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Challenge for Thomas Graves


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I see Tommy has also been indulging in some non-typo typing just like his new bro.

Dear Greg,

Unlike you, I'm not a very good writer, and in addition to that, I'm often thinking of things to add to or take away from my posts.

I hope that's okay.

Does that seem ... uhhh .... suspicious to you?

--Tommy :sun

Only when you have a list of names you want to have a sly comment about - and then later edit to add my name.

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I see Tommy has also been indulging in some non-typo typing just like his new bro.

Dear Greg,

Unlike you, I'm not a very good writer, and in addition to that, I'm often thinking of things to add to or take away from my posts.

I hope that's okay.

Does that seem ... uhhh .... suspicious to you?

--Tommy :sun

Only when you have a list of names you want to have a sly comment about - and then later edit to add my name.

Dear Greg,

Well, I might as well admit it. You were an afterthought.

But regardless, you should count your blessings -- at least I didn't give you any buttons. You already have more than enough that are incredibly easy to "push".

And by the way, regarding my so-called perceived "relationship" with Trejo, you're starting to sound not only envious, but downright jealous, as well.

I mean, you do have a significant other in your life, don't you?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I see Tommy has also been indulging in some non-typo typing just like his new bro.

Dear Greg,

Unlike you, I'm not a very good writer, and in addition to that, I'm often thinking of things to add to or take away from my posts.

I hope that's okay.

Does that seem ... uhhh .... suspicious to you?

--Tommy :sun

Only when you have a list of names you want to have a sly comment about - and then later edit to add my name.

Dear Greg,

Well, I might as well admit it. You were an afterthought.

But regardless, you should count your blessings -- at least I didn't give you any buttons. You already have more than enough that are incredibly easy to "push".

And by the way, regarding my so-called perceived "relationship" with Trejo, you're starting to sound not only envious, but downright jealous, as well.

I mean, you do have a significant other in your life, don't you?

--Tommy :sun

I am. I always wanted an ewok. :blink:

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[...]

I hasten to add, [my] explaining away the money order mystery was no major coup on my part. No conspiracy theory, even that of the researcher who ended up with egg on his face, will collapse merely because the money order is not a smoking gun.

[...]

Lance,

I agree. In fact, I'm starting to consider the possibility that Oswald was encouraged by somebody (perhaps even duped by the JFK assassination bad guys) to order a rifle and a revolver under the assumed name "Hidell" from two different mail order companies as part of the at-that-time ongoing United States Senate's investigation, under Senator Thomas Dodd, of mail order gun houses. http://www.famoustexans.com/leeharveyoswald.htm

The reason I say this is because you've convinced me that there was nothing "fishy" about how the "Hidell" postal money order was handled by the financial institutions involved, and because the writing on the PMO looks to me like Oswald's handwriting. Also, it makes no sense to me that the "bad guys" would have gone to the trouble to fabricate that postal money order and yet be so careless as to make all of the alleged errors and "errors of omission" which the more over-the-top CTers fervently believe they have detected.

Thanks for contributing to the JFK Assassination Debate forum.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Tommy is a funny guy.

Even when he doesn't know it.

When are you going to say hey, not only that, "they have a screw loose".

Dear Jim,

LOL , I

didn't think it was humanly

possible you know but --

your your your non-sequitured streaming

consciousness "poetry" gets

better even! right?

NOW! I mean I mean I mean I mean ...

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Tommy is a funny guy.

Even when he doesn't know it.

When are you going to say hey, not only that, "they have a screw loose".

Tommy apparently can't make sense of two simple English sentences. But he can be fooled by the ramblings of a lawyer full of himself.

Edit: Tommy, you disappoint me.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Tommy is a funny guy.

Even when he doesn't know it.

When are you going to say hey, not only that, "they have a screw loose".

Tommy apparently can't make sense of two simple English sentences. But he can be fooled by the ramblings of a lawyer full of himself.

Edit: Tommy, you disappoint me.

Dear Sandy,

Absolutely!

Uhhh... Which one.

Sentences I mean?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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What a boatload of crap!

After lurking for a while, I weighed in on one piece of evidence (a Postal Money Order) that has been touted for years by a well-known conspiracy researcher and author as being one of the “smoking guns” of the assassination. ....

Simply by dispassionately following the evidence where it led in regard to the supposed “smoking gun,” I had committed heresy.

You did not "follow the evidence where it led," Mr. Payette. You concocted your own idea as to how PMOs should be treated and tried to pass it off as fact! I repeatedly asked you for evidence to back your claim and you could provide none.

I was the one who followed the evidence. The evidence is contained within a couple of paragraphs in a legal document.

