Witnesses to LHO' posession of the MC rifle

[B. A. Copeland]

On 2/13/2017 at 8:48 PM, Paul Trejo said:

LHO wanted to commemorate his murder of General Walker -- a fascist in his eyes, and in the eyes of George De Mohrenschildt.  However, George De Mohrenschildt didn't actually envision the death of General Walker, only the conversion of LHO from his quasi-Marxism.  So, after George DM heard his wife describe the rifle on Saturday 13 April 1963 inside LHO's Neeley Street apartment around 10 pm, the De Mohrenschildt's left the Oswalds that night, and never saw them again for the rest of their lives.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Wait....for the record Paul, do you believe, beyond reasonable doubt, that Oswald fired at Walker? Even against the evidence that others were involved with that event?

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Wait....for the record Paul, do you believe, beyond reasonable doubt, that Oswald fired at Walker? Even against the evidence that others were involved with that event?

B.A. Copeland,

I am confident that Oswald was involved directly in the Walker shooting, just as I am certain that Oswald acted with others.

There was a car involved, and Oswald didn't drive.

Also, a different rifle could have been used.

But Oswald was there ..

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 23, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[B. A. Copeland]

On 2/13/2017 at 8:48 PM, Paul Trejo said:

LHO wanted to commemorate his murder of General Walker

Ahh I see and could you either direct me or summarize the evidence that shows, to any degree, that he was there? There were also two witnesses, if I am not mistaken, who said that the shooter was not Oswald, please correct me if I am wrong. I don't wish to derail this topic so I won't respond in this topic to your response, should you choose to respond and thank you for the response regardless.

[Paul Trejo]

41 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Ah, I see.   And could you either direct me or summarize the evidence that shows, to any degree, that he was there? There were also two witnesses, if I am not mistaken, who said that the shooter was not Oswald, please correct me if I am wrong. I don't wish to derail this topic so I won't respond in this topic to your response, should you choose to respond and thank you for the response regardless.

B.A. Copeland,

The doctrine that Oswald was never at the General Walker shooting of April 10, 1963, is largely fomented by the CIA-did-it CTers who first and foremost throw Marina Oswald overboard, in order to make room for their fantasy fictions.

Only by throwing Marina Oswald overboard can we even begin to doubt the historical fact that Oswald was present at the Walker shooting.  There is no other way.  

My point should be clear.  The sworn testimony by Marina Oswald is our first and most firm evidence that Oswald was at the Walker shooting.

Secondly we have the anecdotal evidence of George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, who also supplied sworn WC testimony.

Thirdly we have the anecdotal evidence of George DeMohrenschildt's final manuscript, I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy! (1977) which he wrote before he blew his brains out, rather than confront the HSCA with the sorry truth -- that he had personally participated in the Walker shooting, as an unwitting encourager.

Fourthly we have the anecdotal evidence of Volkmar Schmidt, who can be seen today on YouTube, confessing his own minor role in the Walker shooting, there in the Frontline video (ca. 1995) "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?"

Given the sworn testimony, we also have the Backyard Photographs, which IMHO Oswald created at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall at the same time, and using the same photo equipment, that he used to create his Fake ID for Alek J. Hidell.

Then there were Oswald's photographs of Walker's house.

So, you see, if we accept Marina Oswald's sworn testimony, then all the rest falls into place.  Otherwise, one is open to fantasy fictions of all sorts.  That's my position.

Now -- you dimly recall that two witnesses say that Oswald was not there at Walker's shooting.  That's incorrect.  There were two boys, but only one was an eye-witness, and he merely said that he could not get a good glimpse of the faces of the men who ran away.  But there were two men who ran away -- a driver and a passenger.  (There was also a second car, and a second driver, but the boy could not determine if they were all together, since this was a Church parking lot, and there were lots of cars in the parking lot for the evening service.)

This question is still on topic for this thread -- because the witnesses to the WC rifle included Marina, and the two DeMohrenschildts, but evidently did not include the two boys at the scene of the Walker shooting.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 23, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

16 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

B.A. Copeland,

The doctrine that Oswald was never at the General Walker shooting of April 10, 1963, is largely fomented by the CIA-did-it CTers who first and foremost throw Marina Oswald.....

