer--came up to my window to draw money, and he specifically said in the conversation that ensued, he specifically said, "Well, Jim, the money that I drew the last couple of weeks ago or so was money" either for the Oswald project or for Oswald. //// A bad joke or confusion...or the accurate truth, gaal

Well, exactly, Steven. It's ambiguous. It's folly to build a system based on an ambiguous foundation.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited July 23, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

There is too much counter evidence for him going. I will adopt your position regarding the FBI. It is a lie and a cover-up. But not for any doppelganger program. They just didn't want anyone digging around what was really happening in SEA at the time. As I have already said, I cover what was happening in my next volume.

Now how about you address Bernieritia Smith's testimony regarding the tooth and about little Bobby Newman (who was the person Myra was convinced by Armstrong was really "Harvey") - and explain why she was ignored by Armstrong.

After you've done that, I have a whole raft of other stuff you've so far avoided addressing.

Interesting how you can accept defeat in a subject while throwing a jab on your way to the canvas...

The USMC records put him both in Taiwan and Atsugi at the same time.

The records show events that occurred both in Taiwan and Atsugi at the SAME TIME to the same Oswald #1653230.

The DoD lies about his never leaving in the face of his being in Ping Tung and proveably so.

How many times do we need to hear "in the next volume" when you can't even bother to post a tidbit so you dont sound like your pulling it out of your arsenal. Bottom line: two men, two places, same name and # according to the USMC.

Not possible unless there are two Lee Harvey Oswalds merged into one record.

--------------

Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?

Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.

Page 92 H&L

Oswald's aunt, Lillian Murret, remembered this event well. She told the Warren

Commission, "They were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in

back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, 'Lee,' and when he turned

around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip,

so she (Marguerite Oswald) had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and

I paid for the dentist bill myself ..... "

Mrs. SMITH. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was this boy--he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.

Mr. LIEBELER. Through the upper part of his lip?

Mrs. SMITH. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom----

Mr. LIEBELER. But it actually tore the lip?

Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember--what is that boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so well?

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel?

Mrs. SMITH. That is him.

Mr. LIEBELER. V-o-e-b-e-l?

Reading thru H&L I find "broken front tooth" and "missing front tooth" and all in relation to the larger LEE OSWALD. When Myra was shown this photo she stated this was not the HARVEY she knew.

When shown the Bronx zoo photo, she recognized Harvey.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10407#relPageId=427&tab=page is the link to the man corroborating that this was a photo taken by Voebel at BJHS.

The photo does indeed appear as if the tooth is missing... and that there is no scarring or bandages related to running a tooth THRU the lip...

Since we do not have records of the dentist he was taken to, all we can go by is the witness testimony and this photo. The middle two teeth are usually out and grow back between 6 and 8 years old.

Can you PROVE the tooth did not get knocked out or, like us, only can go by what was said. It appears just as lilkely it was knocked out given this photo, than running thru his lip...

The POINT that you completely butcher is that MYRA sees this and knows it is not the Harvey Oswald she knew. If the tooth was not knocked out, this photo is strange, no?

Whether the man in the coffin was the southern born 5'11" 150lb LEE or 5'9" 135lb HARVEY remains a debate and would not be concluded simply because of the tooth in question here.

The photo does seem to be worth a 1000 words though... as for the whole rash of stuff you have... most has been covered already here...

Seems to me your admitting there were two Oswald's in the records and the DoD lied about the one never leaving does not change the situation from 2 to 1 person.

Donovan stating he was with Oswald in Taiwan at the same time Lee is getting medical treatment does not seem to be something you can refute...

Will you be offering your explanation backed by evidence, or you just accepting that the Evidence shows two men with one record?

[Bernie Laverick]

Actually, John A. has told me personally how pleased he is that David Josephs has been able to take his original research and build upon it with important new findings. A number of David's essays that go well beyond what John originally published in Harvey and Lee, especially about Mexico City, are featured at Jim DiEugenio's site, CTKA.net.

Exactly what new evidence for a doppelganger programme has David unearthed that can't be found in Armstrong's work?

Please list these "new findings".

Should you not ne able to do so and hurl insults instead we can all conclude, as I said earlier, that he has provided a big fat zero to the theory he spends nearly all his life promoting. Just like you Jim...

Bump

[Greg Parker]

David, I am going to make this short because I am away from home base and using an iPad.

I never conceded anything. You and Armstrong have simply done what you do - taken a seeming anomaly and wove it into the harvey myth.

As we are repeatedly reminded, Armstrong is a wealthy man who spent quite a bit travelling around, interviewing witnesses whose fallible and malleable memories could be used. Could he not have spent a little of that money instead on experts in various fields?

In this case, an expert on military records would take the guesswork out of it. For that matter, John Newman is considered such an expert yet I don't see him throwing any support for a doppelgänger theory.

As for the tooth - voebel was the only person who claimed a tooth was knocked out. And even then, he was not certain. The photo proves nothing. It was loosened and cut the lip as shown in the autopsy report. It was reset by a dentist paid for by Lillian. As for Myra, the little guy she remembered was bobby Newman. That's why voebel doesn't mention the piano incident. It happened to Newman not oswald. Moreover no one except Myra ever claimed oswald wanted to be called harvey and to top it off, she told the FBI she could not remember much at all about him. Your only recourse is to make the totally unsupported allegation that the FBI faked the report.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Greg Parker

[David Josephs]

The photo proves nothing

Only says you Greg... the rest of us have eyes. and yes, Voebel says it might have been knocked out...

You wrote:

"There is too much counter evidence for him going. I will adopt your position regarding the FBI. It is a lie and a cover-up. But not for any doppelganger program"

To the rest of us, this means you're agreeing that the evidence of his going to Taiwan COUNTERS the DoD lies about his not going. That he went and during this time a Lee Oswald was treated in Japan... Resolve the conflict Greg.

(edit - as I read your statement again I see you mean the opposite - that there is actually too much evidence that COUNTERS his going - then POST some. I've posted the evidence showing he went and others have posted the evidence showing the med records are from Atsugi.. you've done nothing so far to show he stayed and was not in Ping Tung but speculate... {buzzer} Fail!

The statement also suggests you supposedly know something that you simply don't while not offering anything to support your speculation... it was the records which reached the WC/HSCA that matter in our analysis of the conspiracy which was perpetrated. If you've uncovered evidence of SEA programs which can explain how the Folsom and Donabedian Exhibits do not show 2 men with the same SN# in two places at the same time... give us your best shot.