I had – gasp! – put a dent in the armor of certain of the Conspiracy Theorists and tossed a bone to the despised Lone Nutters. .... Not only did the attacks become personal, but the arguments in favor of the supposed “smoking gun” became irrational.

My arguments became irrational?? How is "the PMO regulation is in this legal document" irrational, Mr. Payette?

As for personal attacks, I remember who threw out the first ones. Let me give you a hint... they were directed at "a well-known conspiracy researcher and author." That's right, it was you Mr. Payette. And so, some personal attacks were lobbed back at you. What did you expect... roses?

In order to keep the money order mystery afloat, sub-mysteries were invented to an extent that became comical; anything to avoid the obvious, that the supposed “smoking gun” was in fact not smoking.


No, no, no, no, no, no, no! There were no sub-mysteries... at least not on my part. You were the one making excuses for the idea you had concocted on how money orders should be treated. In contrast I was the one who held steady, repeatedly pointing you to the same PMO regulation. The one that is in the legal document. The one that is written in stone and never changes.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Tommy - Thanks for bringing up the Thomas Dodd's Senate Investigation of mail order weapons sales. Others on this thread might think it a purposeful derailing. I don't. I weigh in on the strong likelihood that Oswald did in fact order guns by mail using an alias, and since that makes no sense as part of a plan to actually kill someone it probably had another purpose. I don't think (sorry Sandy) that anyone can prove LHO did not order the rifle from Kleins based on common practice with Postal Orders. Mistakes can always account for shipping the wrong rifle or the lack of proper stamps on the money order.

The reason I chimed in here in support of Tommy's 'derailing' is that if we argue forever that he never ordered the rifle we give 'conspiracy theorists' a bad name, and Lance is thereby able to label us religious zealots. And most importantly, we lose the opportunity to take a closer look at Senator Dodd. How interesting is it that he was close to Hoover, and close to the American Security Council (sure didn't know that, but it puts him real close to some very virulent people), and that his Senate Internal Security Subcommittee was involved with William Pawley and Operation Red Cross. We thereby bump straight into Otto Otepka, who was in cahoots with this subcommittee and also on the outs with the Kennedy clan, and just so happened to be following closely the false defector programs and apparently LHO in particular.

Why can't the brains here, the intrepid researchers, put some energy into this angle? It seems much more fruitful than arguing about the dos and donts of postal money orders circa 1963. I think it was Peter Dale Scott who first speculated about Thomas Dodd. I have been unable online to penetrate further into the latter day Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. Easier in the early days of McCarthy.

Jim - you have done such great in depth research over the years on so many angles. What do you think of this angle, and what do you know? Are you in the camp that LHO never ordered any guns?

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Tommy - Thanks for bringing up the Thomas Dodd's Senate Investigation of mail order weapons sales. Others on this thread might think it a purposeful derailing. I don't. I weigh in on the strong likelihood that Oswald did in fact order guns by mail using an alias, and since that makes no sense as part of a plan to actually kill someone it probably had another purpose. I don't think (sorry Sandy) that anyone can prove LHO did not order the rifle from Kleins based on common practice with Postal Orders. Mistakes can always account for shipping the wrong rifle or the lack of proper stamps on the money order.

The reason I chimed in here in support of Tommy's 'derailing' is that if we argue forever that he never ordered the rifle we give 'conspiracy theorists' a bad name, and Lance is thereby able to label us religious zealots. And most importantly, we lose the opportunity to take a closer look at Senator Dodd. How interesting is it that he was close to Hoover, and close to the American Security Council (sure didn't know that, but it puts him real close to some very virulent people), and that his Senate Internal Security Subcommittee was involved with William Pawley and Operation Red Cross. We thereby bump straight into Otto Otepka, who was in cahoots with this subcommittee and also on the outs with the Kennedy clan, and just so happened to be following closely the false defector programs and apparently LHO in particular.

Why can't the brains here, the intrepid researchers, put some energy into this angle? It seems much more fruitful than arguing about the dos and donts of postal money orders circa 1963. I think it was Peter Dale Scott who first speculated about Thomas Dodd. I have been unable online to penetrate further into the latter day Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. Easier in the early days of McCarthy.

Jim - you have done such great in depth research over the years on so many angles. What do you think of this angle, and what do you know? Are you in the camp that LHO never ordered any guns?

Just to be clear Paul, the only thing that I have claimed and have proven is that Federal Reserve Bank regulations in 1963 state that "cash items," including postal money orders, were to be endorsed by the presenting bank. That's it. I don't claim that therefore the PMO is fake. I don't claim that Oswald didn't order the rifle. I make only that one claim, because it is the only thing that I have studied (so far) in great detail.

