Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sandy Larsen]

22 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Then there was the statements of both Lovelady and Shelly that they left the steps and immediately walked over to a location on the divider/island near the street light pole and stood there before moving down towards the RR Yard fence.

Lovelady and Shelley also went down to where Kennedy's limo was when he was shot. They were there for about 5 minutes, according to Lovelady I believe.

[Thomas Graves]

21 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Lovelady and Shelley also went down to where Kennedy's limo was when he was shot. They were there for about 5 minutes, according to Lovelady I believe.

Dear Sandy,

If that's the case, then they should have been caught on Couch / Darnell film doing that.

--  Tommy

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Okay, Bill.  

Then you and I disagree.  The plaid shirt Lovelady was photographed wearing years after the assassination was probably a close approximation of, but not the same one as, the one he was wearing on 11/22/63.  I'm convinced that that's Lovelady and Shelley walking / running down (and in Shelly's case - across) Elm Street Extension in Couch. Haven't you ever wondered why neither of them are visible on the steps in Couch / Darnell?  You know, with all that excitement going on around them and down on the Grassy Knoll area?  Or do you think they ducked inside the TSBD to get a Cokie-Cola or a (gasp) Dr. Pepper?

Thanks for the explication.

-- Tommy

 

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.

 

Once again Ball goes over with Shelly the timing of he and Lovelady crossing the street ..........

Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,
Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?
Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards.

 

Then Shelly was asked about how long they were in the RR Yard .....

Mr. BALL - How long would you say?
Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you trot or run back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less.
Mr. BALL - Then you went into the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

 

Again Mr. Ball asked Molina about seeing Truly enter the building ....

Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.

 

Gloria Calgary had told Lovelady and Shelly about seeing blood when the shots were fired.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
 

Shelly and Lovelady left the steps soon after the shots had been fired and after a woman soon ran towards them saying she saw blood that confirmed someone in the car had been hit during the shooting. These things all happened before in the moments before Couch got his camera turned on. When Couch turns on his camera - Baker's cycle is parked at the curb just to right and ahead of the car in front of the Couch's car. That car has its passenger door open and it closes as Baker has left the island and races towards the TSBD.

Going back to what Officer Baker had said in his testimony - he got off his cycle and paused momentarily to look down the street to see what was happening in that direction. The crowd was moving about him, so he then started for the building that he had seen the pigeons fly from before he parked his cycle. As Baker is almost to the the curb in front of the steps - the second press car that was stopped in the street ahead of Couch's car starts in motion. The press car ahead of Couch's car seems to just start in motion as Darnell turns off his camera. As Baker runs past Truly, Roy immediately turn toward Officer Baker and according to the witnesses I have quoted - Truly followed Baker up the steps and into the TSBD.

Watch the films and see if I have it right.

aniCOUCHandDARNELLsynched_gerda.bmp

Edited December 17, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Okay, Bill.  

Then you and I disagree.  The plaid shirt Lovelady was photographed wearing years after the assassination was probably a close approximation of, but not the same one as, the one he was wearing on 11/22/63. 

How so is that not the same shirt Lovelady wore at the time of the shooting. Looks the same to me and more importantly the same length.

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

"... a woman ran towards [Shelley and Lovelady] saying she saw blood that confirmed someone in the car had been hit during the shooting."

I believe that woman to be the "Running Woman," in Couch / Darnell, who, since she is running fast and in the opposite direction from everyone else, must have seen something that traumatized her.  It's not unreasonable to assume that she shouted out something like, "They've killed the President!" as she ran past "my" Shelley and Lovelady on Elm Street Extension.  Note how "Shelly" starts crossing over to the "island" immediately after that, and how "Lovelady" starts running toward the parking lot / railway yard at the same time.  Interesting timing, no?

I'm not gonna argue with you about all this, Bill.  You can find my older posts on the subject on several threads,

--  Tommy

PS  Why weren't "your" S & L caught in anyone's photos or films (of Elm Street or the Grassy Knoll, especially) until Hughes and Martin finally "caught" one of them - Lovelady - smoking on the front steps many minutes after the assassination?

Edited December 17, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Sandy,

If that's the case, then they should have been caught on Couch / Darnell film doing that.

--  Tommy

Are you sure? I mean, we don't know in what order they went to the different places. And we don't know how long they spent, except for the five minutes down by where JFK's limo had been.

But I'll look for them whenever I watch one of the films.

[Thomas Graves]

8 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Are you sure? I mean, we don't know in what order they went to the different places. And we don't know how long they spent, except for the five minutes down by where JFK's limo had been.