You see Greg, you just saying so means ZIP, NADA, ZILCH. You BELIEVE one thing or another, you have FAITH that records showing his leaving and coming from Taiwan and the DoD and HSCA going out of their way to try and FIX the USMC records so it did not show this conflict was some SEA related thing... IOW if it was not a SEA thing as you claim, your book and work is not as accurate and revealing as you'd originally thought -kinda puts a damper on volumes 2 and beyond....

All you need to is offer the supporting evidence for these speculations - simple.

Can you Prove it was Bobby and not Harvey?

You are aware there was the Neumeyer boys fight a few days before the tooth fight with Riley, both Lee, not Harvey...

As for Myra, the little guy she remembered was bobby Newman. That's why voebel doesn't mention the piano incident.

This is standard double-speak Greg... you know what a tautology is, mate?

That was NOT why he did not mention a piano incident (assuming you mean his testimony)... he was never ASKED about anything about it as it was not anything they would have known about... Even if Myra told the FBI about the incident it was not in anything the FBI offered the WC... Why would Voebal bring up some random event from 7 years before if he was never asked about it?

Until you can prove it was not Harvey, anything that follows is pure guesswork on your part. And then that house you build upon your guesswork is on a sinking foundation.. PROVE something that you offer is authentic Greg... and not just you guessing.

As for the trustworthiness of FBI reporting - All the FBI reports do is state information which may not be entirely representative of what was said. When you show me the signed statement from the person they interviewed (like Palmer) as to what they said and published is correct, then we are getting somewhere. When all you offer are FBI paraphrases with no connection to the witnesses themselves, sorry Greg, but the FBI does not get a free ride simply cause they're the FBI - in this instance they have proven themselves unreliable... THEIR evidence incriminating Oswald or removing conflicts needs to be ironclad...

That's just not what we see.

The FBI can't get away from Palmer other than just saying he was mistaken and leaving it at the FBI v Palmer - in 1963 the FBI won that battle. But since Palmer insisted on signing his statement the FBI report could not say whatever if wanted to claim he said... did you know if they ever spoke with Larry Williamson? or did they avoid Pfisterer's corroboration at all costs?

"I have read and initialled each page and all corrections on this six page statement. I declare that it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.

/S/ PALMER EDWIN McBRIDE

McBRIDE stated that Mr. LAWRENCE WILLIAMSON, Bookkeeper, and Miss AMELDA (Last Name Unknown), Secretary at Pfisterer Dental Laboratory Company, would probably recall remarks made by OSWALD favoring Russia and Communism

Greg,

Did you personnally ask Myra if the boy in Voebal's photo was Harvey? the boy in the Zoo photo? in 1995 John did... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwUsZ8RjIqg

What have you done and what do you offer to substantiate what you claim?

Edited July 24, 2015 by David Josephs

[Greg Parker]

There is no conflict in the records regarding oswald's whereabouts in the marines. That is why Armstrong won't get a military experts opinion. It is why Newman (just such an expert) is not an board with Armstrong.

If the tooth was knocked out why is voebel the only person suggesting it was? Why was oswald taken to a dentist?

And please keep any reply under 200000 words. The verbal onslaught is a form of abuse on many eves and also qualifies as a logical fallacy known as "proof by verbosity". Within that, you always seem to pack inside three more logical fallacies.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Steven Gaal]

There is no conflict in the records regarding oswald's whereabouts in the marines. // GREG PARKER

======================================================================

That above statement is 100 % wrong and blantantly absurd. ,gaal

===

ab·surd·i·ty

əbˈsərdədē,əbˈzərdədē/

noun

noun: absurdity; plural noun: absurdities

the quality or state of being ridiculous or wildly unreasonable.

"JFK researchers laughed at the absurdity of the situation"

synonyms:

preposterousness, ridiculousness, ludicrousness, incongruity, inappropriateness, risibility, idiocy, stupidity, foolishness, folly, silliness, inanity, insanity; More

=============================================================

In the POTUS murder the FBI lost the original records. (see below) SURE. Mr. Parker , please revisit the above definition on absurdity. ,gaal

===

excerpt JOSEPH POST # 652 this thread.

===

John Ely on the WC was given the task of compiling info on Oswald's background... p56* of H&L discusses how he finds out by March that the FBI has done virtually nothing in their reporting to show they investigated anything about his childhood... that Life is in the lead on this info as they've been in virtually every area...

As he proceeds with his task he discovers that all the NYC school records are copies - while the trail of the originals ends with SAIC Malone

In preparation for the testimony of Marguerite Oswald in February 1964, the Warren Commission requested Oswald's original New York school and court records

from Mayor Wagner of New York City. On February 4, Miss Bernice McCrae of the Mayors office spoke with Judge Kelley, who advised that she had given the original

records to SAIC John Malone. Miss McCrae then telephoned the FBI's New York Office. She asked if the original records in the Oswald file had, in fact, been turned over to the Warren Commission. Miss McCrae never received an answer. Later that afternoon she wrote a letter on behalf of Mayor Wagner to Mr. Rankin of Warren Commission which stated, "I am attaching to this letter copies of the school records ....

Judge Florence Kelley informed me she turned over all original records in the possession of the Family Court dealing with the case of Lee Harvey Oswald to John F. Malone, Assistant Director in Charge of the New York City office of the FBI."42 There is no evidence or documentation whatsoever that Malone turned the original court file over to the Warren Commission.

On February 7, at 3:37 pm, FBI Inspector J. R. Malley telephoned the FBI's New York office and spoke to the Assistant Special Agent in Charge, W. M. Alexander, about the original court records. Malley advised that FBI headquarters in Washington had no information that indicated the original documents had been received from New

York and he asked Alexander to check further.

At 3:45 pm Alexander telephoned Malley and advised that SAIC Malone. his supervisor. had photographed the entire file and that copies of the file had been sent to FBI headquarters in Washington. Alexander said there was no record that photographs were sent to FBI headquarters, but that additional photographs of the file were available. Malley then asked that two copies of the photographs be sent immediately to his attention at FBI Headquarters in Washington.

As John says through out the book, as well as the HSCA handwriting experts, copies are the easiest way to forge documents since they cannot be examined for many of the key identifiers originals offer. When the FBI has originals which disappear in favor of copies which are in conflict with the real world... further investigation is warranted.

Whether the FBI discovered H&L possibilities after the fact or knew at some point along the way, back to the inception... is one of those mysteries that will be most difficult to unravel. Hoover seems to be hinting about it... and wouldn't the FBI be watch-list agency #1 on a commie defector returning with a wife and child and settling back into the US?

The FBI could know every little thing about a citizen... it's not until March 64 that his life story is investigated yet they are Pfisterer's the week after the assassination...