So you and others don't need to be concerned about how I feel (though I do appreciate it) if they believe the PMO was cashed or that Oswald purchased the rifle.

The reason I was disappointed by Thomas' congratulatory wave to Lance Payette is because I thought he was smart enough to see that I had proven my case, and that Lance hadn't. I mean, for heavens sake, it is so easy to see that. It's simple English.

Having said that, though, I'm certainly not going to simply drop the theory that Oswald didn't buy the rifle just because some self-aggrandizing Perry Mason wannabe might attempt to paint researchers as zealots. There are some other serious issues with the rifle to be considered. Plus I will point out that, if further verification does indeed show that Oswald most likely didn't purchase the Hidell rifle, that would effectively put to rest other competing theories like yours, and that would save researchers countless hours of wasted effort.

In the meantime I applaud your desire, and Tommy's, to consider other possibilities. But for now, my money is on the rifle purchase being faked.

BTW, our efforts here have established and added the following information to the PMO-related research of John Armstrong and others:

  • That FRBs did indeed require banks to endorse PMOs, THIS ACCORDING TO THEIR OPERATING CIRCULARS AND REGULATION J.
  • That bank endorsements on PMOs served only as bank stamps, not endorsements. (Bank stamps on PMOs are "not regarded as endorsements.")
  • That these bank stamps were required at all times during the twentieth century. That is, according to legal documents, the practice of bank stamping PMOs never changed throughout the century.
  • That prior to 1951 (the year FRBs began accepting PMOs) it was the Post Office that set the requirement for bank stamps, and that this requirement was plainly and indisputably stated in United States Official Postal Guides. This fact supports the notion that the bank stamp requirement made by FRBs in Operating Circulars and Regulation J were real and not just meaningless bits of information (as Lance Payette would have people believe).
  • That in 1987 the requirement for bank stamps on PMOs was moved to Regulation CC.
Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Add to that that the rifle was addressed to Alex Hidell to a post office box in the name of Oswald, which means it should never have been accepted. It should have been "Returned to sender"

That's right Ray. That's one of the many problems with the alleged rifle purchase that doesn't seem to faze some people.

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Tommy - Thanks for bringing up the Thomas Dodd's Senate Investigation of mail order weapons sales. Others on this thread might think it a purposeful derailing. I don't. I weigh in on the strong likelihood that Oswald did in fact order guns by mail using an alias, and since that makes no sense as part of a plan to actually kill someone it probably had another purpose. I don't think (sorry Sandy) that anyone can prove LHO did not order the rifle from Kleins based on common practice with Postal Orders. Mistakes can always account for shipping the wrong rifle or the lack of proper stamps on the money order.

The reason I chimed in here in support of Tommy's 'derailing' is that if we argue forever that he never ordered the rifle we give 'conspiracy theorists' a bad name, and Lance is thereby able to label us religious zealots. And most importantly, we lose the opportunity to take a closer look at Senator Dodd. How interesting is it that he was close to Hoover, and close to the American Security Council (sure didn't know that, but it puts him real close to some very virulent people), and that his Senate Internal Security Subcommittee was involved with William Pawley and Operation Red Cross. We thereby bump straight into Otto Otepka, who was in cahoots with this subcommittee and also on the outs with the Kennedy clan, and just so happened to be following closely the false defector programs and apparently LHO in particular.

Why can't the brains here, the intrepid researchers, put some energy into this angle? It seems much more fruitful than arguing about the dos and donts of postal money orders circa 1963. I think it was Peter Dale Scott who first speculated about Thomas Dodd. I have been unable online to penetrate further into the latter day Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. Easier in the early days of McCarthy.

Jim - you have done such great in depth research over the years on so many angles. What do you think of this angle, and what do you know? Are you in the camp that LHO never ordered any guns?

Paul B.,

Excellent post. I had forgotten (or didn't even know) a lot of the "details" you mention.

There's so much to research in the JFK assassination case, and so little time.

Just a thought -- Wouldn't it really be something if Gerry Patrick Hemming was telling the truth when he said he enticed Oswald into bringing the rifle to the TSBD on or right before 11/22/63, on the pretense of wanting to buy it for twice what Oswald had paid for it?

Boy, that would really be something.

But I suppose that begs the question: Why would Hemming implicate himself like that?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Add to that that the rifle was addressed to Alex Hidell to a post office box in the name of Oswald, which means it should never have been accepted. It should have been "Returned to sender"

That's right Ray. That's one of the many problems with the alleged rifle purchase that doesn't seem to faze some people.

On a separate piece of paper with the PMO -- "Please send to me, A. Hidell, in care of (C/O.) L. H. Oswald"?

I don't suppose that's a possibility.

Probably not.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

--Tommy :sun

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