But I'll look for them whenever I watch one of the films.

Dear Sandy,

Let me know how that works out.

LOL

--  Tommy

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

I believe that woman to be the "Running Woman," in Couch / Darnell, who, since she is running fast and in the opposite direction from everyone else, must have seen something that traumatized her.  It's not unreasonable to assume that she shouted out something like, "They've killed the President!" as she ran past "my" Shelley and Lovelady on Elm Street Extension.  Note how "Shelly" starts crossing over to the "island" immediately after that, and how "Lovelady" starts running toward the parking lot / railway yard at the same time.  Interesting timing, no?

I'm not gonna argue with you about all this, Bill.  You can find my older posts on the subject on several threads,

--  Tommy

PS  Why weren't "your" S & L caught in anyone's photos or films (of Elm Street or the Grassy Knoll, especially) until Hughes and Martin finally "caught" one of them - Lovelady - smoking on the front steps many minutes after the assassination?

 

Maybe they were caught in someone's cameras eye - I am certain I have never seen every photo or film taken post assassination.

I can follow this ...

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.

 

Once again Ball goes over with Shelly the timing of he and Lovelady crossing the street ..........

Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,
Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?
Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards.

 

Then Shelly was asked about how long they were in the RR Yard .....

Mr. BALL - How long would you say?
Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you trot or run back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less.
Mr. BALL - Then you went into the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

 

Again Mr. Ball asked Molina about seeing Truly enter the building ....

Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.

 

Gloria Calgary had told Lovelady and Shelly about seeing blood when the shots were fired.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
 

Shelly and Lovelady left the steps soon after the shots had been fired and after a woman soon ran towards them saying she saw blood that confirmed someone in the car had been hit during the shooting. These things all happened before in the moments before Couch got his camera turned on. When Couch turns on his camera - Baker's cycle is parked at the curb just to right and ahead of the car in front of the Couch's car. That car has its passenger door open and it closes as Baker has left the island and races towards the TSBD.

Going back to what Officer Baker had said in his testimony - he got off his cycle and paused momentarily to look down the street to see what was happening in that direction. The crowd was moving about him, so he then started for the building that he had seen the pigeons fly from before he parked his cycle. As Baker is almost to the the curb in front of the steps - the second press car that was stopped in the street ahead of Couch's car starts in motion. The press car ahead of Couch's car seems to just start in motion as Darnell turns off his camera. As Baker runs past Truly, Roy immediately turn toward Officer Baker and according to the witnesses I have quoted - Truly followed Baker up the steps and into the TSBD.

Watch the films and see if I have it right.

aniCOUCHandDARNELLsynched_gerda.bmp

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

 

Maybe they were caught in someone's cameras eye - I am certain I have never seen every photo or film taken post assassination.

I can follow this ...

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - It dead ends?
Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets.
Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.

 

Once again Ball goes over with Shelly the timing of he and Lovelady crossing the street ..........

Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.
Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr. BALL - How long?
Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two.
Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,
Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That's about what distance?
Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards.

 

Then Shelly was asked about how long they were in the RR Yard .....

Mr. BALL - How long would you say?
Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you trot or run back to the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less.
Mr. BALL - Then you went into the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

 

Again Mr. Ball asked Molina about seeing Truly enter the building ....

Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.

 

Gloria Calgary had told Lovelady and Shelly about seeing blood when the shots were fired.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
 

Shelly and Lovelady left the steps soon after the shots had been fired and after a woman soon ran towards them saying she saw blood that confirmed someone in the car had been hit during the shooting. These things all happened before in the moments before Couch got his camera turned on. When Couch turns on his camera - Baker's cycle is parked at the curb just to right and ahead of the car in front of the Couch's car. That car has its passenger door open and it closes as Baker has left the island and races towards the TSBD.

Going back to what Officer Baker had said in his testimony - he got off his cycle and paused momentarily to look down the street to see what was happening in that direction. The crowd was moving about him, so he then started for the building that he had seen the pigeons fly from before he parked his cycle. As Baker is almost to the the curb in front of the steps - the second press car that was stopped in the street ahead of Couch's car starts in motion. The press car ahead of Couch's car seems to just start in motion as Darnell turns off his camera. As Baker runs past Truly, Roy immediately turn toward Officer Baker and according to the witnesses I have quoted - Truly followed Baker up the steps and into the TSBD.

Watch the films and see if I have it right.

aniCOUCHandDARNELLsynched_gerda.bmp

 

 

Dear Bill,

Probably half-truths, at best.

