Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Andrej Stancak]

2 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Thanks for the response and explanation, but Lovelady's shirt was not that long ... in my view. Is it me or does the back of it appear to go far down on his rump?

Bill:

It is difficult to determine the exact length of Lovelady's shirt in Couch film because of poor signal in the area of Lovelady's buttocks. I have looked in detail on every possible picture or film frame to somehow understand the shapes and details of Lovelady's shirt as I needed Lovelady's figure for my 3D reconstruction of Wiegman's scene. I have not found any puzzle here. Lovelady wore a plaid, long-sleeved shirt, partly unbuttoned (with a slight asymmetry due to a larger white area corresponding to his white T-shirt on the left side), and sleeve collars also unbuttoned. 

 

[Guest]

Bill did you read my reply at the bottom of the previous page?

Edited December 19, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Andrej Stancak]

On 12/16/2016 at 0:10 AM, Bill Miller said:

Please ignore this message, I apparently have to write something else I cannot post a new message.

[Bill Miller]

2 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

On 12/15/2016 at 6:10 PM, Bill Miller said:

Please ignore this message, I apparently have to write something else I cannot post a new message.

I don't recall saying what is written in that quote. I am stumped over that one.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Bill:

I have difficulty to understand where are you heading with your posts. You clearly are well versed in Warren Commission report. However, I am not sure what is the point behind your repeated questioning of different points. The thread or question whether Baker did or did not run straight into the Depository building is only a spin-off of the main problem: Baker passed Oswald whilst Oswald was either still in the doorway or in the vestibule of the first floor (more likely). There is no doubt that Baker eventually reached the first floor, and ascended through the floors using back stairwell. It does not matter if he first ran to the east corner of the building and returned right away to the main steps or if he ran straight.The problem is that Baker had encountered Oswald at a place which exonerated Oswald as the assassin. As Oswald was to be framed, it was necessary to move this encounter to the second floor. By moving their encounter from the first to the second floor, small but telling mistakes have been committed (and revealed in this thread). Baker was couched in what to testify but on few occasions he failed to keep with the script. The bottle of Coke was a  neuralgic problem till the end. 

 

[Bill Miller]

16 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Bill did you read my reply at the bottom of the previous page?

Of course - I don't see JFK's murder and the evidence as a game, so I didn't respond. I also don't believe Shelley and Lovelady "lied" because that implied to purposely deceive or fabricate and I cannot see any motivation for either man to have done that. I do believe that if the two figures in Darnell are these two men, then I suspect they saw and maybe heard Gloria Calvery as she was approaching and they started moving in her direction. I say this because she seems to turn towards them as she is passing by and once she does this they hurry their pace up.

[Bill Miller]

13 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

I have difficulty to understand where are you heading with your posts. You clearly are well versed in Warren Commission report. However, I am not sure what is the point behind your repeated questioning of different points. The thread or question whether Baker did or did not run straight into the Depository building is only a spin-off of the main problem: Baker passed Oswald whilst Oswald was either still in the doorway or in the vestibule of the first floor (more likely). There is no doubt that Baker eventually reached the first floor, and ascended through the floors using back stairwell. It does not matter if he first ran to the east corner of the building and returned right away to the main steps or if he ran straight.The problem is that Baker had encountered Oswald at a place which exonerated Oswald as the assassin. As Oswald was to be framed, it was necessary to move this encounter to the second floor. By moving their encounter from the first to the second floor, small but telling mistakes have been committed (and revealed in this thread). Baker was couched in what to testify but on few occasions he failed to keep with the script. The bottle of Coke was a  neuralgic problem till the end. 

 

I do not believe that people who certainly knew what Oswald looked like by the end of that day and those who worked with him who already knew what he looked like and was moving around when the so-called prayer man was in the corner near the door .... that all these people conspired to not tell anymore that Lee was standing right there with everyone. 