*After the assassination the Warren Commission assigned a young staff attorney,

John Hart Ely, to locate, gather, and organize information on the background of Lee

Harvey Oswald and his family. Ely, like so many US citizens in the early 1960's, trusted

our government and the FBI.

Ely was a young attorney, not an investigator, and depended upon the FBI to

interview Oswald's friends, classmates and relatives, and furnish their reports to the

Commission. A few months into his work, after receiving only a handful of FBI reports

relating to Oswald's background and early life, Ely became concerned. He communicated

his concerns about the FBI's apparent lack of investigation into Oswald's background

with fellow Warren Commission attorneys.

A short while later John Ely read articles in Life Magazine and found that reporters

had interviewed Oswald's grammar school classmates in Fort Worth. He could

not understand why the FBI had not interviewed those same people and began to realize

that the FBI had not conducted a thorough investigation into Oswald's background.

Ely compiled a list of 13 people who had been interviewed by Life Magazine

and, on March 20, 1964, wrote a memo to Wesley J. Liebeler. Ely wrote, "once again let

56

me urge that we should not have to rely upon Life Magazine for such a list. The FBI

should undertake a systematic investigation and interview of Oswald's closest school

friends."26 Copies of the memo were sent to Warren Commission Attorneys Rankin,

Willens, Jenner and Meek. 53-02

Ely continued to gather FBI reports, Warren Commission testimony, Commission

documents, Secret Service reports, etc. in an attempt to piece together the life and

background of Lee Harvey Oswald and his family. Ely wrote hundreds of pages of

memorandums which were used in preparing the Warren Report, that are now located

in the National Archives.

Assembling, sorting, analyzing, and writing memorandums and a final report on

Oswald's background left Ely little time to resolve discrepancies. From his memorandums

it is apparent that Ely was aware of certain discrepancies in Oswald's life, but it

is not known if he realized their significance or made any attempts to resolve them.

One discrepancy known to Ely is contained in a letter written by Dr. Milton

Kurian, a New York Psychiatrist and former president of the American Psychiatric Association,

to Jackie Kennedy after the assassination. 53-03 Dr. Kurian told Mrs. Kennedy

that while working with the New York Court system, in March 1953, he interviewed

young Oswald in his office. When John Ely reviewed the letter, he realized that Dr.

Kurian had interviewed Oswald several weeks before Oswald appeared in court and was

remanded to the Youth House.

Ely wrote, "he (Kurian) states that the interview (with Oswald) occurred toward

the end of March, 1953; however, in view of the fact that he refers to a report from Youth

House which had been prepared prior to his seeing the boy, it must have been later in

that year."27 Ely, without ever contacting or interviewing Dr. Kurian, concluded the

doctor must be in error and did no further checking. Had Ely telephoned Dr. Kurian,

the good doctor could have told him about his meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald. Ely

should have made the call.

NOTE: If Ely did not have the time to interview Kurian, he could have asked the FBI

to interview him.

In 1964 Ely wrote a 26-page memorandum about Oswald's life from 12/26/42 to

9/28/56.28 The memorandum contained information from Oswald's interviews with probation

officer John Carro, Psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs, social worker Evelyn Strickman,

psychologist Irving Sokolow, and staff reports from Youth House, but did not mention Dr.

Kurian.

It is difficult to understand why Ely would not be interested in the professional

opinion of a New York psychiatrist who was the past president of the American Psychiatric

Association, and had interviewed young Oswald in 1953. Ely never bothered to

telephone or contact Dr. Kurian, even though Kurian's letter, stating clearly that he had

interviewed Oswald, was in his file

Edited July 25, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[David Josephs]

There is no conflict in the records regarding oswald's whereabouts in the marines. That is why Armstrong won't get a military experts opinion. It is why Newman (just such an expert) is not an board with Armstrong.

If the tooth was knocked out why is voebel the only person suggesting it was? Why was oswald taken to a dentist?

And please keep any reply under 200000 words. The verbal onslaught is a form of abuse on many eves and also qualifies as a logical fallacy known as "proof by verbosity". Within that, you always seem to pack inside three more logical fallacies.

For someone who claims to have all the Oswald answers - you sure ask a lot of clueless, pointless and rhetorical questions.

Terribly sorry for more than a handful of words and many of them multi-syllabic... I'll try not to tax your limited capabilities any longer...

Hey, here's a thought... go read the book as you would expect anyone attacking your work to have done... I know... 1000 pages is simply too much for you to be able to handle in one lifetime....

Sure does seem that ROKC refugees whine an awful lot about everything they don't understand and then resort to insults when the whining doesn't work... is that a class you offer over there?

Here's a thought, divide our long posts up among you and then when you can huddle up and trade insights before you come here and whine some more...

Edited July 25, 2015 by David Josephs

[Steven Gaal]

By W. Tracy Parnell

Gordon Lonsdale (p. 1)

Armstrong begins his presentation with the story of Gordon Lonsdale a spy arrested in 1961 for passing British defense secrets to the Russians. After his arrest, it was determined that Lonsdale, who held a Canadian passport, was really Konan Molody (Armstrong uses the spelling Molodi, but his source and one I found both use Molody) who was a Russian born in 1922 (my source says 1923). Molody went to California at the age of nine where he lived with his aunt and learned the English language. In 1954 he went to Canada where he assumed Lonsdale’s identity. He then traveled to England where he began his espionage activities. Armstrong states, "If the KGB recruited young boys, can there be any doubt that our intelligence agencies ran similar operations?".

TRACY PARNELL disparages the use of Children in intelligence activities. However the intelligence agencies thought children were a valuable resource. ,gaal

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The Hidden Tragedy of CIA's Psychopathic Experiments on Children Exposed

H.P. Albarelli Jr. and Jeffrey S. Kaye
Truthout
Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:07 UTC

© Lance Page / t r u t h o u t; Adapted: L'Ubuesque Boîte à Savon, Humayunn N A Peerzaada

Bobby is seven years old, but this is not the first time he has been subjected to electroshock. It's his third time. In all, over the next year, Bobby will experience eight electroshock sessions. Placed on the examining table, he is held down by two male attendants while the physician places a solution on his temples. Bobby struggles with the two men holding him down, but his efforts are useless. He cries out and tries to pull away. One of the attendants tries to force a thick wedge of rubber into his mouth. He turns his head sharply away and cries out, "Let me go, please. I don't want to be here. Please, let me go." Bobby's physician looks irritated and she tells him, "Come on now, Bobby, try to act like a big boy and be still and relax." Bobby turns his head away from the woman and opens his mouth for the wedge that will prevent him from biting through his tongue. He begins to cry silently, his small shoulders shaking and he stiffens his body against what he knows is coming.