--  Tommy

[Bill Miller]

deleted

Edited December 17, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

7 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Bill,

Probably half-truths, at best.

--  Tommy

Thomas,

What they are is human beings independently recalling an event from when they were in a heightened state of shock and confusion. Thirty seconds to one person may have only seemed like 10 seconds to another with neither one being accurate, so estimates of time are understandably unreliable in some cases. However, the order of the events seem to be amazingly consistent among these witnesses. Those things are as follows:

1 - shots were heard

2 - Shelly and Lovelady leave the steps after Calgary runs back to the steps and relays what she has just witnessed.

3 - Patrolman Baker pulls his cycle to the curb and dismounts

4 - Roy Truly left his position next to Mr. Campbell 10 to 20 feet into the intersection of Elm Street and moved up close to the TSBD where he is then seen in the Darnell film as Baker runs past him.

- the Couch and Darnell films show Patrolman Baker running for the TSBD and passing within a few feet of Roy Truly who immediately turns towards Baker where witnesses say he went up the steps following the police officer. At the time of Baker's dash - neither Shelly nor Lovelady can be seen on the steps because they had already left them by then.

5- The things is - the assassination films support these witnesses in that area. Whether it be 15 steps or 25 steps while moving away from the TSBD steps - Shelly and Lovelady saw truly run after Baker. Sanders saw Truly run after Baker. While Molina didn't recall seeing Baker - but he remembered Truly running up the steps and estimating that to have happened around 30secs after the shooting. And until I mentioned the press cars being stopped on the street as Baker dashed towards the TSBT - I would bet that some of the people here didn't even notice it. Certainly not heard it mentioned in the timing of Baker's dash..

It really doesn't matter to me if it was 10 secs, 30secs, or 45 secs to a minute because the sequence of the events are in these witnesses recollections and appear to be generally consistent. Al Carrier - Police Officer who posted on Lancer and believed there was a conspiracy to kill JFK - used to share that when he taught a class ... he would set up a situation where he had someone come running through the classroom and then ask the students immediately afterwards to write down what they had observed about this person. The purpose of the exercise was to demonstrate that while only one person came through the room - there will be some variances between what some witnesses described the man to look like from his features to the clothing he was wearing. I bet there is not a person here who hasn't had a moment in their life when they were with someone and recalled a timing issue differently to an event that you both were present for. Both are telling the truth with each saying 'I thought is was "longer than that" or "I thought it was not that long".' That kind of thing does not automatically equate to someone lying in my view. The evidence seen of the camera cars stopped in the street with the street ahead of them void of traffic demonstrates there was ample time for a Gloria Calgary to see the President's head explode and then turn to run back the short distance to the TSBD steps and to tell Lovelady and Shelly what she had just witnessed.

In the meantime Officer Baker drives his motorcycle onto Elm and parks it while pausing to assess the street up ahead and to notice some people on the ground and to be aware there are people crowding around on the little divider/island. In the meantime Lovelady and Shelly have crossed over to that island and end up looking back and seeing the white helmeted police officer dash across the Elm side street and up to the steps. Molina, still on the steps and Lovelady and Shelly from divider on the other side of the street see the Baker run up the steps. One more thing to add here ... I am trying to remember the name of a woman that said that she followed behind Truly up the steps. I think she is important because as Officer Baker runs past Truly - Roy is still facing in the direction of a woman running towards him just as he turns in the direction of the steps. Does anyone's name come to mind?

First floor worker Eddie Piper said the first people he was on the first floor following the shots was Truly and Baker coming in the door to the building.

Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor?
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?

Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow---I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.
Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed?

 

Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.
Mr. BALL. A police officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on?
Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.
Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.
 

Edited December 17, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

On 12/17/2016 at 1:51 AM, Bill Miller said:

 

[...]

1 - shots were heard

2 - Shelly and Lovelady leave the steps after Calgary runs back to the steps and relays what she has just witnessed.

3 - Patrolman Baker pulls his cycle to the curb and dismounts

 

 

Dear Bill,

A few years ago, someone who is held in high esteem on this forum (Robin Unger?, Chris Davidson?) determined that Marion Baker reached the steps about 20 seconds after the final shot, iirc.  Now, if what that member said is true (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), then "your" Shelley and Lovelady should, according to their testimony (which you seem to swallow hook line and sinker), be visible on the steps in Couch / Darnell, waiting for Gloria Calvery to run up to them and tell them that Kennedy had been shot.