[Andrej Stancak]

Bill:

some people in the doorway either did not see Prayer Man (e.g., people at lower steps) or they did see him and were forced not to tell. Please consider Frazier: he was less than 3 feet away from this person and until today he did not disclose who the person was. And he always spoke kindly about Lee Harvey Oswald. However, he had a problem with curtain rods - do you believe Frazier's testimony about curtain rods? I do not, there were no curtain rods carried by Oswald on Friday morning. Frazier was close to be charged for assisting in the murder of President Kennedy, and it was not that difficult to convince him what he had seen and what not. Lovelady? He had a criminal history and the FBI (and the TSBD) had a firm grip over him. He actually admitted in his HSCA interview that there might be somebody behind him whom he would not know who he was. Shelley: he himself was probably an intelligence asset. Two ladies standing on the top landing, Paula Saunders and Sarah Stanton: we only have their briefest possible FBI testimonies with no possibility to ask further questions. They were not asked to testify under the oath.

People were scared to death to testify against the official version which started to form just some 2-3 hours afrer the assassination, and later they also learned about what happened to a number of witnesses. And so, I am not surprised that no one admitted seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the doorway. However, no one has also told who Prayer Man was. Who do you think he was if not Lee Harvey Oswald?

 

   

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

"Anyone who is anyone .... "  that is not an argument, but a rather arrogant supplement for facts. No it is not actually to me it means that anyone who has gone through this stuff (and by the looks of it you still have not) would understand what is being talked about here, By the way - how long did it take you to put the video together because it sounded like when you show the Newman's laying on the ground over their kids at the 10:12 mark that you called them what sounds like 'The Wiegmans'. How much time did you guys spend on making sure that you referenced the right people in your video?The Newmans correct, that's my foul up. Thanks for bringing that to light.

You said that Shelley and Lovelady stayed up on the steps for about three minutes. I did not You knew this was a misstatement of fact when you read it because the following information was given by Bill Shelley a short while latter in his questioning about when he saw Baker and Truly going up the steps towards the entrance to the building

All this I have already addressed. Bill Shelley's first DPD statement is a 180 from the stuff below

Time to study the Darnell film Bill, find  us Shelley and Lovelady ok?

... Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.

Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.

Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,
 

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

 Now back to this ... explain how Lovelady's plaid shirt hangs so far down in the back than it does in the front?

Completely debunked by me.

 

 

See above in black and bold

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Of course - I don't see JFK's murder and the evidence as a game, so I didn't respond. I also don't believe Shelley and Lovelady "lied" because that implied to purposely deceive or fabricate and I cannot see any motivation for either man to have done that. I do believe that if the two figures in Darnell are these two men, then I suspect they saw and maybe heard Gloria Calvery as she was approaching and they started moving in her direction. I say this because she seems to turn towards them as she is passing by and once she does this they hurry their pace up.

 

Is no game Bill I debunked your long shirt in the back assertion, gimme some credit!.....:)

I suggest you to investigate Shelley and Lovelady's horse manure in regards their presence during and after.

Andrej has already posted plenty and so have I.

The proof counts not beliefs Bill.

But your refusal to acknowledge is something else.....I get the feeling you are not here to debate the evidence at all, since you only post half researched stuff, you are not really up to date with this thread, but decided to wade in regardless, which is ......interesting.

Oh and it isn't Darnell, it is Couch btw

Gosh even in that fuzzy gif it shows up as a checkered shirt.

It sure was a great find by Gerda Dunckel.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Chris Davidson]

17 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

The recreation was shot with a 16mm camera (24fps) by Underwood.

The two gentlemen on the stairs are approx two seconds apart, so someone starting at the landing, walking down the stairs and someone near the middle step will end up approx where you see them after (86 progressive frames/5.6seconds). 

How far West would they end up in 15-20 seconds?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWlo5Q3FxdDRaU1U/view?usp=sharing

Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go 

Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. 

Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? 

Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? 

Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards. 

Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before 

you saw Truly go in? 

Mr. MOLINA. No. 

 

 

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? 

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. 

Mr. BALL - How many steps? 

Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25. 

Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? 

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. 

 

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

 

 

The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.