Mary is only five years old. She sits on a small, straight-backed chair, moving her legs back and forth, humming the same four notes over and over and over. Her head, framed in a tangled mass of golden curls, moves up and down with each note. For the first three years of her life, Mary was thought to be a mostly normal child. Then, after she began behaving oddly, she had been handed off to a foster family. Her father and mother didn't want her any longer. She had become too strange for her father, whose alcoholism clouded any awareness of his young daughter. Mary's mother had never wanted her anyway and was happy to have her placed in another home. When the LSD Mary has been given begins to have its effects, she stops moving her head and legs and sits staring at the wall. She doesn't move at all. After about ten minutes, she looks at the nearby physician observing her, and says, "God isn't coming back today. He's too busy. He won't be back here for weeks."
----

From early 1940 to 1953, Dr. Lauretta Bender, a highly respected child neuropsychiatrist practicing at Bellevue Hospital in New York City, experimented extensively with electroshock therapy on children who had been diagnosed with "autistic schizophrenia." In all, it has been reported that Bender administered electroconvulsive therapy to at least 100 children ranging in age from three years old to 12 years, with some reports indicating the total may be twice that number. One source reports that, inclusive of Bender's work, electroconvulsive treatment was used on more than 500 children at Bellevue Hospital from 1942 to 1956, and then at Creedmoor State Hospital Children's Service from 1956 to 1969. Bender was a confident and dogmatic woman, who bristled at criticism, oftentimes refused to acknowledge reality even when it stood starkly before her.

Despite publicly claiming good results with electroshock treatment, privately Bender said she was seriously disappointed in the aftereffects and results shown by the subject children. Indeed, the condition of some of the children appeared to have only worsened. One six-year-old boy, after being shocked several times, went from being a shy, withdrawn child to acting increasingly aggressive and violent. Another child, a seven-year-old girl, following five electroshock sessions had become nearly catatonic.

Years later, another of Bender's young patients who became overly aggressive after about 20 treatments, now grown, was convicted in court as a "multiple murderer." Others, in adulthood, reportedly were in and of trouble and prison for a battery of petty and violent crimes. A 1954 scientific study of about 50 of Bender's young electroshock patients, conducted by two psychologists, found that nearly all were worse off after the "therapy" and that some had become suicidal after treatment. One of the children studied in 1954 was the son of well-known writer Jacqueline Susann, author of the bestselling novel "Valley of the Dolls." Susann's son, Guy, was diagnosed with autism shortly after birth and, when he was three years old, Dr. Bender convinced Susann and her husband that Guy could be successfully treated with electroshock therapy. Guy returned home from Bender's care a nearly lifeless child. Susann later told people that Bender had "destroyed" her son. Guy has been confined to institutions since his treatment.

To their credit, some of Dr. Bender's colleagues considered her use of electroshock on children "scandalous," but few colleagues spoke out against her, a situation still today common among those in the medical profession. Said Dr. Leon Eisenberg, a widely respected physician and true pioneer in the study of autistic children, "[Lauretta Bender] claimed that some of these children recovered [because of her use of shock treatment]. I once wrote a paper in which I referred to several studies by [Dr. E. R.] Clardy. He was at Rockwin State Hospital - the back up to Bellevue - and he described the arrival of these children. He considered them psychotic and perhaps worse off then before the treatment." (This writer could find no case where any of Bender's colleagues spoke out against her decidedly racist viewpoints. Bender made it quite clear that she felt that African-Americans were best characterized by their "capacity for laziness" and "ability to dance," both features, Bender claimed, of the "specific brain impulses" of African-Americans.)

About the same time Dr. Bender was conducting her electroshock experiments, she was also widely experimenting on autistic and schizophrenic children with what she termed other "treatment endeavors." These included use of a wide array of psycho-pharmaceutical agents, several provided to her by the Sandoz Chemical Co. in Basel, Switzerland, as well as Metrazol, sub-shock insulin therapy, amphetamines and anticonvulsants. Metrazol was a trade name for pentylenetetrazol, a drug used as a circulatory and respiratory stimulant. High doses cause convulsions, as discovered in 1934 by the Hungarian-American neurologist and psychiatrist Ladislas J. Meduna.

Metrazol had been used in convulsive therapy, but was never considered to be effective, and side effects such as seizures were difficult to avoid. The medical records of several patients who were confined at Vermont State Hospital, a public mental facility, reveal that Metrazol was administered to them by CIA contractor Dr. Robert Hyde on numerous occasions in order "to address overly aggressive behavior." One of these patients, Karen Wetmore, received the drug on a number of occasions for no discernible medical reason. During the same ten-year period in which Metrazol was used by the Vermont State Hospital, patient deaths skyrocketed. In 1982, the FDA revoked its approval of Metrazol.

Here it should be noted that, during the cold war years, CIA and Army Counter-Intelligence Corps (CIC) interrogators, working as part of projects Bluebird and Artichoke, sometimes injected large amounts of Metrazol into selected enemy or Communist agents for the purposes of severely frightening other suspected agents, by forcing them to observe the procedure. The almost immediate effects of Metrazol are shocking for many to witness: subjects will shake violently, twisting and turning. They typically arch, jerk and contort their bodies and grimace in pain. With Metrazol, as with electroshock, bone fractures - including broken necks and backs - and joint dislocations are not uncommon, unless strong sedatives are administered beforehand.

A November 1936 Time magazine article seriously questioned the benefits of Metrazol, citing "irreversible shock" as a "great danger." The article described a typical Metrazol injection as such: "A patient receives no food for four or five hours. Then about five cubic centimeters of the drug [Metrazol] are injected into his veins. In about half-a-minute he coughs, casts terrified glances around the room, twitches violently, utters a horse wail, freezes into rigidity with his mouth wide open, arms and legs stiff as boards. Then he goes into convulsions. In one or two minutes the convulsions are over and he gradually passes into a coma, which lasts about an hour. After a series of shocks, his mind may be swept clean of delusions.... A patient is seldom given more than 20 injections and if no improvement is noted after ten treatments, he is usually given up as hopeless."

The Army, the CIA and Metrazol

Army CIC interrogators working with the CIA at prisoner of war camps and safe house locations in post-war Germany on occasion used Metrazol, morphine, heroin and LSD on incarcerated subjects. According to former CIC officer Miles Hunt, several "safe houses and holding areas outside of Frankfurt near Oberursel" - a former Nazi interrogation center taken over by the US - were operated by a "special unit run by Capt. Malcolm S. Hilty, Maj. Mose Hart and Capt. Herbert Sensenig. The unit was especially notorious in its applications of interrogation methods [including the use of electroshock and Metrazol, mescaline, amphetamines and other drugs]." Said Hunt: "The unit took great pride in their nicknames, the 'Rough Boys' and the 'Kraut Gauntlet,' and didn't hold back with any drug or technique ... you name it, they used it." Added Hunt, "Sensenig was really disappointed when it was found that nothing had to be used on [former Reichsmarschall] Herman Goering, who was processed through the camp. Goering needed no inducement to talk."

