Ron Ecker Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 The Umbrella Man was not acting in any official capacity in Dealey Plaza that day. OTOH, Lt. Lipsey had a very high profile position as aide to Maj. Gen. Wehle, and it might be a little bit more difficult for Lipsey to simply fudge the details of his whereabouts in Washington, DC for 3-4 hours, especially on the night of JFK's autopsy. We can argue back and forth, but I think it's very significant that Sibert and O'Neill, according to their report, were completely unaware of the presence in the room throughout the autopsy of a uniformed military officer, particularly one whom an Army general (Wehle) came in periodically to relieve. (According to Sibert and O'Neill, Wehle entered the room once, to confer with the Secret Service.) We also have to believe that Sibert and O'Neill were completely unaware of another uniformed officer in the room, Lt. Sam Bird. It comes down to whom do we believe, Sibert and O'Neill or Lipsey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) Let me offer an hypothesis about Lipsey. He was ordered by Wehle to stay with the body. But Lipsey did so by remaining outside the autopsy room, from which the body could not be taken without his knowledge. He was contacted by the HSCA when it learned from Wehle of his order to Lipsey. Lipsey then proceeded to make up a story, perhaps in part at least to cover up the fact that he didn't literally stay with the body. Edited September 23, 2016 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Cliff, You raise an interesting issue. The Sibert-O’Neill Report includes a list of those who were at the autopsy, and Lipsey is not on the list. The report specifically states that the two FBI agents and three Secret Service agents “were the only personnel other than medical personnel present during the autopsy.” It mentions General Wehle once: “Major General WEHLE, Commanding Officer of U.S. Military District, Washington,D.C., entered the autopsy room to ascertain from the Secret Service arrangements concerning the transportation of the President’s body back to the White House.” You would think that Sibert and O’Neill would have noticed Lipsey at least once, particularly when he and Lt. Sam Bird (also not on the list) were eating their hamburgers. http://22november1963.org.uk/sibert-and-oneill-report Perhaps they only wanted people "present" who were in on the coverup. If they didn't put Lipsey on the list, 53 years later, "researchers" such as Cliff can then call him a prevaricator. BTW, how did the HSCA know to seek Lipsey out as an autopsy witness? Maybe from Best Evidence. I'm pretty sure Lifton interviewed him. He knew a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 The Umbrella Man was not acting in any official capacity in Dealey Plaza that day. OTOH, Lt. Lipsey had a very high profile position as aide to Maj. Gen. Wehle, and it might be a little bit more difficult for Lipsey to simply fudge the details of his whereabouts in Washington, DC for 3-4 hours, especially on the night of JFK's autopsy. We can argue back and forth, but I think it's very significant that Sibert and O'Neill, according to their report, were completely unaware of the presence in the room throughout the autopsy of a uniformed military officer, particularly one whom an Army general (Wehle) came in periodically to relieve. (According to Sibert and O'Neill, Wehle entered the room once, to confer with the Secret Service.) We also have to believe that Sibert and O'Neill were completely unaware of another uniformed officer in the room, Lt. Sam Bird. It comes down to whom do we believe, Sibert and O'Neill or Lipsey. Ron, The whole room was buzzing with people. I doubt very much that Sibert and O'Neill kept any kind of comprehensive list. To suggest Lipsey wasn't there is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 The Umbrella Man was not acting in any official capacity in Dealey Plaza that day. OTOH, Lt. Lipsey had a very high profile position as aide to Maj. Gen. Wehle, and it might be a little bit more difficult for Lipsey to simply fudge the details of his whereabouts in Washington, DC for 3-4 hours, especially on the night of JFK's autopsy. We can argue back and forth, but I think it's very significant that Sibert and O'Neill, according to their report, were completely unaware of the presence in the room throughout the autopsy of a uniformed military officer, particularly one whom an Army general (Wehle) came in periodically to relieve. (According to Sibert and O'Neill, Wehle entered the room once, to confer with the Secret Service.) We also have to believe that Sibert and O'Neill were completely unaware of another uniformed officer in the room, Lt. Sam Bird. It comes down to whom do we believe, Sibert and O'Neill or Lipsey. Ron, The whole room was buzzing with people. I doubt very