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Mark, I stand corrected, I apologize wholeheartedly in my oversight that you may not agree that LOVELADY was DOORMAN, I honestly have never heard another alternative other than Man Shielding Eyes.

Please tell me which other person on the steps could be LOVELADY and which is OSWALD and who was DOORMAN?

Sorry to have ruffled your feathers, I appreciate your comments and posts.

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Robert I asked the forum earlier if there is a conclusive detailed mapping of persons on the steps....

I also asked the forum the question if Man Shielding Eyes in not specifically LOVELADY who is it...

What are the chances of two people on the steps in short sleeved shirts...at a location where LOVELADY was likely to be, when there is virtually no one else in DP with short sleeves (SUMMERS is the only other person I have found)

What are the chances that another person in short sleeve shirt went walking to the rail yards at the exact moment LOVELADY and SHELLEY claimed, if the two men in Couch film are not SHELLEY and LOVELADY who are they and where is SHELLEY and LOVELADY?

This is not conclusive... but, Man Shielding Eyes is no longer visible on the steps during the time "SHELLEY and LOVELADY" are filmed walking down the street although an absence of someone from the steps can be explained by stepping back out of view, this absence is corroborative of SHELLEY and LOVELADY leaving steps to walk to rail yards.

Edited by Robert Mady
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Robert, you may not be aware of it but Lovelady was wearing the long sleeved shirt in the photo Ray posted previously in this thread - not a short sleeved shirt. There are also very clear photos of him

both in front of the building and in the sheriff's office afterwards in that same shirt. Hopefully you have reviewed the threads which were suggested to you earlier but I have to join in with Ray and urge you to do so if you have not, the photo record of high quality images extending to the sheriff's office is solid and credible.

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Robert,

I agree entirely with what Larry Hancock has said. There is some absolutely unimpeachable evidence what he was wearing at the time of the assassination. It was a red checkered long sleeve shirt. He can be seen in the image below in facing towards the front doors of the TSBD.

The question of whether Doorman was Oswald or Lovelady was based - in part - whether the shirt worn by the person reflected Oswald's shirt or Lovelady's shirt. The consensus was that the shirt being worn was a checkered shirt like Lovelady's.

Aside from a few exceptions - some of whom have ruined their reputations - the research community are in agreement that doorman is Lovelady. If I have understood you correctly, you believe that Lovelady is the person shielding his eyes. That is nonsense. That person is wearing a white shirt. The image below makes clear that on that day he was not wearing a white shirt.

Lovelady just after the assassination:-

Lovelady_zps7b71a6ad.jpg

James

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Larry, I read Rays post and viewed his photos.

Let me ask you some questions about them

1) Is there any chain of evidence that establishes the exact time or date these films were taken?

2) Had LOVELADY ever been asked if he changed his cloths from the short sleeved shirt he claimed to have worn during the assassination to a longer sleeved shirt when he was done with work or went to the police station to make a statement?

3) The average temperature of Dallas that day was 63 degrees, short sleeved shirts were almost non-existent in photographic evidence from 11/22, is it reasonable that he might have changed?

4) There is no counter-argument needed to claim LOVELADY was not photographed in the plaid shirt, so what? People then point to Pundit Groden and LOVELADY and wife signing the Martin frame as evidence it was LOVELADY in the plaid shirt in the martin frame, so what, it was LOVELADY in the plaid shirt in the Martin frame. To have any significance Pundit Groden would have to had LOVELADY and wife sign A6 and specifically document where LOVELADY was located as well as state in writing the FBI got it wrong in their report and photographs. The bait and switch by Groden is only intended to make you believe LOVELADY was wearing plaid during the assassination, in no way does this prove anything, although it certainly is the intended message that LOVELADY wore plaid that day on the steps.

5) There should be NO valid argument that LOVELADY did not wear the 'red and white vertical stripped' short sleeved shirt during the assassination. To believe the FBI got one of the most crucial damning pieces of evidence wrong and then recorded the results and then released it for general publication is absolutely absurd. Don't you agree?