Eventually, CIC interrogators working in Germany would be assisted in their use of interrogation drugs by several "former" Nazi scientists recruited by the CIA and US State Department as part of Project Paperclip. By early 1952, the CIC's Rough Boys would routinely use Metrazol during interrogations, as well as LSD, mescaline and conventional electroshock units.

Metrazol-like drugs are still used in interrogations today. According to reports from several former noncommissioned Army officers, who served on rendition-related security details in Turkey, Pakistan and Romania, drugs that produce effects quite similar to Metrazol are still used in 2010 by the Pentagon and CIA on enemy combatants and rendered subjects held at the many "black sites" maintained across the globe. Observed one former officer recently, "They would twist up like a pretzel, in unbelievable shapes and jerk and shake like crazy, their eyes nearly popping out of their heads."

In 2008, at the behest of US Sens. Carl Levin, Joe Biden and Chuck Hagel and in reaction to a March 2008 article in The Washington Post, the Pentagon initiated an Inspector General Report on the use of "mind-altering substances by DoD [Department of Defense] Personnel during Interrogations of Detainees and/or Prisoners Captured during the War on Terror." It is not known if the investigation has been completed. Among the more famous recent cases of the use of drugs upon prisoners concerns one-time alleged "enemy combatant" Jose Padilla, who had originally been accused of wanting to set off a "dirty bomb." The charge was later forced, but Padilla was held in solitary confinement for many months and forced to take LSD or other powerful drugs while held in the Navy brig in Charleston, South Carolina.

The government has gone to great efforts to keep the public uninformed as regards use of drugs on prisoners. In an article by Carol Rosenberg for McClatchy News in July 2010, Rosenberg reported that, when covering the Guantanamo military commissions trials, when the question of "what psychotropic drugs were given another accused 9/11 conspirator, Ramzi bin al Shibh, the courtroom censor hits a white noise button so reporters viewing from a glass booth can't hear the names of the drugs. Under current Navy instructions for the use of human subjects in research, the undersecretary of the Navy is described as the authority in charge of research concerning "consciousness-altering drugs or mind-control techniques," while at the same time is also responsible for "inherently controversial topics" that might attract media interest or "challenge by interest groups."

Dr. Bender Discovers LSD

In 1955 and1956, Dr. Bender began hearing glowing accounts about the potential of LSD for producing remarkable results in children suffering mental disorders, including autism and schizophrenia. Bender's earlier work with electroshock therapy had brought her into contact with several other prominent physicians who, at the time, were covert contractors with the CIA's MK/ULTRA and Artichoke projects. Primary among these physicians were Drs. Harold A. Abramson, Paul Hoch, James B. Cattell, Joel Elkes, Max Fink, Harris Isbell and Alfred Hubbard. Some of these names may be familiar to readers. Dr. Abramson, a noted allergist who surreptitiously worked for both the US Army and CIA since the late 1940s, was the physician Frank Olson was taken to see, shortly before his murder in New York City in November 1953. About a year earlier, Drs. Hoch and Cattell were responsible for injecting unwitting New York State Psychiatric Institute patient Harold Blauer with a massive dose of mescaline that killed him. Dr. Elkes was one of the earliest physicians in Europe to experiment with LSD, having requested samples of the drug from Sandoz Chemical Co. in 1949. Elkes was a close associate of Dr. Abraham Wikler, who worked closely with Dr. Harris Isbell at the now-closed Lexington, Kentucky, prison farm, where hundreds of already drug-addicted inmates were given heroin in exchange for their participation in LSD and mescaline experiments underwritten by the CIA and Pentagon. Elkes worked closely with the CIA, Pentagon and Britain's MI6 on drug experiments in England and the United States.

Dr. Fink, who was greatly admired by Bender, is considered the godfather of electroshock therapy in the United States. In the early 1950s and beyond, Fink was a fully cleared CIA Project Artichoke consultant. In 1951, CIA officials under the direction of Paul Gaynor and Morse Allen of the agency's Security Research Service (SRS) that oversaw Artichoke, worked closely with Fink in New York City in efforts to thoroughly explore the merits of electroshock techniques for interrogations. The CIA was especially interested in the use of standard electroshock machines in producing amnesia, inducing subjects to talk and making subjects more prone to hypnotic control. According to one CIA document, Fink told officials "an individual could gradually be reduced through the use to electroshock treatment to the vegetable level."

In addition to Fink, Bender also greatly admired the work of Dr. Lothar B. Kalinowsky, a psychiatrist who also consulted closely with the CIA on electroshock matters. Kalinowsky, who was part Jewish and had fled Germany in 1933, was Fink's close friend and, like Fink, was widely recognized as an expert on electroconvulsive therapy. Kalinowsky met with the CIA's Allen and Gaynor frequently and sometimes was accompanied by Dr. Fink at the New York State Psychiatric Institute, where he worked closely with Dr. Hoch.

While it is clear from Dr. Bender's papers that she also considered the early LSD work of "Dr." Alfred M. Hubbard in Vancouver, Canada, to be "very substantial and beneficial," it is important to state here that Hubbard was not a physician nor did he have any formal medical training. Hubbard, a jovial character who sometimes worked with the FBI and CIA, was a strong proponent of the use of LSD. Despite the fact that he had no medical credentials and once served time in prison for smuggling, he hoodwinked the Sandoz Chemical Co. into supplying him such ample amounts of LSD that he dispersed so widely and abundantly that he earned the title "The Johnny Appleseed of LSD." Hubbard's use of LSD in allegedly curing alcoholism is still cited today. How Hubbard so easily passed as a physician is unknown. Even a 1961 paper published by New York Medical College, Department of Psychiatry, and authored by Dr. A.M. Freedman, cited Hubbard's LSD work with "children, primarily delinquents" to have been 85% successful."