much that Sibert and O'Neill kept any kind of comprehensive list. To suggest Lipsey wasn't there is ridiculous. Why? He said so many things that were not true it's hard to believe the man was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 In 1979 David Lifton interviewed Lt. Lipsey. The interview was regarding the decoy ambulance and dual caskets. Lipsey swore "on a stack of bibles" that only one casket entered the room. If a second one did, it had to have "come down the mail chute." He said he was in the autopsy room and would have known if another casket entered. He wouldn't talk about the autopsy till the HSCA because of the document all the military attendees signed stating that they wouldn't reveal anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) The Umbrella Man was not acting in any official capacity in Dealey Plaza that day. OTOH, Lt. Lipsey had a very high profile position as aide to Maj. Gen. Wehle, and it might be a little bit more difficult for Lipsey to simply fudge the details of his whereabouts in Washington, DC for 3-4 hours, especially on the night of JFK's autopsy. We can argue back and forth, but I think it's very significant that Sibert and O'Neill, according to their report, were completely unaware of the presence in the room throughout the autopsy of a uniformed military officer, particularly one whom an Army general (Wehle) came in periodically to relieve. (According to Sibert and O'Neill, Wehle entered the room once, to confer with the Secret Service.) We also have to believe that Sibert and O'Neill were completely unaware of another uniformed officer in the room, Lt. Sam Bird. It comes down to whom do we believe, Sibert and O'Neill or Lipsey. Ron, The whole room was buzzing with people. I doubt very much that Sibert and O'Neill kept any kind of comprehensive list. To suggest Lipsey wasn't there is ridiculous. Why? He said so many things that were not true it's hard to believe the man was there. Because it is common knowledge he was there. Under what rock have you been hiding?? Didn't you read Best Evidence? Edited September 23, 2016 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 The Umbrella Man was not acting in any official capacity in Dealey Plaza that day. OTOH, Lt. Lipsey had a very high profile position as aide to Maj. Gen. Wehle, and it might be a little bit more difficult for Lipsey to simply fudge the details of his whereabouts in Washington, DC for 3-4 hours, especially on the night of JFK's autopsy. We can argue back and forth, but I think it's very significant that Sibert and O'Neill, according to their report, were completely unaware of the presence in the room throughout the autopsy of a uniformed military officer, particularly one whom an Army general (Wehle) came in periodically to relieve. (According to Sibert and O'Neill, Wehle entered the room once, to confer with the Secret Service.) We also have to believe that Sibert and O'Neill were completely unaware of another uniformed officer in the room, Lt. Sam Bird. It comes down to whom do we believe, Sibert and O'Neill or Lipsey. Ron, The whole room was buzzing with people. I doubt very much that Sibert and O'Neill kept any kind of comprehensive list. To suggest Lipsey wasn't there is ridiculous. That's par for the course around here, Sandy. There are all kinds of ridiculous suggestions on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 "How would he know where the bullet went? That was the big mystery!" You really don't read anything at all, Cliff. Lipsey described the autopsy doctors discussing following a wound track that ranged downward into JFK's chest and then disappeared. And Lipsey is a proven prevaricator. James Curtis Jenkins interviewed by David Lifton, Best Evidence, pg 713 <quote on, emphasis added> Jenkins: I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe...through the pleura [the lining of the chest cavity]. Lifton: Explain that to me. You could see the probe that he was putting in the wound? You could see it through the pleura? Jenkins: You could actually see where it was making an indentation. Lifton: ...an indentation on the pleura. Jenkins: Right...where it was pushing the skin up...There was no entry into the chest cavity...it would have been no way that that could have exited in the front because it was then too low in the chest cavity...somewhere around the junction of the descending aorta or bronchus in the lungs. Lifton: Did you hear Humes say he could feel the bottom of it with his fingers? Jenkins: Yes, I did. <quote off> Add James Curtis Jenkins to the long list of witnesses the Pet Theorists must bash. I'm sorry but, the medical reports and WC testimony from Drs. Perry and Carrico, Parkland Memorial Hospital, cannot be interpreted in any other way than JFK having a serious respiratory emergency in his right lung known as a "tension pneumothorax", which