The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Greg,

      I suggest that you go back study the original, detailed commentaries in the first several pages of this 2015 thread by James DiEugenio and Greg Parker.  It can't be said any better.  They review the evidence about the Paines, Allen Dulles, and the involvement of the Paines in helping to set up and, later, frame Oswald as the lone assassin of JFK.

     This includes a review of the fact that Ruth Paine's own father and sister worked for the CIA-- something that she tried to cover up during the Clay Shaw trial.

     And, incidentally, I don't bear false witness against anyone.  Never have and never shall.

     It's against my "ancient Near Eastern religion."     

W., concerning your "Ruth Paine's history with the CIA" I read pages 1-5 and except for one mention of the Marina CIA/ACLU hearsay, no one in those pages even claims Ruth was CIA, let alone purports to offer evidence for such.

You add now "Ruth Paine's own father and sister worked for the CIA--something she tried to cover up during the Clay Shaw trial". Do you know that Ruth knew her sister was CIA at the time she was asked about her sister? No. Are you sure covert CIA persons with cover employment in the government tell adult siblings they are covert CIA (as opposed to the cover employment)? I very much doubt that you know that. Are you being fair, if you don't know, which you don't, to level that accusation against Ruth Paine? 

Also, I could be wrong but unlike with her sister I don't think her father ever was verified CIA. I am not denying the possibility and I don't care here whether he was or wasn't. I am simply saying as a matter of factual accuracy I don't think that is a known fact. There is a hearsay of a woman who says Ruth told her her father was CIA but we don't know if that is accurate transmission since it is hearsay. Would Ruth know? In the Max Good film Ruth Paine says she doesn't know. 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/3/2022 at 12:41 PM, Pat Speer said:

On 5/3/2022 at 12:20 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Oh come on Greg... you can't seriously believe that Ruth's innocent suggestion for Oswald to apply for work at the TSBD just happened -- by some insane coincidence -- to put Oswald where he needed to be for the Big Event!

On 5/3/2022 at 12:41 PM, Pat Speer said:

I think it is a mistake to assume the assassin had to fire from the TSBD. There were other buildings along the route that may have been just as well suited, or perhaps even better suited, for an assassination attempt. 

 

Pat,

My post that you replied to was about Oswald, not about any of the assassins.

It's pretty obvious that the TSBD was decided on beforehand for placing the patsy. Likely some of the real assassins fired from there. They built a sniper's nest for Oswald there. Truly was prepared to finger Oswald as the suspect there. I think it's safe to assume that the TSBD was a CIA cover.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/3/2022 at 6:11 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

So what? Are you under the impression that consequential events in history never happen due to random coincidences such as this? To pretend otherwise is absurd.

 

Events with astronomically long odds almost never happen. You apparently cannot recognize such an event, don't understand the implications of it, and therefore cannot draw any meaningful conclusions from it.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:28 PM, Denny Zartman said:

On 5/3/2022 at 2:00 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

There is also a strong visual suggestion that Shelley was photographed with Oswald at the New Orleans Trade Mart earlier in 1963.

It sure looks like Shelley to me.

 

Ditto.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Jonathan Cohen]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Events with astronomically long odds almost never happen. You apparently cannot recognize such an event, don't understand the implications of it, and therefore cannot draw any meaningful conclusions from it.

The ignorance of this statement is breathtaking, but not surprising coming from someone who believes suburban Dallas housewives with young children are actually CIA agents and that there were multiple Marguerite Oswalds up to no good all over the American south throughout the last century. Just for reference, here's a list of dozens of "events with astronomically long odds" that did, in fact, happen.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

The ignorance of this statement is breathtaking, but not surprising coming from someone who believes suburban Dallas housewives with young children are actually CIA agents and that there were multiple Marguerite Oswalds up to no good all over the American south throughout the last century. Just for reference, here's a list of dozens of "events with astronomically long odds" that did, in fact, happen.

I've had a lot of these within my own life, and write about them, here:

https://www.patspeer.com/patspeerscoincidenceblog

Admittedly, most of the ones on your list were more surprising than the ones on my own. But there's one tale involving a friend that is pretty freaking remarkable.

