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Hughes film.

The limo is approaching the front of the TSBD.


Great clip, Chris!

It looks like Lovelady (wearing unbuttoned red shirt over white t-shirt) is looking at (or talking to) someone behind him before quickly turning towards the street and raising his right hand to shield his eyes from the sun.


--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Groden provided no further proof that LOVELADY wore plaid on 11/22/1963 but his hack job has also become some sort of holy grail epiphany that somehow single handedly discredits official FBI reports and photographs accepted as evidence in truth by the US government and the news media. Researchers now might desire to argue about whether the agents, photographer, FBI, WC and the news media misunderstood what LOVELADY actually claimed or LOVELADY was confounded by the FBI agents and photographer about one of the most important pieces of evidence desired by the American Citizens that would help determine if LOVELADY or OSWALD was DOORMAN. I call BS


Bob, is it your contention that doorman is wearing a plaid shirt?

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Thomas and Chris,

This is PM man, what he appears to do is to move forward or lean forward into the sunshine and as he does he is shielding his face from the sun with his hand, he then moves back and lowers his arm at the same time, it can appear that he is saluting the President as the limo is nearing but it is most likely interaction with the bright light.

PM can not be LOVELADY because in the Couch clip, LOVELADY can be seen in his light colored short sleeved shirt walking with SHELLEY while PM can still be seen on the steps of the TSBD.

Man Shielding Eyes is gone from the steps as is DOORMAN but PM is still present on steps in Couch clip as BAKER runs into the TSBD.

LOVELADY claimed he was walking down the street with SHELLEY when he turned and saw TRULY and BAKER running into the TSBD as well as describing the policeman that can be seen running in front of SHELLEY and LOVELADY moving to the rail yards.


Edited by Robert Mady
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It is very difficult to discuss with you because you appear to have tunnel vision: you are convinced you are right and everyone else is wrong.

In the clip you use on post 365 - one provided by Chris Davidson - you claim if I understood you that Billy Lovelady was on his way back to the TSBD with William Shelley.

First, though a blured frame from Chris Davidson's gif, we can clearly see a figure in a checkered shirt. The shirt that i is similar to the one that Billy Lovelady wore that day and he also preserved.


What I would like to know is the following:-

a) When was Billy Lovelady on the steps of the TSBD?

B) When had he left - with I assume William Shelley _ and both are seen returning in the Couch film?

I may have misinterpreted your position, but it appears to me that your position is that Billy Lovelady was never on the front steps. I cannot see how - at one point BIlly Lovelady was on the front steps of the TSBD - then leaves for destination unknown only to be seen returning - in the Couch film - in the company of William Shelley. If the Zapruder film of the assassination is 26 seconds long, how has Billy Lovelady time to do all that?


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James, in A6 we see LOVELADY to our right of DOORMAN, he is Shielding his eyes.


We can see him and DOORMAN in Wiegman clip still on the steps.

A few moments later the Couch clip was made and Man Shielding Eyes and DOORMAN are absent from the steps.

In Couch clip you can see SHELLEY and LOVELADY are walking towards the rail yards.

Evidence that this is LOVELADY include

Short sleeved, light colored shirt

Claim he was walking with SHELLEY

Claim he turned and saw BAKER and TRULY run into the TSBD

Claim he saw a policeman running to the rail yard in front of them, this is what caused them to return to the TSBD by the back dock doors which can be seen on the building in the Couch film.

There can be absolute certainty this picture posted is of SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking toward the rail yards, moments after the shots were fired.


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What you say is not rational. Your evidence is founded on the Malcolm Couch film. In that film - according to you - Billy Lovelady can be seen returning to the TSBD in the company of William Shelley.

Malcolm Couch was in Press car 3. He was seven cars behind JFK. We are probably talking about - at maximum 2 minutes and possibly less - after JFK's car passes the TSBD.

Yet you claim as JFK's car passes the TSBD Billy Lovelady is seen on the TSBD steps. No later - and quite possibly in less time - he has left the steps. He has gone somewhere but we do not know where. However around 2 minutes he is now seen returning - not going - with William Shelley. What Malcolm Couch describes is - according to you - Billy Lovelady's return. Where he has been before we see him returning is not described. So his journey is greater than what we see in the Malcolm Couch film.

The only factual point we have from this description is that knowing where Malcolm Couch was means that he film was taken no more than 2 minutes after JFK's car passed the TSBD.

There is not the time for Billy Lovelady to be where you say Malcolm Couch places. It is absolutely impossible.


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Funny you should say that Lovelady "misremembered" the conversation with Gloria Calvary, and that the timing of the events in his testimony is impossible.

If you look at William Shelley's testimony to the WC, you'll find he recalls the same episode of Gloria Calvary running up to the steps and telling everyone JFK had been shot PRIOR to them leaving for the rail yards.

"Mr. Ball - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. Shelley - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit."

Seems to be an awful lot of "misremembering" going on that day.

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Would you show me where Robert has stated that Lovelady can be seen returning to the front steps of the TSBD in the Couch film? Lovelady clearly states, in his testimony, that he re-entered the TSBD by a back door, and stayed on the first floor for thirty minutes.

This also brings us back to the photo you posted showing Lovelady at the front of the TSBD "just after the assassination", yet clearly AFTER Baker has run into the building, as there are now other police entering the building.

Would you not say this photo is impossible, given the testimony of Lovelady and Shelley to the WC?

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James the clip that Chris and then I posted was of the Hughes film. This shows the steps as the limo is turning the corner on Elm.

In it you can only see PM. The comment to Chris was that PM could not possible be LOVELADY.

How can I be so sure.

1) PM / DOORMAN / MAN SHIELDING EYES are on the steps in Wiegman clip which is taken probably when shot have just been fired or are still being fired according to Wiegman.

2) Next clip is Couch film that is just a few moments after the Wiegman film, and DOORMAN and MAN SHIELDING EYES are no longer on the steps, but PM is.

3) Couch clip shows SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking down the street, exactly as claimed, while BAKER and TRULY run into the TSBD and DP officer runs to the rail yards in front of them.

To give you an idea Wiegman was in camera car #1, Couch was two cars behind in camera car #3, this is how much separation in distance the two cars were, the time difference is harder to determine but is it probably very short.

Am I sure that this is absolutely correct; YES.

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I am not aware Robert has said that Lovelady can be seen on the steps in the Couch film. His point, as I understand it, is that Couch shows him returning to the TSBD.

In post 367 he states that while JFK was passing the TSBD Lovelady can be seen on the steps.

As regards the Hughes film I remember Sean ( I forget his second name ) clearly establishing that the figure in the checkered shirt was Lovelady. I remember either Sean or Robin Unger time stamping when that portion of the film was taken. It was certainly after the assassination and before he is seen in the sherif's office.

And no I would not say the photo is impossible. I am not aware doubt has been placed on the Hughes film.


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