 

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

 

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

 

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

 

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

 

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to

Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

 

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

 

This total = approx 30 seconds.

 

Not exact but:

 

The above testimony of Lovelady and Molina appears to support the film syncs.

 

Shelley does not.

 

imo

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

Take a real close look at this image!

Now the blackness supposedly shows that Lovelady's shirt was longer down at the back than in the front. YES?

Really? Take another look!!!

Still don't see it?

Now look inside the red circle, that blackness goes further to the right than Lovelady does it not?

Could it be that this is an object/person in front of Lovelady?

Well why don't we have a look at Gerda's GIF especially the first half a dozen or so frames where Lovelady is the most visible....

The so called shirt in conjunction with the dark object changes shape every damn frame and the black object even stays behind while Lovelady walks on with Shelley.

Indeed James, case closed.

 

Lovelady and Shelley both lied in their WC testimony about them staying behind on the steps and seeing Vicky Adams on the first floor. FACT

Both their first statements paint a very different picture. FACT

Calvery was nowhere near the steps encountered by Shelley, nor Lovelady FACT

 

Game, set and match!

 

Bart,

While I agree with you that the evidence for 2nd-floor-encounter-fabrication is highly compelling, I am less convinced about the the two walking down Elm extension being  Shelley and Lovelady.

I believe that Bill has a good point about the length of alleged Lovelady's shirt looking too long. It also looks oversized.

In addition, in some frames I've seen taken from the film, it appears that alleged Shelley's jacket has a pattern to it. Are there any other photos of him wearing a jacket that day? Do they show a pattern?

[Chris Newton]

Not really trying to throw a wrench but... I also have many years experience digitizing and encoding video and my first impression when examining this capture is that the same "pattern" is faintly visible on both subjects (and maybe the background) and seems more to be a by-product of the encoding process. i.e. a digital anomaly.

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

Is no game Bill I debunked your long shirt in the back assertion, gimme some credit!.....:)

I suggest you to investigate Shelley and Lovelady's horse manure in regards their presence during and after.

Andrej has already posted plenty and so have I.

The proof counts not beliefs Bill.

You are aware are you not that there were others in and around the plaza that wore a red plaid shirt that day - right? I had been working behind the scenes with three other well respected researchers trying to find a way to better show if that was Lovelady or not, so I started with premise that the possibility was there. As far as the plaid nonsense circumstantial and was not a strong argument in favor if it being Billy Lovelady. Their meeting with Calvery would be to us, but we had to first find her as too may people have believed her to be the woman near the Stemmons Freeway sign and with her hanging out on the near the divider and pergola post shooting - it gave the appearance that Shelley and Lovelady conspired to invent a story of seeing Gloria Calvery immediately after the shooting. The woman running towards the TSBD was the most likely candidate for Calvery once we had seen she was very light complected and was caught in Darnell's film running to towards the steps. Her obituary write-up and how she chased behind the policeman was a big plus. Some people were quick to make conspirators out of both Lovelady and Shelley in my view and failed them by not considering that under moments of extreme stress and shock there is seldom and clear cut and dry recollection of such an event as this was. The slowing of Calgary as she approached the two you believed to be Shelley and Lovelady seemed reasonable and only 1 - 1.5 seconds of her arriving at the steps. And like I have said before - no single witness knew immediately after the shooting who was taking film and photos and from where. So Shelley and Lovelady making up seeing or speaking to a particular witness had no real motive in my view. As far as definitive evidence of that being Shelley and Lovelady - its not even if most probable.

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

Not really trying to throw a wrench but... I also have many years experience digitizing and encoding video and my first impression when examining this capture is that the same "pattern" is faintly visible on both subjects (and maybe the background) and seems more to be a by-product of the encoding process. i.e. a digital anomaly.

Chris, that is a good point and was something some of us had been discussing behind the scenes this past week. Sandy had mentioned it too on the forum. We intend to make a comparison of the pattern on the alleged Lovelady to that of his shirt in i. Someone even asked if Shelley had a plaid design in his suit coat, so we checked and found none in the clear photos of Shelley.