Other physicians whom Dr. Bender consulted about the effects of LSD on children were Drs. Ronald A. Sandison, Thomas M. Ling and John Buckman. These three worked in England at both the Chelsea Clinic in London and Potwick Hospital in Worcestershire, outside of London. Sandison is credited with having been the first person to bring LSD into England, this in 1952 after he met Albert Hofmann in Basle, Switzerland, at the Sandoz Chemical laboratories. Hofmann handed Sandison a box of around 600 ampules, each containing 100 micrograms of LSD. Back in England, Sandison shared his psychedelic bounty with associates Drs. Ling and Buckman. Before the year was out, Sandison also turned Hubbard on to LSD, guiding Hubbard through his first trip. Sandison also began a new treatment program at the Gothic-looking Potwick facility that he dubbed Psycholytic Therapy. His program's patients were mostly schizophrenics. In 1958, an LSD treatment unit was established at Potwick. Over the years, it has been reported that the CIA, MI6 and the Macy Foundation secretly helped finance the unit. Dr. Elkes helped by raising about $75,000 for the unit's operation. For the next ten years the unit administered over 15,000 doses of LSD to about 900 patients.

Drs. Buckman and Ling worked closely with Sandison in the Potwick unit. In 1963, Buckman and Ling wrote in a publication, describing "good examples" of the use of LSD in psycholytic psychotherapy: "The patients' experiences under LSD have not supported Marx's dictum that Religion is the opium of the people but rather that there is a deep basic belief in a Supreme Being, whether the religion background be Christian, Jewish or Hindu."

Dr. Buckman also worked at London's Chelsea Clinic, often times treating adults and sometimes children. Buckman believed strongly that "frigidity" in women could be treated successfully with LSD. In 1967, he said of LSD: "Many therapists believe that a transcendental experience - a feeling that it is a good world and one is a part of it - is a curative experience in itself." According to several informed sources in the London, for years MI6, the British intelligence service and the CIA closely monitored the LSD work conducted by Sandison, Ling and Buckman.

Two Sisters, LSD and Dr. Buckman

Marion McGill, today an attorney and college professor in the western United States and her sister, Trudy, were sent in 1960 by their parents to be interviewed by Drs. Ling and Buckman at the Chelsea Clinic in London. At the time, Marion was 13 years old and her sister was 15. Marion says that both her mother and father were "quite taken with the benefits of LSD and thought that we would also benefit from the drug." Both parents had undergone a series of ten LSD "treatments" at the Chelsea clinic. Marion goes on:

"As a 13-year old at the time, my decision-making capacity was very limited. I was, by nature, fairly compliant and docile, rather eager to please my parents. I understood nothing of what was being suggested for me and my 15 year-old sister - namely that we participate in some sort of 'research' that both our parents had also participated in. Whether the word 'experiment' was used, I don't recall. The term 'LSD' was vaguely familiar, however, because my parents were 'taking' this drug as a form of 'quick therapy' - their term for it - that had been recommended by my uncle, a psychiatrist at a well known east coast medical school. Both parents needed therapy, in my view. While highly successful professionally, my father was a tightly wound, rather angry and insecure man, an accomplished academic, but an 'industrial strength narcissist,' as I later called him. My mother was a submissive, obedient, Catholic woman without much identity of her own, other than being a doctor's wife.

"My sister and I, however, were about as 'normal' as any two teenagers could be. We were at the top of our classes in school; both of us had lots of friends, participated in extra curricular activities. We didn't need 'therapy.' We were told we would get a day off from school after each overnight stay at the clinic for this LSD. It was perhaps the prospect of a day off from Catholic girls' school that persuaded us to do it. I wasn't aware of making a 'decision.' The purpose of this program was never explained. There were to be 10 sessions - once a week for 10 weeks. I believe they started in January 1960.

"The experiences at the clinic where the LSD was administered were quite strange. There was a brief 'interview' by Dr. John Buckman, asking banal questions about health issues (none), but providing no information about what to expect from the LSD. There was no mention, for example, of hallucinations or perceptual distortions or anything frightening. I was not informed of any persistent effects, such as nightmares. Certainly the possibility of lasting damage was not mentioned. The word 'experiment' was not used. There was, in other words, no informed consent whatsoever. I was not told that I could refuse to participate, that I could quit at any time (as provided in the Nuremberg Code). Since I was below the age of consent, my parents would have been the ones to agree to this. Indeed, they were the ones to suggest that we be used in these experiments. It would not otherwise have happened. But my parents would never discuss this in later years and never explained why they did it.

"During the 10 sessions, each of which involved an injection, my sister and I were kept in separate bedrooms, darkened rooms, usually with someone present in the room, but I don't know who the person was. Occasionally, my mother was also present. At times, I was so frightened by the hallucinations that I screamed and tried to escape from the room. I remember once actually reaching the hallway and being forcibly put back into the bedroom by my mother. I saw a wild array of images - nightmarish visions, occasionally provoking hysterical laughter, followed immediately by wracking sobs. I had no idea what was happening to me. It was terrifying.

"There was no effort to counsel us during or after each of these sessions. There was no 'debriefing,' no explanation of what was happening or why this was being done to us. Why I did not refuse to participate after I first experienced it, I don't know. But as an adult and later as a professional medical ethicist, I recognized this lack of resistance as a function of childhood itself. Most children who are victims of parental abuse do not know how to resist. They fear rejection by parents more than they fear the abuse, it seems. The 'power differential' is huge between parents and children and the dependence on parents is virtually absolute. We were also, living in London at the time, away from our friends. My sister and I had been told not to talk about what we were doing. We were Catholics, obedient to parents, etc. Our father was a doctor, after all - it was hard to grasp that he would do harm to us or that our mother would. Children just don't think this way initially. A child's dependency usually means trusting one's parents or caregivers.

"Although each individual session was often terrifying, any lasting effects of the LSD unfolded gradually. In the weeks immediately following the final session, I experienced frequent nightmares - visions of crawling insects, horrible masks, etc. I couldn't sleep. I was afraid to shut my eyes. I became afraid of the dark. My parents were dismissive and unsympathetic. Their attitude was, in some ways, more disturbing to me than the experiments themselves because it meant that my parents had known full well that the experience would very likely be frightening - and hadn't cared.

"I discovered that my parents were dishonest and unfeeling in ways that I could not comprehend. They told my sister and me never to talk about the LSD experiences, never to disclose what had happened in London. This further ruptured our relationship with them, a relationship that was, by then, permanently damaged. I was still dependent on them, however and so was my sister.

"Two years after these experiments, during her freshman year in college, my sister suffered a nervous breakdown. I don't know the extent to which the LSD may have precipitated this. But my parents' response to what was probably a mild breakdown from which my sister could have recovered, was coercive and drastic. She had been asking questions about the LSD at this time. She was angry about it. We both were. We talked about it together, but I was afraid to confront our parents. My sister was not.

The angrier she became, the more she was 'diagnosed' as a 'psychiatric' case and the more medication she was given. To this day, my sister is heavily medicated

. She never fully recovered from that first episode.

"Our parents responded to my sister's anger in a way that frightened me further. I also felt tremendous guilt for not being able to prevent the horrors that my sister endured. Once she was 'classified' as a psychiatric patient, she was lost. Everything that was done to her in the name of 'treatment' seemed to me to be a form of ongoing abuse and torture.