could only have been brought on by a projectile entering his right pleural cavity. It also means, unfortunately, that your witness Jenkins was not telling the truth when he claimed he saw a probe pushing against an intact parietal pleural membrane on the right side of JFK's chest cavity. It is only an inch or slightly more from the outside skin of the human back, at the level of the T3 vertebra, to the parietal membrane. Don't you find it rather miraculous that the projectile that entered JFK's back was able to open a wound track right up to this membrane, to which a probe could be inserted, yet the projectile never penetrated this membrane? It's about the thickness of a sheet of paper on a deer, and can easily be cut through with a knife. It's a shame you are either unwilling or unable to comprehend medical evidence, Cliff. Perry and Carrico basically told us everything we need to know about the back wound, yet you continue to ignore them. Or are they prevaricators too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Ron, The whole room was buzzing with people. I doubt very much that Sibert and O'Neill kept any kind of comprehensive list. To suggest Lipsey wasn't there is ridiculous. Yes, Lipsey was there the whole time, while Sibert and O'Neill compiled their list. They just couldn't see him, no military in the room at all, they said categorically just FBI, SS, and medical personnel in the room, except when Wehle popped in once. Oh how ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) The HSCA report on the medical evidence says that the HSCA's own investigation led to their locating two additional witnesses to the autopsy beyond those mentioned in the Sibert/O'Neill report. These two witnesses were Richard Lipsey and Sam Bird. Anyone assuming their investigation to have been in error should first find out what it entailed. As it is, we have no reason to believe it was in error, IMO. There is certainly more reason to believe Lipsey--who never sought attention--than someone like Audrey Bell--whose latter-day recollections made little sense. Edited September 23, 2016 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 The HSCA report on the medical evidence says that the HSCA's own investigation led to their locating two additional witnesses to the autopsy beyond those mentioned in the Sibert/O'Neill report. These two witnesses were Richard Lipsey and Sam Bird. Anyone assuming their investigation to have been in error should first find out what it entailed. As it is, we have no reason to believe it was in error, IMO. There is certainly more reason to believe Lipsey--who never sought attention--than someone like Audrey Bell--whose latter-day recollections made little sense. I looked at the online editions of the HSCA report and could find no link relating to the autopsy. I went to the report on the Mary Ferrell site and searched the document for "Lipsey." There were "no results found." If you could be more specific on where the info on Lipsey is found, it would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) Can I ask a question? In prepping the list of people who were there, did SIbert and ONeil walk about the room with their credentials exposed and jackets pulled open showing their handguns? Did they then approach each and every person who was there and demand to know their names and then prove who they were? And did they then repeat that process as people entered later? These two lowly FBI agents were going to do that with the top brass from the Pentagon? Edited September 23, 2016 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) Can I ask a question? In prepping the list of people who were there, did SIbert and ONeil walk about the room with their credentials exposed and jackets pulled open showing their handguns? Did they then approach each and every person who was there and demand to know their names and then prove who they were? And did they then repeat that process as people entered later? These two lowly FBI agents were going to do that with the top brass from the Pentagon? I have no idea how they compiled the list. But since these two lowly FBI agents were to prepare a report for J. Edgar Hoover, I would imagine they didn't take their task lightly, and didn't want Hoover to ask them anything later like, "Curtis LeMay was there and you didn't see him?" With their statement that only FBI, SS, and medical personnel were present, they were flat-out lying to Hoover? Edited September 23, 2016 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Ron: If you think Hoover really gave a FF about what happened to President Kennedy, then you should ask yourself why he was at the racetrack the next day. Think he was going through that list between his two dollar bets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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