......................

This question is still on topic for this thread -- because the witnesses to the WC rifle included Marina, and the two DeMohrenschildts, but evidently did not include the two boys at the scene of the Walker shooting.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

To be sure, George De Mohrenschildt DID NOT see the rifle.

-----------------------
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.

Jeanne De Mohrenschildt testified that Marina showed her the rifle but Marina never confirmed this in her testimony, and that could have easily been clarified.

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

 

[B. A. Copeland]

31 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

B.A. Copeland,

The doctrine that Oswald was never at the General Walker shooting of April 10, 1963, is largely fomented by the CIA-did-it CTers who first and foremost throw Marina Oswald overboard, in order to make room for their fantasy fictions.

Only by throwing Marina Oswald overboard can we even begin to doubt the historical fact that Oswald was present at the Walker shooting.  There is no other way.  

My point should be clear.  The sworn testimony by Marina Oswald is our first and most firm evidence that Oswald was at the Walker shooting.

Secondly we have the anecdotal evidence of George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, who also supplied sworn WC testimony.

Thirdly we have the anecdotal evidence of George DeMohrenschildt's final manuscript, I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy! (1977) which he wrote before he blew his brains out, rather than confront the HSCA with the sorry truth -- that he had personally participated in the Walker shooting, as an unwitting encourager.

Fourthly we have the anecdotal evidence of Volkmar Schmidt, who can be seen today on YouTube, confessing his own minor role in the Walker shooting, there in the Frontline video (ca. 1995) "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?"

Given the sworn testimony, we also have the Backyard Photographs, which IMHO Oswald created at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall at the same time, and using the same photo equipment, that he used to create his Fake ID for Alek J. Hidell.

Then there were Oswald's photographs of Walker's house.

So, you see, if we accept Marina Oswald's sworn testimony, then all the rest falls into place.  Otherwise, one is open to fantasy fictions of all sorts.  That's my position.

Now -- you dimly recall that two witnesses say that Oswald was not there at Walker's shooting.  That's incorrect.  There were two boys, but only one was an eye-witness, and he merely said that he could not get a good glimpse of the faces of the men who ran away.  But there were two men who ran away -- a driver and a passenger.  (There was also a second car, and a second driver, but the boy could not determine if they were all together, since this was a Church parking lot, and there were lots of cars in the parking lot for the evening service.)

This question is still on topic for this thread -- because the witnesses to the WC rifle included Marina, and the two DeMohrenschildts, but evidently did not include the two boys at the scene of the Walker shooting.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Thanks Paul.

[Paul Trejo]

12 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

To be sure, George De Mohrenschildt DID NOT see the rifle.

-----------------------
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.

Jeanne De Mohrenschildt testified that Marina showed her the rifle but Marina never confirmed this in her testimony, and that could have easily been clarified.

Cheers,

Michael  

Michael,

I didn't say that George De Mohrenschildt saw the rifle -- I said he was a witness -- in this case, an ear witness.  That is, when his wife, Jeanne De Mohrenschildt saw Oswald's rifle, she let out a shriek and shouted out, "George, he has a rifle!"

This was George's great fear -- and was the real reason that George and Jeanne paid the Oswald's a visit after 10pm on April 13, 1963, banging on their door to wake them up.  They were worried for three days since the Walker shooting, that Oswald might be the shooter.   They could hardly sleep.   So, they decided to hunt for the rifle.  Jeanne found it.

The key is the Walker shooting -- George and Jeanne knew they were involved up to their necks, because they, along with Volkmar Schmidt and various other young Dallas liberals, would encourage Oswald to hate and despise Walker, calling him "General Fokker" and warning Oswald that Walker was "as bad as Hitler."

George knew it in his bones.  He didn't have to see the rifle.  Hearing it from Jeanne was bad enough.  His heart sank.  Then, after JFK was killed and Oswald was killed, George was never the same.  He had this horrible dark secret that he carried with him for the rest of his life -- until he finally took his own life.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 23, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Trejo]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

My overall impressions from reading this rather convincing document are:

1. Buell Frazier lied about Oswald taking a long bag to work.
2. Buell Frazier made it clear that the bag was too small for a rifle to fit.