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James, if you believe the Martin clips is valid, you need to post the evidence, I really don't care because I believe it is either staged, not LOVELADY or taken at a later time or date, it is up to you to prove I may be incorrect.

On the other hand I have posted a substantial amount of evidence showing where LOVELADY was on 11/22/1963 and have yet to see any valid arguments that discount posted evidences.

Who are these guys walking down the street if it is not SHELLEY and LOVELADY as labeled?

LoveladyOutsidecopy_zpsafba7aa1-M_zpse48

IF that IS LOVELADY he is not wearing the plaid shirt, end of discussion correct?

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"The consensus was that the shirt being worn was a checkered shirt like Lovelady's."

Are you serious?

Does it make you feel more confident to be in agreement with the consensus?

The consensus?

The world was flat by consensus.

The world was going into an ice age, 'silent spring' by consensus.

The world is going into global warming by consensus.

The world would run out of oil by the year 2000 by consensus.

Why is there no clear consensus on how the assassination occurred? Researchers have been diligently studying the assassination for 51 years and have come up with zilch, I would not put much stock in researcher would you? They apparently have been stumped by a simple murder filmed in front of 400-600 witnesses.

The only thing people understand is which direction to turn their nose when the wind blows, be a herd animal it can be your choice, it is not mine.

" the research community are in agreement that doorman is Lovelady" lots of laughter...

Edited by Robert Mady
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"There is some absolutely unimpeachable evidence what he was wearing at the time of the assassination"

Do you mean this?

Pundit Groden had LOVELADY and wife identify man in Martin film frame depicted in plaid shirt to be LOVELADY, would someone please show me where on this signed document that claims this is the attire LOVELADY claimed to have worn during the assassination or claimed to have worn at anytime on 11/22/1963?

You guys call yourselves researcher, you need to be a little more discriminating and discerning of the value and validity of evidence and aware that there are those with intentions to sway our thinking with misinformation and disinformation.

Why is it Groden had LOVELADY sign this frame and why LOVELADY and wife were very specific and vague in what they confirmed.

2djuccp_zps7bee1364.jpg

You guys are wearing me out with this non-sense, seriously does anyone actually have valid evidence that LOVELADY could be DOORMAN?

It amounts to the same lone nutter type arguments as the defense against reasonable proofs, whining, crying, gnashing of teeth and insults.

It is a curiosity to witness the conspiracy advocates join forces with the lone nuters in lock step in a simple minded cause.

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Just curious Forum

How many clips are there available of OSWALD in the police station?

All the clips I have seen are in crowded hallways and the one crowed midnight press conference room.

Off hand I only remember midnight press conference, OSWALDS murder and maybe four other clips as OSWALD was being maneuvered thru the congested hallways.

What are the chances that there was just one more clip and it was NOT in a hallway but of an quiet inner office, in it you could not really determine if the man was OSWALD or not because you could only see the back of this head, but low and behold the clip has LOVELADY prominently lounging in the frame displaying his plaid shirt. What are the chances of this being real? Why would you not immediately suspect that this could have been staged at a later date? Does it not seem totally out of character compared to all the other clips available on OSWALD in the police station?

What are the chances that LOVELADY could have been captured in a single odd clip that supposedly included 'OSWALD', really you guys this much asleep you can't see potential that this was a farce?

2v023dg_zps95d546a7.jpg

Is it standard police procedure to parade suspects in front of witnesses?

Edited by Robert Mady
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James, if you believe the Martin clips is valid, you need to post the evidence, I really don't care because I believe it is either staged, not LOVELADY or taken at a later time or date, it is up to you to prove I may be incorrect.

Bob, I really have no clue as to why someone needs to prove a clip is valid. Whether you think it was staged, well, the proof is on you to demonstrate that. You are complaining about folks here:

You guys call yourselves researcher, you need to be a little more discriminating and discerning of the value and validity of evidence and aware that there are those with intentions to sway our thinking with misinformation and disinformation.