He was a huge fan of U2, and had recently seen U2 at Dodger Stadium. At one point in the concert, Bono had moved to the edge of the stage, and my friend had rushed the stage to shake his hand. He told myself and others about this and what a great thrill it had been for him.

Well, about a month later, he was in a suburban record store, and heard a customer telling an employee about his recent experience seeing U2 at Dodger Stadium. This store was a good 25 miles and 1.5 million people away from Dodger Stadium. And he heard this customer say he'd taken numerous photos, including an incredibly dramatic photo in which a fan rushed the stage and shook Bono's hand. At this, my friend's ears perked up, and he asked if he could see the photo. The customer had it on his phone, and showed it to my friend. Yessirree, it was him. 

The customer sent the photo to my friend, and he blew it up to poster size, framed it, and put it on his living room wall. 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Events with astronomically long odds almost never happen.

The ignorance of this statement is breathtaking...

 

Oh really?

"Events with astronomically long odds" by definition "almost never happen."

That is what "long odds" means.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Just for reference, here's a list of dozens of "events with astronomically long odds" that did, in fact, happen.

 

I didn't say they never happen... I said they almost never happen.

BTW, how much would you have bet on Oswald's accidentally getting a job at the right place and time? Do you think the plotters would have left that up to chance? Because, you know, events with long odds DO happen!  LOL

 

[Greg Doudna]

On coincidence and probability.

I don't think there is any remarkable coincidence that a person who helped someone get a job who (that second person) is later accused of a major crime--that the location where that person was accused of having committed that major crime might be the place where the person helped them get the job. That isn't much of a coincidence at all. That would sort of be what might be expected.

So I see, Sandy L., this as a logical fallacy. It is related to the same kind of fallacy that creationists use to prove evolution could not possibly have happened because look at the odds against how we each individually turn out. Well, the odds indeed are astronomical against any individual event having happened that way, or any individual roll of a thousand dice would have turned out the way those thousand dice turned out. It is a logical fallacy.

I could go into some interesting things on how common real coincidences are and how that phenomenon has actually been studied, but that would be extraneous here because I reject the premise that what Sandy L. is talking about as a startling coincidence is real as opposed to illusory (logical fallacy). 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I don't think there is any remarkable coincidence that a person who helped someone get a job who (that second person) is later accused of a major crime--that the location where that person was accused of having committed that major crime might be the place where the person helped them get the job. That isn't much of a coincidence at all. That would sort of be what might be expected.

 

Well you'd be right Greg if Oswald planned the shooting himself. But you are wrong because that is not what happened. Someone else planned the shooting and needed Oswald to be there to take his role as patsy. People who think that wouldn't be much of a coincidence for Oswald to accidentally get a job at the right place just don't understand probability. Hopefully they aren't in the business of betting.

 

[Greg Doudna]

11 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well you'd be right Greg if Oswald planned the shooting himself. But you are wrong because that is not what happened. Someone else planned the shooting and needed Oswald to be there to take his role as patsy. People who think that wouldn't be much of a coincidence for Oswald to accidentally get a job at the right place just don't understand probability. Hopefully they aren't in the business of betting.

Sandy did you see my updated "Oswald, the job at the Texas School Book Depository, and the assassination: an update and correction?" on my topic thread concerned with that issue (its toward the bottom of page 1 at 5/3/22 5:18 pm: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27730-an-unjust-accusation-ruth-paine-and-the-tsbd-job-of-oswald/)?

That sets out my (corrected) argument on that which I believe addresses the question of how a random helping of Oswald get that job on the part of what Steve Roe calls the "Irving Koffee Klatch", is (in my view) compatible with a very serious and intentional plot to assassinate Kennedy in his visit to Dallas, before the route of the motorcade was or could be known.

 

[Greg Doudna]

On 12/31/2015 at 1:03 AM, James DiEugenio said:

But before we get to that end game, let us add in something that Jim Douglass so beautifully portrayed in his fine volume JFK and the Unspeakable. (In his autographed copy to me, he wrote that he went to school for his book by reading Probe. Therefore what he wrote there about the Paines he must owe to Carol.)