I cannot figure out why BWF would intentionally do something that incriminates Oswald, and in the same breath try to un-incriminate him.

Okay, having given it some thought, I did think of one possibility: Maybe Oswald actually did take a 2 ft. bag to work. And that fact came out in early interrogations. The authorities picked up on it and decided that that would have been a way Oswald got the rifle into the TSBD. They hadn't found a bag (or they did find Oswald's bag and saw it was too short), so they made their own bag and claimed it was Oswald's, and that they had found it the day of the assassination.

Seems reasonable. But why did Oswald lie about the curtain rods and bag when interrogated?

Also, all the windows already had rods and curtains. Does anybody really believe that Oswald would be replacing the rods?

Which brings me back to the very beginning, that BWF must have lied about this. It's a vicious cycle.

Sandy,

Regarding the article by Ian Griggs, The Paper Bag that Never Was," I have very different impressions.   

First, Griggs is correct to say that the paper bag was never recovered, and had to be forged by the FBI and Warren Commission.   I believe that entirely.

Secondly, however, Griggs is mistaken to jump to the conclusion that LHO never took a paper bag from the Paine garage to Frazier's car, and then towards the TSBD.   He is guilty of one-sided thinking.   Griggs thinks that if the FBI had to forge the paper bag, then they must have paid off Wesley Buell Frazier to say it existed.  Nonsense.

Here are my overall impressions:

1. Buell Frazier told the truth about Oswald taking a long bag to work.
2. Buell Frazier lied when he said that the bag was too small for a rifle to fit.
3. This was because Frazier saw clearly that the WC was ready to hang Frazier for knowingly transporting the murder weapon.

This explains why (i) BWF would incriminate Oswald -- he was only telling the truth; and (ii) then try to un-incriminate Oswald, because unless he un-incriminated Oswald about the size of the paper bag, BWF would end up incriminating himself as an accomplice to murder.

By the way -- the reason that the FBI never found the paper bag was because LHO handed it to a third party before he ever entered the TSBD.  I am still trying to guess whether that was Loran Hall, Roscoe White, Larry Howard, or some member of Interpen or some Cuban refugee -- somebody on Guy Banister's team that Oswald trusted.

That paper bag ended up on the floorboard of somebody's car.  So, of course it would never be found.

Next Sandy, you ask: "why did Oswald lie about the curtain rods and bag when interrogated?"  IMHO, we have no idea what Oswald said when he was interrogated, because there is no chain of evidence for the notes of that interrogation.   We have a mock-up produced by a group of people WEEKS after Oswald was killed at DPD headquarters.

Here's my theory.   BWF told the truth.   Gerry Patrick Hemming had called Oswald from Miami on 11/21/1963 and offered him double the price of his rifle if he brought it to the TSBD the next day.   Oswald thought this was in the context of Guy Banister's operation to kill Fidel Castro.  So, Oswald didn't suspect anything fishy, so he took the offer.   Oswald asked BWF for a ride on Thursday, and lied about the curtain rods.  That simple. 

As for what Oswald told Captain Will Fritz behind closed doors, we really have no idea.  My first hunch is that Oswald denied everything, willy nilly, without even thinking about it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 2/21/2017 at 2:30 PM, James DiEugenio said:

...My last reply to anything PT says.  And hopefully we can start an embargo of this blowhard.  

Maybe then he will go argue more about Hegel's pernicious influence on philosophy.

James,

Actually, I'm a longtime advocate for the genius of Hegel.  

One can read my posts going back 20 years on the Hegel List on Yahoo.com.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

On October 19, 2015, Paul Trejo wrote:

 

"George kept LHO busy in one room chatting, as Jeanne nervously searched for clues from room to room. When she finally found LHO's rifle, she shouted out -- "He has a rifle!"

They all went over to see what Jeanne was looking at. There was a nervous silence, and then George broke the silence with a joke, that was already on his mind: "Lee, did you take that pot shot on General Walker?"