I don't believe anyone on this thread is going with anything because it is popular. They have studied and that is what they have decided.

I also note that the posters have been very reasonable toward you with respect to what you are discussing. This is what kinda hacked me off:

You guys are wearing me out with this non-sense, seriously does anyone actually have valid evidence that LOVELADY could be DOORMAN

On the contrary, you have four posts here in a row..that is what wearing out means IMO

Did you ask Robin about the timeline? Did you look at the PM thread?

Sometimes, you appear to ride a high horse.

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Hello James

This is a little off topic but, I am always puzzled when I see the photo of Billy Lovelady outside the front entrance to the TSBD "just after the assassination", as the photo clearly shows police entering the building; something that occurred well after Baker made his dash into the TSBD seconds after the last shot was fired.

You see, Lovelady testified to the WC that he stood on the steps for three minutes before a girl named Gloria Calvary came running up to tell everyone at the entrance that JFK had been shot. At this point, according to his testimony, he and Bill Shelley walked/trotted 75-100 yards down to the railroad yards to see what everyone was heading towards. After they had gone 25 steps, again according to his testimony, they looked back and saw Roy Truly and Constable Baker hurrying into the front entrance of the TSBD. After staying at the rail yard for a few minutes, they re-entered the TSBD through the rear entrance, saw a girl on the first floor but "wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie" and then stayed on the first floor for "I would say thirty minutes", making NO mention of going out the front entrance again.

What do you make of all this, considering the photo you posted claims we are looking at Lovelady just after the assassination?

P.S.

Lovelady almost tells the WC who was standing behind him on the steps of the TSBD, but is cut off by Ball.

"Mr. Ball - Who was with you?

Mr. Lovelady - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me

Mr. Ball - What was that last name?

Mr. Lovelady - Stanton.

Mr. Ball - What is the first name?

Mr. Lovelady - Bill Shelley.

Mr. Ball - And Stanton's first name?

Mr. Lovelady - Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. Ball - Did you stay on the steps?

Mr. Lovelady - Yes."

Whew!!!! That was a close one, Mr. Ball!

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Robert can I add some important information.

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL - That's all?
Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

LOVELADY timing is impossible, there is no way he could have had any conversation with Gloria before leaving the steps, this conversation is misremembered and so is the timing.

LOVELADY left the steps immediately with SHELLEY when he and SHELLEY were 15-25 steps away from the steps, LOVELADY saw BAKER run into the TSBD

Also on the image posted is the officer that started running, if you watch the Couch film you may get the distinct impression that the cop was running and drawing his weapon, this is why LOVELADY and SHELLEY then went back into the TSBD, they realized this could be trouble.

So when was LOVELADY back on the steps of the TSBD and why was he just lounging there getting his profile on film?

couchcaptureMODIFIED2_zps19068a76.jpg

Edited by Robert Mady
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Kathy, the clip is not authentic, there is no way to prove it is, yet it is offered up like it is sacred evidence, I call B.S.

Groden provided no further proof that LOVELADY wore plaid on 11/22/1963 but his hack job has also become some sort of holy grail epiphany that somehow single handedly discredits official FBI reports and photographs accepted as evidence in truth by the US government and the news media. Researchers now might desire to argue about whether the agents, photographer, FBI, WC and the news media misunderstood what LOVELADY actually claimed or LOVELADY was confounded by the FBI agents and photographer about one of the most important pieces of evidence desired by the American Citizens that would help determine if LOVELADY or OSWALD was DOORMAN. I call BS

Kathy, If anyone one on this forum has evidence to post that shows my facts or reasoning is off, I welcome it, this is how one grows. I certainly won't accept evidence that is not in truth.

If I state my case strongly it is because I am that confident in the evidence that I am posting, if not I will say that also.

The PM thread, from how much I read I could find nothing of interest.

I have posted OSWALD on the steps with Robin Unger, he had nothing and in the end he got mad and deleted all of his posts after screaming you can't be serious!

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