Gloria Calvery must have been fairly close to the limousine (because she evidently saw JFK get shot), and close enough to the TSBD to be able to reach it about 20 seconds later.  (Or do you think she started running away right after the "throat shot," aka Altgens 6, giving her another seven seconds or so?)

When we look at all of these things "taken together," we encounter a contradiction of major proportions, IMHO.

Never mind the fact that neither Shelly nor Lovelady are to be seen in Couch / Darnell, you know, waiting for Calvery to run up to them.

--  Tommy

Edited December 18, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-nolan-lovelady-and-bill-shelly-did-leave-the-steps-almost-immediately-after-the-shots-were-fired/

 

[Bill Miller]

12 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Bill,

A few years ago, someone who is held in high esteem on this forum (Robin Unger?, Chris Davidson?) determined that Marion Baker reached the steps about 20 seconds after the final shot, iirc.  Now, if what that photographic expert said is true (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), then "your" Shelley and Lovelady should, according to their testimony (which you seem to swallow hook line and sinker), be visible on the steps in Couch / Darnell, waiting for Gloria Calvery to run up to them and tell them that Kennedy had been shot.

(But they aren't there.)

All of which means that Calvery must have been fairly close to the limousine (because she evidently saw JFK get shot), and close enough to the TSBD to be able to reach it about 20 seconds later.

Which is a contradiction of major proportions, IMHO.

--  Tommy

 

I also hold Robin and Chris in high regard as researchers of the assassination (not sure that makes them anymore of a photo expert as I am) and I would be most interested in how they time stamped Bakers run against the time of the shooting as I was quite active back in the days that cross referencing films and photos was going on. And while I don't want to take away from the high esteem they deserve - I will remind you that there are those who hold Fetzer in high esteem and yet Moorman was not in the street when she took her famous Polaroid .... just addressing that "high esteem" is not relevant here.

Now let me point out a few things that I considered that you have not even mentioned. To start with, I do not have to rely on the premise that Calvery 'must have been pretty close to the limousine' when JFK was hit as she is the third woman to the left of the Stemmons Freeway Sign in the Zapruder film. So seeing blood as she put it didn't call for her being close because Bill Newman who was further away than she was saw blood as soon as the shooting started. At that time - Officer Baker was still on Houston Street. 

So let us assume for arguments sake that Lovelady and Shelly were both independently wrong as to where they were located in the Plaza when they saw Baker's run from the divider to the front of the TSBD, but they did say that they looked back to see Truly and Baker going up the steps, and the camera doesn't lie as those men were not on the steps when Baker made it to the other side of the street, so where were they? Perhaps they were where they said they were, so now its all down a timing problem with them meeting Calvery based on what you have said. I felt the same way, but I read that Calvery came running back up to the depository building. So let us consider that Calvery did run from her position on Elm Street to the steps of the TSBD. Using Patrolman Baker as a time-clock - it took him around 2 to 2.5 seconds to cross the street. During that run there is a woman (wearing a light colored top and dark skirt) seen in Darnell's film that is running towards Truly's location who appears to be running at a steeper angle to the steps than Baker and every bit as fast as Baker, if not slightly faster. Just counting the time off in my head has Baker crossing the Elm Street extension in 3 seconds. Calvery ran from a position between the two roadway signs (Stemmons and Thorton) to the steps. Once there she said, 'They shot the President!' - reply: 'Are you certain?' - 'I saw the blood ....!' It took 10 seconds from the time of the kill shot to JFK before the limo went through the underpass. That is about the time needed to run from Calvery's location to the TSBD steps. A few more seconds to have the quick exchange before Shelly and Lovelady trot over to the divider on the other side of the street where they then look back and see Patrolman Baker and Truly going up the steps.In the end - there was plenty of time for Calvery to run to the steps - have a quick exchange that the president had been shot - and Lovelady and Shelly to have reached the island as Baker and truly were going up the steps to the TSBD.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

24 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

[Calvery] is the third woman to the left of the Stemmons Freeway Sign in the Zapruder film.

Dear Bill,

That woman (who I agree is probably Gloria Calvery) was captured on film after the assassination, standing on the grass (iirc) and walking up the Elm Street sidewalk with the two gals who were with her by the Stemmon's sign.  So if it was Calvery, she started running only during the final part of her journey to the TSBD.

The problem remains:  If Shelley and Lovelady stayed on the steps until she got there, why aren't they visible in Couch / Darnell some 20 - 25 seconds after the assassination?

--  Tommy

 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Thomas Graves