There was an even more deafening silence. Lee looked at Marina, wondering if she had said anything -- and Marina looked at Lee, wondering if he had said anything. They were both puzzled, and then George burst out laughing! And then Marina laughed, and then Lee laughed. 

Jeanne didn't laugh, she told the WC, but George thought that she laughed, too.

Anyway, that was the end of the evening. The DM's said goodnight and they left -- and they never saw the Oswald's ever again."

 

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 21, 2015 by Paul Trejo

 

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Paul, you have been implying and stating that George De Mohrenschildt SAW the gun.

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Edited February 24, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

Paul Trejo wrote:

"George kept LHO busy in one room chatting, as Jeanne nervously searched for clues from room to room. When she finally found LHO's rifle, she shouted out -- "He has a rifle!"

----------------------

Marina was showing Jeanne around the apartment and opened the door to the closet, showing Jeanne the rifle. That's what testimony says. It may not have happened at all. Why create fiction out of potential fiction?

Paul, I don't know what to say.

[Mark Knight]

Mr. Trejo's theory is simple, really. George DeM saw it, but he didn't see it, he only heard Jeanne say there was a rifle. But he saw it, even though he only HEARD her say it was there.

Why is this so difficult to understand? He HEARD Jeanne SAY there was a rifle, so he witnessed the rifle, which means he saw it, even if he didn't actually see it.  There's no way to paint a clearer picture. Mr. Trejo has made it crystal clear.

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

On October 19, 2015, Paul Trejo wrote:

 

"George kept LHO busy in one room chatting, as Jeanne nervously searched for clues from room to room. When she finally found LHO's rifle, she shouted out -- "He has a rifle!"

They all went over to see what Jeanne was looking at. There was a nervous silence, and then George broke the silence with a joke, that was already on his mind: "Lee, did you take that pot shot on General Walker?"

There was an even more deafening silence. Lee looked at Marina, wondering if she had said anything -- and Marina looked at Lee, wondering if he had said anything. They were both puzzled, and then George burst out laughing! And then Marina laughed, and then Lee laughed. 

Jeanne didn't laugh, she told the WC, but George thought that she laughed, too.

Anyway, that was the end of the evening. The DM's said goodnight and they left -- and they never saw the Oswald's ever again."

 

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 21, 2015 by Paul Trejo

 

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Paul, you have been implying and stating that George De Mohrenschildt SAW the gun.

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Michael,

I retract that one sentence.   I meant it strictly within the context of the sworn WC testimony.   George DeMohrenschildt only HEARD from Jeanne that SHE saw Oswald's rifle in the other room.  She shouted it out, actually.  George's heart sank.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Mr. Trejo's theory is simple, really. George DeM saw it, but he didn't see it, he only heard Jeanne say there was a rifle. But he saw it, even though he only HEARD her say it was there.

Why is this so difficult to understand? He HEARD Jeanne SAY there was a rifle, so he witnessed the rifle, which means he saw it, even if he didn't actually see it.  There's no way to paint a clearer picture. Mr. Trejo has made it crystal clear.

Mark,

George DM did not actually see Oswald's rifle -- his wife Jeanne saw it in the other room, and shouted out that she was looking at Oswald's rifle.

George heard that Jeanne saw the rifle in the other room, and then he made a joke to Oswald about it.  That's in the WC testimony.  I'm repeating what's there, since some readers here have evidently not read the WC testimony.

If I erroneously suggested anywhere that George DM himself laid eyes on the rifle at that time, I retract that statement.   Jeanne DM saw it and shouted it out.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

9 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

I retract that one sentence.   I meant it strictly within the context of the sworn WC testimony.   George DeMohrenschildt only HEARD from Jeanne that SHE saw Oswald's rifle in the other room.  She shouted it out, actually.  George's heart sank.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, what about the prior drama, in the prior sentence:

"George kept LHO busy in one room chatting, as Jeanne nervously searched for clues from room to room. When she finally found LHO's rifle, she shouted out -- "He has a rifle!"

----------------------

Marina was showing Jeanne around the house. Jeanne wasn't sneaking around, playing detective while the other three were in the living room.

 

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?
Mr. JENNER. You say---
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Cheers,

Michael

Edited February 24, 2017 by Michael Clark