"The fact that our father was a prominent, internationally known and widely respected physician - and his brother, who had introduced us to this LSD horror, was a prominent, internationally known and widely respected psychiatrist - made it impossible to expose them or go against them. Their reputations were more important to them than the health and well being of my sister.

"My own response was simply to leave home. I never trusted my parents again after the London LSD experience. I discovered many other ways in which my father and my uncle lied, covered up, dissembled and eventually threatened me, in order to keep this story from being told.

"On a positive note, the experience informed my career choices in both human rights and medical ethics, but it also made me alert to the ways in which academic medicine was - and is - corrupted by the drug industry itself and by the continuing abuse of human subjects to further the development of drugs as weapons - both for interrogation potential and also, more subtle behavior control on a massive scale. My own experience also sensitized me to the special vulnerability of children and teenagers in the medical environment.

"Even when I subsequently confronted my father with the evidence that LSD had been tested by the CIA for use as a military weapon in the 1950s and 1960s, he dismissed his participation by saying that it was an 'enlightening experience, like visiting an art gallery.' When I pointed out that this was not my experience as a child, he dismissed it, including the presumption that I must be a 'conspiracy theorist' to propose such a thing. At the age of 91, he finally admitted that it had perhaps not been a very good idea to subject my sister and me to LSD.

"Dr. Buckman and Ling were knowing participants in ongoing intelligence-based work with mind altering drugs. I 'met' Buckman in London when I was 13, but encountered him again years later at the university medical school in the United States where he was on the faculty.

"I went to see Dr. Buckman in his office. I asked him what he thought about the ethics of using children in an LSD experiment. At first, he didn't seem to realize who I was. I identified myself as one of his 'subjects' and gave him my business card as a Medical Ethicist and lawyer. He was clearly shocked, stood up, refused to talk to me and told me to leave his office. Shortly thereafter, I received a phone call from my father. His brother, the psychiatrist and colleague of Dr. Buckman, had been alerted to my impromptu visit. Subsequently, both my uncle and my father threatened me, saying they would make sure I lost my university faculty position if I disclosed anything publicly about the LSD experiments in London.

"'You will never work in bioethics again,' they said.

"

The response of all these men to the threat of disclosure indicates their lack of ethical scruples, their lack of empathy, their own pathology

. I don't know what the exact term would be, but I suspect there is a form of psychological 'doubling' at work - the sort of thing that was described in [Robert Jay] Lifton's book,

The Nazi Doctors

who were able to ignore their Hippocratic oath to 'first, do no harm,' and to inflict unimaginable horrors on their fellow human beings.

"The loss of my sister has been a life long source of sorrow for me. I attribute it to the LSD and its cover up, whether the chemicals themselves 'caused' her disintegration or not. In law this is called a 'contributing cause.' I learned that people cover up the most awful things, not just within a family but within communities, within universities, within 'polite society.' There is probably no absolute barrier that will prevent these things from being done, but they have to be exposed and called out for what they are, whenever they occur."

Dr. Bender's LSD Experiments on Children

Shortly after deciding to initiate her own LSD experiments on children, Bender attended a conference sponsored by a CIA front group, the Josiah Macy Foundation. The conference focused on LSD research and featured Dr. Harold A. Abramson as a presenter. In 1960, Abramson conducted his own LSD experiments on a group of six children ranging in age from five to 14 years of age. A few short months after the Macy Foundation conference, Dr. Bender was notified that her planned LSD experiments would be partially and surreptitiously funded by the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology (SIHE), another CIA front group then located in Forest Hills, New York. The Society, headed by James L. Monroe, a former US Air Force officer who had worked on top-secret psychological warfare and propaganda projects, oversaw about 55 top-secret experiments underwritten by the CIA. These projects involved LSD, ESP, black magic, astrology, psychological warfare, media manipulation, and other subjects. Apparently, Bender's work with children and LSD raised some concerns at the CIA's Technical Services Division (TSD). A 1961 TSD memo written to Monroe questioned the "operational benefits of Dr. Bender's work as related to children and LSD," and requested to be kept "closely appraised of the possible links between Dr. Bender's project and those being conducted under separate MK/ULTRA funding at designated prisons in New York and elsewhere."

In 1960, Dr. Bender launched her first experiments with LSD and children. They were conducted within the Children's Unit, Creedmoor State Hospital in Queens, New York. The LSD she used was supplied by Dr. Rudolph P. Bircher of the Sandoz Pharmaceutical Company. (Dr. Bircher also provided Bender with UML-491, also a Sandoz-produced product, very much like LSD but sometimes "dreamier" in effect and longer lasting.) Her initial group of young subjects consisted of 14 children diagnosed schizophrenic, all under the age of 11. (Because diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia, autism, and other disorders have changed over the decades, one cannot assess what actual conditions these children really had.) There were 11 boys and three girls, ranging in age from six to ten years old.

Jean Marie is almost seven years old. She came here nearly a year ago after her parents abandoned her to the care of an aunt who had no interest in raising her. Marie, who prefers to be called Jean, is shy, withdrawn, and distrustful of most adults she encounters. There are reports she may have been sexually molested by her uncle ... Despite her withdrawn nature she smiles easily, and enjoys the company of other children. After receiving LSD on three occasions earlier this month, Marie ceased smiling at all and lost any interest in others her age ... In the past week, she seems to have become easily agitated and has lost any interest in reading, something she seemed to very much enjoy before treatment.

In a published report on her 196 LSD experiments with 14 "autistic schizophrenic" children, Bender states she initially gave each of the children 25 mcg. of LSD "intramuscularly while under continuous observation." She writes: "The two oldest boys, over ten years, near or in early puberty, reacted with disturbed anxious behavior. The oldest and most disturbed received Amytal sodium 150 mg. intramuscularly and returned to his usual behavior." Both boys were then excluded from the experiment.

The 12 remaining children were then given injections of 25 mcg. of LSD and then days later were each given 100 mcg. of LSD once a week. Bender's report states: "Then it was increased gradually to twice and three times a week as no untoward side-effects were noticed.... Finally, it was given daily and this continued for six weeks until the time of this report."

Bender's findings and conclusions concerning her LSD experiments indicated she found the use of the drug promising. Bender reported: "In general, they [the children] were happier; their mood was 'high' in the hours following the ingestion of the drug ... they have become more spontaneously playful with balls and balloons ... their color is rosy rather than blue or pale and they have gained weight." Bender concluded: "The use of these drugs [LSD, UML-401, UML-491] ... will give us more knowledge about both the basic schizophrenic process and the defensive autism in children and also about the reaction of these dilysergic acid derivatives as central and autonomic nervous system stimulants and serotonin antagonists. Hopefully these drugs will also contribute to our efforts to find better therapeutic agents for early childhood schizophrenia."

