Gene Kelly Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Sorry if I set you guys off... not my intent. Also, I'm just honestly sharing my thoughts about Mr. Shelley. Unfortunately, most everything involves speculation in this case, so I'm reacting to what I see in a photo. We sometimes have strong impressions solely based on a facial expression or body language ... just the way someone "looks" without knowing anything factual. That's how Shelley lands on me. His later interview has some interesting implications, and raises my interest accordingly. His quick walk to the railroad yards (with Lovelady) has the same effect. I'd prefer we not hone-in on my use of the word "escape" (poor choice on my part). I'm simply offering that - if Shelley and/or his colleagues are guilty of collaboration of some sorts - what better way to leave the premises than under a police accompaniment (softer choice of words there). However, in the spirit of this excellent thread, the identity of PM (and what Oswald was doing inside and outside of TSBD, before/during/after) somehow involves Shelley, Lovelady and Arce. G. Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Kelly Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Gene, I think you will find that Oswald worked as an "order filler" pulling books. My recollection of hos work clipboard is that he was supposed to be working at pulling books to fill shipments on Nov. 22. That would be a job that would take him across all the upper floors where the books were stacked on a regular basis. I'd also assume it would take him down to shipping after he had done his pulls. Actually that would probably be a more "flexible" job than working on the flooring as he would be moving around and up and down routinely rather than being stuck in one area working on the floor. As to the watches, I'm right handed but always wore my watch on the "wrong" hand - after being clumsy enough to break a couple of glass watch crystals... -- Larry Larry: I know Oswald wasn't at TSBD very long, but I wonder if Shelley ever did any performance appraisals of his subordinate? FWIW, I felt the same way when David posed the watch question... I'm right-handed but usually wear the watch on my right wrist. Its more to do with dressing in the morning than function... but I sometimes switch it later in the day, if the strap is too tight or my hand is tired from keyboarding/writing. Good observation of PM though, and interesting question. I'm showing my ignorance of the case, but was Oswald right-handed? Gene Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 PS A couple of friendly suggestions: Try "proofreading" your posts before and after you post them. For example, "How can possible (sic) know..." PPS, I never said anything negative about your "spelling." In fact, your spelling is exemplary. Whatever you say Tommy.... "NEVER !!" The first quote was your FIRST attempt at telling me how I should post... after I told Gene my reply was aimed at your "WHY oh WHY" mind-reading questions... I wrote: Completely Agree Gene... I was directing my comments mostly to Tommy who likes to ask WHY questions that appear to me as rhetorical where only speculative answers are possible.... No wonder you can't follow my content... you can't even remember or follow your own...... Make up your mind already Tommy - you DON'T READ my posts, yet you do and apparently with a fine tooth comb hoping to find spelling, syntax and grammatical mistakes instead of attempting to understand the CONTENT.. and then you emphatically tell me you NEVER posted something ABOUT MY POSTS when just scrolling up the page proves you wrong... Take a breath already, regroup and take a long look at what YOU DO, what YOU POST, instead of playing the forum's post nazi... and please, Pu-LEASE don't suffer my posts any longer... All you need to is NOT read them as you say you already don't... and move on... ====== You have been wrong about this at every single turn... WRONG to tell me how to post, WRONG about the CONTENT you post and edit and repost and edit, ad infinitum and WRONG about what you claim you don't read.... Maybe go try a different thread and bother someone else about how they post... I remember my friend Bernice here used to use CAPS in her posts from time to time... SO WHAT!... her content was/is always interesting and contributory to the topic... your priorities are WHACK "Bro".... time to get a grip. ==================================================================================== Gene and everyone... I've tried to stay on topic and repeatedly asked Tommy here to stay on track and comment on the questions being asked... That does not appear possible... I don't know who PM is yet... and I agree Gene, that Shelley at the very least is aware of TSBD activity and backstories not readily apparent to