In addition to predicting that she would pick up Marina and bring her to live with her in the fall of 1963, Ruth did something else to put Oswald in a pretty bad predicament that fall.

Let me quote from DB 2, p. 163: "The Warren Report states that Ruth Paine heard through a friend that there was a job opening at the Texas School Book Depository. Ruth called supervisor Roy Truly at the Depository to arrange a meeting for Oswald. She then told Oswald about this arrangement that day, October 14. Lee interviewed on the 15th, and started work on the 16th. The Report tells us that the Oswalds were elated with his new job. What the report does not say is that an offer of a better paying job came in before Oswald started work at the Depository.

When Oswald returned form Mexico, he visited the Texas Employment Commission. In reply to that visit, Robert Adams phoned the Paine residence on October 15 with a better job offer for Oswald than the one he took. Adams said he spoke with someone there about a permanent position as cargo handler at Trans Texas Airport, a job that paid about 100 dollars more per month than the Depository. Adams said that he was told Oswald was not at home. He left a message that Oswald should call him about the job. Adams called again the next morning. This time he was told that Oswald had taken a different job. Adams therefore crossed him off his list.

When Ruth Paine was asked about this phone call from Adams, she first said she did not recall it, but she eventually did. Yet she said she heard of it through Lee Oswald. Oswald informed her that he had high hopes for it but it had "fallen through". This does not coincide with what Adams said. He tried to notify Oswald twice, since the job was still available. The job offer from Adams paid about 30 per cent more than what Oswald earned at the Depository. Therefore if Oswald had known about it, why would he not have taken it? Especially since Marina testified that Lee was not satisfied with the Depository job. He was searching through the newspapers for something better. Needless to say, if whoever had talked to Adams had told Oswald about the offer, he very likely would not have been on the motorcade route one month later." 

This James Douglass story repeated so many times is nonsense. See my updated "Did Ruth Paine knowingly fail to inform Oswald of a Trans Texas Airways better job? No. The baselessness of the accusation that Ruth Paine wilfully obstructed Oswald from learning of a better job opportunity", at https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27730-an-unjust-accusation-ruth-paine-and-the-tsbd-job-of-oswald/.

I hope with this information that this instance of abuse of Ruth Paine will cease forthwith, on the part of all for whom it matters whether an innocent person is smeared publicly. 

 

[Pat Speer]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I didn't say they never happen... I said they almost never happen.

BTW, how much would you have bet on Oswald's accidentally getting a job at the right place and time? Do you think the plotters would have left that up to chance? Because, you know, events with long odds DO happen!  LOL

 

This goes back to an earlier post. How do you know it was the "right place"? There may have been dozens of other locations as suited or more suited than the TSBD for the planners' needs. 

As far as the "right time"? Don't you think that was by design and not a coincidence? 

Assuming Oswald had a handler who was in on the plot...the handler may have told him to find a job downtown. That's it. The rest could be altered as needed. As stated, the number of political assassinations performed with a rifle is minuscule. It could very well have been that the initial plan was to have someone shoot JFK with a handgun at close range, and that the rifle was added into it only after Oswald got a job at the TSBD and reported back that the upper floors were largely empty and the back door was unlocked. 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Jonathan, let me quote you on something significant:

Dallas housewives with young children are actually CIA agents

Are you aware of the complete story about Ruth and her return to Texas after she got literally jeered out of NIcaragua.  Are you aware of what she told her confidante about this matter?

Secondly, are you also aware that Doug Horne revealed in Oliver's film that Truly was not being paid through the TSBD system.

He is the guy who turned over Oswald's name to the DPD.

Coincidence after Coincidence.

[Pat Speer]

7 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Jonathan, let me quote you on something significant:

Dallas housewives with young children are actually CIA agents

Are you aware of the complete story about Ruth and her return to Texas after she got literally jeered out of NIcaragua.  Are you aware of what she told her confidante about this matter?

Secondly, are you also aware that Doug Horne revealed in Oliver's film that Truly was not being paid through the TSBD system.

He is the guy who turned over Oswald's name to the DPD.

Coincidence after Coincidence.

Didn't Truly work there for like 25 years? If I recall, he even owned a piece of the company.