In an article published in 1970, Dr. Bender reported on the results of LSD dosing upon "two adolescent boys who were mildly schizophrenic." She reported that the boys experienced perceptual distortions. They thought the researchers were making faces at them, that their pencils were becoming "rubbery," and one boy reported the other boy's face had turned green. The boys began to complain that they were being experimented upon. Even so, Bender and her associate continued the two male adolescents on a regimen of 150 mcg. per day, in divided doses, of LSD. While one of the boys supposedly "benefited very much," Bender reported that he later returned to the hospital as "a disturbed adult schizophrenic." The other boy kept complaining that he was being experimented upon and they stopped giving him LSD, not because of the drug's effects itself, Bender explained, but "because of the boy's attitude towards it," which she attributed to "his own psychopathology."

Dr. Bender's LSD experiments continued into the late 1960s and, during that time, continued to include multiple experiments on children with UML-401, a little known LSD-type drug provided to her by the Sandoz Company, as well as UML-491, also a Sandoz product. Bender's reports on her LSD experiments give no indication of whether the parents or legal guardians of the subject children were aware of, or consented to, the experiments. Without doubt, parents or guardians were never informed that the CIA underwrote Bender's work. Over the years, there have been multiple reports that many of Bender's subject children were either "wards of the State" or orphans, but the available literature on the experiments reveals nothing on this. The same literature makes it obvious that the children had been confined to the Creedmoor State Hospital for long periods of time and that many, if discharged, needed "suitable homes or placements in the community." There is also no evidence that any follow-up studies were conducted on any of the children experimented upon by Dr. Bender. Today, Dr. Bender is best known and highly regarded in some circles as the creator of the Bender-Gestalt Test, which measures motor skills in children.

On Bender's use of LSD on children, Dr. Leon Eisenberg said years later: "She did all sorts of things. Lauretta Bender reached success in her career long before randomized controlled trials had even been heard of. She didn't see the need for trials of drugs because she was convinced she knew what worked." (See: "A History of Autism: Conversations with the Pioneers" by Adam Feinstein, Wiley-Blanchard, 2010.) Many other physicians speaking privately were far less diplomatic in condemning Bender's LSD work, but, still today, many are reluctant to criticize her, and, remarkably, many of the aging stalwarts of the arguable "virtues" and "potential" of LSD continue to cite her work with children as groundbreaking science.

Today, nearly 60 years beyond the horrors of Dr. Bender's CIA-sponsored experiments on children, few people are aware that they were conducted. For most people, regardless of their awareness of the experiments, it is difficult to fathom how intelligent, highly educated physicians and scientists could partake in such brutal, uncaring, unethical and illegal experiments on children. What was the basis of their motivation? Was it the quest for some sort of elusive medical grail? Was it for economic gain? Or was it simply the result of a misguided search for knowledge that appeared so infinitely important that any sense of compassion and respect for human rights and dignity was cast aside in the name of a higher goal or good - a search at times so exhilarating with the sense that one is at the precipice of a momentous discovery that any semblance of respect for humankind was thrown aside?

One can easily come to any and all these conclusions simply by reading the professional papers of such scientists and researchers. Not once do any of these papers express concern for the subjects at hand or denote any pangs of conscience at violating any oaths, codes and statutes regarding patient rights, human rights or human dignity. That America's most shameful period of human experimentation, the years 1950 through to about 1979, came on the heels of the making and adoption of the Nuremberg Codes only adds to the shame and hypocrisy. Today, human experimentation is still aggressively conducted by US government-sponsored and employed physicians and scientists regardless of those codes, which came directly out of the shocking madness of the Nazi era. That government-sponsored experimentation still occurs makes a mockery of any governmental efforts, however valid, to protect people from science run amok - and a nation that uses its young, its children, for such pursuits is a nation whose commitment to human rights and democratic principles should be seriously questioned and challenged.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

No sooner does Greg mention the logical fallacy of "proof by verbosity" than Steve provides a textbook example.

Whether or not children were used in espionage, what Armstrong has yet to show is another example of the type of operation that he alleges H&L to be. That is, two unrelated boys recruited for some yet to be determined purpose that turns out to be the assignation of a President. Two boys who somehow look enough alike that their photos can be put together to create an ID. Not only that, but the plotters knew that the boys would not grow dissimilar in appearance as they grew older. I maintain that no such operation has ever existed.

[David Josephs]

No sooner does Greg mention the logical fallacy of "proof by verbosity" than Steve provides a textbook example.

Whether or not children were used in espionage, what Armstrong has yet to show is another example of the type of operation that he alleges H&L to be. That is, two unrelated boys recruited for some yet to be determined purpose that turns out to be the assignation of a President. Two boys who somehow look enough alike that their photos can be put together to create an ID. Not only that, but the plotters knew that the boys would not grow dissimilar in appearance as they grew older. I maintain that no such operation has ever existed.

and yet another raising of the bar Tracy? Where would one begin to accumulate the kind of data made available about Oswald's life - for no apparent reason other than to bury in a mountain who Oswald was and was involved in. ??

the purpose of this program having nothing to do with the JFK assassination at all. An operation involving decades and cold war spies ... and yet from what you've read along the way, the CIA is not capable of any of a hundred things we cannot fathom their planning and implementation. ?

My imagination is not so limited. And if I can imagine it, what's to say those whose job it was/is to think of these plans all the time would not consider an unassailable history for a spy to accomplish whatever was necessary. If Lee remained as be believe,he was the recruited super spy not Harvey... Harvey, in my opinion, was a refugee, eastern Europe, who the CIA thought it could use to keep an eye on other commies in this or other countries. He would grow to infiltrate these groups and report back to the FBI or whoever needed the info... he was doing his new country a valuable service.

the record of those who saw the little Harvey was pretty consistent with his attitude as a trouble maker and wise ass... always with a "I know something you don't" smirk....

The concept of looking at every available resource is something I believe Angleton mastered at and was the architect of this program.

Are there more? I would guess so...

deep cover is something I can't fully comprehend... especially to get assets against such a closed society as Russia.

how about you? you think you know enough of the world of spycraft to state 100% that this was not only possible but done and one of the reasons a cover and switch to lone nut was so necessary. again.. in my opinion from what I've learned so far...

You guys could be right... but I've seen so very little which undoes the basic premise or the evidence left behind...

If it is something else, no one has offered a comprehensive explanation - starting with the DoD and Taiwan...