others. Gene, Do you think SUIT&TIEman is Shelley? and do you think we should see WESLEY in Altgens or any other view of the doorway? Thanks DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Gene, Thanks for interjecting a voice of reason. You do understand that Shelley and Arce didn't walk to the railway yard, don't you, but that Shelley and Lovelady did, right? And that Bonnie Ray Williams accompanied Shelley and Arce to the police station in the police car, some seven blocks away? --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) David, I can't copy and paste or reply directly to imbedded posts on my laptop, so I'll type here the pertinent quote that you just re-posted, above. "PS A couple of friendly suggestions: Try proofreading your posts both before and after you post them. For example, 'How can possible (sic) know...' " David, the reason I put the "(sic)" in there was not to point out the minor misspelling of the word "possibly" as "possible," but the fact that you left out a word, in this case possibly the pronoun "you." I actually deliberated on where exactly to put the "(sic)". Before the word "possible" or after it? LOL I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that evidently you still haven't noticed that you left an important word out. To not do that would be to accuse you of trying to "minimize," "spin," and "turn the tables." (Are you an attorney? LOL) My whole point has been that the unintentional leaving out words is more serious than any (minor) spelling problem. You, in your great haste, tend to leave out words when you're typing your longish posts. That's not a "spelling problem." You keep complaining that am a "spelling nazi," etc, but I never said you'd made a spelling mistake. If you want to call all grammar and syntax mistakes, including word omissions, "spellin' mistakes," that's fine with me. But you seem much too highly educated to do that. --Tommy Edited February 14, 2014 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Thanks again Emily... From not reading my posts you sure are able to come up with some interesting comments about them... And yet, lo and behold, you knew EXACTLY what I was trying to say... without all the words Unfortunately, we can't say the same about your posts - even WITH all the words in the right places... until you've posted them, reviewed them, been asked about them and finally correct them.... a few times. You talking about "haste" ... amusing, Bro.... ======= So how about we try this one last time... Please point to ANY image of Wesley in DP prior to the Darnell image... (we are tyring to authenticate the information provided about his location) Where is Shelley - do YOU think he's SUIT&TIEman or not? I happen to think that's Shelley given the few people who were wearing a suit and tie AND claimed to be at the top of those stairs (If I'm wrong, why couldn't SHELLEY be PM?) or LOVELADY in the Darnell footage.... do you have anything to add as to where he is? (people come and go, just not PM) and don't you find it a bit interesting that this person barely moves at all... arms remain in the same position, the same white spot, .... Does that tell YOU anything? See Thomas, questions which designed to start a discussion about what we KNOW or think and the evidence to support it... TRY it some time... much more productive a pursuit than spell/grammar checker, or trying to read the minds of the players with "why did he do this or that..." questions HOW are we suposed to know what is going on in the mind of a person you point to in a photo? BTW, No hard feeling whatsoever Tommy.... I hope you understand that... Telling others how to do anything when your own house is not in order stuck me oddly and I reacted. You're not anyone's mommy here Tommy.... and while some of my longer posts can be hard to follow.. this was not the case here... you remain the ONLY person to approach posting and posters like that I hope you can see it's not your place to police us over minutia... but to have an interchange of ideas when CONTENT is misleading, incorrect, sparks thought or is perfectly in line with your thinking, etc, etc,... Be well... DJ and yes, I spelled words wrong on purpose so you could feel good about catching them... Edited February 14, 2014 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) David, I can't copy and paste or reply directly to imbedded posts on my laptop, so I'll type here the pertinent quote that you just re-posted, above. "PS A couple of friendly suggestions: Try proofreading your posts both before and after you post them. For example, 'How can possible (sic) know...' " David, the reason I put the "(sic)" in there was not to point out the minor misspelling of the word "possibly" as "possible," but the fact that you left out a word, in this case possibly the pronoun "you." (And I only gave you one of several possible examples. No, I didn't say from this same post. You tend to spread them out.) I actually deliberated on where exactly to put the "(sic)". Before the word "possible," or after it? Maybe I confused you by putting it after it? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that evidently you still haven't noticed that you left an important word out. To not do that would be to accuse you of trying to "minimize," "spin," and "turn the tables." My whole point has been that the unintentional leaving out of words is obviously more serious than any (minor) spelling problem. But a bigger hypothetical problem would be the minimizing of "grammar mistakes" (by calling them "spelling mistakes") in an attempt to "turn the tables" on the accuser (me), because that would cast a shadow on the minimizers integrity, wouldn't it. You, in your great haste, tend to leave out words when you're typing your longish posts. I guess those would be called gross "grammar mistakes." You keep complaining that I'm a "spelling nazi," etc, but I never said you'd made a SPELLING mistake. If you want to call all grammar and syntax mistakes, including word omissions, "spellin' mistakes," that's fine with me. But you seem much too highly educated for that. --Tommy Bumped on a library computer to prove to myself that there's a software problem with my laptop and to give David Josephs an opportunity to read it, seein' as how he was busy composing his longish (but finally informative as-to-what-he-thinks) post while I was editing this one. Yes, I'm at a library with my laptop. PS I agree with you, David, that Wesley Buell Frazier is not visible in any image prior to the Darnell/Couch film. No, I don't think Frazier is Prayer Man. Both WBF and Prayer Man are visible at the same time in one of the films (Darnell/Couch?) Nor do I think Shelley is Prayer Man. Prayer Man wasn't wearing a suit and tie. Shelley was. Also, I believe that Shelley and Lovelady were photographically "captured" walking down the sidewalk of the Elm Street extension towards the railway yard / parking lot right after the assassination, right about the same time that Prayer Man and Frazier were "captured" on film. These are just intuitions on my part, so please don't DEMAND that I provide more EVIDENCE as to why I hold these beliefs. I also agree that Suit and Tie Man in Altgens 6 may be William Shelley, although S&T Man looks bigger in girth than Shelley. Peace be with you. Edited February 15, 2014 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 PS I agree that Wesley Buell Frazier is not visible in any image prior to the Darnell film. But I don't think Frazier is Prayer Man. Both WBF and Prayer Man are visible at the same time in the Malcolm Couch film. Nor do I think Shelley is Prayer Man. Prayer Man isn't wearing a suit. These are just intuitions on my part, so please don't DEMAND that I provide more EVIDENCE as to why I hold these beliefs. I also agree that Suit and Tie Man in Altgens 6 may be William Shelley, although S&T Man looks bigger in girth than Shelley Hi Tommy... welcome back. and no worries, wont be asking you for any evidence or support for anything you wish to post.... how you choose to make your points is up to YOU... not me. Yes indeed, IF that is Frazier, he is in the same frames as PM... and it does appear it is Frazier. With the angles and such I'm not sure what is darkness and what is suitman's perimeter. Yet who/where esle could Shelley be? Now a few ideas of who if MIGHT be... 1. Lewis, Roy Edward Black warehouse worker TSBD, front entrance by himself http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1542-001.gif Could be a ligher skinned black man... but seems unlikely 2. Molina, Joe R. Credit Manager at TSBD, second floor TSBD, front steps with Otis Williams and Pauline Sanders http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1547-001.gif He claims to have been a) out front by the "Commerce Street" entrance... which is not possible since Commerce Street is on the other side of DP,the mirror image od Elm. and later he is on the steps with Shelley, Stanton, Mr. Reed, Mrs. Sanders and Eddie Piper.. (I find no info on REED) Why again can this not be Molina? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps. Mr. BALL. With whom? Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders. Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders. Mr. MOLINA. Yes She (PAULINA) said (in this FBI report) she did not see OSWALD during this time and she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the Texas School Book Depository building http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm 3. Williams, Otis Neville Bookkeeping supervisor, TSBD Front steps TSBD No info on him either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) David, If we're speculating that "Suit and Tie Man" on the front steps in Altgens 6 might have been Shelley, Lewis, Molina, or Williams, what about Lloyd Viles, whom you mentioned in post # 1432? But I gotta ask this question: Why is it so important to know who "Suit and Tie Man" was, anyway? Even if S&T Man wasn't Bill Shelley, we know Shelley must have been very close by because we see him walking with Lovelady towards the railway yard just a few seconds after the assassination. To simplify things, let's just say that "Suit and Tie Man" was Bill Shelley, okay? LOL --Tommy At least we agree on one thing, David: "Prayer Man" was an Oswald. Edited February 15, 2014 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Kelly Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Gene, Thanks for interjecting a voice of reason. You do understand that Shelley and Arce didn't walk to the railway yard, don't you, but that Shelley and Lovelady did, right? And that Bonnie Ray Williams accompanied Shelley and Arce to the police station in the police car, some seven blocks away? --Tommy Thomas: I understand that Shelley and Lovelady were photographed walking down the sidewalk of the Elm Street extension towards the railway yard / parking lot right after the assassination... and right about the same time that Prayer Man and Frazier were "captured" on film. I was not paying much attention to who had accompanied Shelley, hence I incorrectly stated it was Arce. I stand corrected. My focus and interest has been primarily on Shelley, and his quick visit to the railyards. The photograph was blown up a bit, and the two figures appear to be them, although as I recall they have their backs to the camera and are small figures in the background (or distance) of the photograph. Nonetheless, it appears to be him. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Kelly Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 PS A couple of friendly suggestions: Try "proofreading" your posts before and after you post them. For example, "How can possible (sic) know..." PPS, I never said anything negative about your "spelling." In fact, your spelling is exemplary. Whatever you say Tommy.... "NEVER !!" The first quote was your FIRST attempt at telling me how I should post... after I told Gene my reply was aimed at your "WHY oh WHY" mind-reading questions... I wrote: Completely Agree Gene... I was directing my comments mostly to Tommy who likes to ask WHY questions that appear to me as rhetorical where only speculative answers are possible.... No wonder you can't follow my content... you can't even remember or follow your own...... Make up your mind already Tommy - you DON'T READ my posts, yet you do and apparently with a fine tooth comb hoping to find spelling, syntax and grammatical mistakes instead of attempting to understand the CONTENT.. and then you emphatically tell me you NEVER posted something ABOUT MY POSTS when just scrolling up the page proves you wrong... Take a breath already, regroup and take a long look at what YOU DO, what YOU POST, instead of playing the forum's post nazi... and please, Pu-LEASE don't suffer my posts any longer... All you need to is NOT read them as you say you already don't... and move on... ====== You have been wrong about this at every single turn... WRONG to tell me how to post, WRONG about the CONTENT you post and edit and repost and edit, ad infinitum and WRONG about what you claim you don't read.... Maybe go try a different thread and bother someone else about how they post... I remember my friend Bernice here used to use CAPS in her posts from time to time... SO WHAT!... her content was/is always interesting and contributory to the topic... your priorities are WHACK "Bro".... time to get a grip. ==================================================================================== Gene and everyone... I've tried to stay on topic and repeatedly asked Tommy here to stay on track and comment on the questions being asked... That does not appear possible... I don't know who PM is yet... and I agree Gene, that Shelley at the very least is aware of TSBD activity and backstories not readily apparent to others. Gene, Do you think SUIT&TIEman is Shelley? and do you think we should see WESLEY in Altgens or any other view of the doorway? Thanks DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Kelly Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I don't know who PM is yet... and I agree Gene, that Shelley at the very least is aware of TSBD activity and backstories not readily apparent to others. Gene, Do you think SUIT&TIEman is Shelley? and do you think we should see WESLEY in Altgens or any other view of the doorway? Thanks DJ DJ: I can't see any other good candidate for Suit & Tie Man other than Shelley. He would certainly be an obvious choice, given his prominent dress style, proximity to events and quick trip to the rail yards shortly after the photograph. As a comparison (and by this same process of elimination for PM), he's got the same likelihood of being S&T man as Oswald has of being PM. One thing for sure... it’s certainly not either of the Oswalds. It seems odd to me that Shelley would be guarding the elevator so quickly after the shooting. Given all the speculation about possible accomplices coming and going using the elevators (e.g. escaping down the shaft), he seems to be “Johnny on the spot” in those first few minutes. Kind of like Sgt. Hill was everywhere that key evidence was found: Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast. Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors. Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir. I do recall some shots of Oswald (e.g. handing out leaflets in New Orleans) with a tie. I'm reminded that the style in those days was prominently skinny ties; they got fatter in the 70's, and then later reverted back to a skinnier look. But when I look at many of the post-shooting photographs, particularly those at/near the TSBD steps, not too many folks were wearing a suit coat and tie. William Hoyt Shelley seems to me a pretty snappy dresser. He resembles Sean Penn. Not to induce more criticism of my visual impressions, but Shelley also reminds me of a stylish rocker of that era (hair, skinny tie, almost what I’d call "hip") like Jerry Lee Lewis... whose nickname by the way was 'the killer'. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 I, believe it or not, have a great deal of interest in Prayerman, albeit I have only read 47 of the 98 or so pages of this thread. I would like to throw out a thing or two. Trying to get to the bottom of all this is very maddening, in no small part that the "Dallas establishment" used every trick in the book to try to suppress the true facts such as Truly and Baker's version of what happened after they entered the TSBD. On another note, I am not so sure some type of image enhancement couldn't nail this down, ie identity of person in foyer called Prayerman... First of all, there is a somewhat hard to find DVD Robert Groden released entitled JFK Assassination Films: The Case for Conspiracy - 2003 - Delta Entertainment Corporation; The DVD has all the films pertaining to this, I've watched the DVD before, and if armed with a remote control with a zoom feature, sometimes things can be zoomed in to clarify not well defined images.......I certainly am not claiming this will work, but it certainly deserves to be attempted. As far as various posts on this thread, the ones speculating what "his" activities were are the most fascinating, Holding a camera.....eating an apple, a sandwich.....regarding the former.... It is interesting to think that "if" Prayerman is Oswald and he does have a camera on him, the provenance of the Minox camera that vanished, leaving only the light meter..... If you haven't noticed there are a lot of liars in the various witness accounts besides Harry Holmes.....but you already knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) [...] [...] Baker running towards the entrance. Credit Gerda Dunckel [...][...] I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but I think the man walking towards the steps in the dark suit is Roy Truly. He steps out of the way and pivots to his left as he waves Baker past him. Looks like he's wearing a dark fedora. The only problem is, this guy looks bigger than Truly, so maybe Truly is the smaller guy standing between Cowboy Hat Man and the woman wearing the black dress / raincoat. FWIW, I think Prayer Man is holding a camera or a pair of binoculars. Side note: It's interesting that Prayer Man isn't looking down Elm Street like most of the other people, but seems to be watching Buell Wesley Frazier, instead, almost like that was his "assignment" for that day. --Tommy Edited June 5, 2014 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) [...] [...] Interesting juxtaposition of images, taken about a minute apart by Dave Weigman and James Darnell, showing Prayer Man in both. I can't tell if PM raises his left hand to his right hand or if he keeps them together. Perhaps he's holding a camera and has it pointed down Elm Street in the first image and in the general direction of Buell Wesley Frazier in the second. Note that Billy Lovelady is visible in the first image standing in the middle near the top of the steps with his dark shirt unbuttoned to the middle of his chest and his white tee shirt showing under it. I think the reason he's not visible in the second image is simply because he and Bill Shelley are already walking down the Elm Street Extension sidewalk. --Tommy Edited June 6, 2014 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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